Overtraining...

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...or what is your body capable of?

On this forum I read many times about overtraining and that we should avoid it. Some people say that you can overtrain by training hard 6 days a week. (By hard training I mean a few hours in a gym or more or less serious martial arts school)
But not so long ago I looked through websites of muay thai schools in Thailand (planning to go there this summer). So... a standart training is... 4 hours in the morning and 4 hours in the afternoon (example http://www.muaythaiporpramuk.com/index.php?action=traning&laung=en). And everyone knows that a average skill level of thai boxers in Thailand is much higher than in other countries.
Another example. I needed money badly (before a party) one day. So I found an ad in a newspaper that loaders are needed for one day. The work was extremely hard (we had to carry crates ~ 40kgs each for 8 hours from one place to container). The thing is that some guys are working there 8 hours a day, 5 days a week. In fact, some of them have been working there for years. And they are really strong...

But I heard that some people say that training 2 hours a day, 6 days a week is already overtraining (if trainings are really hard). What is the problem here? Why it is so? Or maybe it is just related with improper nutrition? Or something else?
Discuss.

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Hmmm I train around 5 hours every day, 7 days a week. Basically I never take a break. And my body feels just fine. The only change that is happening to my body is that I'm getting stronger ^^

I don't believe that there's overtraning. You train as much as you can, that is, as much as your body can take. You set your own limits according to your physical and mental capabilities.

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If you are able to train for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week, then you are simply not training hard enough. When intensity is at the correct level, such duration of exertion is impossible.
Its like being pleased that you walked a marathon in 9 hours and seeing that as better than having run in it in 4

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Hmmm I train around 5 hours every day, 7 days a week. Basically I never take a break. And my body feels just fine. The only change that is happening to my body is that I'm getting stronger ^^

I don't believe that there's overtraning. You train as much as you can, that is, as much as your body can take. You set your own limits according to your physical and mental capabilities.

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Hmmm I train around 5 hours every day, 7 days a week. Basically I never take a break. And my body feels just fine. The only change that is happening to my body is that I'm getting stronger ^^

I don't believe that there's overtraning. You train as much as you can, that is, as much as your body can take. You set your own limits according to your physical and mental capabilities.

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don't believe that there's overtraning. You train as much as you can, that is, as much as your body can take. You set your own limits according to your physical and mental capabilities.

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Well dereck, 2-3 hours of weight lifting would make me a body builder, which I am not, nor want to be. I do all my weight lifting at home, I don't go to the gym for that.

I don't take time off though - I always train around 5 hours a day. For example, if I give up weight lifting on monday because my shoulders hurt a little bit, then those 1.5 hours that would be spent on weight lifting are spent on other things - I love doing abs, so mostly if I do not wanna lift weights, I do a lot more abs and other exercises. It's basically always 5 hours a day, and my body very rarely hurts after training. If it does hurt, then it's most probably the result of me straining a muscle, but usually my body doesn't hurt after training. The next day when I wake up, I have 100% of my strength back, and am ready for another 5 hours

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Well dereck, 2-3 hours of weight lifting would make me a body builder

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I don't take time off though - I always train around 5 hours a day.

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For example, if I give up weight lifting on monday because my shoulders hurt a little bit, then those 1.5 hours that would be spent on weight lifting are spent on other things - I love doing abs, so mostly if I do not wanna lift weights, I do a lot more abs and other exercises. It's basically always 5 hours a day, and my body very rarely hurts after training.

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The next day when I wake up, I have 100% of my strength back, and am ready for another 5 hours

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If you are able to train for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week, then you are simply not training hard enough. When intensity is at the correct level, such duration of exertion is impossible.
Its like being pleased that you walked a marathon in 9 hours and seeing that as better than having run in it in 4

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If your body does not hurt the next day at all whether you work with weights or martial arts training and you are always at a 100% then I question your intensity. I'm not trying to put you down and I don't know exactly what you are doing or how you train or what your goals are; plus your age if young may play an important factor in this. You don't necessarily have to "hurt" but there should be no way that you are 100%, your muscles cannot recover that fast. Perhaps you perceive they are 100% but they are not. Can you do the same weight lifting program the next day and still have the same results? Can you do this continually? If so then those are signs of lack of intensity.

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No it wouldnt. Bodybuilding style training carried out for over 60 mins is counterproductive to muscle growth. Most Pro level bodybuilders train no more than 45 mins per session, the rest of the time they spend resting the muscles to allow them to grow.

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And you fit in time with friends and family where exactly?

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Sorry, but no way in hell are you working at the correct intensity if the above quote is true.

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You see, if you allowed recovery into your life, you would experience improvement, ie. you would over time increase your strength, not merely be able to perform at the same level every day.

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If you are able to train for 5 hours a day, 7 days a week, then you are simply not training hard enough. When intensity is at the correct level, such duration of exertion is impossible.
Its like being pleased that you walked a marathon in 9 hours and seeing that as better than having run in it in 4

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I myself lift less weight though, but over a longer period of time, so I'm not counter productive, thankfully ^^

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oh good grief, where to begin?....

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My strength DID increase over time. I started with a lousy 3 kg (or so) of weight at the age of 15, and today I am at 15.5 kg in each hand (Soon increasing to 17 kg). So how can you say I am performing at the same level every day? I get stronger every single day, and every now and then I increase the weight I lift.

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I developed my own method of training. If I do 100 abs every day, I don't do 100 because it's my maximum, I do it because it's my method. I can do more, but if I power out myself to the max with abs, how will I do the other exercises? If I run for 2 hours and kill myself from running, how do I do the rest of my training?

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Let me put this in a D&D context. When you role a character, and set out on a quest, you tend to have certain attributes that improve along the way right? So by beating a troll you might improve your melee stats, but not your mana, whilst spellcasting against a mage will increase your mana, but not your stamina. The point being that you dont use all your skills in any one given scenario, rather, are called upon to use them in a concentrated and specific action, and then benefit from this.

Your body is just like that. It simply cant improve all your attributes every day. You need to focus, with high intensity on one 'troll' at a time, let the body improve in the aftermath, and face another foe the next day that will test another of your attributes.

Life aint nothin but an adventure buddy

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oh good grief, where to begin?....

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What did I do wrong now?

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So, over 13 years you have increased the weight you use from 3kg to 15kg per hand.
With a properly balanced routine, I would have expected you to increase your weight many times more than this in 5-6 months, let alone 13 years. Also, you are using the same weight for all movements, and only working your upper body with weights. You are seriously doing things badly wrong. i say this not to be mean, but because all your determination and hardwork is being wasted, and I think thats a real shame. Before you get defensive, please understand that I want to help you, not criticise without contructive purpose. I started training people professionaly when you were 7 years old, so if you want to at least entertain the idea of a new approach, then i may be able to point you in the right direction.

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I think you should read a bit better. I've been training for 13 years total, and I already said (multiple times, if I recall) that I have been lifting weights for 5-6 years. I'm 21 years old, started training at the age of 8, trained 13 years, 5-6 of which I have been lifting weights, I started lifting them at the age of 15

I don't intend to get defensive, don't worry, I take it as constructive criticism, I know I don't know everything about training, so whatever help you can offer me, you're more than welcome to do so

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Let me put this in a D&D context. When you role a character, and set out on a quest, you tend to have certain attributes that improve along the way right? So by beating a troll you might improve your melee stats, but not your mana, whilst spellcasting against a mage will increase your mana, but not your stamina. The point being that you dont use all your skills in any one given scenario, rather, are called upon to use them in a concentrated and specific action, and then benefit from this.

Your body is just like that. It simply cant improve all your attributes every day. You need to focus, with high intensity on one 'troll' at a time, let the body improve in the aftermath, and face another foe the next day that will test another of your attributes.

Life aint nothin but an adventure buddy

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I don't play that much D&D but I am pretty sure there's no mana there

Also, thank you for the advice

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You said most of your exercises are done with your arms but I hope I'm misreading this and you work our whole body including your legs? As well the amount of ab exercises is most certainly overboard and yes, working with weights will be more beneficial for results plus not stealing that excise time away from you.

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Actually, I do exercise legs a lot too. Running helps me a lot there, as well as a lot of cardiovascular exercises, plus others. I train my legs and my arms, in other words, the *entire* body, not just parts of it.

Also, dereck, thank you for sharing this all with me. However, I just wanna clear up the weight lifting thing - I know very well that I could lift MUCH more with some other exercises, and I do know some people who can show me how to to turn the 17kg into 38kg, as you said. However, this would build a lot of muscle mass, which I want to avoid. You see, the reason why I lift only 15.5 atm and work out with weights for 1.5 hours is because I don't wanna increase my weight. To achieve that purpose, I lift less, but for a longer time. This way, I don't increase muscle mass, but still build a lot of strength, which is my goal.

I also know what you mean when you say I should pay more attention to people around me, and I do know this. I have a little cousin, she's 11 years old now, and she adores me, always hugs me when I visit etc, and I love spending time with her, she's a load of fun But it's like I said, my relatives live abroad and I see them only rarely, but I always love to see them.

I realize that, with professional help, I could do a *lot* more when it comes to weights, I know a guy who can show me how to do it, he has his own gym, so that's no problem. But I don't want professional work out, I wanna lift less because I don't want muscle mass.

I will do abs with weights, I wanted to start that but just never remembered to try it. I did do it quite some times, and I always loved it. It's an excellent workout.

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We all have our own goals and I wish you the best in your endeavors. Out of curiosity, why don't you want to increase your muscle mass? Is it due to you are trying to keep your weight in a category that you compete in? Or is it that you think that muscle mass will slow you down?

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Thank you Dereck, same to you

Basically yes, I believe it will slow me down. I want to keep my current weight and speed, but still build a lot of strength. I guess I am succeeding, according to what other people tell me. I guess you could say I want to have the best of both worlds

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As far as my friends go, I see them on weekends, where we just hang out and play some D&D since we all have time to spare.

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I don't play that much D&D

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'mana' is a term used in some roleplaying systems for magic power, that aside, it is the meaning of the analogy, not the terminology that is important.

Basically, you have ZERO idea of how the body works. Sorry, but its true. You say yourself that you have taught yourself, based on understandings created from your own perceptions. The trouble with that is that physiological reaction to training is counter-intuitive, ie. what feels like common sense, is often wrong.

There is a lot of work to get you on the right track, but lets start with 3 basic foundation statements that are true, and you will have to accept if you are to improve your training plan, and increase your improvement.

1. You improve when at rest, not when you are training
2. Strength and size both require use of heavy weights, yet are seperate and independant goals.
3. training the legs with weights is the most important aspect of conditioning for all power generation, and will not slow you one nanosecond.

These are not things that you would think of- that resting could make you fitter than training, that lifting heavy will not make you muscular, that strong legs will make you punch harder. Doesnt stop it all being absolutely true though.

If you can accept this, then your re-education has begun. If you cant, then you will remain one of the many thousands who's hard work will sadly never tap your true potential.

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Mad_dog: thanks I will do that Although you say you gained almost 3 kg of weight, but I myself haven't gained any weight whatsoever through my training, which was my goal.

But I'm open minded when it comes to learning from others. I guess you could teach me quite a few things when it comes to training, so by all means, please do If you can give me a link or something for better weight lifting exercises that won't increase muscle mass at all, I'll be sure to change my training and try to improve it.

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I developed my own method of training.

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Cord: I haven't taught myself, my dad taught me how to lift weights, and he has also been lifting weights for quite some time when he was young. As far as all other exercises go, I learned them from my TKD trainers mostly.

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The accuracy of response you get is dictated entirely by the acuracy of information you offer.

no disrespect to your Father, but there are plenty of people who lift weights for many years that do so ineficiently, or based on concepts of training that are either misguided from the outset, or outdated in relation to the continued increase in understanding of exercise science. Trust me, it is hard work to keep up with, and filter through, the research as it becomes available- probably one of the fastest moving branches of science we have.
As for TKD instructors, well as I have said previously, you wouldnt go to a sports scientist for MA instruction, and you shouldnt go to an MAist for reliable exercise advice.

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I also know that I improve when I rest, I know very well that the body becomes stronger during res, not training.

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So tell you what Cord, why don't you give me your training method and exercises, tell me how to lift weights, how much to lift, how much rest between reps, etc etc, basically give me a training method that you give to your clients, and I will do it, and change my routine. After all, I wanna learn more, I gotta learn some things by myself, but others I gotta learn from others.

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Bench press 35kg, 6 sets of 8 reps (I can lift way more than 35kg, but keeping it that way so I can do a lot of them)
Flat dumbell press, 6 sets of 8 reps, 17kg
Flat dumbell flys, 6 sets of 6 reps, 17 kg
Flat overhead dumbell, 6 sets of 6 reps, 17kg
Sitting dumbell curls, 6 sets of 6 reps, 17kg
Overhead tricpes extensions, 6 sets of 8 reps, 17 kg
Overhead dubmell press, 6 sets of8 reps, 17kg
The last exercise is a leg exercise with the same weight I use for bench presses, 35 kg, 6 sets of 8 reps, I put the bar on my shoulders (behind), and then do squats

As for cardio, I do other exercises with those, running, a lot of jumping, abs, push ups, I usually don't do a set number of those, and always try to do as much as I can, which is quite a lot in the end. I also stretch a lot, this is very important to me.

As for my MA training, atm I am not a member of any dojo, but will start training karate after xmas. I guess it will 1.5 hours of MA training every day, but if I can do more than 1.5 per day, I think I may do that. Usually around 30 minutes of MA exercises I do at home. Not a lot, but then again, with 1.5 hours each day, it's enough I think.

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I dont know many MA clubs that run multiple sessions 7 days a week, so again, when you find out what days you are to attend class let me know. Also, you are going to have to offset the cost of classes against that gym membership that, having seen your routine, you need desperately

That routine is awful. You are not doing anything for your back whatsoever, and this amount of anterior dominant work will destroy your posture and cause real health problems through muscle imbalance.

Can you confirm for me before I continue that you will be joining a gym, giving you access to wider range of facilities and in person assistance from qualified staff?

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Yes, I will be joining a gym soon after xmas.

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Also, could you explain why my workout is so bad please?

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I would like to lift weights and all, but I don't wanna gain muscle mass while doing it, so basically I want my body weight to remain the same. It's not that muscle mass is bad, but it's simply my personal preference to keep my weight as it is This is why I avoided the gym in the first place.

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just joining a gym will not by default make you big you doofus Its what you do in the gym that is important and determines your results.
To give you an idea, you will be dropping from 90 mins 7 days a week of lifting to 40 mins x3 times a week of lifting. Prepare for a culture shock

As for your cardio work, am I right that you sort of create 'exercise stew' with bits of cardio mixed in with bits and pieces of ab work and other things along the way to break up the time?
If so, that is now a thing of the past. Please clarify.

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Oh and btw Cord, I forgot to mention that I do weight lifting for my back too (which you said lacks). I accidentally left that one out.

I do 6 sets of 10 reps, with 35kg. I'm not sure what the exercises is called though. I basically put my feet at about shoulder width, holding the bar in both hands, lowering it close to the ground (but not on the ground), then pulling it all the way up to my chest, and repeat 10 times. My legs are not bent, they are straight. And of course, my upper body is bent forward, parallel with the floor.

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Oh btw, should I ask the instructor to basically show me exercises to increase my strength but not muscle mass or what? A tiny bit of muscle mass (1kg of gain or so) is ok, but I don't want more than that.

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There are no 'strength' exercises, and no 'size' exercises, its how you do any exercise that determines what result you gain from it. Also, dont get too hung up on your weight when you step on the scales- heavy lifting may well cause an increase in density of muscle over the first couple of months and also density of bones, but not 'size' of muscle, so any weight increase does not equate with increased 'bulk'. Besides, your body weight fluctuates up to 8lbs a day (3.5 kg) dependant on hydration and ingestion of food, so the scales really dont mean much anyway. Better to go with how you feel and how you look in the mirror.

You said previously that you do 1.5 hours of cardio, but that you 'break it up' with abs and stuff. Please be clearer on what you mean by this (tell me what you actually do would be the best).

We are getting there, but I really need you to be clear and complete in telling me what you do so I can put something together for you.

Mad Dog, I will have a look for you, but Bunny is a rebuild from the ground up, and with work and christmas, I am sure you appreciate that time is not easy to come by this month, so bear with me Off the top of my head, again, for someone purely looking for strength, you are training like a bodybuilder in regards to your resistance work. I will do what I can, when I can for you both.

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Mad Dog, I will have a look for you, but Bunny is a rebuild from the ground up, and with work and christmas, I am sure you appreciate that time is not easy to come by this month, so bear with me Off the top of my head, again, for someone purely looking for strength, you are training like a bodybuilder in regards to your resistance work. I will do what I can, when I can for you both.

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One last question - this kind of workout will increase my strength, but not my muscle mass right? If it increases muscle mass a bit that's quite ok by me, as long as I do some exercises that will make me lose body fat, and replace the lost fat by muscle mass

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dont get too hung up on your weight when you step on the scales- heavy lifting may well cause an increase in density of muscle over the first couple of months and also density of bones, but not 'size' of muscle, so any weight increase does not equate with increased 'bulk'. Besides, your body weight fluctuates up to 8lbs a day (3.5 kg) dependant on hydration and ingestion of food, so the scales really dont mean much anyway. Better to go with how you feel and how you look in the mirror.

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You know, besides the above info, even if you wanted to put on muscle, and trained and ate to do so on purpose, its a very difficult and slow process- its not like you pick up a barbell and start growing as you watch in the mirror!

Training for strength does not stimulate muscle hypertrophy as a direct response. If you look at a weightlifter in comparison to a bodybuilder, they are very different physiques, and weighlifters try and keep as light as possible in order to get better totals in competition, when its all about strength to weight ratio.

Muscle mass does not appear by accident, and in the unlikely event that it did, it is the easiest thing in the world to lose.

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The first question is about these exercises: dumbell snatch, power clean, squat push press. I am not really sure if am making them absolutely correctly, but I've been doing them for about 4 years (with gaps, though) and didn't have any injuries so far. I learnt them from a video, not completely by myself. Besides I keep increasing weight (almost every month in the beggining... now much slower). And I'd really like to continue performing them... In fact I can't even imagine weight training without them. These are really my favorite exercises.

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Another thing is... I'd really like to start doing plyometrics on a regular basis. I heard that some athletes add plyometric exercises to their weight training. If it's not a good choice, then I will probably do them in the morning before easier MA class.

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And the last question is. What about running, skipping, shadowboxing and bodyweight drills (sadly I don't have an access to the heavy bag right now... only in MA school which is quite far). When would you recommend me to do this stuff? Basically I can devote to my trainings about one hour in the morning and about 2 hours in the evening (except 3 evenings when I have MA classes and one day of a complete rest from any kind of physical activity).
Usually I do skipping right after weight training. Shadowboxing and running - only in the mornings. Also sometimes I add a few bodyweight exercises to my running program as well (only to interval training). Or sometimes I just do bodyweight drills at home instead of running.

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Monday
1). rest after sunday
2). MA

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Tuesday
1).light jog, shadowboxing, plyometrics (?)
2).MA

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Wednesday
1).Fartlek, shadowboxing
2).Weight training
-Squats 5x5 (can I make squat push press instead?)
-Weighted chins 5x5(hmm... I can't always add weight. Maybe I can do this exercise on a trainer with the same movement instead?)
-Skipping

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Thursday
1).Just light shadowboxing
2).Weight training
-Power Clean Press 5x5(afterall it involves part of the deadlift movement)
-Close grip bench 5x5

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Friday
1). not going to do anything before sparrings
2). MA (sparrings)

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Saturtday - REST

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Sunday
1). Interval running, bodyweight drills, shadowboxing
2).
Weight training
-Bench Press 5x5 (How about 3 repetitions on a flat and 2 on inclined?)
-Dumbell Snatch 3x5 (maybe at least 3 sets?)
-Glute/Ham Raise 5x5 (should I do it with heavy weight as well?)
-some skipping

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I got a question about this exercise routine you put up for me (and which I am thankful or). Can this exercise give me the best "bang for the buck", so to speak? Basically, will my strength be developing to its fullest with this routine?

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Oh btw Cord, how much weight should I lift though, when performing the exercises mentioned above? Or should I just experiment with it?

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When it comes to the weight you use, you need to use resistance that you can lift explosively, but with control, for 5 reps without burn out. You are looking to use what would be your 6 rep max for 5 reps, leaving one in the bank to prevent lactic acid build up- remember, you are not training your muscles per se, you are using the muscles to gain strength- there is a difference.

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