Karate master and student conversation...

Im an Ashihara Karateka, so my observations may not apply to a more traditional Karate. All our Katas are easily understandable and Bunkai is an essential part of learning the Kata. We're expected to know all attacks for a Kata.

The way I view Katas will of course be influenced by this. To me a Kata demonstrates the "perfect" way of fighting. It's used to train proper movement and technique, which then in turn may be executed in a faster and more simplistic manner, in a real fight.

Of course this will be different in other styles as Bunkai doesn't necessarily seem to be obligatory, so I can see why it may be less obvious why you actually do kata.

We allow a lot of contact where I train. Why would I give someone technique and allow them to use it on others with full force if they do not have the discipline or the respect for our traditions to learn forms? We freely admit that forms have little to do with how we fight, but they have alot to do with our practice as martial artists.

"We freely admit that forms have little to do with how we fight, but they have alot to do with our practice as martial artists."

If they have little to do with how you fight then why do them.
If your form practice has no functionality then you may as well be line dancing.

I don't remember writing that they had NO functionality. They just don't work like a fight. If you think any form works like fighting or sparring, even those that are designed to, you may someday be in for a rude awakening. If you don't believe it, try practicing only form and and spar with someone who practices fighting. Forms do teach a lot of useful basic skills involving striking ang blocking, the use of the body and power generation, etc.. You could read the post more carefully for other reasons to practice them.

I believe kata should be used primarily as a tool, and a practice, the purpose of which is to ultimately allow the student to reveal themselves to themselves.

The practicing of an art teaches us about others and it teaches us about ourselves. It is more like a window and a mirror. If we look through a window when it is sunny we see others . When it is dark we see our reflection.

Cool explanation! Thanks mate!

Galen,
Let me first say I'm not offended. In previous posts you talked about the attributes that a person can possibly gain by practicing Karate. A person can aspire to be a Fighter or develope qualities like character or virtue, not that they are mutally exclusive. I apologize if the comment is obtuse or too poetic. Karate is like a window/mirror in the sense that the art becomes a paradigm through which we view the images we percieve regarding other and ourselves. How people approach the puzzle and challenge of hard training tells you a bit about that person. We are able to see them the most clearly when we don't project our conditioned ieads of who they are onto them. If my window is clean (free of conditioned ideas and predjudice) I will have a clearer understanding of them and make fewer erronious assumptions. The window is lense through which I view life and others. It might also be called ones "Schemas"
The art only serves as a mirror if I choose to use it that way. I use the word mirror as a metaphor. It is a way by which we gain awareness about ourselves to clearly and more accurately "see" or understand who we are. Lets say a new BB comes to our school. As I observe him practice I become aware that his technique is quite good maybe even better than mine. Along with that might come a twinge of jelousy or envy. Now I can Blame and hate that person for coming to the school and even feel fear that I may lose some standing in my little community. No one may even now that is going on inside of me. I might not even know it. If I'm using my practice as a mirror I will follow those revelations as I become aware of them. The awareness give me the freedom to choose how I will respond to this persons arrival instead of reacting out of my petty fears conditioned by my past experiences. The Idea of gaining insight to our state of mind is not particular to the practice of karate. You see it in many arts, the goal being the exploration, integration, and expression of an individual alone and in community.

I have to say Mark, that is a great explaination of inner growth as it relates to kata/MA practice. Read it a few times, and each time added some windex to my mirror & window.

Heck, I just learn kata to help me learn how to fight.

you can get both aspects (the 'Do' and the 'Jutsu') of kata at once if you Zen task it.

I'll give it a shot Galen.

To the beginner kata offers balance,coordination,and focus. Once you understand the principles behind the movements you have the self defense of where to hit,how to hit,angle and direction of strikes.
Each move will show you a perfect defense to a specific attack,you can expand from there.
As I am discovering after several years of kata practice there is always something new to be learned from them.
I often see something new in them when watching others,I think to myself,"Hey! that looks just like this in that kata!" I get excited from it still.

Galen,
You are being annoyingly arguementative and I mean that in the best way possible.
You can deny the reasons I gave you and I could do the same for yours. But in the end it's not what you train or how you go about it,but if it can be effectively used to meet whatever purpose you are seeking,use it. Whether it be to look romantically pretty and gives you peace of mind or you could use it functionally for other things I stated.
Peace out brother.

I'll refer you to this.

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15832333/an/0/page/0#15832333

Galen,
Thanks for you thoughtful response. I have probabaly answered every question except the one you asked. Sorry in advance for the long answer. I don't feel like I can speak to the idea of kata alone as a tool. It exists as a part of an art, not the whole art. First let me start by saying that there are three things I never tell people.

1. You should get married.
2. You should have kids
3. You should practice Kata.



I’ve come to believe it’s best to let people make those decisions on their own. At the start of any endeavor it seems obvious enough that a person would know what they want but the longer I live the more I’m growing to believe that that is rarely the case. If that were the case we would simply determine our goal and move toward it or work backward from it creating a plan to achieve it. We all create for ourselves what can be referred to as a "compelling vision" or "compelling illusion" that inspires and motivates us to take action. Now the vision may have very little to do with reality but it can motivate us to take action. Of the 3 things I mentioned here are some of the compelling illusions that might go with them.

1. Cool I’ll get to have sex every day.
2. My kids will take care of me when I’m old.
3. Doing Karate (And Kata specifically) will make me
An untouchable fighting machine, the envy of every
man and the desire of every woman.


I apologize for going over the top a bit but I think you get my point. We all have ideas that motivate us at different times in our lives that give us a reason for getting out of bed in the morning. They may seem sensible or insane but they get us out of bed. Having said that I don’t encourage people to practice karate, or specifically Kata based systems is I don’t want to take the responsibility for crafting anyone’s vision but my own. At different stages of development it is natural for a person to practice "Magical thinking".
In childhood and adolescence it is natural and healthy. It may kind to point out the magician illusion to a child and say it is a trick but the child still thinks magically. As we develop our ideas should come more in line with reality as we mature. We diverge from reality at times when reality is too painful to bare. An example might be an oldman standing in a crowd of beautiful giggling coeds in a night class saying to himself "Yeah baby, I still got it". I have heard it said that our level of personal and spiritual development could be measured by how much reality we can see before turning away.
I think there is truth to that.

I’ll get to the question of kata specifically. Please be patient.

Even though I practice Karate and kata I’ll continue by saying that I don’t assume or believe that there are things available in it that are not available in other arts or venues. It simply doesn’t matter You may be in the Boy Scouts, Rock Climbing, or a knitting circle. I feel that practicing an art is about using that art to explore our worlds both inner and outer and ground us in relations and reality.

I feel I need to digress for a moment. I have many times in the last few days and weeks seen people use the word Mystical or Mysticism as a pejorative. Mysticism does not mean backward, uninformed or unscientific. It is a recognized and by many respected tradition in both eastern and western religious practices. In our exploration of the world and our place in it one of the things we are able to use is language. With that also come the limitations of language. There are times in the arts we practice and the lives we live words are unable to fully explain or express just what it is that happens in and to us. Historically even mythology being what it is "myth" has been used to express truth.

What we experience in practice and the personal growth that comes from it if there is any can be articulated in many ways. A person can use different words to explain the same concepts. Lets look at three.

1. The principle of Shuhari.
2. Psycho/social Development
3. Spiritual Formation.

Shuhari is made up of three Japanese words Shu Ha and Ri

Shu = To embrace tradition. This represents entering into a tradition or ryu
School or practice.

Ha= The mastering of the tradition and the techniques of the practice and

Ri= Transcendence of tradition or moving beyond.

In terms of methods that practice kata the mastery of them is just a part of that process of growth as experienced referred to as Shuhari. The growth takes place in the context and community of that art. It is experienced by the individual and recognized by those who have gone before. This again is not a reason to or an argument for the practice forms.
Forms are like a cereal, like Lucky Charms. They are part of a balanced diet and magically delicious. You don’t NEED to practice them at all. If one of a person's "Compelling illusions" is the desire to practice karate kata , have at it. On the other hand
If a Karateka is looking down their nose at a woman practicing the art of Quilting they are still missing the point.


The Role of Kata in Psycho/social Development and Spiritual Formation.

This is not intended to be a discussion of religion. The examples I will use are only to show that the process is similar regarding the growth towards a person’s maturity both in systems that are artistic, scientific or religious.

I’ll start by drawing on the work of M. Scott Peck in his book "Further Along the Road
Less Traveled" Peck describes a 4-stage process representing stages of Psychological or Spiritual maturity individuals. This is his list.

1. Chaotic / Antisocial
2. Formal /institutional
3. Skeptical/ Individual
4. Mystical/ Communal

Chaotic / Antisocial:
In this stage of development a persons life is often chaotic, disordered and even violent. They may feel they need something yet not know what it is.
They may feel threatened and seek out Martial arts to learn to Fight. If they enter a traditional school with an experienced teacher may begin sometimes for the first time in their lives to experience order and responsible discipline. In practicing Kata as part of that process a person that has or is living in ways that are antisocial ( not good for them or other) begins to conform to group behavior that establishes order. The mental and physical practice begins to provide benefits and the person begins to experience discipline as something of value instead of something onerous or as punishment. The student has reinforced for them the value of the practice. At this point they may think that the benefits are only to be found in the method they are participating in and become quite an obnoxious zealot.

Formal /Institutional:
In this period a person may begin to identify themselves with their art. I’m Shotokan,
I’m TKD. Again Forms are only part of the larger whole but at this point a practitioner may be a "company man" of sorts. The student "belongs" to or in this community He tows the line, works to maintain systems and doctrinal orthodoxy, martially speaking that is. He is asking and looking for the correct way. They seek out information from their teachers. At this point of growing power and understanding the individual is exposed to differing ideas and interpretation simply be the nature of their search for what is correct or true. This seeking for answers in kata and history leads to more questions.

Skeptical/ Individual:
In this period the students research and exposure causes them to see maybe for the first time some of the shortcomings of their system. This can cause disappointment and a cognitive dissonance when the student sees that what he once thought was the most formidable fighting system in the world is not foolproof or iron clad. This may also happen to be the period when the rose colored glasses fall off and they see their teacher as human. Many people will stop their practice at this point thinking it was all a sham when in fact it is entirely possible that no one ever lied to them it was just that their assumptions i.e. (Sex every night) were unrealistic. The external discipline from the previous stages, being internalized, serves as an internal locus of control to motivate and continue to learn without goading or reward. The other thing that is common is changing arts at this point. One philosopher refers to it as riding a donkey to your destination only to when reach your destination you dismount and get on another donkey and continue. The person identifies less with the group and works to make and find meaning. In this stage a person may sincerely be searching for their personal voice, practice, or way.


Mystical/ Communal:
In this stage the individual doesn’t think so much in terms of styles. They are able to see commonalties in diverse practices and people. There is less talk or concern in regard to "Us" or "Them" mine and your. There is a growing ability to see and experience the other as ourselves. With it and increase in compassion and empathy. The person having begun their journey as a frightened, dangerous, isolated individual is becoming a caring member of a community and world. That person has a connection with people living in their neighborhood and 19th century Okinawans that aren’t even alive but very present in what that created and contributed to the world. Earlier I spoke of the limitations of language. This is acknowledged and pointed at by Zen practitioners. Also by Lao Tzu.

We go out into the world trying to find our way. In doing so we begin to realize our way is not "the way". To paraphrase Lao Tzu, "The way that can be spoken of is not "The Way". In studying the arts we see a record of the paths others have traveled. As helpful as they are we are still left on our own to use the disciplines we prefer to create compelling illusions and visions filled with meaning and purpose until we no longer need them.

Oldman

I apologize most profoundly for not being able to respond to your post in the manner it deserves. I am at work and am left with limited time.

I will honor your post with the time it deserves over the week end, when time is less pressing.

Thank you for the effort, and I promise to give it the attention it obviously requires.

Kudos

Galen