Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu

Posted by: tomh777

Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/07/07 10:32 PM

For anyone who's interested here's a link discussing Toshishiro Obata and his creation of Aikibujutsu. Obata was the uchi deshi for Gozo Shioda for 8 years, and well respected in Yoshinkan before breaking away and forming his own style. As I've mentioned in previous posts Obata was my sensei's biggest influence. Even though many of you have done a pretty good job convincing me that I don't practice true aiki jutsu, you still might find the information regarding Obata's philosophy, curriculumn, etc, kind of interesting.

Peace
aiki-buken.com
Posted by: Ames

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/08/07 04:56 PM

From reading that webpage and the main page, it seems (without attending classes), that it's pretty decent Aikido, with a big emphasis on weapons. I don't really see it as Daito Ryu though, but then again they don't directly call it Daito Ryu. The techniques of Yoshinkan were modified enough to make them Aikido and not Aikijujutsu. If this weren't so, Gozo Shioda wouldn't have called his art 'Yoshinkan Aikido'. I couldn't really figure out why Obata felt the need to change the name of his style from Aikido to 'Aikibujutsu'? Perhaps because of the inclusion of weapons techniques? Still there are other Yoshinkan sensei who have included weapons training at their dojo, but simply call those classes 'iaido', or 'jodo'. Kimeda Sensei in Toronto comes to mind.

Anyway, it's not like Obata is trying to say that his art is Daito Ryu.

The one thing is Tom, I didn't see any referance to Bagua or Muay Thai in there, and you were saying your sensei trains these arts and has included them in your curriculum. I'm wondering if teachers of this style (Aikibujutsu Tanren Kenkyukai) are allowed to cross train and alter the waza based on their new knowledge?

Chris
Posted by: tomh777

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/08/07 10:56 PM

Whether or not they are "allowed" to cross train I have no idea. Our dojo is not an authorized Aikibujutsu Tenren Kenkyukai. As I've searched my memory banks, in a video my sensei recorded about 10 years ago he also mentions influences such as Katsumi Niikura of Ryokyukai Aikido Tenchi Shin, British Jiu Jitsu (please forgive me but what is that(?), as well as several American sensei's I'm not familiar with. Either way, Shakoor speaks extremely highly of Obata. When I finally picked up a copy of Obata's book, "Samurai Aiki Jutsu (out of print), and the DVD of the same name, I had an "Aha" experience and said to myself, "So that's what I do."(minus the Muay Thai strikes and Tai Chi blocks of course). When I have a chance I'm going to review Shakoors video tape to see if anyone recognizes any of the names of his influences that I don't. On a whole different note...for crying out loud!! This board is addictive! I don't have time for all these discussions . But seriously, this is great discussion and I feel like I'm getting a real education. Because when it comes to martial arts I really am just a

Peace
Posted by: sandan

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 07:10 AM

Not many people seem to now of Obata and how much influence he's had in the martial atrs world, he's a modern day samuri. there used to be a magazine in the uk a few years ago written by a Karateka turned actor Terry o'neil which focused on Aikido a great deal. it had an article where Obata cut into a Samuri helmet with a sword made the traditional way.He's also in many movies.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 07:19 AM

Quote:

, British Jiu Jitsu (please forgive me but what is that(?),
Peace




Do you mean Baritsu by any chance?
Posted by: tomh777

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 06:48 PM

Nope,

My instructor don't got no training in bar art...But seriously, I looked at the tape, and the reference was to "British Martial Arts" that had influenced Professor Florendo Visitacion in his development of Vee Jitsu Te. With all my ranting and raving about Obata, in the video tape my sensei did about 10 years ago he doesn't even mention Obata. Now my next goal is to jump over to the Judo/Ju Jitsu board and ask questions about Florendo Visitacion and Moses Powell.

Peace.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 07:01 PM

Quote:

Now my next goal is to jump over to the Judo/Ju Jitsu board and ask questions about Florendo Visitacion




Better to go to the Filipino board to ask about Visitacion, although he did study Jujutsu from Wally Jay (Small Circle) and Kiyose Nakae. However, his first art was Arnis and this informs the style the most. He also trained Mongolian Wrestling and Chinese IMA (internal martial arts), as well as others I can't remember now. Had a friend who briefly studied this style before he moved. Seems like a pretty interesting method. Didn't hear of any direct Aiki study in it though.

Prizefighter: I thought Bartitsu died out a long time ago?
Posted by: tomh777

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 08:30 PM

Thanks for the info. This search for just what the heck am I studying anyway is getting interesting. Maybe I'll actually have time to work out one of these days and actually ask my sensei this stuff. By the way I did a brief web search regardin baritsu and it appears that baritsu is a fictional martial art spoken of in Sherlock Holmes novels.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 08:44 PM

It is as far as I know, but was the only "British Ju Jitsu" that I knew of. I think there have been several books recently published about it though.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 08:44 PM

Nope it was a real martial art. One of the first eccletic martial arts which blended east and west traditions:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bartitsu

http://www.bartitsu.org/

In the case of 'British Jiu-jitsu' it probably refers to a society or association such as:

http://www.bjjagb.com/

Quote:

Thanks for the info. This search for just what the heck am I studying anyway is getting interesting. Maybe I'll actually have time to work out one of these days and actually ask my sensei this stuff




Things I would ask him are: With all the arts thrown in the mix, what is it about what he does that makes it 'Aiki' enough to use that prefix? Also what amount of time did he spend learning a tradional Aiki system and what rank did he acheive? And what did he feel was lacking in his tradional training to make him leave his teacher and create a new martial art?

And something I would ask yourself: Do you really want to seriously pursue the study of Aiki, or are you looking to become the toughest guy on the street (not that the two are exclusive of each other)?
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 09:04 PM

My bad here, I put down "Baritsu" instread of "Bartitsu". One letter makes all the difference!
Posted by: tomh777

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/09/07 10:08 PM

Quote:

Things I would ask him are: With all the arts thrown in the mix, what is it about what he does that makes it 'Aiki' enough to use that prefix? Also what amount of time did he spend learning a tradional Aiki system and what rank did he acheive? And what did he feel was lacking in his tradional training to make him leave his teacher and create a new martial art?




The syllabus is clearly aikido/aiki justsu...The techniques we use are identical 1st control, 2nd control, 3rd control, shiho nage, kote gaeshi, tenchi nage, etc (we usually just use the english transalation...usage of tenkan, usage of sword techniques based on toyama ryu, etc, etc. It's been years since I've asked him about his rankings. I believe he has a rokudan in jiu jutsu (don't remember which style), sandan in judo. Regarding the aiki arts I've long since forgotten. Due to his work with police, and in the social services system (my field as well), he has become less and less impressed with traditional techniques that leave the defender dead in street situations. for myself, I've been doing martial arts in some form or another for over 12 years, I'm in my 40's...but I actually started in 1970 in judo at the age of 9 and competed at the state level in judo so I've seen a few things in martials over the years. I'm not interested in being a bad a--. But I am interested in coming home alive from my job each night. And besides I like the artistic, meditative, calming effects of the martial arts as well

I'm signing off
Peace
Posted by: Ames

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/10/07 03:56 AM

It sounds like you've found the right place for you, and that's great.

I do however disagree that tradional arts will "leave you dead in the streets". I've used Daito Ryu several times in my work as a doorman, and it's yet to fail me. But that's me and I'm not saying that everyone would have the same experiance. In the end, the art you study has to suit your mindset. And you have to beleive that it will work, trust it. If not, then you don't have a chance, no matter what you study.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/10/07 08:05 AM

Quote:

It sounds like you've found the right place for you, and that's great.

I do however disagree that tradional arts will "leave you dead in the streets". I've used Daito Ryu several times in my work as a doorman, and it's yet to fail me. But that's me and I'm not saying that everyone would have the same experiance. In the end, the art you study has to suit your mindset. And you have to beleive that it will work, trust it. If not, then you don't have a chance, no matter what you study.




Have to agree with this. Traditional arts can be effective. I made a post about different learning habits on forums a while back. Basically different people learn things better when taught things in different ways.

My Aikido Sensei was a doorman for 23 years in Northern Ireland, during the "bad old days", and he is still in one piece.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Toshishiro Obata and Aiki Jutsu - 03/10/07 07:23 PM

Quote:

Basically different people learn things better when taught things in different ways.




I agree Prizewriter. I know that for a long time when I went to a 'live' environment, I would fall back to more reptillian responses to what my opponent was throwing at me. It's only VERY recently that I can go into a live environment (non-prearranged) and remember those things I've learned. I still practice waza 99% of the time. And I will for the next five years or so, then I'll drop down to 90% of the time on waza. I've found that it's important to internalize the practice before putting it into a randori or shiai environment. Other arts are diffirent, no better or worse, and seem to have less of a learning curve. In the end, whatever method you choose should prepare you for 'the street'. But there is a difference in what you do there.