Ki Aikido

I attended the Aikido class last night; I thoroughly enjoyed it! It was taught by a young-ish man and woman, out of Scottsdale (Arizona Ki Society under Kirk Fowler). We started out with some basic warm up techniques, then spent the remainder of the class on the first Taigi, (each technique in isolation) which included some Kokyu Nage and Shihonage. I feel that my experience in Karate (which included much ukemi, nage, kansetsu, and other grappling) is going to aid me in Aikido training, although it is still very new. In karate, one should always move from the hara and place focus in the tanden, but one night of Aikido taught me a lot more about this. It makes sense to me to view Aikido training as a means to develop a better mind-body connection, and ki sensitivity. It is budo in the purest sense. I suppose it's martial merit depends on the teacher, but this doesn't really concern me at this point, my karate training gives me the necessary skills for self-preservation.

I had the pleasure of attending a seminar about two months ago from one of Tohei's uchi deshi. He talked about, well, alot of things, but what it means to attain certain Ki Aikido ranks, and what is expected of you. Fascinating stuff. Without getting too far off topic, sensei talked about having a profound gratitude for your teachers. Tohei sensei definitely learned a ton from Ueshiba sensei, but never found alot of meaning for himself in Ueshiba's explanations, about being one's body being filled with the divine kami and the like. He started looking more and more at what O Sensei did, and less of what he said. It became obvious to Tohei that O Sensei had great ki-but it was Tempu Nakamura sensei who helped to bridge that gap for Tohei. After studying at the Tempu-kai, Tohei reevaluated aikido arts in terms of ki, to what I guess could be said as profound results.

So anyway, I would argue that Nakamura sensei has had as much an impact on Ki Aikido as O Sensei. In order to hold a rank in Aikido in Ki Society, you have to have a ki ranking. Which sucks for me because I'm up for a ki test here in a couple of months! I much prefer the aikido tests .

But I've had the opportunity to work with Fowler sensei on a few breif occasions, and found him to be insightful and very helpful. I've also met some pretty cool people from Arizona Ki Society, I think from the Pheonix area but I can't really remember. But good luck with the Ki Aikido classes. Hit me up and I'll send you the link to the University Ki Aikido club that I recently graduated from. Fun stuff!

Joe

Hi Joe,

See, this is what I don't get. Why would ki need to be developed and ranked separately? Surely, it is part and parcel of ai-ki-do? i.e. ki is not a separate entity from the "structure" in which aiki techniques are applied, well not unless you're doing jujitsu techniques in an aikido forum?

So, what's involved in a "ki" test?

same not getting it here. having ki separated from ai-ki-do is like having bread seprated thom a toast. and the word combination "ki aikido" sounds for me like "toast with bread". if you do aikido, you do both the ai and the ki at the same time, and both of them combine in budo.

Yes, the name Ki Aikido struck me as odd, being a budo-ka and famliar with the Japanese language. Sort of like saying "te karate." Then again, the actual name of the style is Shin Shin Toitsu Kai as I understand it, so "Ki Aikido" may be more of a nickname for the sake of ease.

At any rate, I feel that Aikido is going to make a great addition to my training; i've been searching patiently, albeit tediously, for an opportunity to take on a new path. While (most) karate, be it Okinawan or Japanese, has budo undertones and "higher" goals for training, it still has a self-preservation paradigm, striving fundamentally to develop necessary physical skills. I, for one, am a firm believer in the holistic and esoteric benefits of any classical MA training, but Aikido seems to be a wonderful and well-suited path in to the more spiritual side of Budo lifestyle.

Hi eyrie-

The name "Ki Aikido" is not, as I'm sure you know, technically the name of the style-it is a western moniker that emphasizes that, according to Ki Society anyway, we emphasize Ki more than other styles, or at least initially we did, which was one of many ideological and political differences between Tohei and, well, Aikikai I'm sure.

The Japanese name is Shin Shin Toitsu Aikido, or Aikido with Mind and Body Coordinated- a rather lengthy and uncatchy name if I may say so myself. So even if Ki Aikido sounds a bit like toast with bread, I think it was a smart move IMO.

The style of Japanese yoga that Tohei studied under Nakamura Tempu sensei is called Shin Shin Toitsu Do. Look familiar? The ki tests that we do in Ki Society are as far as I can tell the same tests that they do in Shin Shin Toitsu Do, though undoubtedly Tohei put a bit of his own twist (as a 10th dan aikidoka) on the situation. So, like I said, a young inspiring aikidoka in Ki Society has to pass Ki tests to qualify for aikido ranking, but one could climb up the ki ranking system without ever stepping foot in an aikido class, though I doubt that happens very often but it probably has.

I don't have time to get into ki tests very much right now, but if you're interested search Nakamura sensei, Shin Shin Toitsu Do, Japanese yoga, or consult K. Tohei's Ki in Daily Life. Or I bet they have something here: http://www.ki-society.com/english/
And they would be WAY more qualified to explain the subject than me .

Joe

Come on Joe, you should realize by now I'm not asking for "information".

I want to know what you as a sometime practitioner of the art thinks. I want to know what YOU know. Not the info blurb on some website.

Big difference between "information" and "knowledge"....

I believe Tohei emphisized the study of Ki seperately was because he felt people were doing Aikido without using any Ki, and to help them understand what it is and how to include it in their Aikido practice.
He took his understanding of Aikido, and tried to relay it to others from his perspective. Not only was he a 10th Dan, but maybe more importantly the Chief Instructor under O-Sensei, a title based on his technique, not politics.
No one understood O-Sensei's explinations of how he did technique, or what he was doing - he related it all to Shinto Gods and virtually spoke in tongues.

When I was exposed to them Ki tests were given in the context of Aikido movements, and finishes to techniques. They are to make sure you are relaxed, on balance and cenetered as you move and do Aikido.

The Ki Society may have moved them outside the context of Aikido by now, but I doubt it.


Tohei did create a lot of animosity when he left the Aikikai, and many of his senior students from Japan left him to go independent. This drives a lot of opinions from people who never met or practiced with him. O-Sensei did appoint him Chief Instructor and 10th dan on ability. While the Doshu was left with the family business, I have never heard anyone refer to him as a great aikido practicioner. Just that he helped systematize his fathers works and create a structured program.

Tohei's work was innovative and most resembled O-Sensei's Aikido at the end of his life. He tried to demystify the whole concept of ki - read some of his books, particularly Ki in Daily Life and tell me who else even attempted this in the Aikido world. Other prefer O-Sensei's Aikido from earlier stages of his life, and that is fine. My feeling is that it is less evolved.

You should learn about Ki by practicing Aikido. But you could practice Ju Jitsu for 30 years and probably figure it out as well. Since it is difficult, and Tohei thought necessary, he decided to start teching about it from day 1 - also revolutionary.

I'm just curious, that's why I'm asking. I'm not disputing Tohei's technical abilities, but rather his understanding. And since I haven't experienced any Ki Society training, I'm merely asking why the separation, since to me ki is an integral part of aikido movement itself.

According to Stan Pranin, Tohei became Head Instructor at Hombu in 1956, long after O'Sensei had retired to Iwama in 1942, at the start of the war, and had left the day to day running of the Hombu dojo to his son. Also, according to Pranin, Tohei's 10th dan was awarded shortly after for various political reasons - mainly because others had been graded to 9th and it did not politically behove the Hombu Head Instructor to have the same rank.

Truth be known, you can learn about ki thru other means, not necessarily aikido, which is probably the same reasoning Tohei took in separating the ki development parts out of O'Sensei's aikido.

Just questioning why he felt it ncessary to do so. But since I can't ask him, I'm asking you folks that do shin shin toitsu.

As far as attempts to demystify ki goes, perhaps you Ki Society folks could enlighten me, what is ki then?

OK Eyrie, I will give it a shot...

You seem to be hung up on the seperation of Ki exercises from the Aikido practice, but they are really intertwined. If you are missing something in a technique a good way to address it is to just practice that component, think of the Ki exercises as that for your Aikido in general. They are a way of focusing on proper Aikido principles - to make sure your Aikido feels right, that you are moving correctly, and that you feel what it is like to be on balance, centered, weight low etc. You could also look at it as a way to help you understand how you should feel when doing Aikido. As components of Aikido they fit into many techniques at various stages. Ki Tests make sure you are doing them right.

On the 10th dan, I am sure politics were involved - they certainly are today across all organizations. Stan Pranin also featured Tohei on the cover of one of the later Aikido Journals and felt like the Aikido world needed to know who he was, and his importance in the Aikido world - especially since he had been written out of the Hombu history books, literally removed from subsequent editions of books written by the Doshu, Yamata.

When he left many rising 6th dans went with Tohei based on his ability, this undoubtably contributed to the rift and animosity. Much to Hombu's credit they have extended and olive branch to many of those instructors and an offer to re-affilliate.

Yes- Ki can be learned from other arts. My old Ju Jitsu instructor talked about it, but they started to 'reveal' it only after shodan. He did say study long enough - even in an external art and you should 'get it.' But if I am interested in Aikido why not learn about it in that context?One of my Aikido instructors now has about 30 years in the Chinese arts along with over 35 on Aikido, his ki/chi doesn't change just because he changed uniform! But if you have access to someone who can explain things from a different perspective, and it connects for you - great. Sometimes you need a new view to connect the dots. Many people who make paradigm shifts do it from a view based on practices outside the organization they are in - Tohei and the yoga teacher.

My bias (just one man's opinion) probably comes from formerly being in the Ki Society. My instructor studied under both O-Sensei and Tohei. While he has since gone independent from Tohei, he has all the respect in the world for his Aikido, and he has seen and trained with all the later day Shihan. But don't get me wrong, Tohei is no saint, and the Ki Society is not perfect.

My recommendation to get and read some of Tohei's books still stands. The book of Ki was his original 'book' but it is summarized in Ki in Daily Life. One of his former Chief Instructors Koretoshi Muriyama has an organization in Australia (a split from the Ki Society)- I think it is Aikido Yuishinkai, I am sure they can be more informative about Ki exercises (we still do them). Not sure if they still do Ki Tests in their curricula (we don't). But they could certainly give you some 'hands on' experience. It would be a lot better than my explination. I know Muriyama tours Australia - I would ask him directly.

As a hachidan in jujitsu, and an Aikido player for the past 20 years, it has become abundantly clear to me that if you don't understand ki development, you have very little actual technique. Since all techniques are "breath and timing", it is extremely difficult to execute anything without either.

Prof. David Shaner was one of Tohei's deshis, and I have found his training and his students to be quite capable of doing Aikido with anyone. Sensei Fumio Toyoda was one of my good friends, and also one of Tohei's students, but the styles and teaching of both of these guys was very different.

In all areas of martial arts, I've found people who tried to be "spiritual" martial artists, "technical" martial artists, and "combat" martial artists. There's a piece of each of that in all of us, and how it's manifested to your students is the perception that "your style" portrays to them.

You can trust me when I say both these men knew their stuff, and clearly no one had better technique than Tohei, or Osensi wouldn't have made him chief instructor of the Hombu. At the level they were, it is not uncommon to see different teachers from the same school separate to diverse teachings of the same skills. It doesn't mean that Tohei knew less, just that he focused his training in a different area.

Just as I have favorite techniques, they might focus on irimi, or koshi-waza as the base set of skills for their students, and teach everything else around those skills. It is up to the sensei to determine how and what he is going to address to the students, and it will come from their understanding perspective to the students. Just as your view of the same technique is different from different places in the dojo, how teaching is given to the students is always something with a perspective.

I'd be a little careful, however, before I accused someone like Tohei of "not understanding Aikido". I'm sure Richard Petty didn't know everything that ever went on in his garage, but he won 200 races, and I'd be careful before I accused him of "not understanding racing". Osensei didn't give Tohei that 10th Dan because he disagreed with him.

I don't believe I "accused" anyone of anything. My exact words were, "I don't think...". It would be different if I had simply and declaratively stated "He did not....".

I think we've already covered the ground regarding Tohei's 10th dan...

Perhaps you could clarify what ki is? How is it developed? What specifically is being developed?

I don't think it is just simply "breath" and "timing".

Hi folks,

The rest of this thread regarding the subsequent discussion on ki and kokyu related stuff has been moved to a new topic.

Sorry for derailing this thread. If anyone has anything to add regarding Tohei and Ki No Kenkyukai/Shinshintoitsu Aikido etc. please add them here.

Thanks.

[Post moved to other thread]

Dear sir:

the founder of the nmsu club is on haitus, and the current instructors have backgrounds in aikikai.

The club may soon be rechartered as merely "nmsu aikido club".
-supposedly supposedly.

Sure, I'll add that I think it's a credit to Tohei's genius that he developed ki development exercises, which help to set the "baseline skillset"(that is being discussed on another aikido forum) from which to build aikido techniques on top of.

All of Tohei's uchi deishi's that I've worked with are so impressive and inspiring it is clear to me that he knew quite well what he was doing when he wanted to start teaching just "ki classes." Surely, ki can and is developed by strictly (and correctly)practicing aikido techniques, but why wait until shodan or whatever to start talking about it?

It is my misfortune that I will never be able to train directly under Koichi Tohei sensei, but we are all very fortunate to have Shinichi Tohei sensei. Unfortunately Shinichi doesn't travel outside of Japan a whole lot, but it sounds as if he might begin giving more and more aikido seminars outside of Japan. If you get a chance to attend a seminar by this remarkable man, you will not be disappointed.

Joe