cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz

Posted by: Ninjasaurus

cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 05/19/05 01:57 PM

my friend is a little shorter than me but hez twice my weight and he is a football player and pretty much when we wrestler if i go 4 his wristz i cant do nething and he grabz my armz and throwz me around like a ragdoll and only way i evar win is if i can squeeze out of his holdz and get behind him 2 choke him and that isnt aikido.

i tried all different aikido stuff and it nevar workz hez 2 strong and big and he doesnt just stand there letting me do the move, if i lower my center and try to get him off balance he just pushes me down or picks me up swingz me around by my arms.

he knows that i go for his wrists so he makes sure i dont move them when i grab them.

what should i do when i wrestle against him????????
Posted by: Shitokan

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 05/19/05 02:25 PM

Well all i can say is do what is practical and what works. i am almost 150 percent sure that there is something more that u could learn in akido that would help u. also try to incorperate techneques from other systems but stay true to your akido still ya c.
Posted by: KiDoHae

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 05/19/05 03:53 PM

IMHO, I suppose there are several lessons that you might draw from this. One is that wrist locks, which can be very effective, have there place. It is not that a lock, once applied will not be effective, is learning when you can do it effectively. There is a quantom leap from becoming proficient in the mechanics of technique practiced in the dojo and applying it successfully in the street.

For what it's worth, you should also go back and read your post to begin with. Does it seem like "wrestling" with a 240 lbd football player would allow you to effectively employ a range of aikido techniques? You could certainly find yourself in a real brawl with a big football player some day right? I doubt that in that situation he would willingly offer you his wrist in order for you to apply a wrist lock either.

No offense, but the techniques did not fail you, you have failed to see when they are to be proplerly used. I takes time to get this stuff.
Posted by: rupert

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 05/19/05 09:05 PM

First, be thankfull he is your friend. Second, at least you have something to go on - work on those chokes!
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 05/19/05 09:29 PM

Short answer: more practice

Longer answer:
1. Use his momentum
2. Get your timing and entry right
3. Do not use force against his force
4. Use feeling and sensitivity
5. MOVE
6. Draw and extend him out to get proper off-balance - understand and use the 12 points of kuzushi
7. Do not try to "wrestle" - see #3
8. Do not "try" to apply a technique - just move
9. Use atemi AND kuzushi
10. Maintain your own posture and stance

Chokes aren't aikido? They're in the Yoshinkan syllabus...
Posted by: Diga

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 05/24/05 01:29 AM

I understand what your situation is like.
The basic rule of thumb is - everything else being equal with any two people - the larger one wins.
So the balanceing act is in how much skill the smaller one has to equal or overcome the heavier one.

It is good that you have the idea of what will and what will not work. Some fools think that since they know something of the arts that they are capable of more than they really are.
Great to have a tough friend to keep you humble.

If you are working with arts for selfe defense then you would most likely be able to stay away or out run a situation like that.
If you are in the arts for point or contact fighting then stay in your weight group until you get more experience.
Posted by: nekogami13 V2.0

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 05/24/05 09:41 PM

I'm sorry to have to delete your post neko.... so far he has shown himself not to be on this forum, even if his posts have been somewhat immature on the other forums.

It is a legitimate issue though.... so your comment is somewhat out of line.

Ignatius
Posted by: BulldogTKD

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 05/25/05 02:11 AM

I agree with eyrie and I am a Tae Kwon Do guy but I have studied tai chi also and it seems that you are using a linier approach to this match up where you are at a huge disadvantage. Circles big or small let him come to you and use his movements against him. He knows what you plan to do so let him make a mistake and change you tactics and stop trying so hard, loosen up and free your mind and let it happen.

If a joint lock on the wrists fails you then try a finger lock or lock an elbow. I have used these techniques on big guys and they tap out very fast. Pinkie locks are the best.
Posted by: fightclub

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 06/25/05 12:22 PM

Hi there. It is not surprising that your joint locks do not work effectively against a larger person. This is one of the reasons why some later Aikido styles were modified. There are other times when these moves are ineffective like when a policeman tries to bend a druggies wrists they feel no pain b/c they are so high.
Also if you wait until the person has locked their hold on you then your timing is off and you can't afford to waste time trying to bend their wrist.

I would not rely on wrist twisting for self defense unless i knew it would be effective. Aikido has some good points, but keep in mind that initially it is not slef defense oriented, it is mostly forms that lead into defensive attacks later on.
When I started out in Aikido I was once attacked by a suspect who we caught in our store, and when I went to lock the door until the police came, he basically exploded with fists of fury from the side(i was stupid enough to leave myself exposed). Anyway, I did not use anything "Aikido" on him, my friends just pushed some carts into him, and that ended the attack. Honestly, I never felt Aikido helped me in a real life situation, at least not at that level. I now study KRAV MAGA, a highly effective combat style. It's simple, economical self defense, that is effective. You don't waste energy trying to "flow" and bend with your opponent, you simply take natrual, instinctive moves and learn to scientifically apply them in a direct aggressive manner. I have only trained for a year, and i feel so confident, that I do not invite violence.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/26/05 01:56 AM

fightclub,

Quote:


It is not surprising that your joint locks do not work effectively against a larger person. This is one of the reasons why some later Aikido styles were modified. There are other times when these moves are ineffective like when a policeman tries to bend a druggies wrists they feel no pain b/c they are so high. Also if you wait until the person has locked their hold on you then your timing is off and you can't afford to waste time trying to bend their wrist.




Are you saying that because joint locks do not work effectively against a larger person they were modified by some aikido styles? What, other than personal anecdotal evidence, do you have for making such a claim? Which styles? How were they modified?

I had a big burly policeman (senior constable) turn up to my class on Friday, wanting to do aikido lessons. For his benefit, I demonstrated a few simple joint locks (nikyo and sankyo) which I quite effortlessly applied on him, from a really strong grab. Several times, I either dropped him to the ground instantly, or got him up onto his toes, quite easily - without the need for applying undue pain compliance. And seeing I was about half a head shorter than him, and about 40kg lighter, let's just say, he was wide-eyed and paying very close attention for the remainder of the lesson.

Joint locks work - if you know how. Most people think it's a wrist technique. It's not. If you don't know how to lock the wrist, elbow, shoulder, and center all at once, then of course they're not effective. Well, actually, it's not that the lock is ineffective, but your execution of the technique is not effective.

Quote:


I would not rely on wrist twisting for self defense unless i knew it would be effective. Aikido has some good points, but keep in mind that initially it is not slef defense oriented, it is mostly forms that lead into defensive attacks later on.



I'm curious, how long did you do aikido for, and to what level? I've been doing it for 15+ years and the more I do it, the more self-defense oriented I see it is. Bearing in mind that "self-defense" does not necessarily mean "kicking the other guy's a$$".

Quote:


I now study KRAV MAGA, a highly effective combat style. It's simple, economical self defense, that is effective. You don't waste energy trying to "flow" and bend with your opponent, you simply take natrual, instinctive moves and learn to scientifically apply them in a direct aggressive manner. I have only trained for a year, and i feel so confident, that I do not invite violence.




Whilst I do not disagree than Krav is a simple, economical and effective method of H2H combat, I disagree with your analysis. The strategy and tactics of Krav are very different to aikido. But it does not make aikido less simple, economical or effective. It's a totally different methodology, and you are comparing apples to oranges.

I also don't see how one "wastes energy trying to flow and blend".

Can you please explain to me, how you arrived at this conclusion? I'm just really intrigued.
Posted by: ta_kuan_dao

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/26/05 10:07 AM

Aikido can be very effective in SD. But it takes lots of training and is a pretty complex art.
Posted by: katsuhayai05

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 06/27/05 08:50 PM

First you should use atemi in setting up your techniques. You do not neccasarily have to strike him but merely distract him maybe pinching, digging a knuckle inside his ribs, etc. Second remember good kuzushi. Also follow through with yoru technique and remained centered but yielding. If he pushes you and your centered and you fall over you have failed to blend wit that energy. You are probably letting your ego get in your way of applying the principles of aikido. Remember everything doesn't happen like in the dojo make it work for yourself.
Posted by: fightclub

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/29/05 08:40 PM

Hello eyerie.

I did study Yoseikan aikido for 3 years. That hardly makes me an expert, but then i also learned a lot. In that system, at least under the quality intructor i had, we did not do self defense so much as learn the basics. this involved turning the body, and learning how to apply the different locks, twists etc.

I am not suggesting that these moves never work, but that they don't work effectively under certain conditions, or at least that the probability of their effectiveness is lessened by larger, stronger people, who can resist you, drugged individuals who feel little pain, very experienced fighters etc.

In a real life combat situation, it is very messy, explosive, and fast. Your opponent is not static. He is moving, trying to harm you, and is pumped up. It would take a very high level of skill to use such moves in this case. My claims are based on experience, my teacher's lessons, and the feedback of police that he taught.

Yes, Aikido has been modified by some of Ueshiba's students. that is how Yoseikan came about. Minoru Mochizuki , the founder of the system, modified some aspects to meet the challenges of modern arts like SAVATE, and BOXING. It is a style that is akin to AIKI JU JUTSU. The Aikikai style of Aikido that is taught today, with very soft motions, is NOT the way it was supposed to be taught.

Uesheba attained to his level after a lifetime of hard, physically rigorous practice of kendo, jujutsu, etc.

All I'm saying is that for self defense, you don't want to gamble with a tool that is probably not going to work.

In Aikido demos, the attacker is usually not that aggressive, and he knows how to roll and fall. Also he is usually co-operative and does what he is expected to do. This may look very lovely, but it is not for real. Sorry, that's just the way it is. If I'm going to attack you, I'm not just going to let you grab me, or turn me the way you want, we may end up in a clinch, and go to the ground. If I get the upper hand i'm going to pummel you. But these are the things that you don't see in Aikido. It's too controlled.

Believe me, I loved Aikdo with my life. I thought it was THE ULTIMATE martial art. And to be honest I still respect it, and I still think that it has some good things. But i would not depend on it for my life in a street battle.

Why go through the motions to try and execute 4 or 5 moves for one technique to control your opponent, when you can do it in TWO??? Do you really want to give your enemy who might kill you that kind of time and oppotunity??? I hope not.

Krav Maga is a scientific martial art. It gets the job done. And while it may not have all the trappings of choreography and finesse that Aikido has, it WORKS!

In 3 years of Aikido, I couldn't defend myself with what I learned...oh sure I could use those moves in a controled setting, but I don't think a real life fight would be won with Aikdo alone.

I agree that Aikido has noble intentions, but it is not realisitic. Your mugger, or your girlfriend's rapist does not want to be your friend. Evil must be restrained, but sometimes it has to be beaten into submission, or you or your loved one will die.

I must stress that as a Krav practioner, I don't feel cocky, or pick fights. I'm not paranoid, or aggressive. I feel confident, and would try to solve a problem and not fight. But if I HAD TO fight, I feel that I could survive.

Anyway, welcome your feedback.
Posted by: katsuhayai05

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/29/05 10:17 PM

Aikido is just as realistic as any martial art. The only problem is that most of the styles and their teachers have dilluted it into mere meditative practices or "self improvement arts" much like kendo and a lot of tai chi styles. To make Aikido work you have to be willing to train hard but you must also see it in a realistic manner. You have to teest your skills in different situations and learn how to actually move. Most styles of aikido teach defenses that are too long and flowery to actually work. My suggestion would be to work on making those movements into the shortest most economical ways possible. Proper knowledge of Aikido from what I've seen is much more devastating than what I have seen krav maga practitioners doing, not that I'm bashing the style it does dependn on the person
Posted by: KiDoHae

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 06/29/05 10:36 PM

Quote:

I would not rely on wrist twisting for self defense unless i knew it would be effective.



For what it's worth, a few short comments. This is less about aikido as a system, as it is about the use of small joint locks. I am not an aikido practitioner but a student of it's cousin - hapkido.

The use of wrist locks, are not necessarily used for "self defense" in the pure sense, but often also as "pain compliance" techniques. That may seem like a subtle distinction. Personally, there is a fundemental difference that reflects a mindset for their appropriate application.

As they are often viewed as "gee wiz" stuff they tend to get a disproportionate amount of attention. Perhaps even within aikido itself, although the art is much broader than that.

This has come up on the forums often so several months ago I went through my hapkido BB requirements and counted the number of "wrist locks" I had been taught and had to be proficient at. It also important to understand that the "wrist lock" was actually the end product of a complete technique. These amounted to a grand total of about 30. This was only about 10% of over 300 required techniques that included throws, various weapons defenses and ground work to name a few. The "wrist locks" themselves were primarily trained as counters to grabbing attacks which, when properly understood, means that the attacker has made himself vulnerble to a locking counter - amongst many other defensive actions. As with any other technique in a martial arts repretoire they have their time and place.

As a lapsed aikidoka and now a practitoner of KM I'm certain that you view your aikido training differently. We grow when we view the things we're taught critically which is how we find out what works for each of us as individuls or not. It is, after all, a personal journey.

I certainly can't begin to explain why after three years aikido training it 'did not work for you'....but I can say that I have heard the same thing about karate, judo, etc., etc. For each person that a given art may not work for, I can probably find 50 people for whom it does work just fine. This is by no means a criticism, that's just the way it is.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/29/05 10:45 PM

fightclub,

You asked for feedback, so can I submit the following observations and comments (in good faith of course!)?

1. You have the best of 3 worlds in Yoseikan budo. Mochizuki Snr was a direct student of Kano, Funakoshi and Ueshiba, and as a result, Yoseikan, reflects the philosophy, principles and techniques of all 3 pioneers.

2. You say you did 3 years of Yoseikan, but you do not mention your total budo experience. It is said that it takes at least 10 years to master the basics of any martial art. Thereafter, it becomes refinement of the basics to the level where it becomes subtlely natural movement.

3. I agree that techniques will not work effectively under certain conditions, and that there will be degrees of effectiveness depending on the multitude of variables in a confrontation. This is partly due to the focus on "making a technique work", usually under conditions that are not naturally suited for that particular application.

The whole purpose of training and practice is to increase one's level of experience in applying technique effectively under a specific set of conditions. Therefore, it becomes the role of the uke to provide that set of conditions to constantly push your boundaries.

4. I do not disagree with your analysis of a combat situation. However, can I say that with practice comes experience, with experience ability, with ability effectiveness. This is called "skill" or "gong-fu".

5. Nothing is new under the sun. Can I suggest that Mochizuki Snr did not modify anything, but merely consolidated the principles and techniques from the arts that he had learnt. Therefore, the more you learn and the more you know, the better equipped you are to deal with a broader spectrum of situations and scenarios.

6. Whilst I agree that a lot of what passes of as "aikido" today is far from desirable, I strongly disagree with your criticism of its "teaching methods". I teach both kids and adults aikido. Whilst it is extremely easy to apply techniques with force, it teaches the practioner nothing of the use of footwork, body alignment, use of center, relaxed extension, etc. etc. etc. So to say that "soft motions...is NOT the way it was supposed to be taught", is at best a perspective born of limited experience and ignorance of the art.

7. I submit that the self-defense applications in aikido are not immediately apparent to the casual observer or to students who have not yet mastered the basics. However, self-defence isn't about "stand and fight", which is usually the course of last resort.

8. Aikido demos have nothing to do with training practice and applied ability. You are associating a demo situation with a confrontational situation. Not the same thing. The emotive content is totally different. A demo is exactly that - a display of the suggestive potentiality of applied aikido. A confrontation IS applied aikido. Two different things.

None of my students are co-operative to say the least, yet, I have the ability to manipulate their center and apply techniques. Most of the time they have no idea what I'm going to do, how I do it or if they are going to roll or do a face plant, until the last moment. Of course it doesn't look pretty - for them.

Quote:

If I'm going to attack you, I'm not just going to let you grab me, or turn me the way you want, we may end up in a clinch, and go to the ground. If I get the upper hand i'm going to pummel you. But these are the things that you don't see in Aikido. It's too controlled.



9. I would suggest that you have not yet begun to scratch the surface of aikido if you believe that aikido should be a "ground and pound" style.

Quote:

Why go through the motions to try and execute 4 or 5 moves for one technique to control your opponent, when you can do it in TWO??? Do you really want to give your enemy who might kill you that kind of time and oppotunity??? I hope not.



10. Again, this is a shallow analysis based on limited experience and surface level of understanding of the art.

11. Again, I do not disagree that Krav (as taught and used by the IDF) is a scientific art and "gets the job done". So is jujitsu. You are belabouring the point. This is not an argument as to which art is better (or which is the "ultimate" art). The topic is about not being ble to apply aikido techniques to someone who has a significant size, weight and strength advantage.

If you are suggesting "take them to the ground and finish them", I would love to see how you handle someone bigger, heavier and stronger than you. On the ground, the bigger person will win. It doesn't matter whether they know anything or not. All they have to do is sit on you.
Posted by: Ubermint

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/30/05 12:29 AM

Quote:


If you are suggesting "take them to the ground and finish them", I would love to see how you handle someone bigger, heavier and stronger than you. On the ground, the bigger person will win. It doesn't matter whether they know anything or not. All they have to do is sit on you.



That...is possibly the most ignorant opinon of groundfighting i've ever heard.

I am 150 pounds and can go tap for tap with guys literally twice my size on the mat, and i'm nothing special at all.

I've seen my coach, at approx. 160# tap out champion collegiate wrestlers.

Of course there's also many hours of footage showing skilled groundfighters beating fatasses.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/30/05 01:03 AM

Thank you! My point exactly!

My ignorant opinions don't count. Skill and experience do.
Posted by: Chanters

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/30/05 08:03 AM

I find it very difficult practising with a partner who does not know aikido.

1. I don't think they'd appreciate atemi to the face or know how to protect themselves against one.

2. The surroundings in which you might be would not be suitable to be throwing someone.

3. Why would you want to slam your friend into the ground particularly if they do not know how to breakfall safely?

I believe you'd lose many friends if you went ahead and tried applying an aikido technique on them.

I've tried practicing my techniques in the back garden with my boyfriend who does judo but I don't want to ram my fist or palm of my hand into his face to take his balance and focus and I don't want to throw him into the floor. Wrist or other joint applications just hurt him too much. Call me soft but I don't have the heart to inflict pain on my friends or loved ones!

Quote:

he knows that i go for his wrists so he makes sure i dont move them when i grab them.



You shouldn't be grabbing anything. You need to make sure you take balance and keep your opponent off balance whilst executing the technique.

In conclusion, I think it is potentially too dangerous to apply an aikido technique on an non threatening individual. I believe aikido is only effective against a real threat as you're less likely to mind executing atemi and throwing them into the ground.

Chanters
Posted by: fightclub

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/30/05 03:42 PM

Thanks for your response.

Yes, I agree with much of your response.

I was thinking about it more, and I realized I was making a perhaps undue comparison with Krav and Aikido.

To be fair, Aikido is a powerful martail art. I remember doing really aggressive bear hugs on the sensi's wife during practice, and her escapes were so effective, i just couldn't believe it.

Also my Sensei, at the time, could make me fall to the ground without even a seeming touch! And his leg locks were like an iron vice.

How do you know about Aikido Yoseikan?

I perhaps jumped to conclusions too fast.

I respect your knowledge, and welcome your input more.

Always good to learn. I learned for three years, and I had a great teacher. I did do some Judo and Karate in the Yosekian Budo system. Had I continued, I would have seen more, and understood more.
I think Yoseikan Aikido is fairly realistic. As I understand it, Mochizuki Sensei did add some more elements like Karate kicks, and punches to make the system more combat effective. And of course he included lots of Judo elements.

When my teacher first viewed Aikido, he said that it looked like martial choreography, but Mochizuki sensei told him, "Don't worry, THIS Aikido is different" meaning more combat effective.

if you go to the Aiki News website you can read about Sensi Patrick Auge, and the interview with him. He talks about these things. He was an Uchi deshi for 7 years in Japan under Mochizuki's tutilege.

Aikdo more devestating than KRAV??? Are you sure? Maybe in a Steven Segal movie! haha.

Peace.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/30/05 08:58 PM

I only know what I know [about Yoseikan] from what I read.

Who says there are no kicks and punches in aikido? What is uke doing, if not how to punch, kick, grab? If uke does not learn/know how to attack properly (and by extension, how to protect themselves thru ukemi), how can they provide tori with the necessary "input" to perform a technique?

Like I said, Mochizuki did not add anything that didn't already exist. He simply changed the focus of practice to be all inclusive, rather than segregated. Such is the danger in any martial art, because the art has to seek a balance between imparting universal principles and that of enlarging the technical repertoire.

According to the Founder, aikido is a matter of life and death. Train it as such. As for being more "devastating" than Krav, I'm not sure that is the philosophical intent underpinning the principles of the art, although I'm pretty sure it can be, if one intends to use it for that purpose.
Posted by: katsuhayai05

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 06/30/05 11:18 PM

I tapped a 250 lb strong male out at 160 lb. He was heaiver , stronger, and had fighting experience albeit not ground fighting but none the less the defies saying that just because he is this and that much bigger stronger then me groudn fighting is just like stand up fighting technicality and finese win over brute force.
Posted by: Intrepidinv1

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 07/01/05 03:44 PM

You bring up a problem that would be there no matter what your style was. Wrestling, boxing, whatever. Size and strength does matter. Although, as some have mentioned I have seen smaller BJJ guys beat bigger ones on numerous occasions. I have studied a lot of martial arts for over 20 years and have some practical experience. Aikido has many practical aspects but it has to be used in the right application. Any martial art should be practiced in a manner to prepare for real resisting opponents. The concepts are there and maybe a little harder to apply then some martial arts. The founder of Aikido stated that in combat, Atemi (striking) was 70% and technique was 30. That is something to think about when applying Aikido to a violent encounter. I think I'm going to continue to study Aikido to dig out the concepts that I can apply to combat but I wouldn't highly recommend to a beginner looking for practical self defense. Aikido is more mentally challenging then some arts. But it's not your hard core combat unless you blend in other styles and striking techniques. You have to be able to flow from one system to another depending on the combat situation. I've used Aikido principles numerous times in real fights, I know they can work. But I've fell back on grappling and striking too! Bruce Lee was talking about blending arts, grappling, striking before all this MMA started. He was way ahead of his time. Study it all!
Posted by: Ubermint

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 07/01/05 05:49 PM

Am I the only person who thinks that maybe this person should learn some legitimate ground grappling?
Posted by: KiDoHae

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 07/01/05 09:50 PM

I don't think you're the only one.

There a few different ineteresting discussions going on.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/01/05 10:41 PM

Quote:

Am I the only person who thinks that maybe this person should learn some legitimate ground grappling?



Each martial art is based on specific strategies and areas of specialization. The reasons for this being one of strategic combative engagement philosophy and teaching expediency. Otherwise, it would take a lifetime to learn the unlimited range of possible human movement, and another lifetime to master it.

Groundfighting is a distinct and worthwhile skillset to add to one's repertoire. However, let me qualify that IMVHO, Aikido is NOT based on a groundfighting paradigm or strategy, unlike BJJ or various styles of JJ which specialized in ground techniques. This is purely my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong.

Whilst some Aikido principles *can be* used in a groundfighting situation, it lacks a sufficient technical repertoire which would allow effective application against a skilled groundfighter, particularly one with a size and weight advantage - without having to resort to the use of atemi and other instinctual tactics that would otherwise be illegal in a legitimate groundfight bounded by specific rules of engagement.

Having said that, by all means, add groundfighting techniques to your repertoire. However, I would counter by saying that once you have acquired the *right attitude* and reasonable skills in Aikido, one has no need to resort to additional tactics for the ground. I say this because the strategy of Aikido requires one to be (standing) in the right place at the right time, so that you are not taken to the ground.

Of course we can surmise all the "what ifs" ad nauseum, so if you happen to be taken to the ground, then you had better quickly get up on your feet!

In other words, first focus on mastery of what the art provides in terms of its philosophy, strategy and technical repertoire and you have no need for others, although, additional knowledge and skill in other areas of specialization would not hurt either.
Posted by: katsuhayai05

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 07/02/05 10:05 PM

I have practiced Aikido for 4 years. I've also wrestled for 1 year. The reason ... is because I agree without at least fundamental knowledge of ground fighting your finished. The principles of Aikido can also still be applied on the ground it's just not normally seen that way.
Posted by: Ubermint

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/03/05 07:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Am I the only person who thinks that maybe this person should learn some legitimate ground grappling?



Each martial art is based on specific strategies and areas of specialization. The reasons for this being one of strategic combative engagement philosophy and teaching expediency. Otherwise, it would take a lifetime to learn the unlimited range of possible human movement, and another lifetime to master it.

Groundfighting is a distinct and worthwhile skillset to add to one's repertoire. However, let me qualify that IMVHO, Aikido is NOT based on a groundfighting paradigm or strategy, unlike BJJ or various styles of JJ which specialized in ground techniques. This is purely my opinion and I reserve the right to be wrong.
Whilst some Aikido principles *can be* used in a groundfighting situation, it lacks a sufficient technical repertoire which would allow effective application against a skilled groundfighter, particularly one with a size and weight advantage




Quote:

- without having to resort to the use of atemi and other instinctual tactics that would otherwise be illegal in a legitimate groundfight bounded by specific rules of engagement.

Having said that, by all means, add groundfighting techniques to your repertoire. However, I would counter by saying that once you have acquired the *right attitude* and reasonable skills in Aikido, one has no need to resort to additional tactics for the ground. I say this because the strategy of Aikido requires one to be (standing) in the right place at the right time, so that you are not taken to the ground.



But here you seem to be saying that with Aikido you will never be taken down, which is obviously false.

Quote:


Of course we can surmise all the "what ifs" ad nauseum, so if you happen to be taken to the ground, then you had better quickly get up on your feet!



Yes, but what if you're under side control? After a takedown, you go immediately to a controlling position.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/03/05 07:48 PM

You are making a broad generalization here and drawing a flawed conclusion.

Note I said, "reasonable skill". I guess this begs the question, what is "reasonable"?

In my experience, it is hard to takedown someone with 8-10 years continuous training. Even harder still if you can grab and take hold of someone with 15-30 years experience.

Like I said, we can debate all the "what if" scenarios we like, the bottomline is it depends on one's skill level, ability and experience - and that of your opponent (other variables remaining constant of course).
Posted by: Ubermint

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/04/05 04:59 PM

It's going to be hard (but still doable) to take down someone with 15 years experience in anything. That doesn't make it an efficient use of time for learning shot defense.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/04/05 09:01 PM

That would be stating the obvious.

There are many potential aiki responses to a shot. Sprawling is not one of them. Some involve sutemi, some involve tenkan, and some are plain ol' fashioned atemi and drive their face into the ground.

But having said that, I reiterate my earlier statement. Aikido is NOT a groundfighting paradigm - in fact, it is not even a "fighting" paradigm. Therefore, an aikidoka worth their salt is NOT going to take the encounter to the ground and is going to prevent a groundfighter from doing so. The groundfighter has to cover the range, get inside the aikidoka's space and remove their base.

We're just debating in circles.... Aikido is NOT a groundfighting paradigm, so any argument involving "what if", "aikido", "wrestling" and "groundfighting" is moot.
Posted by: katsuhayai05

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/06/05 02:03 AM

Quote:

That would be stating the obvious.

There are many potential aiki responses to a shot. Sprawling is not one of them. Some involve sutemi, some involve tenkan, and some are plain ol' fashioned atemi and drive their face into the ground.

But having said that, I reiterate my earlier statement. Aikido is NOT a groundfighting paradigm - in fact, it is not even a "fighting" paradigm. Therefore, an aikidoka worth their salt is NOT going to take the encounter to the ground and is going to prevent a groundfighter from doing so. The groundfighter has to cover the range, get inside the aikidoka's space and remove their base.

We're just debating in circles.... Aikido is NOT a groundfighting paradigm, so any argument involving "what if", "aikido", "wrestling" and "groundfighting" is moot.



The groundfighter whose trying to steal your wallet so he can eat doesn't care about what "paradigms" you trained in while your cornered against that wall. Just a thought. In addition anyone who is serious about defense should know their enemy so why wouldn't a sensible self defense pracitioner especially in Aikido not expose himself to potential knowledge of someone who may attack them.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/06/05 04:13 AM

I sound like a broken record. Go back and read my earlier posts, especially the part about adding groundfighting to your repertoire.
Posted by: fightclub

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/15/05 06:53 PM

I think Aikido can be devestating if the assailant is in a position to have his joints or limbs broken. However, I know this is not the intention of the aikidoka per se. Aikido seeks to bring resolution to the conflict through redirection of force and control rather than brute engagement.

That is interesting because Mochizuki Sensei was an expert in strangulation holds, which he perfected. The Yoseikan Budo is rooted in the Judo and Aiki-jutsu PRE WW2. He retained Aikido's combative elements. So you will find in addition to many locks and circular movements, sacrifice-throws, and strikes from Karate, and i believe Boxing, and Savate. I still look at the more modern Aiki-Kai type Aikido, and think it's a little soft.

What Aikdio are you in?

thanks
Posted by: fightclub

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/15/05 11:32 PM

AIKI NEWS: When did Mochizuki Sensei actually perfect his Yosekian system and what were its main features?

AUGÉ: I don't know exactly when it happened, but he said that when he was in Europe, he was challenged several times and was exposed to different martial arts and sports. Then he found out that he could switch naturally from one martial art to the other. He also said that he felt that aikido as he had learned it was lacking in effectiveness, but the taisabaki were good for entering inside the opponents' guard so he could then apply variations and techniques from other martial arts. Mochizuki Sensei told us that when he went back to Japan, he talked to Ueshiba Sensei about the necessity of adapting the art to modern fighting systems that use punches and kicks, such as French savate and karate. However, Ueshiba Sensei did not show any concern for such things and Mochizuki Sensei decided to do it by himself.


This is part of an interview with the head of Yoseikan in North America, Pat Auge. You can see it in Aiki News.

hope this gives you some more reference to my posts about Yoseikan techniques.

Thanks
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/16/05 12:20 AM

Quote:


What Aikdio are you in?




That would be the plain old vanilla flavoured variety...

You need to do more research rather than look at surface presentation of hard and soft (thus "effective" or "non-effective"), of this style or that style.

Also, it isn't just about physical technique. Look to the very meaning of "ai-ki" itself... and then you'll see the Way (of aiki) much more clearly as O'Sensei did.
Posted by: fightclub

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/16/05 03:22 AM

Hard and soft are not distinctions I make as to effectiveness.

It is the learned observations of my former Sensei, and his Sensei in turn, that some Aikido as it has become is lacking in martial effectiveness.

Sorry, but that is what they seem to say. Mochizuki himself was trained in the Kodokan under KANO in JUDO,and under Ueshiba,also under Funakoshi in KARATE. as well he is learned in other Japanese arts. He was a Master (10th Dan), so I think his judgment in the matter is credible.

It is not that Aikido PER SE is ineffective, but just the way it has come to be taught in some circles, with less emphasis on technical development, and more of an excersice, that it lacks sincerity in the dojo.

Remember that Ueshiba himself was dedicated to intense and hard training under his teachers in Judo and Kendo. The old days were no cake walk. His awareness or ki was so highly developed in his later life that he reached Mastery.

So please don't take my point as an attack on Aikido effectiveness. To be strong you need strong attacks and defense in the dojo. But not strength alone. You need timing, sensitivity, technique, and ki.

I'm not saying yoseikan is the only show in town that is good. There are others, but that was my experience. I had a superb teacher. I was LUCKY to have found Yoseikan under Patrick Auge. To this day I retain much of my Aikido. Not all the attributes i developed when I seriously trained, but I can still do the falls and rolls, I can get out of holds, it almost sticks with me like an invisible shield.

Well, hope it goes well in your Aiki training.
Posted by: csinca

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/20/05 04:05 PM

If you read carefully, you'll find that eyrie is not saying "don't train in groundfighting"...

Quote:


Groundfighting is a distinct and worthwhile skillset to add to one's repertoire.

...

I say this because the strategy of Aikido requires one to be (standing) in the right place at the right time, so that you are not taken to the ground.

Of course we can surmise all the "what ifs" ad nauseum, so if you happen to be taken to the ground, then you had better quickly get up on your feet!





Also, the second sentence does not say "aikidoka canb't be taken to the ground. What I take from it is that if you are true to the highest concepts of aikido, and practicing aikido(not fighting), then your focus is to be standing in the right place at the right time. This does not necessarily mean standing in front of your opponent, it could mean standing somewhere after having left the scene...

Keep in mind that most competitive arts, both participants are trying to effect the same thing against the other person. If we are in a BJJ class, we are both intending to grapple, gain position and submit the other. If we are both Thai boxers, we are both trying to hit (punch/kick/elbow/knee)the other person. If we are in an MMA tourney, we are both planning to fight inside the cage/ring. But in a self defence/street situation, my aikido mindset does not require that I strike, kick, submit, choke-out, or knock-out the other person. My aikido mindset is simply that I don't want any of the above happening to me.

Takedowns are very different against someone that does not want to engage versus someone that is intent to engage either in striking or grappling.

I'm not trying to put words in eyrie's mouth (or post) but simply offering my interpretation of his post. I'm also not in any way claiming that aikidoka can't be taken down cause I know better.

But when comparing arts, keep the mindset in mind

Chris
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/20/05 08:36 PM

Thanks Chris. That is EXACTLY what I'm saying.
PS: Good to have you back.
Posted by: csinca

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/20/05 08:48 PM

I still owe you an email or two. I haven't forgotten!

Chris
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 07/20/05 10:02 PM

3... but who's counting?
4...

C'mon I'm itching to swap notes....
Posted by: AttorneyJohn

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 07/31/05 07:29 PM

You are doing judo with your friend, but that's OK. Remember, with him being a football player, he isn't exactly a novice at the principles of judo, either, as neither are you from aikido.

You said the magic words, by the way. Off balance. You have to break his balance to effectively do a technique against someone much larger. When you get it, then you will be able to do things much easier to him than before. But, if he isn't going to just let you tip him over, then you really ought to give some thought to the lines of his feet, and the perpendiculars between them. Front or back, right between his feet, and remember, you are supposed to "Push when you're pulled, and pull when you are pushed."
Posted by: xuzen_628

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 08/04/05 04:03 AM

Quote:

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz



Ask him to slim down... then wrestle again.

Boon.
Posted by: Ubermint

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/04/05 02:39 PM

Quote:



Takedowns are very different against someone that does not want to engage versus someone that is intent to engage either in striking or grappling.



So...if you're not striking...and you're not grappling...how are you fighting? In order to physically defend yourself you have to strike or grapple.

People who want to stay standing up are the easiest to take down. Their insistence on trying to root themselves in a stance or dance around lightfooted offbalances them even more.
The highest percentage shot defense (sprawling) involves abandoning your balance and dropping your hips to the ground.
Posted by: WarriorOfLuv

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/04/05 03:03 PM

I think a shot is most effective when it is set up with punch combinations. By the time you punch an experienced aikido player, however, he will be out of the line of the attack and outside the shot's range. An effective shot against an aikido player would just be a spontaneous one that would catch an aikido player off guard. In that case, a good understanding of ma'ai (combat distance) would help. Like what most aikidoka would do, preventing a close attacking distance would be most advisable in defending against an experience wrestler.

This is too much theory though. Why don't you practise some of these shots on an experienced aikidoka and see how effective aikido is against shootfighters?
Posted by: csinca

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/04/05 07:56 PM

Quote:

I think a shot is most effective when it is set up with punch combinations. By the time you punch an experienced aikido player, however, he will be out of the line of the attack and outside the shot's range. An effective shot against an aikido player would just be a spontaneous one that would catch an aikido player off guard. In that case, a good understanding of ma'ai (combat distance) would help. Like what most aikidoka would do, preventing a close attacking distance would be most advisable in defending against an experience wrestler.

This is too much theory though. Why don't you practise some of these shots on an experienced aikidoka and see how effective aikido is against shootfighters?



If the experience level is anywhere close to equal in this experiment I've gotta put my money on the shootfighter.

Chris
Posted by: glad2bhere

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/04/05 10:02 PM

Sorry, but I see this dynamic at least once a semester.

A student comes back to me complaining that a Hapkido technique does not work but ultimately admits that they did not perform the technique as was taught in class out of fear of hurting the partner. I have seen this over and over again.

In TMA we practice a variety of "nasty techniques" but the fact of the matter is that a technique will only be as "nasty" as a person is willing to make it. Learning to kick a person in the throat is of no avail if the person, as the appropriate time is reluctant to perform the ncessary kick and target the appropriate part of the throat.

This seems to be just another case of "I wonder if this stuff works" albeit invited by someone who feels that size should make a difference. Size makes a difference where decelleration is a factor. Otherwise striking someone in the eye or throat is going to be remarkably consistent across a range of people. The question is whether or not the person who started this thread is willing to lose a friend who will undoubtedly take exception to being struck meaningfully in response to his challenge. FWIW.

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/04/05 11:19 PM

The difference between play and real is very real. Bruce is talking about fight as reality, where most people talk about fight as play.

In play, the odds of anyone gaining the advantage are even. In a real life or death engagement, the person who loses, dies (or is hurt badly). It's as simple as that.

In the end there is only training and what you put into it. Beyond that, "tests" of effectiveness mean nothing unless you're prepared to kill (or be killed).

The question is not are you prepared to be hurt today, but are you prepared to die today. Big difference. Otherwise, it's just play.
Posted by: Ubermint

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/05/05 02:27 AM

Quote:

I think a shot is most effective when it is set up with punch combinations. By the time you punch an experienced aikido player, however, he will be out of the line of the attack and outside the shot's range. An effective shot against an aikido player would just be a spontaneous one that would catch an aikido player off guard. In that case, a good understanding of ma'ai (combat distance) would help. Like what most aikidoka would do, preventing a close attacking distance would be most advisable in defending against an experience wrestler.




And that is exactly where you are wrong. By the time you are in distance to strike, you are in distance to shoot.

Quote:


This is too much theory though. Why don't you practise some of these shots on an experienced aikidoka and see how effective aikido is against shootfighters?



Did it already at the austin mcthrowdown. Wanna send me another one?
Posted by: WarriorOfLuv

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/05/05 09:58 AM

1) I don't see how "when your in a distance to strike, you are in a distance to shoot" has to do anything with what I said.

2) Yep. YOu always bring up the Throwdown, hedgehogey. Somehow though I'm still not convinced. Want to keep trying?
Posted by: tainosoldier

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 08/05/05 10:37 AM

Hello All! I have been reading this thread with some interest and I am no expert in KM or Aikido, BUT I am studying both right now! To put my 2 cents into this, I just want to relate an experience I had in KM class.
I was going through one of our pistol disarm techniques and somehow or the other I got into a lock with my partner, of course keeping with our KM state of mind I immediately FLOWED into another technique, what suprised me the most is that it was an automatic reflex that carried me into a SHIHONAGE takedown. It worked with awesome effect
On the flip side, I have used ATEMI in my Aikido that basically came from things that I have done in KM.
I agree that it depends on the person on how they use or combine their art. There is no "Better" art, my opinion, when it comes to defense. I have been in alot of fights in the New York city public school system, and I have to tell you that I did get into it with a BJJ guy. This was awhile ago, before I studied MA and when he went for an arm bar with his legs, don't know the exact name, I bit his damn ankle! He let go alright! Then I ground and pounded Like I said, you can be surprised how an art's technique can suddenly appear in your other practices. Nothing should be bashed or dismissed until you have the experience and the MATURITY to look at them with an eye for what they offer.
Posted by: glad2bhere

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/05/05 03:07 PM

Thanks for the insight. You know thats one of the most frustrating things about forums like this. People tend to skip back and forth across that line between play and real, recreation and combat. Seems as though a thread will start-out all serious and such and suddenly someone pipes up that they were only playing around. On the other hand, a thread can start out playful enough and the responses are playful only to be met with a comment that the originator was talking about real combat information. Seems like we ought to have a separate area for people who are serious about combat ---- or at least a smiley of some sort. Lately I have not been taking much of any of these threads as particularly deep or insightful. No offense but a thread like this that talks about using a technique (one factor) on a "friend" (another factor) of 280 lbs (another factor)and assuming that no injury should be entailed strikes me as being---- well--- kinda senseless. I mean, how many people come from a planet where this happens just a whole such that one is going to use an international venue to get to the bottom of this? In Hapkido we train as though we were learning to use a gun and the idea is that you never take your "gun" out of its holster unless you intend to use it. Theres no such thing as "sorta" firing your gun. Its all or nothing. Are there not other people here who train the same way? Thoughts? Comments?

Best Wishes,

Bruce
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 08/05/05 08:01 PM

Hi Bruce,

I think you will find a lot of people here who are either sincere beginners in the martial arts, those that have been practising for some time and have some modicum of experience, and ignoramuses.

The ones that know, usually don't say much. The one's that don't know, usually have a lot to say.

That's life.
Posted by: ChuckM

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 11/25/05 09:14 AM

In the Aikido that I train under, we work hard to make sure it is as realistic as possible. We have a variety of people that bring their previous experience and styles to the dojo. We have wrestlers, boxers, kickboxers, kartate, tae kwon do, jujitsu, phillipine MA, iadio, and more.

We start our with Shin shin toitsu with its more static atemi and larger movements. From there the progression is to Aikiki with more economical movements and more atemi from nage. The attacks from uke come more direct and less telegraphed. There is greater emphasis placed on randori also. The last step is inyo (combat) that harkens back more to aikijitsu. Less locks and more joint destruction, knock out type chokes, and permenant damage.

We start with shin shin because of its emphasis on Ki as taught by sensei Tohei. Of the 3 it is also the most difficult to pull off. As we progress, the aikiki is more economical, but does add some energy to uke's attack and inyo does not necessarily wait for uke to attack (2 or more attackers specifically).

This is not a traditional aikido school as our belt structure is very simple (white, 3 grades of brown, black) and the individual can study which of the three they want to concentrate on after reaching 1st brown in shin shin.

As to the origianl post, keep practicing your basics and concentrating on ki. The struggle is not with the opponent but within yourself. When I tested for 1st brown, my uke (who I had only met once before and had not worked with) was 240 lbs at 6'3" tall. I am 180 lbs and 5'9". I was not doing very well at first while testing the basic techniques. My instuctor caught on to this quickly (we also tape all testings). After taking a quick break and reminding me to keep center physically, mentally, and spirtually, I came back and was able to perform much better. The key I believe was to not look at uke as my opponent but as my oppurtuniy to practice and relay whtat I had learned. Uke was no longer a threat, but a gift.
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 11/25/05 08:05 PM

Good post Chuck. I agree. Uke is a gift. Focus on ki, and more so on ai-ki.

Hey, it IS ai-ki-do....
Posted by: SenseiRob2004

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 12/01/05 10:33 PM

Quote:

.
I am not suggesting that these moves never work, but that they don't work effectively under certain conditions, or at least that the probability of their effectiveness is lessened by larger, stronger people, who can resist you, drugged individuals who feel little pain, very experienced fighters etc.

In a real life combat situation, it is very messy, explosive, and fast. Your opponent is not static. He is moving, trying to harm you, and is pumped up. It would take a very high level of skill to use such moves in this case. My claims are based on experience, my teacher's lessons, and the feedback of police that he taught.




This goes for any style of martial art, even Krav Maga. It's said here over and over, it's not the art, it's the artist. Coming from a hard style background (Kenpo), I find Aikido extremely effective, if used how it is intended. A 70lb person is just as easy to off-balance as a 300lb man, how you approach it, will vary.

Quote:


Yes, Aikido has been modified by some of Ueshiba's students. that is how Yoseikan came about. Minoru Mochizuki , the founder of the system, modified some aspects to meet the challenges of modern arts like SAVATE, and BOXING. It is a style that is akin to AIKI JU JUTSU. The Aikikai style of Aikido that is taught today, with very soft motions, is NOT the way it was supposed to be taught.




With what Aikido teachs, it would be unwise to teach the art hard...you'd end up with plenty of broken wrists....just because it's TAUGHT soft, does not mean it's intended to be applied that way. For example, Iron Hand training, you use natural power when striking the bag, but when it comes time to "apply" the strikes, you use your whole body power. The reason styles are taught slow & soft is to train the persons body on the small details of the movements (the torking, proper angle, etc).....

Quote:


All I'm saying is that for self defense, you don't want to gamble with a tool that is probably not going to work.




See above when I mentioned it's the person, not the style that fails in self-defense.

Quote:


In Aikido demos, the attacker is usually not that aggressive, and he knows how to roll and fall. Also he is usually co-operative and does what he is expected to do. This may look very lovely, but it is not for real. Sorry, that's just the way it is. If I'm going to attack you, I'm not just going to let you grab me, or turn me the way you want, we may end up in a clinch, and go to the ground. If I get the upper hand i'm going to pummel you. But these are the things that you don't see in Aikido. It's too controlled.




Again see the above when I mentioned training. It would be careless of the instructor to have their students perform joint locks, manipulations at full force & speed. Doing to it slow teaches the mechanics safely. As for the partner falling on purpose, how else do you expect him to fall? You want him to crack his tailbone, or twist his ankle??? Having them fall safely & purposely is for their protection (and yours as a teacher, don't need to be sued now do we?)...as for demo's the purpose is to show the art, having a resisting partner would cause issues, because 9 out of 10 times to teacher has the students demo....if they aren't greatly skilled yet, the moves would look sloppy, the purpose is to bring people into the classes.

Quote:


Believe me, I loved Aikdo with my life. I thought it was THE ULTIMATE martial art. And to be honest I still respect it, and I still think that it has some good things. But i would not depend on it for my life in a street battle.




Then it seems the true essence of Aikido eludes you.

Quote:


Why go through the motions to try and execute 4 or 5 moves for one technique to control your opponent, when you can do it in TWO??? Do you really want to give your enemy who might kill you that kind of time and oppotunity??? I hope not.




Again your stuck on how it looks in class, when performed during a TRUE fight, you aren't going to go in slow & gently push them. It'll be quick & painful (for them)....I don't understand how you fail to realise this?!?!

Quote:


Krav Maga is a scientific martial art. It gets the job done. And while it may not have all the trappings of choreography and finesse that Aikido has, it WORKS!




All styles work, if done properly.

Quote:


In 3 years of Aikido, I couldn't defend myself with what I learned...oh sure I could use those moves in a controled setting, but I don't think a real life fight would be won with Aikdo alone.




Then it seems Aikido is not made for you. And thats fine, everyone isn't meant for every style....

Quote:


I agree that Aikido has noble intentions, but it is not realisitic. Your mugger, or your girlfriend's rapist does not want to be your friend. Evil must be restrained, but sometimes it has to be beaten into submission, or you or your loved one will die.




See the above.....

Sensei
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 12/01/05 10:43 PM

Amen!
Posted by: SenseiRob2004

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 12/02/05 12:24 AM

This is for both who posted against Eyre's statement regarding ground fighting & weight.

In a total reality situation, he is correct to a point. Just because you can tap out a bigger partner in class or in a ring...doesn't mean you can perform that on the street. Besides in the ring, your opponent doesn't out weight you by that much. For example....I've trained in BJJ for a short time while taking Kenpo....I grappled with a variety of sizes....I went up against a new student, I had the upper hand the entire time. A tiny mistake allowed him to go into the mount, then because of him out weighing me by 50 or 60 pounds proceeded to what I call "Shamu" me. Meaning he layed flat on top of me sinking his ENTIRE body weight on me. The positioning of him, had part of his chest smothering my face, making breathing almost impossible. So I ended up tapping out. He bested some of the black belts, my teacher a time or two. He went on to compete locally, and won a few fights. He only trained for a month....size is VERY important w/ JJ...you can only have so much leverage on the ground. One slip or hesitation ends it quickly.....

Sensei
Posted by: Intrepidinv1

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 12/29/05 01:14 PM

Instead of drawing out quotes from your post, I'll say this, I agree with almost everything you say. However, even though in my mind I consider myself a practically minded martial artist, I've studied, read, sparred, practiced, etc. for over 25 years and I still take a mixed martial arts class, I cannot shake my interest in Aikido. I am currently taking Aikido and sometimes mentally find myself shaking my head at the techniques and training methods. I guess I enjoy the traditional japanese type training environment and the mental challenge the art presents.
Posted by: UMan

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 01/29/06 03:12 PM

Is this thread still alive? Anyway, one more comment on the original question..

Ideally aikido utilises the energy of the attacker. which means that your training fellow makes initiative , attacks, and by doing this he "emits energy" that you could use in turn to apply aikido in order to redirect the attacker's force against himself, to take him off balance.

If there is no attack then nothing happens. But whenever there is a real attack we can use aikido. The challenge is to understand all the elements that are required to construct a "perfect" aikido implementation. In addition to the formal techics itself, these include things such as timing, correct positioning in relation to the attacker, relaxation, self confidence, good posture, understanding the meaning of contact, ki flow, "mushin" etc.
To be able to apply the technique with all these elements in place you just have to practise years. Slowly the same basic
stuffs what you begin with turns into real aikido, with a lot of practise.

Maybe a good starting point is to observe what kind of attack and energy your partner gives to you that you can use to take him off balance and then then proceed with some basic technics. If he does not attack, do not try to force him , just wait, otherwise it leads to wrestling and it is not aikido..

ANd, remember to have fun when practising
Posted by: iaibear

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 01/29/06 06:04 PM

Quote:

my friend is a little shorter than me but hez twice my weight and he is a football player and pretty much when we wrestler if i go 4 his wristz i cant do nething and he grabz my armz and throwz me around like a ragdoll and only way i evar win is if i can squeeze out of his holdz and get behind him 2 choke him and that isnt aikido.

what should i do when i wrestle against him????????



That was from the original post from Poster: Ninjasaurus. And he is right. "if i go 4 his wristz i cant do nething" Why? Because that is NOT Aikido. You do NOT attack. In Aikido you wait for HIM to attack. Then you use his weight and momentum against him to destroy his balance.

Sorry if someone else pointed that out already. There were an awful lot of posts.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 02/28/06 08:10 PM

The biggest reason people "can't do anything" with somebody that size using conventional techniques is that their hands don't wrap around their wrists to do sankyo, etc. When that happens, you have to learn to improvise, and move to something you can use, like gripping the middle three fingers and doing sankyo.

In my style of jujitsu, I teach 5 different methods of doing sankyo, and each of them is uniquely painful in a different way using the same spiraling energy. If the attacker is so large you can't grab them, you grab what you can and do the techniques.

Chin na, the Chinese equivalent of Aikido, has a lot of different methods of splitting the fingers and attacking the hand instead of the wrist in order to accomplish a grip or pin-type seizure. If you can't do anything with your friend, it's not because of his size, it's because of the size of your technique.

One of my favorite techniques when somebody, regardless of their size, grabs me in a "bear hug" is to simply press sharply into the base of their fingernail. I've had guys his size almost jump over me to get the pressure off, so it isn't the attacker's size that matters, it's how you turn that attack to your advantage.



p.s. you could use a good spell checker... "nerd talk" sucks pond water, and you can't carry on intelligent discussions if your input looks like somebody wiped with it.
Posted by: xuzen_628

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 03/01/06 08:53 PM

When size is clearly at a disadvantage, use small circle jujutsu aka Chin-na.

Once we were doing ryote kata mochi nikyo (Both hand grips on shoulder). I was the uke and my tori was a diminutive middle age obasan (housewife), height at my armpit level and only half my weight.

She could not do conventional nikyo on me because like wristtwister said, she just could not secure a firm grip on my larger wrist (Frequent ken suburi does really make one's wrist large). However, my sensei came over, and asked her to grip my last two fingers and reapply nikyo. I painfully went down.

Xwf
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 03/02/06 10:10 PM

Another aspect of dealing with "large people" is to develop the ability to make them "reach" for you, so that they are always over-extended and off balance. You can accomplish this in a lot of different ways, such as "reaching down" and forcing them to lean over, or stepping back and turning your body so your wrists and arms aren't so accessible to them.

One of the principles I teach in jujitsu is that "the body follows pain", so making something painful is another way to encourage such a large guy to take himself off his structure, and cause them to lose their balance. If you combine it with movement and an "adjustment", you can move even the biggest bruiser easily.

I teach a series of "palms up" and "palms down" techniques that instantly change the big fellow's "grip attitude" and lead him to change his body's structure, usually in an off-balanced condition. If you'll turn your hand over just before he gets his grip, and then return to your "natural" position, I can promise you that you'll already have an advantage over the attacker, no matter what his size might be.

Remember that the point of contact is always an active point for turning your opponent around by simply going to your natural position, and seeing things "his way" (tenkan).

If you want to do Nikkyo, all you have to do is learn to "roll your wrists" like a Hawaiian Hula dancer, and you can apply nikkyo on anybody. If you do Tai Chi, and "ward off", all you need do is to roll your wrist a bit further and wave at your friends, and you'll have the bugger in nikkyo so fast they won't know what happened. Remember, it's "just a wave", so you don't need to work hard to do it.

The other method is called "throwing a rope around a limb", and you simply keep your wrist and hand completely relaxed and act like you're winding a rope around the end of a stick. Be careful not to smash their face when you do this, however, because most of the time, people get a little too relaxed with it and cause their partner to slam into the floor or nearest solid object.

Big people are still people, and their bodies work the same way as runts... they just make more noise when they hit the floor...

Posted by: theoldone

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 03/06/06 01:30 PM

Hmmm...

If things are not working for you, you need to "look at the fish".

Eh? Wot?

"The fish" is about the famous scientist Louis Agassiz and how he unlocked the "secrets" of a species of extinct fish through studying the bones that was dug up in an expeditionary dig.

The story can be found in Maxwell Matltz's book, PsychoCybernetics. Read it, then decide how it applies to your training.
Posted by: alfbury

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 04/03/06 08:06 AM

great discussion everyone....Lots of very interesting and valid views...
I have skipped a few pages so sorry if i repeat any views...
First piece of advice.....Dont panic... It happens to everyone regardless of style..."show us your karate" and when you do they just throw you around...there is a great article on this website about "the mighty pinch" which deals with this very subject.
Its fair to question to ask what you are doing wrong but I guess the better question is...How long do i need to study Aikido before I can beat this guy? And the answetr is a long time....
IMHO If you learn BJJ you will be able to wrestle him into submission much quicker..(I have studied and submitted very heavy guys after only 3 years of BJJ).but this will not help your Aikido
Part of Aikido is to flow with their energies.example.. you try a wrist lock...It doesn't work but they have now moved in a way which allows you to try a projection...that doesn't work either but this leads to a...and so on...To do this takes amazing skill, practice and time.
Lastly an anecdote from a friend of mine who is a policeman...He said..."I had this wrist lock on this big guy but it did nothing....what was i doing wrong?" When he showed me the lock..a gooseneck type thing...he was doing it all right I said "did you break his wrist?" No?...Because if he really put that lock on he would have trashed the guys wrist....I truly believe he simply didnt crank it up enough...and when you play with your friends who you really dont want to hurt...you crank it up even less...I know its not a solution but its hopefully something to think about ..
Great posts
(everyone I read at least!!!)
Alf
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 04/03/06 10:10 PM

I had to skip out on that last post before I got to the "breakdown" techniques, but striking into the joints to collapse them is both good karate and jujitsu technique. Regardless of how big or strong someone is, there aren't muscles in the creases of the joints of the arms and knees, and striking to collapse them is a perfect method to break their balance and "move" the bigger people who don't move by conventional means.

If the person who is much larger is holding on to you, there is the old judo technique of grabbing the elbow from underneath and pulling it toward your center. Mechanically, it will cause them to break their balance, and you can throw or upset their balance further from there.

If you add a little pressure point work onto those techniques as well, I'm sure that it doesn't matter how big this guy is, you'll start him moving. It just depends on how much bear you can handle after you get him started...

If he's your friend, you might tell him ahead of the hitting techniques that you don't want to hurt him, but you will if he isn't going to cooperate... and when you strike the pressure points, use the protruding bone in your wrist to hit them.

Posted by: quinn_hamblin

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 lbz - 04/07/06 06:14 AM

While my first reccomendation is to simply try and avoid a confrontation with someone twice your size and muscle power, if you wish to use aikido techniques kote-gaeshi would probably be the most effective. Few people have strong wrists in that sense, and kote-gaeshi can be applied from every direction. Also, aikido is very hard to apply if the person is not actually trying to move/attack, as it works on the principle of blending with an oncoming energy, and it is mighty hard to blend with something stationery.

Just remember, aikido is no way to pummelpeople into submission, it is the way of harmony/love. If you want to make people bleed out of ther ears, then choose something to that effect. If you want to defend yourself with a minimum of damage to both attacker and attackee, then choose aikido.

I would also reccommend to your friend that he should possibly improve his diet and exercise levels.
Posted by: TheKen

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/11/06 03:39 PM

I am reading into it and I pick out the following that others have said.

1. You are not using your full body or his momentum (of which it seems there is none though) in this occasion.

2. You're technique may be good but your strategy is weak.

Ok so you have this big guy who knows you are going to do a wrist lock. Most locks work because you capture the person on the edge of or approaching the "point of no return". A person can lock their neutral position wrist to make it very hard to bend. Flex the muscles of the forearm and you give the person trying to apply it a stiff joint with no leverage to work with. I am guessing he has is arm strong arming you with a closed fist. One way to help out is with your thumb if he has a closed fist push down hard between the knuckles of his middle and ring fingers. by push down I mean along the axis of his arm/radial bone. This effectively causes pain and leads to the closed fist oppening. At this point his forearm muscles lax and you know have his whole hand and extended fingers to use for leverage for a wrist or finger joint lock.

When you practice a manuever you can either practice it in a controlled situation where you opponent is cooperative to allow you to practice the technique or you are in a free spar situation where you must use STRATEGY to apply the element of suprise to apply your technique.

Also as a suggestion since it seems you are much smaller than this big guy have you tried a breakfall with the grab so that instead of just your dropping weight you can incorporate it with a torque from the swinging motion of the breakfall. The effect will be like you are swinging on his arm and unless you are less than 100 lbs that should be enough kinetic energy to offset anyones balance if they are not expecting it.

Ken
Posted by: SpeedyGonzales

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/11/06 05:45 PM

Quote:

Also as a suggestion since it seems you are much smaller than this big guy have you tried a breakfall with the grab so that instead of just your dropping weight you can incorporate it with a torque from the swinging motion of the breakfall. The effect will be like you are swinging on his arm and unless you are less than 100 lbs that should be enough kinetic energy to offset anyones balance if they are not expecting it.

Ken



Interesting idea...I never heard of this, is this an official technique or just an idea for application, and did you think of this or is it taught at your dojo?

I an just a beginner so I have no idea if this is taught in our dojo
Posted by: TheKen

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/11/06 05:52 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Also as a suggestion since it seems you are much smaller than this big guy have you tried a breakfall with the grab so that instead of just your dropping weight you can incorporate it with a torque from the swinging motion of the breakfall. The effect will be like you are swinging on his arm and unless you are less than 100 lbs that should be enough kinetic energy to offset anyones balance if they are not expecting it.

Ken



Interesting idea...I never heard of this, is this an official technique or just an idea for application, and did you think of this or is it taught at your dojo?

I an just a beginner so I have no idea if this is taught in our dojo



My first Ninjitsu Dojo this concept was taught. I have seen it elluded to as well in books by Steven K Hayes. Sorry when I posted I got into a rhythme and forgot this was the Akido forum! I started posting knowing that the basic lock principles where inherently similar and forgot towards the end of my post. The concept is sound although even in Ninjitsu I don't see it widely taught. The application is very specific to smaller agile students. In other words at 6'5" 220 it got used on me for demonstration. I will say when done right it can be effective but if telgraphed or "seen" coming in any way the counters can be devestating.

Ken
Posted by: eyrie

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/11/06 08:09 PM

If you're talking about a sutemi (sacrifice) technique, it would be highly inadvisable....
Posted by: Chanters

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/12/06 02:46 AM

I've also been advised by many of my sensei that the sacrifice throw is not advisable, it leaves you open, lay flat on your back, not somewhere you'd want to be particularly if there's more than one attacker. We just practice it to develop our kokyuho technique.
Posted by: Xaith

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/12/06 10:43 AM

Hello. I practice Hapkido, not Aikido... but I had an observation or two.

I have a good friend in Hapkido who is plenty big, not quite 280, though. I am only 150, but sometimes, I can still take him down. As big as he is, it is hard for him to maintain his center of gravity. He has to shift his hips differently when he crouches or bends over. It's kind of hard to explain, but when it happens, it is very easy for me to take him down, usually with an arm drag. I have also used a sweep from the floor(guard) very effectively when he stands and starts to try to lift me up.

I hope these make sense, it is hard to describe with text alone.

I also agree that sacrifice takedowns are a bad idea. Mostly because I can't always control where he falls, and it is bad if he falls on me. If he sees it coming and goes with it, then he can make sure he does land on me. Not fun.
Posted by: Joe Jutsu

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/14/06 02:25 AM

Someone earlier stated that if you are "going for his wrist" you aren't doing aikido.

Aikido techniques can in fact be used offensively, I think they are rarely taught that way but I have a video of Kisomaru Ueshiba, Tohei, and Abe, I guess a bunch of the old schoolers doing just that.

FWIW
Posted by: MattJ

Re: cant do nething against my friend that is 280 - 04/14/06 11:13 AM

Quote:

Someone earlier stated that if you are "going for his wrist" you aren't doing aikido.

Aikido techniques can in fact be used offensively, I think they are rarely taught that way but I have a video of Kisomaru Ueshiba, Tohei, and Abe, I guess a bunch of the old schoolers doing just that.

FWIW



Any chance of putting that up on the internet so we can see it?