Aikido and street fighting

Posted by: Anonymous

Aikido and street fighting - 01/13/05 11:09 PM

Is aikido rrly that affective in a street fight, especially in boxing or against another who knows tkd, kra maga....etc?

Since aikido is considered "soft", can't you use those techiniques and make it "hard" on your own desire? Use it as an aggresoor not only as a defender?

[This message has been edited by student1 (edited 01-14-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/13/05 11:29 PM

If you talk in terms of "hardness" or "softness" of technique or application, you have totally missed the point - it is neither hard nor soft, and it is both hard and soft.

And if you intend to use aikido (or any martial art) as an aggressor, then you have totally missed the point of learning martial arts.
Posted by: senseilou

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/14/05 12:45 AM

What do you mean by street fighter? If you mean a fight between you and an average Joe who takes offense to something you said or did, it will work just fine. There are alot of so called tought guys on the street that don't know to fight, and play on their intimidation factor. I had a student once who was 6'2' 360 pounds. His attitude was he would just grab someone and squeeze them till they passed out, He thought he was a great street tough guy, size and attitude. I tried to explain to him his theory was all wrong and let him grab me. we all know things like eye pokes and ear claps, face rakes but I was not going to use them. He picked me up and started to squeeze and I went totally limp, dropped the weight in my butt, and he kept squeezing till he almost had a heart attack. I never seen a persons face that red, I actually had to control his breathing for him. It was a horrible experience for him, he thought he was going to die. I explained I made him hold both out weights, and he found out he wasn't so tough after all. There are common misconceptions about being a street fighter. If you face a gang, and they have had fights with other gangs, that kind of person you will most likely not get an Aiki lock on them. They are all over the place. Not saying it can't be done, but you must nuetralize their attack, and you need to cause pain too. Those kind of explosive type fights, you will not get an Aiki lock. Look at a boxing match. Look how many punches are thrown on one round more or less an entore fight. 100 punches a ropund are not uncommon. Connect rate at 30-40% and you get his 30-40 times in 3 minutes. I don't guess it would happen just like that on the street, but you get a brawler and he is just swinging away you may get tagged a bit. You may want to read the thread under this one about form and function. Taking hits in the dojo is a good way to be prepared in case you take some on the street. If I use locks, its an aftermath of some serious striking first.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/14/05 09:14 AM

I think it is a bad idea to think of hard and soft, aggressive or defensive, etc. The only grouping should be "this is usefull" and/or "this is not usefull" and that's it.

Aikido is defensive is a real surface level way of looking at things. My opinion is that aikido is an entire art. It is both yin and yang. If it were just defensive, then it could not be a complete art. They should say that "aikido is defensive in early stages of learning" and generally for a good reason.

However, I'm not convinced you have to actively strike to then get a lock (although it is a MUCH higher percentage strategy than hoping the attacker attacks in such a simplistic way that you can be totally defensive!). I'd say that when you start to learn - you have no chance of using that stuff on the street - and the same is true for karate and judo as well!!! Then you get better, and people who take body impacts are toughened enough to have a much better chance of doing something for real - but still it's a lot more about luck and natural ability than training for quite a while.

Eventually, training works period. In aikido, it generally seems like it takes longer because we are trying to skip a lot of the surface level stuff or at least not focus there. The surface level stuff is not bad and can work well - but it's just generally not the focus of most aikido schools.

So, does it really work. Yes - but if you are concerned about speed, I'd recommend that you take up boxing and learn to defend a kick. (Kempo would be good for learning the basics of that quickly.)

Rob
Posted by: senseilou

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/14/05 12:53 PM

However, I'm not convinced you have to actively strike to then get a lock

I am just wondering and not criticizing understand, but wonder have you ever been in a real fight? If you have did you use you Aikido. Have you ever tried to use your Aiki skills against a Karateka or wrestler? I am asking because the attacks are not the same as in Aikido and not done in the same way. If you get in a sparring scenario, it is very hard to get a hold of their striking hand, you can try to take advantage of openings, but how if you can't lock? Having trained in both, I don't feel you will get your Aiki in a sustained attack using combinations. You would have to change your range and work on the grappling , versus locking. I know I am going to catch hell for this but here goes anyway. One of the biggest lessons I have learned in cross training is RANGES. There is striking range(punch and kicking range)locking range, and grappling range. Aikido does not teach or concern themselves with or teach range. The approach is to just get the lock they want. Karateka know about ranges especially in sparring, kicking range and striking range. Wrestlers and grapplers close the range to get their takedowns. An Aikidoka does not practice how to defend against a boxer's jab to keep you at a distance, or a KArateka kicking. I have to tell you I have seen so may Aikidoka susceptible to kicks, they just can't handle them or combination kicks, or kicks and strikes. You have to take advantage of any opening an attacker gives you, and if he punches, he has to give you his front leg, arm, and rib cage. While Aikido adresses getting the arm, the ribs and front leg are left untouched, which very well could create a secondary attack. If you are not convinced, I certainly am not going to convince you. But if you haven't already done so, get out of the Aiki venue and train with someone else and see if you can get your Aiki on another type of attack than Aiki. You may be much better than me, but I believe you will play hell trying to deal with a non AIki attack without some sort of atemi waza.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/14/05 08:44 PM

Because aikido involves grabbing another's arm and such to put them down, what if your oppenent is a type that swings. I learning a little bit of aikido and is very interested in the art, but on my free time, i enjoy boxing with my friends and such. I try to use the things i learn and i don't find it to help much. Maybe its because i haven't the art long enough, but i am not able to avoid my oppenents strikes.

Some of my friends study kra maga, takewondo and karate. How can you use aikido style against them?

[This message has been edited by student1 (edited 01-14-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/18/05 01:55 AM

Some of my friends study kra maga, takewondo and karate. How can you use aikido style against them?

practice with them. not to be a smarty pants but thast really how you will learn to deal with different styles. get a good solid understanding of the techniques you want to try and apply. know the underlying principles. then take that technique adn make it your own. practice practice practice.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/18/05 05:27 AM

The likelihood of someone with sufficient MA skills trying to start a fight is highly unlikely. Again I will say it all depends on the individual and the situation. If it were to happen it depends on how skilled the attacker may be in his art and the same with yourself. If you've practiced aikido for 10+ years and at dan grade level and were to be attacked by a krav maga practitioner who's been training for 1-2 years, I think the aikidoka would most probably be successful in defending himself against the attacks.

Remember, aikido along with most other ma wasn't developed so we could go around streetfighting. Furthermore aikido isn't 100% defensive, we do use atemi. I have been taught to use this primarily to distract and unbalance the attacker, not necessarily to inflict injury.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by student1:
Because aikido involves grabbing another's arm and such to put them down, what if your oppenent is a type that swings. I learning a little bit of aikido and is very interested in the art, but on my free time, i enjoy boxing with my friends and such. I try to use the things i learn and i don't find it to help much. Maybe its because i haven't the art long enough, but i am not able to avoid my oppenents strikes.

[This message has been edited by student1 (edited 01-14-2005).]
[/QUOTE]

If your attacker throws a swinging punch, all the better to deal with him as his balance woud not be strong and it's a strike you can see coming rather than if it were a jab. A swing is quite a committed strike so it would be most likely you would be able to exploit his movement and energy, something aikido utilises in most of its techniques.

I agree with Thaiboxer, try practicing with people who study a different art.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/18/05 12:15 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanters:
The likelihood of someone with sufficient MA skills trying to start a fight is highly unlikely. [/QUOTE]


Why?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/18/05 07:21 PM

WHY?

Because the aim of learning MA is not to fight or show off. The aim of learning MA is to develop (higher/spiritual) awareness and (higher) consciousness, and the interconnectedness of all things in nature. Satsuninto katsujinken - the sword that kills is also the sword that gives life.

I can teach anyone to kick and punch. I can teach someone how to disable, maim and kill. But I can't teach them how to un-hurt or un-kill someone, coz when they're hurt or dead, that's it...GAME OVER. DO NOT INSERT CREDIT.

UNDERSTAND? GAME OVER. NO MORE EXTRA LIVES.

Don't you watch the Karate Kid? :-)
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/19/05 01:29 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by pyungshin:

Why?
[/QUOTE]

Of all the MA's I know, all of them are intelligent, well mannered, respectful people who don't practice their art so they can kick ass but because their aim is to improve themselves mentally as well as physically. There may be a few out there who are egotistical but the chances of being confronted by them are slim to none. MA's teach you self control, respect, focus, and also proven to reduce stress.

I'm not saying a practitioner of MA will never start a "street fight", I'm saying there's more chance the attacker or instigator would be some insecure fool who feels he has something to prove but has little fighting skills.



[This message has been edited by Chanters (edited 01-19-2005).]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/19/05 09:12 AM

What is up with all the "streetfighting" posts?

Jumping from thread to thread to thread.

You would think 10's of thosands of folks have a second job as an underground "streetfighter" the way this stuff keeps popping up.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/19/05 10:40 AM

[IMG]http://img158.exs.cx/img158/5147/wall2hw.jpg[/IMG]

oldman
Posted by: cxt

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/19/05 11:26 AM

Oldman

Classic!!!!!
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/22/05 11:41 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by eyrie:
WHY?

Because the aim of learning MA is not to fight or show off. The aim of learning MA is to develop (higher/spiritual) awareness and (higher) consciousness, and the interconnectedness of all things in nature.
[/QUOTE]

See, now this is just too much. What the other guy said about discipline and all that is fine, but why must people insist on this foolish, overly romantic notion that you are on your way to becoming a Bodhisattva just because you learn a few kata? Take it easy with that crap.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/22/05 04:50 PM

OK, you busted me... I've been known to commit random acts of romantic foolishness. :-)

But I did not imply that by developing a higher/spiritual consciousness thru MA training that we are on the way to achieving "spirtual enlightenment".

I merely suggested that there are higher goals of achievement thru MA training - that of developing human consciousness and conscious intent (not specifically in any esoteric or religious context).

Most people practice MA in varying states of consciousness (or unconsciousness) and think that is all to it.

People will believe what they want to believe. And that's fine. If they believe that learning MA is just for fighting and showing off how "cool" they are, then I'm sorry that they're only getting a fraction of what they can potentially achieve.

If they only see MA for the discipline and self-control, then they are also missing the full picture.

Some MAs focus on developing the body only, and ignore the mind and spirit. When I say "spiritual", I don't mean in the religious or esoteric sense - I mean the human spirit. I mean what makes us human. I mean that which we call the "state of being".

Maybe this is too hard for some to understand, or maybe they don't want to understand because they have an issue with the seemingly esoteric/religious connotations that such words might evoke.

However, if we consider MA in terms of constant refinement of body, mind and spirit, then by focusing solely on physical refinement, are we not limiting human potential? Are we not multi-dimensional, multi-faceted beings?

Maybe this is all crap anyway. Maybe "budo" is a load of crap. Who needs values? We live, we die. But I'll take what's due to me right now, even if I have to kill you for it.

Maybe that's what it's about?

Maybe we just learn budo so we can be invincible fighters who can kill with a sideways glance?

Ah, maybe that's what aikido is about? So I can feel if you are looking at me the wrong way, and blend with your evil intent thusly, so that I can then beat the bejesus out of your sorry little butt - for looking at me the wrong way.

Or maybe, if someone accuses me of practising kata and harbouring foolish, romantic notions of becoming a Bodhisattva, I should invoke the wrath of the 8 million kami and use aikido to thump the living crap out of them, so they can attain enlightenment?

Well, maybe I like being a romantic fool on my blissfully ignorant path to buddhahood.







[This message has been edited by eyrie (edited 01-22-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/24/05 01:55 AM

Nice rant Eyrie!

I also think it is very important for anyone who wants to become a competent martial artist to develop their mind aswell as their body.

Good post!

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Chanters
Posted by: Robaikido

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/24/05 10:28 AM

I agree with you that when some people hear spiritual they assume its some sort of praying or something.

A welkl knonw saying is ' Its not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog'

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isnt the size of the fight in the dog its spirit, confidence, heart, whatever you want to call it, but if someones spirit is strong, they will keep getting back up, no matter what you throw at them, while your big ego'd bully will be un-concious on his ass.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/31/05 03:03 AM

One must be deviod of fight to defeat an attacker. Just recently I managed to park in someones (or so they thought) parking spot. Boston's been totally snowed in, so tensions are high. This guy came stomping over in a fury as I exited the vehicle. He told me to get the f... out of his spot. I remained calm and gently reminded him that I was in a public spot. The footing was very bad so I closed distance rather than risk slipping. As he raised his hands and leaned forward to push me I met him with a 1/4 turn tenchi nage, the result of which landed him 5 ft away face up in a snow bank. I walked over and apologized for not catching him and offered to help him dig out a spot. At that point we had reached an understanding and he told me no thanks and trudged off.
Unfortunately I've had to defend myself more times than I'd like to admit around here but Aikido has never failed me. Its not so much the techniqes themselves (as I was quite versed in wrestling, boxing and some jiu-jitsu before) but my overall attitude, demeanor, tranquility, and absence of brutal force, that has made all the difference.
A serious student should never doubt themselves in the face of adversity. Proper attitude, confidence, and stability will get you most of the way through. The rest is dilligence, properly trained hands probably won't fail when you need them most.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/31/05 03:20 AM

deleted (my apologies senseilou)

[This message has been edited by Immortal_Highlander (edited 02-04-2005).]
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/31/05 03:21 AM

Aikido is as potentially devastating in a Street fight as any other art. (this said however an Aikidoka would never intentionally use there training to hurt another person.) Technique is not the be all and end all of any art, clarity understanding and calmness i believe are more powerful weapons especially in a street fight. Most techniques will not work as practiced because they are simply Kata and exercises, training in aikido you must understand that they are just exercises, and eventually they do not matter and to quote my Sensei and probably many others it just Does itself.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 01/31/05 03:31 AM

Oh yeah Senseilou no offence but the comment about range i dont buy it since day one i had been taught about this stuff, knowing what you are susceptable to from your attacker, what weapons they have ie kick punch headbut, and how to neutralise them and get in a safe position oh yeah and vary rarely bar in the last stages of a technique when your attacker is for lack of a better word screwed do u actually grab your opponent why? because we want to remain fluid incase of follow up attacks and to be aware of other attackers, [QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
"However, I'm not convinced you have to actively strike to then get a lock"

I am just wondering and not criticizing understand, but wonder have you ever been in a real fight? If you have did you use you Aikido. Have you ever tried to use your Aiki skills against a Karateka or wrestler? I am asking because the attacks are not the same as in Aikido and not done in the same way. If you get in a sparring scenario, it is very hard to get a hold of their striking hand, you can try to take advantage of openings, but how if you can't lock? Having trained in both, I don't feel you will get your Aiki in a sustained attack using combinations. You would have to change your range and work on the grappling , versus locking. I know I am going to catch hell for this but here goes anyway. One of the biggest lessons I have learned in cross training is RANGES. There is striking range(punch and kicking range)locking range, and grappling range. Aikido does not teach or concern themselves with or teach range. The approach is to just get the lock they want. Karateka know about ranges especially in sparring, kicking range and striking range. Wrestlers and grapplers close the range to get their takedowns. An Aikidoka does not practice how to defend against a boxer's jab to keep you at a distance, or a KArateka kicking. I have to tell you I have seen so may Aikidoka susceptible to kicks, they just can't handle them or combination kicks, or kicks and strikes. You have to take advantage of any opening an attacker gives you, and if he punches, he has to give you his front leg, arm, and rib cage. While Aikido adresses getting the arm, the ribs and front leg are left untouched, which very well could create a secondary attack. If you are not convinced, I certainly am not going to convince you. But if you haven't already done so, get out of the Aiki venue and train with someone else and see if you can get your Aiki on another type of attack than Aiki. You may be much better than me, but I believe you will play hell trying to deal with a non AIki attack without some sort of atemi waza.
[/QUOTE]
Posted by: csinca

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/01/05 10:03 PM

this one has gone a bit too far over the edge to wade in any further...
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/02/05 02:16 AM

Senseilou there are only two ranges{able to be hit..grappled, kung fu'd death touched, tadered)--EITHER YOU ARE VUNERABLE OR NOT depends on the attack and the weapon... a nucleur missile will **** you up anywhere. there are no effective classificaions for "range"

[This message has been edited by Immortal_Highlander (edited 02-04-2005).]
Posted by: cxt

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/02/05 10:26 AM

Immortal

Earlier you said you were a soldier, now you say you train with crimnals.

Are you calling soldiers crimianls?? That should go over well with the "elite" units you claim as friends.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/02/05 08:45 PM

cxt, with a screenname like Immortal_Highlander, and the blatant boast about the (alleged) military background, I think you need to take what some people say with a LARGE grain of salt.

Most people would know that the Marines (of all units!) certainly has no place for testoterone-challenged individuals with over-inflated egos, compensating for lack of male anatomical correctness.

And "Immortal" (or whoever the heck u r), don't you think your conduct is unbecoming of a Marine?
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/02/05 09:21 PM

God... I'm crying inside, now that I know my little weiner won't cut it, I'll never be the same. How did I say soldiers are criminals? nonsense. I know I was a bit hard on Senseilou- actually most of what he says makes more sense than most - but I say it as I see it. CONCENTRATE ON TRAINING IN LIVE SCENARIOS, classifying ranges is about as useless as a knife with no blade. Aikido can be useful in every situation, although I think studying striking and grappling first is what makes the higher art possible.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/02/05 11:16 PM

Many seem adament about fighting on the streets. I train to defend. If I chose to offend I will use a .45.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/02/05 11:23 PM

P.S.

shomenuchi = strait punch = jab

therefore

most techniques defending shomenuchi can defend jab.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 02/03/05 11:10 PM

Aikido will never be truly popular until it sheds it's thuggish, street brawling image within the greater martial arts community.
Posted by: Anonymous

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 03/02/05 12:04 PM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
"However, I'm not convinced you have to actively strike to then get a lock"

I am just wondering and not criticizing understand, but wonder have you ever been in a real fight? If you have did you use you Aikido. Have you ever tried to use your Aiki skills against a Karateka or wrestler? I am asking because the attacks are not the same as in Aikido and not done in the same way.
[/QUOTE]

Sorry for the late reply, senseilou, I forgot all about this thread and then it started to get a bit silly.

The answer would be yes I've been in real fights, but admittedly not in a while. Suprisingly (to me) I was close to getting in a real fight about a year ago, but it didn't happen. Someone wanted to beat me up in traffic, I didn't know they were getting out of the passenger side door, so when I sent to pull around the car I almost ran over my attacker. He had to jump back into the car. But, no I'm not looking to fights.

A long while ago I had some fights which would be considered serious by anyone's standards. I think I'm still pretty in touch with those feelings of fear and anger that seemed to manifest into the single idea of "keep hitting the bloody spot."

I've working out pretty hard with people who have no interest in complying with my aikido. I lose, get bloody noses, sore neck and back aches, taken down and tortured a bit. It's all in good training spirit. I understand that my current trianing is not a fight to the death, but that's as close as I'm willing to go unless someone is actively attacking me or my loved ones.

I do agree that atemi will make or break your technique in general. All I was saying is that I don't think you _have to_ set up a lock with active striking. They do happen in the moment. I've done them without striking. I snagged the pointing fingers of a very large rugby player who was yelling at me and psycheing himself up. I actually got a farily decent sankyo that took a lot of wind out of his anger with me. I also entered for ikkyo against multiple combinations of strikes. I think my arm did an okay job or deflecting as my body entered (with some destruction of balance anyway).

It's a bummer that people don't have good practical aikido/boxing katas developed.

Rob
Posted by: csinca

Re: Aikido and street fighting - 03/03/05 09:19 AM

Rob,

For some reason "Keep hitting the bloody spot" made me laugh this morning!

Thanks for the insight!

Chris