Fighting spirit

Can aikido really engender any kind of fighting spirit in its practitioners when it has no competitive elements?? Arts such as karate, ones that have sparring, are obviously about winning in a fight. Aikido seems to lack this element. Does that matter?

Budo

Alright, I don't know who you are but I think it is unfair to use Cato's computer without his knowledge-- he never would have said that. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

What is fighting spirit? For me, it is the ability to focus your will to accomplish your aim, no matter what else might be happening to or around you. If you buy that definition, does aikido practice not improve one's ability to focus?

I'll fall back on the standard answer: It depends on how you practice it.

another cato impostor?????? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
is your randori not the equivelant of karate's kumite?? or free practice?
my answer would be yes any art can develope a fighting spirit.

In my school it is taught that we are striving for a universal spirit or mind, because, without getting off on a long philisophical debate, there is no conflict in the absolute universe but there is conflict in the relative world, and having a fighting mind is in dessension with the absolute universe. As Tohei sensei wrote in his ki sayings "to walk the ways of the universe is the ultimate purpose of my study."

I guess that's pretty esoteric, I'll try not to let it happen again. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Joe

See, lads, just when you think you know someone.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

By it's very nature aikido teaches passivity rather than aggression. Everything about aikido screams de-escalation and the avoidance of pre-emptive force. That must cause a conflict when it comes to fighting, where the need for pro-active action often outweighs the benefits of remaining passive.

An aikidoka will prefer to avoid a confrontation rather than accept a challenge to fight. Whilst there is a lot of humility in doing so, there is a fine line between humility and a lack of self respect which often seems to be an attendant problem with aikido. How can aikidoka be passive and re-active whilst at the same time having any self esteem? If I insult a karateka I'm likely to get a punch on the nose, yet an aikidoka will most probably walk away. Where's the fighting spirit in that?

Budo

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
See, lads, just when you think you know someone.... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

By it's very nature aikido teaches passivity rather than aggression. Everything about aikido screams de-escalation and the avoidance of pre-emptive force. That must cause a conflict when it comes to fighting, where the need for pro-active action often outweighs the benefits of remaining passive.

An aikidoka will prefer to avoid a confrontation rather than accept a challenge to fight. Whilst there is a lot of humility in doing so, there is a fine line between humility and a lack of self respect which often seems to be an attendant problem with aikido. How can aikidoka be passive and re-active whilst at the same time having any self esteem? If I insult a karateka I'm likely to get a punch on the nose, yet an aikidoka will most probably walk away. Where's the fighting spirit in that?

Budo [/QUOTE]

The fighting spirit is when they walk off to fetch their katana!!

I'll suggest the value of Aikido has been shown here.

Why are these insults being thrown? Obviously to provoke...so the provoker is ready and up for it...to get embroiled in a meaningless fight over 'insults' is just a waste of time.

If there are real reasons to fight then an Aikidoka will do it on their own terms.

D

Cato,

I remember having some good discussions with you (and others) about this when I first signed on. At the time, you were the one who cautioned me against too much passivity-- and I think I have come to understand what you were getting at, maybe even taken it a little too far.

I think where the fighting spirit comes in is when you realize that an aikidoka will not let another impose his will on him. His attempts to do so will invariably be turned against him.

That, to me, is the essence of "fighting spirit", the idea that one will never give up. It really doesn't require aggressiveness so much as assertiveness. Does that make any sense?

When a person insults you, he is hoping to draw you into something. If you do not allow that to happen, his intentions go unrealized. That is fighting spirit in action, even without a fight-- you have used your strength and force of will to prevent someone else from forcing your hand.

to fight with another is wrong but to lose a fight with another over principles you deem honourable is worse. to fight well is as proper as being able to study correctly or walk properly. by learning to fight, you are actually educating yourself to avoid battle. keiji tomiyama (tani-ha shito ryu karate)
every art should stress that fighting is the last resort, and most of them do.
my sensei said to me once you cant rip someones arm off just because he called you an asshole (read between the lines)
he also said be nice until its time to not be nice anymore
i think all martial arts teach people to avoid conflict if possible, if not they certainly should!
i think fighting spirit is simply that when the sh*t hits the fan you will fight, and fight HARD defending those principles you deem honourable.
look at okinawans defending their homes from japanese soldiers, look at the filipino people's will to fight when you try to take over their lands, look at the fighting spirit of viet nam...THAT IS FIGHTING SPIRIT!!! (to me anyway)

Okay, so we've established what fighting spirit is, or at least could be. But how does training in aikido develop it? We all have an inherent level of fight within us, we are after all studying an art of fighting, but does training in aikido do anything to increase our fighting spirit? Or, indeed, does it actually reduce it?

I'm not talking about determination, perseverance or anything like that. I mean specifically our willingness to fight and our preparedness to do so. Most aikidoka I meet will say that since they started training they are less likely to be involved in a fight than they were before they began aikido. I have no doubt that that was O'sensei's intention and he would be very glad to hear them say it, but it doesn't show a lot of fighting spirit, does it?

Budo

In answer to first post: no it doesnt matter to me.

In answer to your most recent: who cares?

You seem fixated upon competition and fighting without consideration of reasoning behind - maybe aikido is not for you ?

D

I don't consider the desire to fight to be "fighting spirit". Don't get me wrong, I love a good sparring session or rolling with some BJJ guys, but I have no desire to go out and fight someone. However, my MA training is certainly geared towards being able to defend myself and my loved ones should it be forced on me. And I don't mean insults or name calling, I mean the fight is brought to me.


I would agree with Mikey, that the essence of fighting spirit is never giving up. I would only add that this is opposed to the need to beat someone else. Any activity that pushes you past your self imposed limits and makes you a better person can be a tool to develop this.

Chris

Dazzler, you misunderstand me. I'm posing a question - not giving my opinion. At uni. a lecturer told me that to truly understand a subject, any subject, you need to be able to ague from a point of view contrary to your own. Only then can you fully understand the argument and make an informed decision.

I often argue from a point of view contrary to my own, in the hope that I will gain a better understanding of all sides of the debate as a result. Some people may call it playing Devil's advocate, I think of it as learning. Besides, it makes for a more interesting debate. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

kinda fun too isnt it cato [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
you said you were referring to our willingness to fight, this could be looked at from many points of view.
in accordance with aikido and my limited understanding of it, harmony with nature and love for all living things (not least of which is you and your loved ones) is a core part of aikido training....would it be accurate then to assume that your love for your family (honor and principles as well) would be hightened even further? would that not make you even more willing to fight even harder (if necessary) to protect and defend them? you mentioned perseverance (sp) i think that is a BIG part of fighting spirit, the desire to persevere, to protect you and yours at all costs...to realize that what you have IS worth fighting and possibly dying for (if its not...then its irrelevant to this discussion and you should not fight over it) and also realizing that NOONE has the right to take any of those things away from you.
then again....i think alot of your fighting spirit will only be realized out of necessity. BOOM you wake up in the middle of the night...to see some guy walking into your son's bedroom with a shotgun....what do you do? (besides shoot him [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG])...i seriously doubt you would think twice about attacking the guy possibly maiming or killing him or at the very least injuring him severely....good fighting spirit because you realize that your children ARE worth fighting and dying for....and because you wouldnt hesitate to do so. now how does martial arts training help develope that spirit....increased confidence in your abilities to take out an assailant=less fear=less hesitation, keeping "centered" with a calm mind (more so than without training)...as well as giving you the physical tools to do the job, also you will be more prepared for the physical attack ie..when and how to move, block, evade etc...or how to take a hit better than the average joe...things like this i think.
training in the dojo is like a forge where you hone your fighting spirit.
make any sense? lol


[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 11-13-2003).]

I'm not denying that most people, particularly those who choose to train in martial arts, already have fighting spirit. If they didn't have then they probably would have taken up something a bit more gentle, like knitting or crochet, rather than wanting to learn to fight. My question is more along the lines of how does aikido practice develop, enhance or give vent to this fighting spirit? Or does it in fact suppress it?

Budo

you teach aikido...you tell me. lol
have you lost your fighting spirit? since you still practice aikido i would guess not.
does it enhance your fighting spirit, not to sound too esoteric but i imagine only you could answer that question.

UKEMI! always better faster stronger! maybe THIS time! 'nuff said??

And IMHO tenkan moves reach their most convincing when you'd (in some sense) just as soon stand there and take it. "Never gonna move, nevergonnamove - tenkan!" (Also we say if you don't get hit once in a while, you're probably stepping too far offline.)

(OK, other version is "stupid face" - "duh? duh? tenkan!")

Maybe Kokikai signature technique is katatetori just-don't-get-pushed-back - maybe not for street, but gives lots of confidence for tenkan - less telegraphing, better posture, tighter timing, ...

Fighting spirit, I think.

Actually, I was going to post this in the "loss of ego - problem?" thread, but I couldn't find it today.

FYI Maruyama Sensei on confidence and one-point: you gotta be thinking "Kill? So what!"

[QUOTE]
posed by Cato

My question is more along the lines of how does aikido practice develop, enhance or give vent to this fighting spirit? Or does it in fact suppress it?
[/QUOTE]

First, I think we have to be careful not to confuse fighting spirit with simple blood lust. I don't think it is the desire to fight, but rather the will to do what must be done without regard for any external distraction.

Maybe a good way to define it would be "the ability to maintain concentration despite immediate threats to one's safety".

So I think aikido can teach us to do this in the same way that kata in other arts can-- we focus and practice to the exclusion of all else until nothing can break our concentration or dissuade us from our goal.

To me, this strikes at the heart of the paradox of aikido-- we select a technique which is determined by our attacker's action, but we perform the technique as if the attacker isn't there. Doing this takes a tremendous amount of concentration even in a controlled environment. Doing it when a determined attacker is trying to kill you is the essence of fighting spirit, IMHO.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]