After the lock? / After the pin?

In most of my aikido training, I have been taught that a technique ends in one of two ways: either you "throw the person away" and they roll from something like a kaiten-nage, of you control them and pin them with ikkyo into a standing pin for example.

However, I am off the belief that you probably shouldn't plan to end a street situation with a pin as there may be other people involved and at some point you have to let the pin off...

This leads to me to a couple of options in no particular order: break the limb, go down and choke them into unconsciousness, or let the pin go and run away.

I'm curious about how others might train, specifically as it translates into a self-defense or "street" situation. What kind of mindset do you have at that point?

Thanks for your input

Chris

Chris, I am sure you know my stand on this so I won't bore you with what I think, but will relate what my Sensei's have said. One, says on the ground, the body is up-side down, and you do things backwards on the ground than you do standing up. So on the ground, he starts with using his legs, because they are the closest weapon to the closest target. So he goes, legs then arms in this case. Another Sensei says, they need to end up on the ground, but I don't and he chooses to do what he calls 'shoe jobs' on them, kicking, stomping, rubbing your shoes all over his face, with stomps and kicks. Yet another Sensei stresses the use of knees, to ribs, to face, then break. Another Sensei, stresses break and run, so try to break the limb as they are going down, then when they hit the ground, knees to ribs. Another Sensei as I mentioned to you stresses taking out the arms, work the head and body, and finsih with stomps to the legs. How you choose to do this is up to you. Bottom line here is that you have the same options with the attacker down, as you do when they are up, you can strike them, kick them, lock them, choke them, or get on the ground with them. It is really what you want to accomplish

Sensei Lou,

We touched on a little bit of this on Thursday night. I was thinking of it this morning and thought I'd put it up.

I like the double knee work you showed, I've worked that in the past too. I'm going to have to try out the double open-hand followed by the combination strikes. I really haven't worked that one!

thanks

Chris

I was thinking about starting a thread about this, but it sort of applies here so before I diverge...

I don't know what I'd do. If my life was really in danger, I'd probably go for a break, the attacker is going to be alot less of a threat with a broken limb, especially if they've tried to strike with their dominant hand. I agree that kneeling pins might be a bit risky, but that's why one should keep her head up and stay on your toes. Seiza on your toes is a good position to move promptly in any given direction should the need arise.

That said, here's my sub-topic. We were working on pins the other day, and it came to light that there is no aikido pin that I can't get out of. With the exception maybe of excruciating torque being applied to my locked arm, I'm able to get out of the pins, and the sad thing is it isn't rocket science. I was working with one of my sensei's, a sandan who in my opinion is quite talented, and his response was, well, don't show anybody else in class (this was at a university club session with 75% newbies who we don't want to confuse).

But my sensei did make a good point. It was sort of neat in a way what I was doing, switching roles- once I was pinned I was no longer uke but nage working my way out of an attack. True, all aikido techniques do have counters, but does anyone else find this remotely disconcerting? If, in a real life self-defense situation, not like a mental health practitioner restraining a wacko, should we "go for the break?" And what legal ramifications would one be facing if they did so, even if the break was in self defense??

Joe.

[This message has been edited by Joe Jutsu (edited 09-27-2003).]

Hmmm...

I think most aikido pins as practiced are not "proper holds", but they can be with a little modification.

By proper hold, I mean a hold which has two elements, such that working against one causses the other to come into play. An axample would be locking someone's arm with one hand, and using the other hand to lock the neck. Working against the arm lock adds to the neck lock, and vice versa.

But, like Csinca pointed out earlier in the thread, now that you have him all locked up, what are you going to do with him? I hear the phrase "now we can talk about it" used a lot. I think it's risky to assume you can always talk someone down these days. Many are likely to go to their car and get the gun if you leave them capable of doing so.

This is one reason why I think it is so important to try to shake the urge to "police the world" as a way of validating your training or just helping out. Violence all too often escalates to an extreme these days. My plan is to leave the non-lethal controlling force to the professionals who have an obligation to protect those they arrest, and save mine for drunk uncles at weddings and horsing around with friends. No fights! But I guess we all have to decide where to draw the line ourselves.

First of all it depends on how you practice and what your mind set is. A "break" is nothing more than a lock continued. In the dojo I hold on a second or two after the persons taps for 2 reasons, 1. to let him know I can go further, 2. to reinforce to me that there is a break for every lock. If you practice the lock for the sake of the lock, you may have openings in the lock, if you practice the lock with the break in mind, the pressure is never let up on the lock till you want to release it. So again its how you practice. We spend more time on finishing locks than anything else and have all sorts of them. I like to say we have more locks than Dunkin has donuts. At last count, there were 55 finishing locks. I have heard all the arguments about tying yourself up and locks are easily escapable, but it depends on how much you practice them and how you do them. For every lock on the ground, I have a second or third one coming if necessary so if you escape 1 you will walk into another 1. But it takes practice, alot of practice. Another point, you have to soften the person on the ground up with strikes before the locks if you want utmost efficiency. Its better to to overwhelm them with strikes and then lock them up. This is our approach. Once again, I have heard things like you can't catch a Karate-ka kick. Its hard to do, but can be done if you practice catching kicks by a good kicker, not someone though, who really doesn't know how to kick. Locks don't work in real situations on the ground is another thing I have heard, they do if you practice them, so its about how you practice your locks, not about if they work or not.

Interesting question csinca...How about thinking outside the box a little...

Would any instructor actually advocate getting down on your knees to try a traditional lock in a street scenario?

Dojo practice is for the dojo...Use it to learn your art. When you are proficient you can be flexible in your thought processes and in a 'real' situation you can respond appropriately.

Dont go to the floor except as a last resort...Even if you are really good against a single opponent who's to say there aren,t some friend of your opponent about to walk around the corner. Will they stand and watch while you perfect that pin?

I'm with Lou on the strikes here. Get your strikes in and get away. Lock or strangle if you have no option.

Traditional pins in the dojo are fine for practice, balance, technical efficiency, deterity, use of body weight all come into play and they can demonstrate your skill nicely for gradings.

But thats not the same as dealing with a 'live one!'

Joe - Are you double jointed? I'd like to see you wriggle out of a correctly applied nikkyo finish or a jujitsu hammerlock. Especially if your partner introduced Lou's philosophy and gave you a couple of whacks for you pains.....Or even some of that excruciating torque.

Joe, I'm curious...how do you get out of a properly applied nikkyo or sankyo pin? Surely the very act of twisting and turning adds to the pressure of the lock? The reason I ask is that I have never come across anyone who can get out of them before, and it is something I have never considered.

I remember a while ago senseilou touched on a really important aspect of locks - he called it taking out the slack. If the slack is taken out of a lock there is very little room to manoeuvre yourself out of it without something breaking. If you can manoeuvre out of that, then I would suggest you are the exception rather than the rule, and the lock is still valid for the vast majority of people (they certainly work on me [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )

I think there is an good discussion to be had in the "what do you do with them now you've pinned them" scenario and I'd be interested to hear opinions on it.

Budo

Thanks for the feedback guys.

Dazzler - it sounds like you and I are on the same page. I pose the original question exactly for the reason you point out, pins are great for the dojo but what is their application in the street.

I also agree with Sensei Lou's comments on softening uke up with strikes, I now look for that from the first motion to the last.

When I mentioned using knees in my previous post, I wasn't refering to going down to the ground but rather getting in a couple of knee shots to any ribs that might be exposed, shoulders that might be stretched or necks/heads that might be in the area.

Mikey, I hear the same phrase and I agree that once things get to this point, talking is probably not going to have good success (unless you sink a floating rib with your entrance...)

It sounds like Joe and I (and possibly) Mikey are for the most part trained in the pin-tap-release cycle and are looking to add to our "reportoire". Sensei Lou takes things a bit further and adds some spice on the way.

Dazzler, how to you practice the "outside the box strike and get away" method? Do you practice/teach that in your dojo (punches pulled a bit so you can re-use the uke)?

Thanks

Chris

Didn't want that last post to go any longer but from a practical application, I think there may be others that feel they are safe once they execute a throw such as kaiten nage. The thought being that once the attack has ben received and dealt with and the attacker sent on his way, things are not back to harmony.

I'm no longer a big fan of throw aways as I prefer to keep'em close and off balance rather than have to start all over again.

Chris

Hi Chris

In our Aikido club its more discussed than practiced - with everything we try and give it a realistic stance and make sure that once the basics are instilled then everyone is aware of the dangers of traditional pins so don't confuse dojo practice with reality.

Its difficult to practice much attemi on a thrown uke. They dont like it too much and its a bit much when its their turn.

I've practiced it a lot more realistically within Goshin Jujitsu but essentially even within this the strikes are pulled. Incidentally knee pins featured extensively in exactly the way you describe as do stamps.

If I wanted to make a point of this when teaching I'd probably use 2 ukes. The dangers of pinning one and ignoring the other soon become very clear!

Respect

D

Chris

Nother thing we have in common...throwaways ..usually kokyoho nage.

Ok theres a time and a place for them but I'd favour throwing uke down. That way they are in reach of a stomp or axe kick if you need it.

For purely grading and dojo work it also shows you have uke under control rather than having uke escape a weak lock or throw by rolling away.

Cheers

D

Cato-

I very well maybe the exception, not the rule. No one showed me how to escape these pins, it just sort of came to me. I am pretty flexible, and maybe my wrestling background had something to do my ability to escape the pins... Who knows?

Anyway, to get out of a properly applied nikkyo pin (three palms up), I've found that if I "summersault" over my head it releases the pressure on the arm and leaves me in position to strike at the wide open side of nage, or maybe they're technically uke at this point. I've done this both while nage is setting the pin as well as after it's already been set, with all the slack taken out, and a painful amount of pressure being applied. Again, maybe I'm the exception and not the rule, but I've pulled this off on ikkyo as well as sankyo pins, never tried on a yonkyo pin, and I wouldn't probably try it on gokyo weapon takeaway pin, but then again I probably will so I'll get back to you.

Joe.

There are two points here. 1. the difference between a throw and a takedown. I do not like throws, here I mean projections, where the attaker has a chance to roll out or escape. My throws or projections would be into a wall, or on top of a car. In my mind, throws, kokyu-nage's, require that you let loose of the throw which allows the attacker a chance to come back again, chances are madder than before. You also have to deal with 'how' the throw will work if they do not know how to fall or roll. I prefer takedowns, even Iriminage and Koshinage I do as a takedown and stay on the attacker for my follow ups.
Secondly on Joes question of Nikkyo, he should know now how he can get out of the lock, if he will apply what he knows about Nikkyo he should be able to stop someone from getting out of it. Sounds nuts but this is how we work the locks. Joe says he can 'roll' out of the lock. That would tell me that there is an opening in my technique. So, now I will look at the technique and apply the Nikkyo so that the person can't roll. Here is the trick. Most of the time Nikkyo is performed 1 way, however there are many ways to perform the lock. You can apply the lock to the attackers center, this way you keep someone like Joe from rolling out of it. You can apply the lock downward spiral like a downward block and freeze them in place. You can apply the lock to your center, his arm pit, back at his face, in a long stance, in a cat stance, in a horse stance. I like to apply the lock to them, then to me, this way, I set them up for a left hook, after the lock. My point is this, try to reverse the lock and find how to get out of the lock, take what you learn and apply the lock so they can't get out that way. I probably have more versions of Nikkyo than any other lock. We believe in multiple locking and working up the arm, so Nikkyo itself, may well start at fingers, then go to the wrist, then to the elbow. Another major point here is this, just because someone locks, doesn't mean he won't strike. If Joe would be able to roll out of the lock,with me, he would roll into a kick/knee, or in some cases I apply Nikkyo and bring the attacker in for a knee, then send him backward keeping the lock the entire time. Every lock can be reversed, it takes study to find out how to reverse the reverse and apply your technique in such a way, that reverses won't work, or they walk into your strikes. I know this is not Aikido mind set, though I never said it was. The question here is about a lock, not an Aikido lock. Remember too, other styles use locks that are similar and use other aspects of their art to stop reverses. Chin Na grabs muscles, tendons etc, to prevent reverses. Lua, use bites to prevent anything, we try to peel the skin off the person. I'm sure Chris will atest to the usefulness of the bites

Ouch.

Just to be clear though, we aren't talking about bites with the teeth but with the hand. Though I'm sure they can be done using feet.

chris

i agree with sensei lou..again...as usual.
a properly (thats the key) applied joint lock does work.
thats not to say im gonna get you in an armbar and then laugh and boast haha i got you in a lock...no you are gonna bend forward into a nice hard front kick to the face [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
and i think the key to making joint locks work is as lou stated...keep on the pressure and learn to keep the lock applied to a moving opponent (see wally jay for a great demonstration of this)...in other words apply constant pressure...which traslates into constant pain. all the while though you should be striking as well...before during and after the lock.

[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 10-01-2003).]

I was referring to knealing pins, and we don't do armbars in my style of aikido, although the posibility is certainly their (think kaiten nage).

Joe

forgive me and my "modern" approach...but if the possibility is there...then the technique is there and you should learn to use it....at least in my opinion. so basically as i see it...armbars ARE in your style of aikido...even though you may not practice them actively. it was used as an example only anyway...any lock can be applied...
for kneeling pins and locks...id say unless you want to wait there and hold them in that position all day...you need to strike them. or in some other way effectively take them out of the fight...or take the fight out of them whichever the case may be.

I know it's just semantics, but aikido is a modern martial art so we're all taking a "modern approach."

I see what you're saying kempo, but I'm missing how you could afford to let go with one hand during a knealing pin without uke gettin up and perhaps making you pay for it.

Joe.

Joe

Next time you try kotagaeshi and Uke smiles up at you just before you turn him over, try the following;

face stamp to remove the smile (optional)..
we use nikkyo finish for kotagaeshi...others may not...anyway if he's (or she...) is face down use one knee on the back of head / neck.

You could find that you dont need either hand especially if you amend your nikkkyo and lock ukes straight arm against your chest and lean in with some of that torque you like so much.

Alternatively ... As youve turned Uke over, fight that urge to stamp ukes head and instead place nearest foot against Ukes head (ear pin available if they are dumbo-esque... facing in same direction as them.. bring their straight extended arm up and rest it on the furthest leg from them and you again might have a juicy pin with minimal need for hand control. ...Again fight that urge to stamp down over their straightened elbow as you lift arm into position.

Finally ...look at a traditional niikkyo finish...look at the similarities with a jujitsu hammer lock..You can get this on with a jo stick, your leg, your walking stick or just about anything...If uke fights it bang it on...If they relax then you can relax a bit too...

This may satisfy even your wriggling wrestler urges...

D

kneeling=me kneeling...and my opponent flat on the ground, probably with me on top of him (this also aids in immobilization) place your knee on his arm...and put your weight on it...and hit em.
you can also use a one handed wrist lock on the ground....at any rate as long as you keep constant pressure on whatever lock you have...uke cant really do much....you can pin someone using more than just your arms...infact its probably better to do so...that way you can wail on em lol
pressure points are especially good for pinning someone...if you know where to put your knee for instance....

Joe, I think it probably in the definition of "pin" that we are confusing each other. I would consider a nikkyo pin is complete only once uke is prone, face down and locked out. That would make it very difficult to escape from without first dislocating your neck/shoulder.

Budo

Cato (and others),

If I'm face down on the ground and you have my left hand/arm, how are you applying a nikkyo pin? I'm sure we are just using different names for the same thing (we actually don't name the pins for some reason) but I'm trying to viualize this.

From my perspective, nikkyo creates a "z" shape in the arm (borrowing Sensei Lou's description). If I'm face down with both shoulders on the ground, is my arm flat on the mat or in the air for the "nikkyo" pin.

Thanks

Chris

Sorry Chris, I missed this question from you before. An honest mistake, I'm wasn't trying to avoid the issue or anything like that [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

For me a nikkyo pin would leave uke face down with the "nikkyo'd" arm raised and held in the "Z" position you described. If I am applying the lock to your left arm then the back of your left hand will be on or near to my right shoulder if I'm kneeling beside you. My right forearm will be across your forearm and my left forearm across your upper arm. The lock is applied by me straigtening my back and lifting your arm to take out the slack, leaning across your shoulders and turning toward your head.

Having re-read that I'm not quite sure i understand it myself, but it is hard to put into words. Hope it gives you some idea of what I mean anyway.

Budo

I think Chris knows where I stand here, but here is another point. If we will talk technique(which I really don't like to do)if you look at Nikkyo, the standing version and the pinning version can't be the same by the sheer nature of the takedown.In order to take them down you need to to straighten the arm, if you keep the arm bent, they can escape as they go down,so once down, another form of the Nikkyo must take place. Aikido purists won't accept other variations of the Nikkyo, but why bend the arm again. There are so many variations on the pin, Cato describes the 'formal' Nikkyo pin. Fujitana Sensei showed Nikkyo as a "z" lock, then pushed the elbow to the floor to straighten the arm but the wrist was still bent. With uke on the ground, she put her knee on the elbow and bent uke's wrist(pushed his wrist to his shoulder)till he tapped. One of the best Aikido nikkyo's I have seen. The key to any pin is that the pressure is on the lock all the way to the pin, and the pin does not allow slack in the arm before they pin it. The problem with the lock Cato describes is not the lock, but how people apply it. Most people take uke's hand to their arm, which creates slck, the proper way is to bring your arm to ukes hand which keeps the shoulder locked the entire time. For me, nikkyo focuses on the wrist, so I care less what the arm does, and I keep the lock on, the pressure continuely until the lock is in place.

Cato,

I'm not sure of what you are describing...it sounds like what we call the "baby cradle" pin but in that case I would say the arm is in more of a "c" shape.

but if I take the hand and point it up instead of across the back, maybe that is what you are talking about. Hopefully I'll be on the mat soon and able to try it out.

Chris

I think a choke, strangle, arm break, or atemi waza would do a good finishing...

Heck man don't wait to start over...throw away and run...

My instructors say dislocate, leaving the limb useless, a drunk person may stil fight with a broken limb, but dislocated is impossible, also, I think the legal consequences of a dislocated joint would be less serious than a break.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Robaikido:
My instructors say dislocate, leaving the limb useless, a drunk person may stil fight with a broken limb, but dislocated is impossible, also, I think the legal consequences of a dislocated joint would be less serious than a break. [/QUOTE]

Just an idle notion...on the subject of practicality; if your defence technique was applied properly; eg ikkyo, shouldnt the aggresor be out of the fight anyway? having been thrust through the pavement/dancefloor?
personally i'd never ever go for a pin in the street...depending on the severity of the attack of course, if its a mugger/rapist weilding a weapon id not hesitate for a moment to stamp on his/her head till they were completely out and flee for safety! its worth being aware of the possibility that they have accomplices who will hoof your head of like a football while your concentrating, or even worse, kneeling down pinning there mate.
Ive seen young men get up from being stamped on, arms/hands/fingers broken, people arnt the asme when there on drugs/alcohol, wether its dislocated or not, if there willing to attack you; (these people obvioulsy arnt in the same frame of mind as the rest of us, well the ukes in my club dont run around attacking strangers a lot anyway:-) Also legal consequeses should be absolutely at the back of your mind in conflict, my sensei once told me its better to be judged by twelve than carried by six..if the situation calls for it do whatever it takes to win!

i find that in situations where a pin is absolutely nessecary, you cant beat a good choke...unconciousness being the ultimate submission there is. yours in training

I think once again it depends on who is doing the technique and how its applied and to who. You can say ikkyo can put a person crashing to the ground, but a good street fighter may not let you get it. On the other hand somone who has never felt it before may go to the ground in pain, and finally how you perform the ikkyo itself. We use our elbow and if we were to use ikkyo as a self defense technique(which we don't- the use of Ikkyo in our school is the mother of all other techniques we learn from the ikkyo)it would be a dislocation not a lock, so we dislocate form the beginning. Alot of people think it takes too long to apply the lock. Depends on how you practice. Some people can get a lock before others can punch. It all depends. Also it depends on the situation, sometimes a control might be better than a choke if its a relative or friend. There should be weapons for every situation. I agree in serious situations to go for the neck and a choke is a good way to do this. Neck throws where the neck is twisted to the point of pain so bad they pass out is another option, so it really depends on who, and what the situation is.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the504mikey:
Hmmm...

I think most aikido pins as practiced are not "proper holds", but they can be with a little modification.

By proper hold, I mean a hold which has two elements, such that working against one causses the other to come into play. An axample would be locking someone's arm with one hand, and using the other hand to lock the neck. Working against the arm lock adds to the neck lock, and vice versa.

But, like Csinca pointed out earlier in the thread, now that you have him all locked up, what are you going to do with him? I hear the phrase "now we can talk about it" used a lot. I think it's risky to assume you can always talk someone down these days. Many are likely to go to their car and get the gun if you leave them capable of doing so.

This is one reason why I think it is so important to try to shake the urge to "police the world" as a way of validating your training or just helping out. Violence all too often escalates to an extreme these days. My plan is to leave the non-lethal controlling force to the professionals who have an obligation to protect those they arrest, and save mine for drunk uncles at weddings and horsing around with friends. No fights! But I guess we all have to decide where to draw the line ourselves.

[/QUOTE]

To answer the question, "what do you do once you have them in a lock": I was taught and extremely efficient and painful lock which enabled you to free your hands.

Once uke is pinned down on the floor and you are knelt beside him, move his arm up so his wrist is resting on your shoulder. Keep the closet knee just above his shoulder and place your other foot on his forehead. Once you have done this, he can't move and your hands are free to use your mobile phone (cellular if your American) to call the police.

Obviously this should only be used if there are no other dangers.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Chanters:

Once uke is pinned down on the floor and you are knelt beside him, move his arm up so his wrist is resting on your shoulder. Keep the closet knee just above his shoulder and place your other foot on his forehead. Once you have done this, he can't move and your hands are free to use your mobile phone (cellular if your American) to call the police.

Obviously this should only be used if there are no other dangers.
[/QUOTE]

Sonds a bit like the "Omo Palata" of brazillian jiujitsu.

I used to get up from almost everyone's yonkyo. One of the strong sandan uchideshis of the dojo I was visiting in Japan could bring me to the ground, then I'd start to get up and he could bring me to the ground again - but that was the best I'd seen.

Eventually one of my friends explained to me that you have to pin in such a way that their spine is stuck to the floor and showed me - repeatedly. I'm a believer.

When I take nikkyo ukemi, I always maintain the integrity of my arm so that weak-pinners feel they don't have me. Strong pinners generally laugh and pin me anyway. I always take the stretch and then slap no matter what because after-all I don't want them to do a sudden and jerky movement while I'm in that position.

Why try to resist to begin with? When I practicce and am in 'practice' mode, (not learning mode), resist me or try and reverse me, I will go the extra mile to inflict pain, and will not release the lock when you tap, as a matter of fact won't release it till I am good and ready, the tap means nothing to me. When you are in learning mode, its not anyone's place to teach a lesson and resist or reverse. If you can't respect the process, and give and take, then I will crank the lock till tears are in your eyes. This behavior drive me nuts.

First its resisting the pin, then the technique. No wonder one can resist the technique or the pin, they know whats coming, so its easy to resist. Its about learning NOT that you can resist or reverse. I had a Sensei who specializes in reversing, and how to stop locks, but you do it in a class when your not suppose to you get nailed. I have seen many students who think they are 'above' the process and resist and try to reverse everything.When they encounter me and I feel the least bit resistance or reversing, I take it to the next level. I study a style that incorporates counter when people try to get up, we actually help them up(go with the flow) lockem again and this time its time for a face plant, since they didn't learn the first time.

At a recent seminar a blue belt informed my son(a Godan) that he was going to resist everything he did to offer some challenge. My son took it easy at first, and then the blue belt pronounced, "thats why I resist to show you black belts your not as good as you think you are".My son, at the next opportunity, not locked him up not once, but 3 different times, applying pain the entire time, took the lock into a choke, did a Koshi from the choke, went into the mount, and choked him out. As my son walked away he said, "resist that"!

If you decide to resist or try to reverse, you should expect to get treated roughly. Its not part of the equation, unless the insrtuctor says to resist or reverse.Alot of people don't like my approach to this, and frankly I don't care, but students do not have the right to resist or reverse another student, while they are trying to lean the technique or pin, unless the Sensei encourages it.

Amen to that. Sensei Lou it should be no surprise that I agree with that last post.

If I'm in learning mode with someone that is teaching, I would never dream of trying to "teach them a lesson" for a number of reasons, but not the least of which is if I'm gonna spend the time with someone to learn from them, I expect that they couls hurt me if they put their mind to it.

If I'm just working out with someone, then there has to be some level of trust but then you can build up to the "what ifs" and reversals.

I think alot of it comes down to people without much experience not realizing:

a. their partner is taking it easy in the spirit of training and not hurting anyone

b. quite often they are open to much more than the one technique they think they are reversing.

I still don't understand why someone laying on their stomach at my feet would think that resisting my pin is in any way shape or form teaching me a lesson. I can only imagine they don't understand that their ribs are stretched out and exposed at my feet...

Of course some would say that's not aikido, but that is another story!

Chris

Hi Chris, glad to see you back. Here is something else I think you will agree with. For some odd reason, people think that when you have a pin, and someone can get out of the pin, that you still have to apply a lock. I think you will agree if they escape my lock they will walk into a barrage of strikes. Like you said, why would someone on their stomach, fight the pin, when they can't see whats coming next. The "UFC" mentality of ground and pound, has taught people that when you go to the ground, you can strike as well as lock. If you look at Kajukembo, they have what they call "ad libs", once a person is on the ground you go into a 'freestyle' of sorts combining striking, kneeing and kicking. One of my Sensei who dresses extremely well says he spends too much money on clothes to go to the ground and tear them up. He agrees with me, that the attacker needs to be on the ground but not necessarily for us to go down with them. He relies on what he calls a 'shoe job' and once the attacker is down, he gets a good workover with his feet, stomps, kicks etc. Now I realize that this is not the Aiki way, but nonetheless very effective. If someone tried to stand up after I pinned them, why not stomp him like Irish River dancing? When I put someone down now, after hearing Professors philosophy, I have a transiton state, before I apply the lock.
So in answer to the original question, "after the lock", when they go to the ground, they may be struck, followed by a pin, they may be kicked, stomped, followed by a pin, or they may be locked followed by stikes. Professor showed me how to put someone on their back, strike the groin and chin with the back of your hands, drop both knees in their ribs(I put one on the hip and one on shoulder or arm to stop any movement)then wrap the arm -step over and put them on their side or stomach, and now, you decide how much more you want to dish out. Once again I know most Aikidoka will think this excessive, and not very Aiki, I agree, but if people are going to resist or reverse, why not take that away from them before they do. My point in all this rambling, is just because you are locked doesn't mean I still won't unload a barrage of strikes, knees or kicks, if you try to counter.

Sensei Lou,

Your last post reminds me of some of the double strikes you use after a throw/takedown!

Just a week ago we were doing some groundwork and the Sensei was showing how you can "loosen up" a position to "encourage" the other person to move, turn, sit up etc... in a direction where they move right into your strikes.

Again, not what most would consider aiki but it fits with my philosophy.

Chris

I don't know about this practice mode versus learning mode, or any other mode. It sounds interesting. There is learning and assimulation but I generally find time to do whichever I need without needing my partner(s) to be in the same mode with me.

I try to take ukemi in such a way that I protect myself as best as I can while maintaining the attack. I always give up balance for the sake of safety. I always try to put my our body weight right where the nage is going. I always try to keep nages working very hard but never completely stopping them - as that is not very helpful for people much under sandan. I encourage everyone to train in a way that builds up towards maximum resistance - with respect to danger of course...

I believe that you were not supposed to resist anything until sandan to avoid bad habits, but I think we can say do not stupidly resist things, and developing the full body resistivity is a good thing for all.

If someone is pinning me in aikido, my opinion is that they should be balancing me so well that it is very hard for me to get up. If a nage trys a joint lock in any way other than to stretch the uke out then I would probably consider that nage unsafe to practice with. If a teacher does it once to make a point, then that teacher might have to consider why they are losing students... In my opinion, no teacher should let their students actively try to accomplish ego-satisfaction in aikido as that is going the reverse way down the path (aiki OD ?)

Rob

If a nage trys a joint lock in any way other than to stretch the uke out then I would probably consider that nage unsafe to practice with.

Here is my point, if you are learning to pin, you go slow and 'stretch someone out as you say. But when we go into practice mode, its with the mind set of practice like you play. I have a bit of a problem with strtching someone out in a real situation. Our pins are to disable the attacker and keep from attacking again. So if you kkep practicing with being easy on the pin, it will come back to you this way in self-defense mode. But if you don't practice for self-defense in mind, then its not necessary. As for me, I don't think you would feel safe with me, and I really don't care if the student likes it or not. If I don't have alot, thats fine. I'd rather have 3-4 who like to understand and practice hard, than a class of 20 who just want to walk the motions. Aiki is directed more toward harmony. Having done it, felt it, and applied it,its not the same as doing it the way you would for real. One needs to know how it feels for real, and apply it for real, so you can when it counts. So I am not very 'harmonic' like most Aikidoka

Rob,

I think these last two posts come back around to the question I started with. In practical application (not in the dojo but "in the street") would you actually finish off with a controlled pin? In much of my aikido career I have been trained to "go slowly" (granted we don't want o injure our uke in class or else you run out of training partners) and "give uke a good stretch". While I'm uke I've been told to "relax into the pin and feel the stretch", that sort of thing.

Now I can certainly understand this for learning the mechanics of the pin and safe ukemi, but I can't see this being translated into a dark parking lot.

Hypothetical example: I'm coming home from a business trip one evening and I'm in the parking lot at LAX. Some guy comes at me with that evil gleam in his eye (and a beer bottle in his hand, just for effect). I for one wouldn't be thinking, okay I need to pin this guy nice and slowly and be careful not to hurt him; but that is how most pinning finishes are taught and practiced (in the dojos and seminars thta I've been to).

So I guess the question is how do you (everyone reading this) train to translate that smooth and easy stretch/pin, into something that you would use in a dark parking structure at 11pm?

Chris

PS: I'm hoping for training methods, not "change your mindset"

Thanks

Rob,

On the learning mode versus practice mode, these are the terms we use, not to imply that we ever stop learning or stop practicing but an indication of the degree of freedom we (nage and uke) have.

Learning mode would be working on a specific technique or set of principles usually from a given attack. Maybe today we are working on nikkyo from a lapel grab and in particular staying connected to the uke throughout the structural lock. In this case the nage knows the attack and the uke knows what is going to happen. If nage is having difficulty maintaining the structural lock (nikkyo) they will try different angles and directions until they find it, maybe with some help from the uke. In this cas uke isn't going to retract their hand and reattack.

However, maybe at the end of class my partner and I will "workout" which means uke choses the attack, timing, tempo etc and nage is not restricted to one path. If the nikkyo doesn't come on the uke is going to retract that hand and reattack while the nage may give up the nikkyo and use atemi, a lower body lock, enter to break balance or tenkan out to create distance....

I hope that makes sense. I also hope that I'm still learning when I "workout" and that my learning is still practice!

Chris

So I guess the question is how do you (everyone reading this) train to translate that smooth and easy stretch/pin, into something that you would use in a dark parking structure at 11pm?

I think you know what I am going to say Chris, but I will say it and let everyone have a shot at good ole Senseilou.

To answer the question I don't. All our pins are predicated on doing some damage, minor damage to sprain or hyper-extend muscles to major breaking bones. As Chris will attest to, we use many pins from many styles, but they all have one thing in common, PAIN!!
I understand why people train the way they do, but I feel, especially when it comes to pins, they need to be brutal. The 'finish' of the technique is the last straw. If you mess up your entry and are not in position you can make up for that or adapt, same is true for your technique. If you are not right on, and you don't get the desired effect fron your attacker, you can compensate. But when it gets to the finish, you really don't have time to screw around, as one minor mistake and your attacker is right back on you, which is why I don't like throws, or rather projections(unless into a wall or on top of a car hood)because if they know how to land, they can be back in a moment. The response I always hear here is that the fall should do the damage and most people don't know how to take the fall. this is probably true, but I don't want to stake my body or my life that they don't know, I'd rather control them with a takedown. The definiton between throw and takedown is the throw is let go, and projects them. I don't buy into the breakfall thing at all. Most people can't chew come and walk much less breakfall. That is an escape mechanism anyway. So I feel you need total control, and letting them stretch out is not in my book. I put them where I want them and apply what we call a pain compliance None of our pins are just to hold down they all hurt and can cause breaks. Remember a break is a lock continued, and when dealing with the elbow it doesn't take alot.

If the crazy beer bottle attacker wants to attack me, I'd definately move until they committed to an attack that I could use a basic technique on. I'm not sure I need to pin this person on the ground, but if I did, they would end up stretched out and as balanced on the floor as possible. They would not get up while we talked about why they were trying to hit me with the bottle in the first place unless someone else was coming to join the party. If it stayed just the two of us and it didn't look like things were going to resolve themselves (like waiting for crazy bottle guy's medication to kick in) I might just try to tie that person up with the belt of my pants.

This thread is called "after the pin or lock" but I think the anwer lies "before the pin or lock". I put the majority of the pin on the person while they are still up contributing to the overall movement. Then they hit the floor and no longer have anywhere to go to lesson the torque so we call them pinned. When I'm stretching someone out, they are more than welcome to try to get up!!! But the idea is to do minimum harm.

Ideally they should be immediately controlled the moment you touch them - which we are all still working on.

You also have to consider that you need to be able to immediately be able to let go and defend another attacker.

Don't get me wrong, I'm okay with a reasonable amount of pain. I think you draw the line at torture. If you hold someone down and slowly rip their shoulder off then that's torture and you have a big ego problem and are probably mentally imbalanced.

I think that this goes to the core issue of where do you feel safe? How at peace with yourself are you? How refined is your movement? Do you need to run to a room and lock the doors to feel safe from someone that wants to hit me with a beer bottle? If you wouldn't feel just as safe standing in an open field with the crazy bottle guy, I think your aikido needs a lot more practice (mine does!).

Rob

Rob,

I really like this part of your post:

"This thread is called "after the pin or lock" but I think the anwer lies "before the pin or lock". I put the majority of the pin on the person while they are still up contributing to the overall movement. Then they hit the floor and no longer have anywhere to go to lesson the torque so we call them pinned"

And

"Ideally they should be immediately controlled the moment you touch them - which we are all still working on."


This is a concept that I've been taught and I've worked on many times but I tend to forget. Thanks for reminding me!

Chris

I know I keep coming off like Atilla the Hun, but this mindset I think is very dangerous. You can talk to someone all you want, but if he came out you with a broken bottle, hes not going to turn passive out of the blue. I had this same problem at the school I attended , all talk, no action. There is a saying, "talk doesn't cook the rice". In controlling an attacker it takes pain to neutralize the the person. How many times as a kid to you do something to the kid and tell him to say "Uncle or I quit" only to have him come back at you. One of our instructors tried to talk a woman out of shop lifting, and did every technique he knew and could not subdue her. The reason is you practice like you play, and if you don't have the mind set to neutralize, they have no reason not to come back again. I know also that the more you move away from an attacker you are adding to his momentum, and strength. You must disipate your attackers energy or destroy hs attack. Sen No Sen, attack the attack.

I hate to come across like this all the time, but you reason with reasonable people. In a parking lot, with a person with a bottle, is not a resonable person, to reason with him, is ludicrous. I know Aikido is about harmony, but that works in the dojo. Sorry to say, if a person is desperate enough to come at you once, he will come again.

Here is a little story for you. I had a student who's father had trained in Aikido and felt he was further along then he was. He was constantly telling me how to teach, what I should teach, and the approach to teach. I had this for about a year, and just shrugged it off. I was at a festival and met an old friend and he told me he was sorry I lost my dojo. I looked at him like he was nuts and asked him what he was talking about, I still had my dojo. He told me this father had told him I lost the dojo and was out of the arts. Nonsense was my reply. Saw another teacher and he asked what was the real story about my dojo. I answered "what story. That father told him I was arrested for 'child abuse' in my classes, and lost all my students, and dojo. I was furious, this was my reputation at stake. When I saw the father again, I asked him what his problem was and he denied everything and started to talk to me and analyze my mean streak. He tried talking to me about the tennets of O'Sensei and the philosphy of AIkido, and though he knew I was mad, it was a boulder I had to get over. I agreed with him then hit him right in the mouth is hard as I could. Moral of the story is this, if someone is hell bent on attacking you, the talk stops, and the attack must be nuetralized AND a lesson taught or they will continue to attack.

You should contantly get yourself into the position where you can do maximum damage to the attacker and then from that position choose to do the minimum ammount of damage to them to keep yourself safe. This is the only way aikido has any chance of working.

In certain situations, the minimum damage you need to do to stay safe might just also happen to be maximum damage. However, I think it is just as important to know what you are choosing not to do as it is constantly making the choice to do minimal damage.

I still say my pins work well enough by stretching. If I need to break something, it doesn't require a whole lot of practice and/or an engineering degree to figure out how to destroy a body part that has been stretched and immobalized.

You become the mind you train. If you train to hurt people then that is going to be your response when pressed. If you train to do minimal damage, then that's what you are going to do.

I agree that a crazy attacker isn't going to be talked down - but I have been immobalized without pain and I have also seen a lot of the craziness leave an attacker when their balance gets taken from them - they find themselve volnerable and then NOT taken further advantage of. It really depends on the threat level - which has a lot to do with your depth in understanding and ability and also the craziness / toughness of the attacker...

I certainly agree that it is dangerous to have the attitude that you'll be able to talk yourself out of a situation and have no other choices. I can't and wouldn't want to argue that. I think my main concern is that I would like to raise awareness to the idea that it is also dangerous - possibly more dangerous - to actively train violence in ego gratifying ways that end in triumphant shouts of "block that!" or whatever it was.

It should be that you drop down in levels of sophistication as needed, but if you are not training to at start at minimim damage, then I question if you are really doing aikido. The police have a lot of power, and we require them to exhibit this behavior. We require them to somewhat match the level of violence they use on someone who is attacking them. So if someone yells at a cop, the cop doesn't get to shoot him. Similarly, if someone says the cop looks fat in those pants the cop doesn't get to punch them in the face. As a society, we hold people of power to these kind of standards for a good reason. There is a difference between defending yourself and just satisfying your ego.

I read somewhere (maybe here) that one of the aikido guys felt something like 'in quest to develop the ultimate combat effective art that can be learned in 2 years we are loosing a lot of the value of studying martial arts' or something like that - I can't do it justice. I've been thinking about this because for some reason I liked it, but I disliked it too. I finially realize that the reason is that I think it would be great for everyone to take 2 years and learn that ultimate combat ready defense system and get that out of the way so we can move on to studying valuable daily practices like aikido devoid of the fear of what would happen if...

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-17-2004).]

oopse

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 03-02-2005).]

So far, no one has mentioned pulling the person up short on the throw or making the projection circle smaller (almost linear/spiral) so that the attacker falls incorrectly. Just thought I'd mention this as another option.

On the topic of the traditional ikkyo/nikkyo pin, they are simply principles of the straight armbar/break and rear-arm entanglement (ura ude gatame) respectively.

My biggest gripe with the "traditional" approach is two-fold:
1. We do not do the multitude of variations to see the myriad configurations and possibilities of the principles in application. We only learn it this (one) way and that's it.

2. We do not take the pin beyond to the next technique and the next, so we never learn the follow-ups and follow thru. Unless you actively practice it, you are relegated to learning this on this fly, and hopefully not in a SD situation!

Since I started learning jujitsu, I am seeing a lot of where the original techniques come from and how it has changed. (Sure it may not be aikijitsu, but O'Sensei also did Kito-Ryu and Shinkage-Ryu, so who's to say that it did not come from there?)

It took me a few weeks to modify my throwing "style" and I've found that I have much better control on my locks and pins, than most of the guys here that have been practising jujitsu for a lot longer than I have. Coming from aikido first and knowing what I (now) know has certainly been a big advantage.

So, it is not necessary to throw out the so-called "traditional" pins. Each of the 1st 5 forms (ikkyo->gokyo) are what's called "mother" techniques. They are simply principles/vehicles for exploring other technical variations. To limit yourself to these as the "be-all-and-end-all" of techniques would be somewhat self-defeating.

And as senseilou says, you have to practice as you play. You have to explore the myriad variations and possibilities, as what is covered in the curriculum of most modern aikido schools is a limited subset of the entire body of knowledge of human movement.

eeyrie,

It's interesting to review this thread with some time having passed. I'll add a couple comments.

As for "making the projection circle smaller", I haven't trained in big circle projections for years. We make that circle as tight as possible and most throws are "straight down" which makes the traditional big rolling ukemi result in a nose-meets-knee type of flop. In fact after working out at another dojo, one of the comments to my sensei and I was "you guys sure like to throw down"... There are only a couple of scenarios where I could imagine throwing someone "out" rather than down.

Secondly, having spend a lot more of my time cross training in the last two years, I tend to react a bit differently after I'm taken down in a lock or throw. Getting back to my very first post on this thread, things aren't over when uke hits the ground, and Im just learning how interesting things really are at that point.

And I still find that most aikido that I've seen lately is trained with the assumption that once uke hits the ground, particularly after a throw, it's done.

Chris

Chris,

Couldn't agree more.

eeyrie,

If I'm ever in Australia I'll look you up!

Chris

Sure mate. Send me a PM.

Hi Chris,

I'm curious. Now that you have had a lot of time to think about this, what do you do/suggest after the pin/lock?

Rob

Rob,

Come on out to Southern California and I'll buy lunch!

Warning, my answer is not going to be very aikido-like...

First of all, it always depends on the situation. My neighbor at a BBQ gets different treatment than the big biker dude in the airport parking garage at night, not that I have anything necessarily against big biker dudes!

In general I have changed my position a bit as I take people to the ground to allow me to be over them with posture and the option to drop knees into ribs, and various strikes and kicks. I also tend to look at pins more from a standpoint of how I would step through a particular pin to separate a joint.

As I take ukemi I look for ways to either kick nage on the way down or take their balance once I hit the ground. As I get more comfortable with grappling I am starting to see other opening to tak enage down with me.

I guess for me the pin isn't the end just because that's where most techniques stop in the dojo. I've been looking for continuations and ways to stop the continuations.

Chris

troll squashing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by csinca:
In most of my aikido training, I have been taught that a technique ends in one of two ways: either you "throw the person away" and they roll from something like a kaiten-nage, of you control them and pin them with ikkyo into a standing pin for example.

However, I am off the belief that you probably shouldn't plan to end a street situation with a pin as there may be other people involved and at some point you have to let the pin off...

This leads to me to a couple of options in no particular order: break the limb, go down and choke them into unconsciousness, or let the pin go and run away.

I'm curious about how others might train, specifically as it translates into a self-defense or "street" situation. What kind of mindset do you have at that point?

Thanks for your input

Chris[/QUOTE]

It would depend on your situation. If you were a bouncer you'd have to get him back up and escort him outside. If you were a police officer you should put the hand cuff on him. If you're in a self defense situation you could yell for help, run, try to finish them off if you thought they might get up to continue the attack. I train to hand cuff in most situations but that may not be an option for most people. Anyway, it would depend on the situation.

in my class, after we have the person pinned, we do a sort of finishing blow to the head area, but it is more symbolic of the technique being finished than it is an actual part of the technique, although im sure it is a good option in a real fight.