Secrets of Aikido

I've read numerous sources claiming that the secrets of karate are hidden in the kata. I was wondering if anyone here feels that the "true essence" of aikido is found "between the lines" of kumiwaza. To what extent do you agree or disagree with this presumption?

I think the secret has to be "hidden between the lines". I have always viewed the techniques practiced in aikido as sign posts pointing to the "truth" of aikido rather than as actual expressions of the truth themselves.

In other words, the techniques illustrate certain concepts that are almost universal in their applicability.

I think the attacks practiced are highly stylized for just that reason-- to allow someone to get the "feel" for aiki.

To parlay that feeling, which amounts to "knowing aiki when I see it" into actual practice requires a deeper level of understanding, going "beyond technique" as is often said.

At that point, I think the practitioner progresses beyond merely becoming familiar with aiki by experiencing it in scripted, stylized attacks to being able to *create* aiki from random situations. That's my theory anyway... I'll let you know if/when it works out for me. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Yes that has been my point all along. If Aikido eliminate Atemi because it is non-aggressive then Aiki-Jutsu and all other Aiki (non-aggressive) arts should do the same to acheive this. I don't think Aikido was meant to be a less brutal art at all.
Aikido can be brutal and yet non-aggressive like other Aiki arts.

-Shotokan

Shotokan-

First off, aiki does not mean non-aggressive. Second off, aikido was never meant to be brutal. Quite the opposite actually. I have to ask, have you ever stepped onto an aikido mat, or even been in an aikido dojo before? If you've ever watched a class then you might have a different opinion.

Joe.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Joe Jutsu:
Shotokan-

First off, aiki does not mean non-aggressive. Second off, aikido was never meant to be brutal. Quite the opposite actually. I have to ask, have you ever stepped onto an aikido mat, or even been in an aikido dojo before? If you've ever watched a class then you might have a different opinion.

Joe.[/QUOTE]

Can you honestly break a guys wrist and tell me that's not brutal (Ai) Harmony (Ki) Energy (Do) Way. Being in harmony with your opponents energy? Is this what it means?

-Shotokan

Aikido is not about breaking wrists!

The possibility is certainly there in certain techniques (kotegaeishi), but a remotely proficient aikidoka has enough tricks up his sleeve to apply the appropriate technique in any given situation. It would be extremely difficult to break a wrist doing ikkyo, IMHO. Not all schools of aikido even do kotegaeishi, or wrist turn anymore. It has been adapted to koteoroshi, or wrist drop for various reasons, which I'm sure the safety of uke is not the least of those reasons.

If aikido was so brutal, then why is it taught to police forces and mental health fascilitators who face nearly daily violent situations, situations where it is not kosher to say the least to take down the attacker with "brutal techniques." Restraint, not damage, is the goal in these scenarios, exactly what aikido was designed to do.

You want to see brutal, then check out Muy Thai.

Joe.

Joe is on the right track here. Aikido "techniques" are designed to be skeletal locks. If ikkyo, nikkyo, sankyo, kote...etc are done correctly they lock up the entire arm to the shoulder giving you control of the uke.

Of course you have to feel this to understand it. Watching it will give you the impression that one guy is twisting the other guys wrist.

Chris

Hi guys

Well heres my 2 pence worth (englishman)...

The 'secrets' of aikido are indeed enclosed within the techniques of Aikido.

The main 'secret' being that they are not techniques at all but 'teachings' - In the case of kotagaeshi kamai (positional relationship) maai (distance) shisei (posture) are all fundamental bases that can be practice through this teaching.

Yes - to the observer the wrist is being twisted, but unless its taken away from ukes centre this wont happen.

In a dojo situation its all about control and using the teachings to develop the bases above.

If all you've got is a wrist twist you might find your opponent giving you some bad news with the other hand!

Regards

D

Think slightly laterally on the meaning of aikido.
'The Way'.....who's way? Well, your way actually, my way, any aikidoka's way.
Point im making is, having been in aikido for 8 years, i have been 'shown' not taught certain 'exercises' not techniques. How I interpreted them and developed from them was up to me.
"If you find the true value of the exercise, then you have made it your own" (my sensei, 1998) I think herein lie the secrets of aikido. Is there any better way to find harmony in a technique/exercise than to find it yourself, from a little instruction? i don't think so.
"if you find it without being shown, then it is truly yours" (my sensie again).....and it makes sense dont you think.
6ft dude finds a different way to perform irimi nage than 5ft dude and vice versa.
Adapt and make it one with your body and mind. That's the secret. imho.

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Welcome aboard BJ.

What federation are you with?

D

Here's the low down on Aikido: Morehei Ueshiba the founder of Aikido was well known for incorporating his unique blend of several asian religious beliefs into Aikido. Aikido just like any form of MA is not inherently "brutal" the terms direct or forceful is more accurate. One of the primary ideals of Aikido closely related to the Budo code but can be partially be summed up as this:
To practice (practice should really be replaced with live in this instance) Aikido is to be in harmony with the universe, the moment anyone wishes to fight you, they have already lost. Harmony is peace, conflict is discord. Thus when wanting to fight, you divulge from harmony and are destined to lose.

Besides, Aikido focuses on using your opponents own energy against him/her thus if any injury is incurred, they did it to themselves. We merely "helped" them on their way.

Aikido katas are for becoming aware of your surroundings. No secret there, although they allow you to master the "core" ideas of aikido. think foundation for a large building.

[This message has been edited by Shakahl (edited 04-23-2004).]

There are no real secrets n Aikido now, although osensei used to keep back all the kaisha waza until students had proved there commitment to the art.

The most important part of aikido like all arts including boxing is the foot work. everything starts from the ground up. That is why Hanmi is probably the greatest postion any one can be in it is perfect. If you are prepared to work on foot work above all else you will improve more faster than anyone else. Also there is no substitute for long hard keiko over a long hard time.

In other words practice lots and lots of saburi ken/jo study ever important point every day for years then there will be no difference between taijutsu,ken,jo they will become Aikido

excellent point, my scottish friend. Footwork is the key to technical mastery, which may be enhanced by weapons practice.

what is kaisha waza?

Quick point on Kote gaeshi mentioned previously. It doesn't always lead to a wrist break, it is often taught incorrectly. If you read the article posted on the main page of "fighting arts" Roy Y. Suenaka Sensei points out the common wrist twist causing pain through strctching of the tendons and ligaments is not the correct way to perform the technique. grabbing the wrist and turning the hand back along its natural biomechanical movement is equally effective but will cause no damage. However for this technique to work it must be combined with the person being off balance. As there is not the pain factor to coerce them. Aikido is not brutal (full stop) It contains all the necessary elements to be brutal but it is an idealistic philosophy whereby all brutal aspects are deliberately not used.
Stephen

I've been told that Yamaguchi sensei used to often comment that "kotegaeshi was probably a bad name for it." I think the meaning here is that very high level shihan thought that wrist turn gave people the wrong idea. I think the point here is that it is often not exactly what it looks like on the surface level. Even these break downs of ai = harmony, ki = energy, do = energy is a good example of this. ALSO, O-sensei liked the term "aiki" because it was what one of the sword schools he knew about used to describe the okuden level (level of depth). I think the entire point on technique is that O-sensei brilliantly designed the technique to not work well with a surface level understanding. Bottom line on aikido is that there is no direct pushing, pulling, lifting, threatening, or paining the person to the ground. I agree that there are times when the person's ukemi (or lack there of) force you to drop down a level of sophistication to a more brutal tai-jutsu version of a technique - but this is all just a level appropriate issue. (Meaning that if you were higher level - with deeper understanding - you'd be in a better relative place and still not need to drop down nearly as much or at all. )

Warning - I'm about to rant - sorry!

That article by Roy Y. Suenaka Sensei is pretty good except that the picture of his proper technique made me slap my forehead!

I am absolutely certain that he is pretty centered for a person with a hunch in his shoulders. (There is a hunch is his shoulders in every picture causing his head to be "extra" forward.) What is worse is that in the last picture under "The Technique" you can clearly see his left shoulder has got to be 6 inches lower than his right shoulder - causing him to lean. In multiple attack I would make sure I was attacking him at that moment while he was interfering with his relexive movement.

I'm a sandan in aikido and I'm pretty centered myself - probably not as much as a 5th dan; however, my shoulders typically remain level and are never hunched causing my head to lean forward.

If he is going to write an article about how "many aikido teachers and schools, however, have so misunderstood aikido's concepts of harmony and spirituality, and its history, that there has been a dilution of attention to technical detail." Then, his technical detail should not have glaring mistakes either! Basically I am saying that this person is casting stones and he is clearly standing in a glass house with hunched shoulders.

If you want a third party opinion, show these pictures to anyone who studies Alexander Technique and ask them their opinion.

By the way, I would also comment that the secrets of aikido ARE NOT in the book "Hidden secrets of Aikido." The auther got a lot of that wrong in his haste to get a book out. He should apologize to the aikido community. I'm thinking of writing a book corecting his errors. But it will be a lot of work and probably won't happen until I am retired!

Isn't it funny how many people think they know what O'Sensei thought, or how they think O'Sensei chose to do his art. Considering that none of us trained with him, how do you know what O'Sensei wanted or what he meant.You can always quote someone who supposedly "knows" what O'Sensei was all about but the bottom line is no one really knows what O'Sensei's intentions were, or why he did certain things a certain way, its just speculation. I am not going to get into what O"Sensei said or did, but deal with the process of technique.

First of all RobAikido, Kaishewaza is 'reverse, or reversing technique', in some cases your Tai Sabaki will take place and dis-allow the technique. In other cases, the lock is applied and you reverse it.

The reason I bring this up is I think this is an answer to the original question, which is the secret in technique. Anyone who sees just the technique is missing the point. The techniques are meant as vehicles to learn principle, concepts, and theories. So if there are concepts within the technique, there must be secrets within the technique.I am not going to go into all aspects of this, but will look at the process of Kaishewaza and the secrets that lie within.

When you practice Kaishewaza, you feel how the technique is applied, and look for openings. In true Kaishewaza practice, you study what makes the technique go, tai sabaki, alignments, stance etc. Once you study what makes it work, you look at how to stop it, by changing body posture, stance or applying your own technique. By viewing this, you are learning how to make you technique better so no one can counter it, so its a process, learn the technique, learn what make the technique work, reverse the techniqe, apply the knowledge from the reverse, to making the technique stronger. Its a constant flow, a never ending cycle. So if you learn that much from learning a technique, many of the secrets are unvailed, by practicing the process. So secrets have to lie within the techniques of Aikido same as those on Kata for Karate. If you look at the definition of kata, a series of connected movements, then a technique is a mini-kata and therefore has components of kata. If you can pull information from kata,(bunkai)then you can pull information from technique. I also do bunkai of technique, so if you are not seeing the secrets or hidden things in the technique, you are missing what the technique is about. I don't pretend to know what O'Sensei thought, or wanted from his art, but I do know that you don't just need kata to pull information from. I apply the Kata Process(Bunkai)to technique, no matter what they style or technique. So I breakdown movement, and apply the process to each movement

Irimi means 'entering with destruction' so the entering movement has much to offer, not just a way to get to technique. Look at your Aiki-Taiso exercises, and apply them to moving in, and you find throws, and sweeps, some cases (depend on how one does it) takedowns. So once again there are secrets or hidden meanings within the technique. In Karate we are always told to study our Kata, in Aikido, you study you technique, not merely do them, but find what makes them technique go. That in itself, is not obvious.

I like what senseilou has to say a lot - which is one of the main reasons I started reading and posting on this forum.

I want to add to one point and disagree in principle with an aspect of another - with all due respect...

To add to what he said - I think his description of the learning process is perfect. I would like to extend that by saying that once you get to the point where it's been a REALLY long time since anyone has been able to counter your techniques - you are still not done. Now the fun part begins - where you try to further refine the techniques by taking as much of the movements out as you think you can get away with - and continue to find people capable of helping you test them. If you took too much out, then you have to go back and put something(s) back in until you have really gotten thnigs down to the essence. It is always better to try to direct that experiment from your understanding of the principles, but sometimes it works the the other way...

I only want to disagree with an aspect of what senseilou had to say about people knowning what O-sensei knew. I certainly agree that we don't know what he said from direct experience. We do know what other people say that he said and we do know from our own experiences (that he helped shape) what makes sense. This is important because the word "keiko" doesn't mean practice like the word "renshu" means practice. I believe that keiko has the conotation of meaning developing an understanding of original mind (intuition). In that sense, having done keiko for a long enough time I think I do know what other people who have done that same kind of keiko know. This is somewhat analogous to how new Zen masters recieve transmission from older Zen masters. At some point in history, there existed a time when no one had recieved transmission - and yet there are Zen masters today. I think that this means that the infromation is still available even if there is no one else qualified to approve of your understanding of it...

One of my Sensei has what he calls the 95% rule. What he means in this is that people have a tendency(especially in MArtial Arts) to tell 95% of the truth. Sometimes that 5% consists of opinion, sometimes its information thats been eliminated, sometimes its 5% made up, or is viewed with a certain prejudice. Now this is the honest person, get a dishonest or a person seeking personal gain that 95% truth may drop to 50%.

However, even the person that tells 95% of the truth, has that 5% that is specualtion, conjecture or biased view. We have all seen this, especially in the arts where a student who went to 2-3 seminars with a Sensei is now the 'student' of the Sensei. You can not get a feel for what a Sensei knows in 2-3 seminars, or for that matter 1-2 years of training. I have one Sensei who only teaches basics the first 2 years, you know he knows more, but will not teach that until you prove yourself to be a devoted student.

My point here is this, what you get from Sensei's is their "interpretation" of what was given to them. Look at the influences in O'Sensei's life Ominsburo(? on the spelling)Takeda Sensei and God knows who else. None of his Deschi went through the same experiences, so they can relay what they saw or heard, and the 95% rule comes in and you get a biased opinion or better yet, their interpretation of what happened or what they learned. I studied with Toyoda Sensei(God Rest his soul) after having been under another of O'Sensei's Deschi. Both Sensei had different interpretations of what O'Sensei said and did. If you add Saito Sensei, Yamada Sensei, Shioda Sensei to this, watch their practice and their explaination, its just not the same, maybe 95% the same, but not 100%. You add Tohei Sensei to the mix, and you got a completely differnt view of O'Sensei

People may try to tell 100% of the truth, but when you see something, or understand something, your influences, biases, experinces and prejudices kick in. One Aikido Shihan I traied with was more concern about his image, than passing on O'Sensei's information. This is not just limited to Aikido, you see it thoughout the martial arts and life experiences themselves. Get 4-5 people in a room and have them watch something and they all will not see exactly(100%) the same thing. They are trying to see the truth and relay it but their personal traits will effect what they see. Watch this in the dojo. I see it every night. I show something, and then my students will try to do what I show, but you can guarante that something will be changed, either by choice or just based on how they see it, or how it feels to them. this is not necessarily a bad thing but........it is not exactly what I said or did.

This is how I see what has happened to Martial Arts teachings, not just Aikido but am using Aikido as the example. I have heard 2 distintly different versions of what O'Sensei felt about a certain topic. The topic was Irimi, and both Sensei were Deschi of Ueshiba Sensei and at the same time period, they were classmates. Not looking at the technical differences, but the mind set and application theory were entirely different. Both of their 5% of influence played into their interpretation of what is being said. Sadly enough the best explaination of Irimi came from a Kempo Sensei who married a Japanese women and met Aikidoka in Japan, who showed their interpretation of Irimi.

I think no matter how hard you try, you can not eleviate your influences and prejudices when you learn. I try really hard to be specific in the fact that "this is my understanding of what is going on", or "my interpretation of it" versus saying what someone else thought. You look at religon, which I won't go into here, but its the same thing. All are preaching Gods will, but very few are 100% the same. So it goes with our information as well.

I've trained in dojos who do ikkyo with the hand near the uke's elbow is primary. I've trained in dojos who do ikkyo with the hand near uke's wrist is primary.

I do the later as my primary choice with the former being a potential alternate depending on what I feel from uke.

My hope is that what I am doing for ikkyo is closer to the original way that was shown to both sides before each side acted on the images in their mind (of what was shown).

The other point I want to add is that all shihans are not created equal. Yamaguchi sensei was teaching a class full of students who held the shihan rank. To my knowledge, O-sensei is the only other person to teach classes filled with shihan. I doubt even these two grandmasters saw everything the same way. I'm sure that they agreed on the main principles and manifested them differently.

The question becomes what are the main principles. I'm working on a list. If we could mostly agree on the majority of the core principles, we could set better testing standards and have better godo geikos.

Rob,

In the aikido dojo where I've been trained we would do ikkyo with one hand on the wrist and the other up by the shoulder, never by the elbow. Not saying one is better than the other but rather, just another interpretation.

If it works for you and it works consistently on people outside your own dojo, that's a good start. If it is consistent with the principles you are applying, then so much the better.

I'd be more than happy to compare notes on principles and lists if you have the inkling.

I'll check but I think my email is on my profile.

Chris

Well, so far my ikkyo's been working pretty well on 5th, 6th, and 7th dans in Fukuoka, Japan (as of September this year) and on 6th dans in the States on the East Coast. However, I admit I haven't worked out with everyone and I truly love when I meet someone who can jam me - solving the problem of getting something to work is a lot more fun and interesting than solving the problem of how to refine what I'm doing now.

I admit that I can't do my ikkyo on someone who attacks shomenuchi with no regard for their safety. If they walk right up to me totally in my striking range - taking advantage ofthe fact that I'm not supposed to hit them in my role of nage - and then try to chop my head while standing firmly on their two feet, I have to say I'm not too experienced with that kind of timing - however I think I could do something with it... Also, when the uke chops to where I was without regard to the fact that I've been moving the entire time they've been moving toward me, I have trouble doing ikkyo to that too - but I kind of feel like it's okay to move and let them strike where I've been without doing ikkyo in that situation.

You know, I'm glad you mentioned the location of the higher hand. I think I should have been more specific! I think anywhere between the elbow and the shoulder is fine and the exact location should have a lot more to do with your relative heights and arm lenghts. I want my arms to eventually be about 95% extended to most fully express the power of my body/center.

Here are some of the priciples (and sub-principles) off the top of my head: (I suppose they are all from yin and yang or the relative and the absolute)
- "freedom requires direction"
- Ma ai - distance in space and time blending
- Tai atari - connection
-- tate and yoko
--- irimi and tenkan
---- move off line
--- verticality (Shisei/move from center
---- kokyu (meaning breath, rythm, and form)
---- you arms drop by their weight alone
---- relax = lengthen and widen you muscles

Every time I try to represent these, I order them a bit differently. I made no mention of "shin-shin toitsu aiki" and "kokyu rokyo" or the powers of balancing unification with separation, movement with rest, tension with release, and holding in with pushing out. Also, there should be some principles that translate specifically into what not to do like directly pushing, pulling, cranking, paining, threatening (non-violence?!) the uke to the ground... I'm still working on it all in my head!

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-04-2004).]

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-05-2004).]

Rob,

Thanks for the response...sounds like you've been giving the upper ranks hell!

Chris

Rob,
Right now I wish I had a more traditional training so I knew what tate and yoko are.

I find it interesting to try and list out adn teach by principles and to see what others list as well. I think most of us are thinking along the same lines but we catagorize and explain differently.

My guess is that what you are calling "verticality" is what we would refer to as maintaining posture. I've never heard of verticality but I like the word and may "borrow" it from you as long as that's okay.

I'm curious about "freedom requires direction" could you go into that a little bit more?

Thanks

Chris

I'll do my best. Japanese concepts to English are merky at best...

Tate literally means standing. but maybe it is better to think of it "going in a straight direction" (so with standing, you are going straight from the center of the Earth).

I get the idea that yoko kind of means something like "secondary" - so in this context where going in a straight direction is primary, "twisting or spirialing" might be a good way to think of yoko.

When you apply the principle of tate/yoko to someone grabbing your wrist it is helpful to move your grabbed arm straight in a direction (tate) that doesn't go directly aginst their fingers or thumb and at the same time twist your hand (yoko) with either your thumb being the center of the rotation as you go forward, or your pinky being the center of the rotation as you go backwards. (which is kind of like throwing a punch and chambering - depending on your school of course).

When you apply the principle of tate/yoko to your feet we have irimi/tenkan.

When you apply the principle of tate/yoko to a situation where an uke is attacking you we create omote or ura.

Of course, all these things kind of happen at the same time so it gets difficult to isolate one aspect or another.

Freedom requires direction is my favorite principle. I keep having to remind myself of this one especially when some godan locks my arms in a vice grip and puts the weight of a building into my center. The bottom line is you can't push back directly or you are nailed - the reason they feel so heavy in the first place is that the've tricked your body into pushing back a lot already. There is no freedom there until you see the problem for what it is. There is always a direction you can go to stay free. I need to move in a direction that helps me recieve their attack in the optimal way so I can use their force - not just momentum although I look at that as a gift! I need to set up and maintain a fragile conenction between us and all of that requires having the proper direction to keep the energy connected between us and also to keep the energy free to continue or flowing until that situation is over... Also, when I am being attacked, I know where the attacker is, and I know where I am so I know the path they must chose to hit me. I should be able to constantly move such that I can maintain my advantage of being at least a half turn ahead of my attacker. If I ever get sloppy and lose that, my aikido starts to fall apart and I start having to resort to other less sophistocated tricks and try to get back on track or just take ukemi myself. You can easily think about ryotetori shihonage to grasp "freedom requires direction." Let them get a good hold of your wrists and try to move into the technique with the uke opposing you. It should be really difficult to move at all. Then realize that they only control your body from your wrists up. You should be able to move your fingers in any direction you want. Move your fingers into the space you need to get your body moving and poor all of yourself into that direction while twisting a bit around your back hand's thumb. It also helps if you try to maintain really feeling both of their hands gripping on your arm while you continue to move without disturbing their grip.

I can tell you that in my experience that it is generally not very ego gratifing to move the upper blackbelts around because they have so much control of their bodies that I never really get to throw them at the speed/force that they can throw me! But so far as long as it is an aikido attack, they have to move - abeit more slowly than my normal partners tend to move. My teacher came in and just continually crushed me by grabbing both my wrists. That was awesome and really hard to deal with. I could do something but my kokyu wasn't developed enough to do what I wanted to do (like the technique being shown!).

I think the workd "inuri" is used in aikido to mean verticality. Posture is some of it (people say shisei for that and maybe I heard someone say ishisei but maybe I misheard!). Inuri comes from the idea of something like "prayer" where "man is the mountain that unites Earth to Heaven". I think that the idea of relating to an attacker on the vertical plane has to be the main emphasis (as opposed to Karate where hips generate a tremendous amout of horizontal force as their main emphasis). This kind of way of looking at aikido is the only way I can attempt to do ikkyo or iriminage without directly pushing or pulling the uke...

I'm not sure if this makes sense to anyone who is not standing in my dojo. For me, it is a lot easier to show then it is to explain in writing!

I don't think any of these ideas are secrets, I think they are just the result of research... - Rob

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-05-2004).]

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 11-08-2004).]

freedom requires direction could you go into that a little bit more?

Hi Chris....I have shared alot of principles with you that are the same or relate the same as the ones listed, they are just worded a little different.Many of the concepts we have talked about before.

I am not sure how others explain them, and I am sure there is more than 1 translation, so
I will tell you how we apply this principle.

One translation is much like Bruce Lee's statement about being formless. In order to be formless one must have form to break away from. So in this sense, its about not getting locked into set things, and just reacting, not thinking technique but observing openings and opportunities to attack. In this case as well, form teaches you how to move(not when to move, which is really more important)and reply with a set action. Formless just has you move, with no mind and the ability to react, not imitate movement.

Another explaination that was shared with us is that freedom relates to unincumbered movement(I am not real smart and have no idea what the hell unicumbered is)which we translate as the ability to flow. However that flow has to be directed. It can be directed as striking, locking, throwing and outside technique for energy flow(Ki) or mushin(with your mind) or dealing with Kokyu(your heart). Kokyu took some time to grasp, but after some time talking with Sensei(Hanshi)and he explained it physically-controlling your breathing to emotionally in how you deal with others. This is getting out there and I think here the principle is more about Tai Sabaki and the principle of flow.

Hope this helps. I know we have been talking alot of using striking in flow and adding it to your locking techniques. This is one expalination of freedon requires direction,the ability to flow with what you do and apply in a certain direction(direction can be literal here and apply it to the clock that we showed you)ie. the function of what you do. I am sure there are others interpretations as well.

Sensei Lou and Rob,

Thanks for the responses. To a very large degree I think we are all on the same page but what you call things and how you draw the box gives us different descriptions.

At my dojo in California one of the major principles we work is what we call secondary motion, Sensei Lou I think you know the Aiki jujutsu guy we got the concept from! In othr words when someone grabs your wrist with the bone crushing vice, you can still move your fingers (at least initially) and the whole rest of your body. So rather than trying to move your wrist, move the rest of your body to change the alignment, angles and distance. I read alot of this in Rob's response.


Sensei Lou, I picked up some more flow perspective from some stick work I did out here. I haven't done much but every time I get a taste I leave hungrier!

Any chance either of you is going to the Aiki Expo next year?

Chris

Sorry to say Chris, most probably not. I have my schedule for nest year pretty full already. We are out trying to promote the DVD's and doing seminars. I'll see if I can work it in though

The idea of "formlessness" is cool. My best understanding of that is got be somewhere near rokyudan, nandan in aikido martial ability. I'm not there so I can only tell you what's been working for me so far!

A specific form is an expression of principle(s). If you can express the important principle(s) in a different way, a specific form is useless except as a teaching tool.

When I consider "freedom requires direction" on a physcal or mental level, I suppose you can consider the simple case of the opposite - meaning if you have no direction, you are not moving, and so you are stuck (no freedom being stuck).

"Freedom only exists within boundaries" is also something worth considering. So what are the boundaries? An example would be: Your freedom to throw a punch ends at the tip of my nose...

The implications of just these two principles about freedom as they relate to aikido are pertinent in every basic waza. I'm nto sure how to elaborate more specifically without trying to get into every waza. Is there a specific question?

In general I find they translate into solutions to the question of "how to make space" to allow you to use your hara - maintaining the fragile connection without directly manipulating uke at the point(s) of contact (which is always easy to counter).

I hope we are in agreement on most of the terms I am writing about. I did not invent them! If other people have a different way to say the same thing, please do say so. It is really helpful to me have multiple expressions.

Rob

Rob,

No specific question yet, sorry!

As Sensei Lou knows, I tend to perk up when I hear people talking about principles rather than techniques. The techniques are combinations of different principles and as such you can use a technique and focus on any one of the principles involved.

This past weekend our group was fortunate enough to go with our Sensei(s) to teach a group of Tang Soo Do black belts. I had a blast and ended up staying an extra hour and a half with a few of the TSD guys trading concepts and ideas. Anyway, one of the things that they really seemed to find interesting was the principle of "secondary motion". That's the term we use for it but it boils down to moving from someplace other than the attack point and for us embodies alot of the blending and harmonizing with the attack rather than trying to meet the attack.

In particular we were working with a two-hand lapel grab (sorry I don't have the Japanese name). Rather than trying to remove the hands, attack the hands or arms, or atack the attacker; we were showing that a simple body rotation of 90 degrees would take away the power of the attack and start destroying the attackers balance. I had so many people this weekend with surprised looks and grins as they saw a new way to view things.

Keep in mind that this was a room full of experienced martial artists and we were able to show them a new concept. I'm always on the lookout for new concepts like this that I can incorporate.

Lastly, in fairness I learned quite a bit from the TSD folks I worked with!

Chris

I'm not sure about the double lapel grab. (ryote mune dori ? I don't know a name for this either!).

If it is a double shoulder grab by someone with a solid grip from both hands, I would say that you must also drop down a bit just before you twist to whatever angle or you'll never get by the power of the grab(s).

When I think of "secondary motion" I think of the hips/legs movement being the primary motion, and the secondary motion being what the arms do...

The secrets of Aikido, if such exist, do not appear to be known by anyone. Further, it is quite apparent that even those few who seem to have 'beyond normal' ability seldom, if ever, have the skill to pass it on. Accordingly, if you wish to learn you have no choice but to seek for yourself.

People who look for secrets in any martial art are usually barking up the wrong tree. I was an aikido uchidesh for four years under Yamada sensei, and if there's one thing I learned, is that improvement comes through hard work, not 1000 word forum postings.

I certainly agree that hard work is important and hard work with good direction gets you improving that much faster. I've known too many people who put in a lot of hard work and spun their wheels for a lot of years before they woke up; some still haven't and maybe never will.

Uchideshi for 4 years in NYC, huh. That's great. What is life like after being uchideshi?

Rob

[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 12-08-2004).]

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[This message has been edited by rob_liberti (edited 12-08-2004).]

You can train for 20 years, but if you are doing things wrong, all you have done is something wrong for 20 years. Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent, practice wrong, play wrong. Just because you do something for a longtime, doesn't necessarily mean your doing it right.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
You can train for 20 years, but if you are doing things wrong, all you have done is something wrong for 20 years. Practice doesn't make perfect, practice makes permanent, practice wrong, play wrong. Just because you do something for a longtime, doesn't necessarily mean your doing it right.[/QUOTE]

Right, I read and write 1000 word essays on aikido and hope I get corrected or inspired because I would like to improve my practice which is certainly not devoid of hard work.

I'm really interested in the uchideshi perspective. How did you come to choose Yamada sensei as the person to uchideshi under? Did you consider some of the other shihan as well or was it mainly a location thing? (Does Sugano sensei have uchideshi?)

Thanks,
Rob

Sugano did not have any deshi's when he taught on his own, at least not as far as I know. But the deshi's at ny aikikai consider themselves his deshis as well as yamada sensei's.

As far as life after uchi deshi, it's great. I no longer train for 5 hours a day, instead I train for 1 or 2, but the funny thing is, I'm learning just as much as I used to. It's all about focus, I guess.

[This message has been edited by ottorotciv (edited 12-12-2004).]