Beating up my dojo

Hey guys, I think that this might be the 1000th post in the Aikido forum, but anyway..


I just felt like sharing some of what I've encountered in training as of late. I sort of feel like I've been accidentally beating up my fellow aikidoka in my dojo. I knocked one of my sensei out during randori, which was actually his fault. He gave me a very strong down and leaned into it just a bit, and as I rolled to save myself from the impending faceplant my foot whirled around and cracked him in the jaw. His eyes went glassy and he went down. I felt awful as I hobbled over to survey the damage, which turned out to be just a split lip and a bloody foot.

Another instance that comes to mind was while working with one of the more martial members of our dojo, who at times applies some techniques pretty tenaciously on me. When it was his turn to take ukemi he complained several times that I was being to rough on his joints, though that was not my intention and I don't believe that I was doing the technique any harder than he was. This is the same guy who love to throw me into breakfalls to even though our dojo is phasing them out.

Anyway, I'm trying to figure out if I'm a new breed of sadistic aikidoka, or if I should take it easy on the old guys? Neither one of these guys are really old mind you, but far from their early twenties where I find myself these days.

Thanks for listening...

*gets up off of the martial therapist's couch and exists the room*

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

The two incidents you portrayed seem very different to me.

In the first, I think you have an honest to goodness training accident-- a happy one at that, because no doubt it will be a while before your sensei follows someone down with his face again. I got busted for leaning over uke in that fashion just Monday night, albeit in a much less dramatic way...

The second story is the one I think I would spend more time thinking about. If you are consistently causing pain to your training partner, you are missing an opportunity to learn better "feel" for the technique. By that I mean you should be able to snatch uke's arm and apply your technique up to the point where "all the slack is gone" as fast as you possibly can without causing any pain whatsoever. This point is different for each uke, and you will learn to see it in his posture and eventually feel it through his body. Once the slack is all taken out, the lock is established, and uke's posture is broken, what happens next is negotiated between the two of you-- if he resists, he will feel pain. If you apply the technique faster than he can accomodate you with his ukemi, he will feel pain. So you both have a part to play in determining out how much practice is going to hurt. On the one hand, you can cause him pain no matter how good his ukemi is. On the other hand, he can make life harder for himself by resisting the technique.

Personally, I like uke to resist some, and I resist some as uke in order to allow tori to feel something on the other end of the line. Yes, it hurts sometimes, but really, if balance is broken properly it is hard to put up much resistance because you can't get any leverage. Watch for uke's tap, and if he taps let the pressure off immediately.

From what you have said, this particular uke is not that sensitive with his technique or he is just sadistic. In either case, you shouldn't let the quality of your technique drop to his level-- treat him right, and if he can't or won't treat you right then talk to him about that. Heck, for all you know he might think you are cranking him too hard and he may be retaliating to teach you to calm down. These things tend to escalate! You may find that if you learn to "listen" to your technique you will both naturally soften up the right amount without losing the effectiveness of your technique. I really believe that pain should not be the piece of the puzzle you are relying on to make this stuff work, because you never know how someone will react to pain or if they even feel it. My instructor can plant me solidly without any pain at all, just by locking my skeleton and breaking my balance.

Hope this helps some...

I think mikey has answered your points very well and I have nothing to add to that. However, one thing that I did pick up in your post that concerns me greatly: You dojo is phasing out breakfalls???? Have I misunderstood something? Are you really doing away with breakfalls?

Budo

Thanks for your post Mikey. I too have been flattened to the mat without feeling anything, and its an awesome experience. You gave me some food for thought that I definitely will bring to the mat next time I practice.

Cato-

I can't really say that we're phasing out breakfalls altogether, but the shin shin toitso aikido syllabus has changed I believe pretty recently, but before I began practicing. For instance, we don't do kotegaeishi or wrist turn anymore, we do koteoroshi or wrist drop which needless to say does not necesitate a high level of ukemi to receive the technique. I think we do less breakfalls in my dojo than other ki society dojos that I've visited, because that's the word coming from Japan and our cheif instructor is very meticulous about staying up with the new ways things are being done in Japan, which I believe is a good thing for our dojo. But when sensei's gone, things are a bit different. I hear senior students lament the loss of kotegaeishi into breakfall for example. But sensei is abroad I believe putting on a few seminars over in the UK right now, and I got tossed into a breakfall from kotegaeishi the other night for the first time which was kind of cool. While practicing suwari waza? techniques from seiza, koteoroshi is more like kotegaeishi but we let go (or are supposed to anyway) to let uke roll out of the technique.

Of course breakfalls can't be phased out completely, but we are basically being instructed to not breakfall for the sake of a nice high fall, only when it's necessary.

So yeah, that's all I got. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Joe.

Ah. It makes sense now, thanks Joe. I had a few palpatations there for a while but I'm okay again now. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

Get the palpitations going again, I am one of the last in my dojo to have any skill in breakfalls. We aren't teaching them as our techniques really don't require them.

This could lead to a long discussion, but in my experience, the kote into a breakfall is fairly easy to reverse by extending the arm straight and out, usually puts me in a nice position for a rear choke. In the event that I do go over in a break fall, I've got a fist, an elbow and a knee that are looking for your ear on the way over.

On my last test I was asked to throw a visiting aiki-jujutsu student in a breakfall using kote and couldn't.

Now you guys are likely doing kote a bit differently, can you share how you are doing it so that it requires a break fall but isn't readily reversed?

As Chris and I worked on this very topic, I can attest to his view as well. Depending on how one does the 'gaeshi', one may not be able to breakfall from the lock. It boils down to this. If you allow uke to fall where he wants, or you place him where you want. If you place uke where you want and apply the 'kaeshi' a certain way, uke can not breakfall or he will break his own arm. So the question exists, do you need big breakfalls to do martial arts. Note that most Karate-ka don't use breakfalls, neither do Brazillian Jujutsu, so one can make the argument they are not necessary. On the flip side in Aikido you could get hurt without knowing how. My Jujutsu Sensei would not allow breakfalls as if the person did a breakfall you did the lock wrong. Truth of the matter is this, big pretty breakfalls are more for "showin" than anything else. It looks good at demos, and usually get the oohhs and aahhs. It makes the technique look like it hurts alot worse then it did. Try a breakfall against someone like Professor Wally Jay of Small Circle Jujutsu and you may break your own body. My fingers were bent in angles I didn't know existed and the best thing to do was sit down.

I may have misunderstood Chris, but is not down to whether or not you "float" uke prior to applying the technique? If uke is pinned he will counter almost anything quite successfully, but it is dificult to counter a technique off balance, particularly if the technique is "snapped" on rather than applied in stages.

Budo

Cato,

The particular "arm extension" reversal might be counter intuitive at speed and without balance. The kote we do is with the fingers straight up and the elbow taken back and down. At speed I end up straight down on my back (usually upper back taking most of the impact).

In most breakfalls I have taken, even at speed and with the flow, I can get contact with the nage, usually my hand to the back of his head. I smacked the hell out of a guy once on accident while visiting his dojo. The kote came on so fast that my body going down caused some "equal and opposite" to my oputside hand which went forward and then was pulled in... In this case I wasn't even trying to counter.

The other problem we (my dojo) have with breakfalls is that to properly do a breakfall, you need to be able to pivot your body in the direction of the fall and push off. In most cases one foot is usually free to move and accomplish this. Now I admit that we don't practice this and we may not be doing an advanced form, but in all the videos I've seen (including some of the famous shihans), one foot is floating. Anyway, with a foot floating like that, you don't really have the control over uke to take them where you want them. In essence, if uke still has the body control to take a breakfall, he still has enough body control to not take a breakfall...

Just our interpretation, I still do them on occassion as I find them fun in small doses.

Chris

We actually do kote gaeshi in two different ways. Neither of them require a high break fall the way we practice them, but I believe we could force one in the second case.

The first is as Csinca described. Uke can hit you with his free hand if you are not very careful with your body positioning, and in light of Csinca's comments I am going to keep an eye out tonight to see if maybe uke can always hit with the free hand. It sounds like he can. I have always assumed the the atemi to the face on entering served as an adequate block, but I am not sure... In the second version, we apply the lock and then throw uke by pulling *away* from him, and pivoting to our rear. Usually people roll the fingers down and to the outside while pulling. This creates a lot of torque on the arm, which can only be alleviated by uke "turning over" to unload his arm. If we perform the pull "slow and low" uke can kind of twist around on his feet and then fall in the usual way. If we perform the pull higher and fast, then uke would have to do a breakfall in order to roll over in the air and save his arm. I think if you did the pull fast enough it would be hard to fall in time, meaning that dislocation of the elbow or shoulder and ligament damage to the wrist are very likely.

Does anyone else apply kote gaeshi in the way I described? Is it possible to force a high breakfall in this way?

PS: The arm straightening counter sets uke up for waka gatame. I am not sure, but it might be a case of out of the frying pan and into the fire if you resist the wrist lock and throw only to trade it for an arm bar. We sometimes try to counter kote gaeshi by bracing the hand that is locked with our free hand and then pulling the arm back to get free. Of course, all counters can be countered, ad infinitum...

Mikey,

On that second Kote, if you have uke's right hand and they have their right foot forward, are you stepping in their front triangulation with your right foot and pivoting your left foot back and away (moving your body counter-clockwise as seen from above)? It really wouldn't be a tenkan but something like a mini tenkan?

If that is what you are doing, then we do something very similar to that.

Chris

One explanation that I've received for Ki Society changing kotegaeishi to koteoroshi is because a smart uke will always(??) be able to smack nage on the way over, or punch him right in the jaw if they so choose. But koteoroshi drops them straight down without giving uke a chance to make contact with nage. This is by no means official, mind you. But its so difficult to discuss this over the internet, I lament the fact that I can't see what you guys are talking about in person. Oh well, maybe one of these days..

Joe.

WHY are you doing the kotegaeshi in the first place? Then HOW are you doing it. The WHY I ask is that there is more than 1 reason to apply kotegaeshi. For instance in Sanuces Ryu, Kotegaeshi always leads to a secondary lock, or a lead in to something else, a strike, a choke or a throw. So the why should dictate the how, and there are bunches of ways to do this technique. We always use the "gaeshi" to set up something else, Kotergaeshi is never the full technique. I use the opposite hand for the 'gaeshi' which gives more torque and drops them on the spot, and usually to their knees, secondly, there are pressure points that you can use, between thumb and forefinger or my favorite, the cuticles of the fingers. I use my finger nails on their cuticles and press down, no breakfall here. We also have a version that we drop to the ground with the Gaeshi, almost a sutemi waza type kotegaeshi, no breakfall here as well. If you want them to breakfall, turn and let them, if not, there are as many ways not to let them break fall as there is to break fall. It all depends on why you are doing it. If people would study more the "WHY" of the waza, and the end result that they want, their technique would be different.

Csinca,

That sounds like the critter I am describing. Lately I have been offbalancing uke forward prior to attempting to take him down. In other words, where you said step in with the right foot, I am actually stepping away with the right foot, and then pivoting in the mini-tenkan you described. I am not sure what you mean by front triangulation, but I assume it is the same thing we call uke's "weak direction", which is to say at 45 degrees to the line between his feet.

So in this case, I have his right hand, and I am stepping away from him with my right foot pulling him to his left front 45 degree direction, then I tenkan counterclockwise through about 135 degrees and drop. This can also be done to the outside, or in his right 45 degree direction. If we move towards him, then the technique is more like your first version, where you push him down and towards him through his forearm keeping the fingers vertical.

Joe and Sensei Lou seem to be describing something that resembles what we refer to as a small circle wrist lock, ala Wally Jay. It's quick and effective, and can be employed to drop uke straight down.

It's amazing how many different ways this can be approached. I would agree with Lou when he says the end result you want is important in shaping the technique, so is the attack you are defending against. Kote gaeshi is never the end of the line for us because it does not end in what we consider to be a proper hold. If we throw with it, we usually turn uke on his belly and take a follow up hold. If not, it is a lead in for a throw or other technique. Sometimes we reverse the direction and take an arm bar if we feel resistance.

Csinca, since our "case two's" sound almost identical, do you find that it could result in a high breakfall if tori forced the issue?

If not, why not?

Thanks...

Mikey,

We are doing the same thing in case #2. The triangulation point is indeed the weak direction you refer to. Take the distance between the feet and go that far out along the weak direction and you have the "triangulation point". Put uke's elbow right there on the floor and they go down.

In such a case I would say that a breakfall is very difficult if not impossible as the uke's weight is forward, in front of his feet and if you are controlling the elbow and shoulder (via skeletal lock) he has no choice but to fall forward and down. If he is falling forward and down, he can't very well "jump" and rotate his hips up over his shoulder and breakfall.

It also gets into what we call "grounding", that feeling of both feet wtuck to the mat. I can feel it, sometimes do it, but I don't yet kow enough about HOW it works to explain it like this. The best written example I can give is this. Get into a wide horse stance and then try to pick one foot up straight off the ground without rocking your whole body over to the other foot. It's not technically correct but gives an idea of what I'm referring to.

I was using kote simply as an example of why we don't breakfall in our dojo. It seems to be a classic breakfall technique in demo's and the way we apply the technique it not only doesn't require a breakfall, it actually makes it very difficult for uke to do a breakfall. Rather it puts uke down at our feet, along the lines of Sensei Lou's "control where they fall". Of course from there you have a buffet of options [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Sensei Lou also showed me a few variations from the standing kote position other than taking uke into the throw. Still working on them but definitely added a new dimension to koto for me!

Take care

Chris

Hmmm...

I am with you 100% on the "doesn't require a (high) breakfall", but I am not sure I see the "makes it very difficult to do a high breakfall". I am going to have to experiment some with it and see. I had not been doing high falls because they haven't been necessary- it didn't occur to me that they might not be possible.

If you get in the air and roll over, it seems like tori's pull on your arm should rotate you the rest of the way into position, if he is taking care of you. If you don't find some way to flop over onto your back it seems like the wrist torque would cause injury. I don't know... the only time I do a high fall is if someone makes me, and that is usually from a judo throw.

Thanks a lot for the information on the triangulation point-- I am familiar with the direction, but it seems like there are some things to learn from knowing where the exact point is. A lot of times I find myself looking at someone's feet to figure out if they are offbalanced. I need to find a way to feel that, or just "know", and the triangulation point is a step in the right direction (no pun intended).

Does the same point exist to uke's rear? I know the weak direction applies, so it stands to reason there is a point there, too. It's all related to how far I have to move his center to offbalance him-- the better guys in our dojo might move you an inch or two and they have stolen your balance, while I find myself making much larger movements.

I think offbalancing is one of the most interesting, important, and subtle aspects of what we do.

Thanks again for your input.

Mikey,

One last comment on the kote/breakfall. When I'm going to take someone down with Kote, that pull on the arm you mention should never go up, it should always be heading down.

The triangulation discussion can get long. Feel free to email me if you want.

Basically there are triangulation points (also known as fall points) all over the place, yes the big one in front is a mirror image of the one in the back. If you take uke down with an ikkyo (or even nikkyo) to where they are on their knees and one hand and you want them flat, there is a triangulation point defined by their hand and the knee closest to you. Find it the same way you find the standing points and put their shoulder in the mat at that point. Of course there are other options at that point since your knees and feet are available, you can usually free up one hand and the uke's ribs are exposed....

The trick is to not over shoot the triangulation points. A common mistake is to throw someone out rather than down. Throwing out will really just loosen the lock and cause them to step away....

Ever take a kote so far behind the uke and have him step back and you have to start all over again? It happened to me once (or more)...

Have a great evening

Chris

I'm still not sure I get it guys. Kote gaeshi is a takedown, not a throw, but one that involves breaking uke's wrist. By making it a throw we save him from that.

If you extend uke and then perform kote gaeshi to his third point he is not in any position to do any kind of breakfall and his wrist will break, which is after all the point of the technique. By allowing uke to "catch up" and perform a high breakfall we are avoiding injuring his wrist. It's a training method, there to ensure we don't run out of uke's [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

If he were to breakfall to the side of our kote gaeshi he risks twisting his wrist in an unnatural way and causing himself an injury, so he his best option is to go over in a high fall. Of course, as you say, he can stick a sly elbow into the back of your head as he goes over but that is because you are doing the technique so as to avoid injuring him. If I performed kote gaeshi for real I would expect to break my uke's wrist.

Budo

Chris,

Thanks for the further clarification. I am going to have to do a lot of experimenting with the triangulation/third point idea. In our dojo we don't usually use this. As I understand it, the point you are talking about is on uke's center line, perpendicular to the line between his two points of support (feet, in this case) at a distance away from that line that is approximately equal to the distance between the two support points. Whew that was wordy! We tend to go out from one of the support points at a 45 degree angle most of the time, which causes one foot to come up and the other to "plant" as you described. In the direction you are talking about, it seems like you could do the technique in a way which "plants" both of uke's feet. Interesting.

I am going to dig into this with some of the guys at class and I am sure that will lead to more questions.

I will email those to you unless everyone here would like to see them, in which case I will start a new thread (so let me know what y'all think). Thanks again for explaining this.

Kote gaeshi is a takedown, not a throw, but one that involves breaking uke's wrist. By making it a throw we save him from that.

Says who............This is the argument that I have been fighting with, this is this, or this is that. Cato says kotegaeshi is a takedown, it is, but its a throw, a standing lock, a block of another strike, an opening to expose the thorasic area of a person. depending on who is doing what, and how they do it, a block is more than just a block, but the problem is people are locked into what they are told, and will not open their eyes to other possiblities. I can show a downward block as Nikkyo and it works, ask Chris. The problem is people get locked in and can't expand on what is taught. One needs to study movement, and how this movement works. To say a block is only used to stop a blow is as ludicrous as saying kotegaeshi is just a takedown. Shogo Kuniba who studied with Shioda Sensei does a version of Kotegaeshi where he takes the 'gaeshi' and locks the wrist on his own knee, or thigh, and the attacker neither is thrown or taken down, but 'double weighted' and locked in his tracks. The problem is Karate-ka see a block as a block, and Aikidoka see Kotegaeshi as a throw or takedown. There is so much more to offer if one just will open their eyes. If you can't see the application its because you are not training in a way that will open your mind to it. Its all the study of movement, and when people realize that a Karateka CAN move like an Aikidoka, and an Aikidoka can use Karate movements in their Aiki, their respective arts will improve.

Lou-

I've seen you make the remark that an outward? block is kotegaeishi, and I just can't get my head around it. I have no training in striking arts, so never have been taught to block so maybe that's one problem, but can you elaborate more? Thanks,

Joe.

Joe,

I'm not sure exactly what Sensei Lou has in mind for that but I would start by looking at the motion your arm (particularly forearm) makes when you perform Kote. If you have a hold on uke's right wrist, as you rotate his forearm out, look at your left forearm and the path and rotation it takes...

Now imagine that path intersecting with a line of attack

There is another way to look at it but I'm still working on it...

I hope I'm not leading you down the wrong path, but it is something that you have to play with and see for yourself.

Chris

Chris is on the right track. There are a couple of ways to do this. First look at nikkyo.......if you took nikkyo say from a grab, and the attacker starts to punch with his other hand, what do you do? You apply the Nikkyo and stop the punch, isn't that a block, I am blocking with my Nikkyo. Now when I take Nikkyo and the attacker starts to punch, I actually apply the nikkyo in the direction of his punch, and it stops the punch. You have to know what makes the punch work, rotation, push/pull etc., so in order for him to punch he needs to retract the hand that I apply Nikkyo to, since I apply this at his punch, he can't retract and walla, no punch, no punch means I stopped his punch, which is a block.
So for the kotegaeshi, just do it in the air, then do an outward block in the air. Same motion, just applied differently. So when an attacker punches, and you do kotegaeshi, you are doing the same movement as an outward block. If you take the kotegaeshi and take it in the direction of his hip, the attacker can punch because you have allowed the retraction of the arm, but if you pull the kotegaeshi to you(push/pull)and push down, there is no retraction of the hand, and uke can't throw a second punch, or if he does, you stop it and thats a block. Another way of doing this is to take the hand, and let uke throw another punch, as he punches do the kotegaeshi and catch his punch with your kotegaeshi, which will tie up both his arms, like a Jujunage. There are other ways as well but are more difficult to explain.
Most people, even Karateka believe a block is to stop a strike. Its not, and anyone who trains in Karate for a number of years will tell you blocks don't really exist, they are strikes, locks, throws and chokes. The biggest mistake is that a downward block, blocks a kick. If you do this your face is wide open for a strike. Kicks are to be blocked with the legs or elbows, not a downward block. If you move in on a punch, pari the punch and step behind uke in a horse stance do a downward block to his groin you create a throw over your leg. Same is true with an upward block, same motion and you have a form of Sayundo. Once again there is more to blocks than just stopping an attack, that is the most elementary form taught to white Belts, once the movement is learned there are many applications(pressure points)as there are for the locks of Jujutsu and Aikido. Next time you are grabbed, grab the hand, step back into a long stance and do a downward block and see how that changes the Nikkyo that you do. My favorite is a downward block in a cat stance as you drop your weight in the cat stance, which means my Nikkyo will have my weight dropping on their wrist, not just my hands. Think about it!

I thought about it, and it sounds painful! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Thanks for the post Lou Sensei. I have a better idea of what you are referring to, but I'd sure like to see it in person. Alas, maybe one of these days we can.

Tonight in class we were working on keri waza a bit, and one of the techniques we were working against a front snap kick, which involves a downward half-assed block, then an atemi straight to the face. I say the block was half assed because it didn't really seem necessary seeing as we are already stepping off line with a strong irimi movement. But now I'm concerned that I'm leaving myself completely open. hmmm...

We were doing the same defence against a munatsuki attack. Bear in mind that all these throws are pretty much no touch in my dojo, which sort of worries me. Don't get me wrong, I DO NOT FLOP, except for beginners so they can learn how things are supposed to feel. The difference in the technique between one aikidoka who's up for nidan here really soon and the kyu's who are also my sempai was really something to behold. But if someone does not know ukemi, I worry about what their response would be. I've practiced using atemi against a friend who studies qi kong and other styles of kungfu, and I definitely was able to take his center, though I never really tried to finish a technique. But "on the street," if one applied several of these defenses I could see them connecting, which changes everything. In my dojo, atemi is basically defined as ki punches, where we make a strong ki connection (maybe read strong intent if you're not into the whole ki thing), but atemi are never supposed to connect.

Hmm... I guess I don't have a point to this post, just some random brain droppings after a very intense training session.

Joe.

joe jutsu....i would highly recommend getting a book by sensei rick clark, the entire book is like "75 down blocks" i think that is the title as well...everything from throws to strikes, to joint locks all using nothing but the low block. also i would recommend books by george dillman. try them you will like them, i would get "pressure point karate made easy" to start with. for the record clark was a student of dillmans
i agree totally with sensei lou..right on!!
dont see a block and chamber...see the "movement"...thats not a chamber either [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
in ryukyu kempo karate jutsu tomari-te (dillman and oyatas style)...a high block is not called a high block, it is called "the upward counter"...the low block "the downward counter" because this is what they truly are, every single "movement" in your kata has an OFFENSIVE purpose. look at stances for a moment, then look at the way sensei lou USED the cat stance for example, he did not fight from this stance, he lowered his weight into this stance to drop his weight on the technique making it effortless for him, and more effective and painful for the attacker. its the same with all stances, when you do kotegaeshi drop down into a horse stance.
as for "chambers"..chambering your fist when you punch....this is may times actually a grab...grab ukes belt or pants and pull him into that punch!!
ask yourself, if i was going to use the "low block"..why would i waste time setting it up by raising it to my shoulder first?...you wouldnt i hope, i certainly wouldnt. say someone grabbed your lapel, that setup motion can be a strike to the attackers wrist (there is a pressure point there i wont get into)..and when you do that, why would you also "setup" the other hand by bringing it down as if punching low?...because it is a low punch its not a setup at all.
picture the "motion" of performing a complete low block...set up with right at shoulder and left as if delivering a low punch, then chamber your left FIST as you lower your right FIST for the block.
uke grabs your lapel with his right, you "setup" your block by attacking his wrist with your right by bring it to your shoulder area (strike uke's inner wrist)...and "setup" the left by punching to his belly, groin or even forearm with your other hand (ever wonder why its done with a fist? thats why)this will bend him over, and that is why you "block" low (also just happens to be a fist)...when you "block" you are actually striking him in the head (or another target) since he is bent over....there are many ways to use a "block"....interestingly in karate a block is called uke as well....which can be translated as "recieving a technique"...not stopping it.
when you get into actually striking pressure points or kyusho jutsu(which are mapped out in kata as well) [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]...ever wonder why there is a twist at the very end of every karate technique? its about energy trasfer, proper angle and direction...this is the single biggest key in why so many people dont believe in pressure points...they are simply not doing it correctly!!
stances....take a cat stance as a very good example of "polarity", just like a battery the human body is filled with electrical energy (current)...your right fist is positive when your heal is on the ground, when you raise your right heal off of the ground as in a cat stance, it becomes negative, which depending on other factors like which side of your opponents body you are striking for instance, can make your strike a thousand times more effective, with much less effort on your part...some would say you would lack power with your heal off the ground....yeah but you dont need power if you strike correctly [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]
does this help??

Yes, kote gaeshi can be a number of things, and most aikido ryuha practice it as such. My apologies but I thought in this context we were talking specifically about it being a throw, and how it leaves tori open to a counter when used as such. It isn't, there are no throws as such in aikido, only takedowns and projections. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

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