Integrity and Honesty in things martial

As a general rule Martial arts, particularly aikido, teach us that there is a certain code of behaviour amongst combatants, be it bushido or whatever else you want to call it. Consequently we try to behave in accordance with this code, and then along comes the Iraqi Information Minister.

Whatever you think of the war in Iraq you must admit this man is without doubt a phenomena, but how to what extent, if at all, does he conform to the "warrior" code?

Define warrior code? What code do you go by? Did you made up your own? Or did you just take what's handed down from freudal Japan?

-raccoon

All these threads, I am so overwhelmed! All things have a code of behaviour, whether it be bold face Iranian lying or set behaviour in an Aikido dojo. A Karate dojo's code is quite different. There is a heiarchy in the dojo, in Aikido a Dan is a Dan, and not questioned or tested by others. In Karate you have to 'beat the man to be the man'. You are constantly tested in a Karate dojo. There is a heiarchy in the outside world as well. look at the military itself, and its ranking system.Your superiors dictate a certain type of heiarchy, which could explain the Iranian deal. He may be lying to save his neck. If he told the truth he may be killed. However, if you looked into his eyes, you could tell he was lying, he didn't exude much warrior sprirt to me. Look at some of the POW's and you could see who was afraid and those who showed the warrior face aand didn't show any emotion. So my answer is there is a code of behaviour for all that we do, in kindergarden its one thing, in the dojo another and in the military, similar yet different. We all have codes to live by and I think its more personal, than general

I am so glad I am not the only one overwhelmed O__O I am supposed to be finishing projects and studying for exams. And I am losing sleep over all these questions!

Oh, I had no focus in karate and was awarded 100 push ups then send home early DISHONORABLY because fundamentals of aikido is all I could think about...

But then if Sensei Lou is overwhelmed... I feel justified ;__;

yours not in aiki
-raccoon

Don't be overwhelmed, I'm just getting started!!! If I have got you thinking about aikido, rather than just doimg aikido then I am a happy(ish) man.

I suppose what I'm getting at here is how easy is it to apply your personal code to someone you probably don't like very much.

We all think of bushido as being very honourable and associate it with people we respect and admire. Try placing some of those values on someone you don't admire and it becomes quite difficult. But if we are to gain a true understanding of whatever it is we consider bushido (or whatever) to be, shouldn't we be able to see it in our enemies as well?

Budo

Can we talk about something else? This thinking stuff is too hard for me. I personally keep my code to me. To my students I stress to them to have a code, and explain what a code is. I do not place my values on anyone else. Using "Bagdad Bob" in my view, he was weak, an unworthy adversary. In studying his body postures and listening to him, he was an easy target, and he had no code. According to my code he was nothing more than a mouth piece. My wife and friends see him entirely different, and I have even heard people say hi was the force behind the throne. It all depends on your own warrior code and how you see others. People with no code of behavior or no code at all, could feel fear for someone like him. All I can say its a personal thing, that is a life experience type thing. What is worth fighting over? In Japan you could dishonor someone with words and have to fight. Here is it names, wealth, or loved ones. My Brazillian Jujutsu Sensei was arrested in Brazil because a local Brazillian tried to steal his new Nike's he got here. They fought in the center of a mall, and by the way he was wearing the Nikes. In the middle of the mall these 2 were fighting over Nike's, and the police locked them up in the same cell and told them to finish the fight in there. The winner leaves, the loser spent the night in jail. Fighting over Nike's, being called names, is not in my code, but it is in others.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
Don't be overwhelmed, I'm just getting started!!!
[/QUOTE]
BLOODY MURDER! You mean, this is only the appertizer?? O__O;

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
We all think of bushido as being very honourable and associate it with people we respect and admire.
[/QUOTE]

Do we all, really? I don't know if I do. In fact, I think I know I don't. As far as I understand, bushido code is bloody and brutal. I don't admire samurai's ability to kill heartlessly. I admire O'Sensei's courage to break that ugly and supposedly brave and tough and romantic tradition, and bring some sense into the bu tradition.

You like to think you've successfully dodged my question, but I am going to hunt you down. What's YOUR code like? Do you go by the feudal bushido code? The code that endorse the 5 virtues [kindness, righteousness, manner, wisdom, trust - sorry I read it in Japanese, so it's translated, but I think this is accurate] Or do you go by the one dictated by your country's law / your work departmant? Or do you go by musashin's motto? I am curious to find out!

-raccoon

Well I have to disagree a bit, Bushido in my mind is more than just killing someone. Its an aspect, but they studied literature(classics)caligraphy, haiku's, ikebana(flower arranging), tea ceremony etc. Try to find a copy of Oscar Ratti's Secrets of the Samurai, and it talks about other facets of Samurai training. I actually appreciate the Samuara for not only could they kill, but break limbs or just restrain you. The one thing about Bushido training is the control that is taught. I really don't think it was all blood and guts, but the were military and in war that is necessary. Also, study some Japaneese war strategy and they still use it today. Archers, spears, and Samurai. Today bombs armour and cavalry. same basic priciple. I think they were brilliant stategists too. Do you know the first rifle sight was done by Samurai. They aimed the rifle, it had a plumb attached to a string and hung to the ground. You sight the gun, mark the spot in the dirt, then line up and fire. Pretty smart huh, yea Samurai were pretty impressive in my mind

[QUOTE]Originally posted by senseilou:
Well I have to disagree a bit,[/QUOTE]

I, on the other hand, agree a bit [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] In fact, I agree with everything you said in the previous post. Bushido isn't ONLY about killing, and samurai are the military men, they are warriors at war. But they weren't just airy head brutes; some are highly educated in many disciplines. If applied to samurai, bushido code might even be a code of honor.

But the truth remains that we aren't military men and we are not at war. (alright, your country might be at war, but the fight is over at Iraq) My guess is that you've never killed anyone, and my hope is that you will never have to kill anyone. (At least I hope I wouldn't be the one you have to kill [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG] ) So what's the sense of teaching the kindness that "restrains" our "killing habit /instinct /urge" when we don't have one to begin with? What's the kindness in not killing when it isn't the norm to kill? What's the "courage" in asking your opponent to finish you off when you lose in a fight?

If, modern dojosei at budo are like a club of virgins studying sex, then attempts to apply bushido code on modern "warriors" is perhaps analogous to educating lesbians the importance of proper condom use. Sure, a lesbian might be raped, and us civvy might face deadly force. But the fact remains that we are not constantly engaging death (through killing or risk dying), and IMHO it's ludicrous to live by the feudal bushido code.

But now I am far too curious, what's in your code, sensei Lou?

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-12-2003).]

Woops, never mind. I just reread your post and notice you said you prefer to keep your code to yourself. I respect that, sensei Lou. Sorry for pressing.

-raccoon

All this talk about sex and lesbians, condoms et al. my wife told me I can't be on a porno site, so this is bridging very close.LOL..........About the code, God, corps, country,code. Right out of a "Few Good Men", this I believe is a the Marine code. Notice when I talked about code, I didn't say I followed a Bushido code, I said, it was all not killing and bloodshed. Christians have a code, so do Jews, Muslims etc, all based on certain doctrines. To list all the doctrines that influnce my code would take all night. number 1 is a belief in God, so me and the Marines start off the same. The 10 commandments, society laws, Musashi, Sun Tsu, all play into my code. Family is number 1, no questions asked. My dojo family and my Instructors number 2. My art and my training number 3.. Many elements in my code. Want my wallet, take it, want my watch or car have it, touch my family and I will kill you. Have I killed somebody no, no quite. At 17 I walked in on a robbery with a man who had his gun at my fathers head. when I saw this, I went slightly nuts, jumped the man and beat him unconscience. It took 2 police, my uncle and my Dad to peel me off. What set it off was that I saw the robber fire at my dad and miss, and hit my uncle in the arm. The man tried to kill my Dad, I tried to kill him. My Dad then talked to me about code,"Its a God given right to take a life" was what he wanted to stress to me. He never saw his father shot at it, so my code didn't jive with his. Not only would I have killed him, I would have had no problem doing it. From that day on I was always very protective of my dad, he was a potential victim in my eyes, my code at the time said, I will protect my dad, no matter what, laws, or anything else. Much has changed, but the code still exists, touch my family or attempt to I will kill you. I know it sounds harsh, but my code will not allow me to lose a loved one because of pacificism. So as you can see I am the male lion of the family. Bushido plays a part in my code, as you can see, and I don't condone killing but here is a koan I was once told, and its Bushido

injure rather than hurt
hurt rather than maim
maim rather than kill
kill rather than be killed

and finally
better to be tried by 12, than carried by 6.
So there is much to the code, the most important aspect is this, you can never follow it to a "t" people skirt the laws, violate the 10 commandments(ever lied to your parents? Looked at a neighbors wife or husband?) Littered, got a parking ticket, lied, cheated (especially on income taxes, oe in martial art about who you trained with). The idea of code is something you try to live by and and never have to use the hurting part of your code.

And I see that you wife makes up a bunch of your codes [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Sorry about the Adult rated talks. I simply can't think of a better analogy for people who haven't even broken their natural resistance to hurting/ killing another human being, and yet they talk about the bushido code, the "kindness of warrior" etc.

I am a stead fast pacifist, so I don't know if I totally agree with your code. But then like Cato says, if you want peace, prepare for war. Perhaps there are more efficient ways to achieve peace. And perhaps I will learn.

-raccoon

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-13-2003).]

Oo-er...how did we get from some loony Iraqi guy to lesbians and condoms?? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG] You have to love this internet thing [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/cool.gif[/IMG]

Personal codes - an interesting idea. Are we really free to pick and chose our own standards, or are we a product of the culture into which we were born? Do we value certain morals because they are good, or are they good because we value them?

Irrespective of whether or not you agree with war, raccoon, there must be something that attracts you to martial arts. Most pacifists wouldn't dream of using violence in any circumstances. Using violence to achieve your own goals, however honourable, doesn't strike me as particulaly peacefull. Sure, if you want peace etc. but doesn't that pre-suppose that you condone violence of you agree with its aims? In which case there would appear to be something about the samurai tradition that you like, or else why emulate it now?

I don't think there is anything wrong with admiring people who were brutal when they themselves lived in brutal times. To look at history through modern eyes is always a mistake. In 500 years time people may well consider us martial artists brutal, savage and warlike, but by the standards of the day I don't think we are. Through contemporary eyes samurai were behaving exactly as was expected of them. There is nothing wrong with that.

Budo

Oo-er? Still recovering from your heart attack? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I don't know what's so hard about this. Whenever society supresses something, people become obssessed with it.

In the good old days, when EVERYONE in a family live under one roof - when grandpa, grandma, papa, mommy, brother, sister, uncle, cousin lived in the same cave (or room...), sex was just a fact of life, children aren't kept away from the knowledge. Now, everyone has his own room, sex is secretive and dirty. It's a taboo, a "kinki". At the same time this becomes the norm, porn industry florishes.

In the good old days, life and death were in balance. To stay alive you slaughter animals for food. People make do, people make their own food and live off their own land. They raise Johny the little pig (sorry Cato [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]) and they slaughter it when he is grown. They do so with respect, it's their food. They don't kid around when they do it. Children watch the ritual, they might never get used to it, but they respect it as part of life - death is, killing is.

But these days, as far as kids know, meat comes from the fridge in big market; little Johnny is their pet and they will never find out what he tastes like. (incidentally, my grandma slaughtered and cooked my pet dog when I was lil... I didn't find out it's Bingo on the plate until I ate it ;_; My dad did the same thing to my pet fish, and my hen...) People who still work in farms and "live off their land" send their animals to the slaughter house, the worst they ever have to do is to drag little Johnny out of the barn, but they never have to see what he looks like inside.

My point? Our society is making death/killing and violence very taboo. It's something hidden, only a selected group of specialist deal with it. I am not surprised more and more people become interested in martial arts; but to educate the naive about violence is like a bunch of catholic school virgin boys studying sex, the only women beyond their mom they ever talk to are the nuns!

Aye, Sensei Lou must be frowning over the length. I better stop now [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/eek.gif[/IMG]

-raccoon

P.S. Cato, don't think I've forgotten! You still haven't spilled your code!
P.S. Just because I train does not mean I condon violence. FYI, I have had my share of violence encounters, some of them I came out quite badly hurt, but I never fought back. Perhaps I should quit karate and concentrate on aikido, where I can focus on a few harmless techniques and hopefully become proficient enough to defend my values without mutilating the pacifist principles.

[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-13-2003).]

My code

rational self interest

bushido

judeo christian ethics (but don't go to church anymore)

where 1 has precedence over 2 and 3 and 2 has precedence over 3.

A question for you, jo6p. What's rational? And suppose self interest violates other's right? Does it make any difference if, incidentally, by violating others right to defend your "self interest", something else nice comes out of it?

Like, Suppose you are president of US, the Saddam is in US's way of making profit. Do you have the right to invade Iraq and say you do so to free some Iraqi, even though in reality EVERYBODY knows you invaded the country for the oil?

-raccoon

Rational self interest; I do what makes me happy as long as it doesn't violate other's rights. If they violate mine, I'll try to put an end to their actions. Rationality accounts for the real world and risk. Self interest means it benefits you and doesn't hurt others.

I might not agree with a certain law, but I also may comply with it because it isn't worth the risk breaking it.

You don't violate other's rights to protect your self interest. They have tried to violate yours, and so lose some of theirs or risk you harming them in order to defend yours.

Nations do not profit. Taxation revenues or aggregations of personal profit is not equal to a national profit. Even if it's the reason ( I doubt it,) theres some shabby economics going on.

Nations cannot have self interest, but the Governments can act in the self interest of citizens.

So what you have to decide is wether the invasion was in the interests of the US people, and if they hurt Iraqis, was Iraq going to violate their rights?

It's gang up on Racoon day, but don't take it personal. I have to agree with both Cato and Joe, in a perfect world, we wouldn't have violence-war-hatred-fear etc. Now I know Canada is near perfect and you don't have a lot of the concerns here. In Vancover I did hear of a "Biker" war so turmoil does exist there, though on a much smaller scale then here. So I agree with whoever said on whatever post it was, that you are a product of your environment. Where we live, there are about 1-2 killings a day. Its not Detroit or D.C. but its relatively nasty here. Plus our city has outgrown its freeway system, which was designed for a bout a million people and we are approaching 4. There are 5-10 road rage cases a day. Phoenix is the car theft capital of the country and we have car hijackings all the time. In order to be moral here, you have to have an 'attitude' because its that attitude that can keep you moral. In a case of Road Rage, you tell the guy, hey as*h*le get your F'n ass back in the F'n car or I gonna break your F'n neck. In most cases they realize they bit off more than they can chew, and back off. the language is not very moral, but it did indeed keep me from kicking his ass. However if he doesn't heed the warning I am prepared for war, but to keep the peace I try to scare him off. I talk about code and here is an example of code:

A Western-backed Rattlesnake. Actually I like the Sidewinder myself. When you approach and they feel threatened, they rattle at you, back off everything is ok, if not you get struck. The reason I like the Sidewinder is not only does he rattle and warn, but when he attacks, you have no idea where he is going to attack from, instead of moving linear he moves from side to side and can attack from anywhere, but he warns you first. Want peace, prepare for wear. I wonder, but I bet in Sweeden people would view people here as Violent Monsters, warmongers, baby killers etc. Its all based on your environment

Ganging up on a pacifist raccoon, this is SO wrong! I am calling the SPCA for back ups! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/mad.gif[/IMG]

So... where should I start? Right, take down the alpha in the pack first.

Lou, you foolish young man, the easiest way to win is to make a great long post and give you headaches! Ha! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

‘We are product of our environment’. I agree with HALF of it. If you want to argue about nature VS nurture, we can argue until the day I die winning the Darwin award. I agree environment AFFECTS how we act, but ultimately you can’t hold environment responsible for your actions. Just because you lived in a brutal society doesn’t mean you have to be brutal; to buy in that “society made me, I am helpless victim” crap is to be weak, to me, that’s very un-martial.

Look at Katsu Kaishu, he was born of the samurai class in feudal Japan, learnt his art, and never had to kill anyone. He facilitated the overthrown of the Tokugawa emperor, and made enough enemies on his ways. But in doing so he helped end the feudal period and brought peace and stability to society. That’s something you don’t see in your everyday samurai. Even Musashi didn’t realize the folly of killing to achieve fame until his ripe old age. Pacifism in a brutal world requires exceptional character strength, but it still doesn’t excuse us to resolve to violence.

Back to modern US. If, being verbally aggressive works for you to avoid physical confrontations, great. As long as your aren’t engaging physically, and you aren’t provoking physical violence, I have no problem with it. Some people do budo by karate, others by aikido, I think it’s all good.

What I have problem with is when people resolve to physical violence. What I have problem with are people who start wars and SUPPORT wars, especially when they do so blatantly for some oily, greasy profit.

Only people who aren’t sure of what they believe in have to fight; only people who aren’t very creative and can’t think of a better solution have to resolve to violence; only people who aren’t very smart and want to keep their head in the sand will enter the military. As soon as you engage yourself in a fight, there is no ethic, there is no nobility, there is no right or wrong. There is win and there is lose; there is live and there is death; there is fight and there is give up; there is offense and there is defense, but nothing else.

“Oh, chance to attack. Wait, can’t attack when he has his guards down. That’s not noble.”

War doesn’t work that way; fights don’t either. It’s wrong to walk yourself into situations where you have no choice, where there is no room/ time for ethical judgments. It’s true at all levels. In H2H combat, you “must” hurt your opponent so you don’t get hurt … but you are wrong to get into that fight in the first place. In the armed force, you “have to” shoot people with your AK-47 because captain says fire. But it’s still your fault those people died, because you have chosen by free will to enter the military.

Are we free to make up our own code, just pick up some aikido techniques, and still be aikidoka? [again I am only 5th kyu and nothing I say holds any value, I am only stating my unworldly opinion. Do I have to repeat this every time I post?] My answer is NO. To do so is analogous to taking out kata from karate, or pain, or self denials. You are no longer practicing the art with integrity. You are doing aikido dance.

To summarize, your Sidewinder code is all good, but it’s not aikido’s style as far as I understand. And if you live by that code and claim to be aikidoka, then you are wrong. You are violating the integrity of the art.


.


Back to Cato> I had the preconception that budo is about making peace, and not about condoning violence, way before I started training in anything. Even in “hard style” like karate, I don’t learn to destroy. I learn self-denial, humility, perseverance, tolerance, mannerism, appreciation, and kindness. That’s what I take with me out of the dojo, not the kicks nor the blocks. And therefore, my training in budo does not pre-suppose I condone violence. I still disagree with samurai’s tradition. Children of samurai class are taught to kill animals by the age of 5, execute prisoners by the age of 15. That’s a load of craps to screw a child’s psyche with. No matter how small a kindness, I think it’s wrong to smother. In the book bushido, it talks about too much kindness makes one weak, too much righteousness makes one rigid. I disagree. You can learn to be firm and righteous WHILE being kind. I call it tough love, it’s very aiki.

Oh, right, Joe. Sorry I came off a little aggressive. It’s all Cato’s fault [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] Thank you for clarifying, the “not violate others right” wasn’t immediately clear in the self-interest.

Whew, thanx for the group attack. I think I am finally getting some idea as to how to answer Cato’s waves of inquisitions!

Yours in Aiki
-raccoon


[This message has been edited by raccoon (edited 04-14-2003).]

I think it would have taken an exceptional person to step outside their culture in feudal times, and to decide that they would be non-conformist. It would be even more exceptional if they lasted long enough to do anything about it. Tolerance is the preserve of modern society, and doesn't appear to have had much place in history. I would say the nature/nurture debate is a product of a permissive society.

As for nobility in war, take the present conflict. Is it true to say the western armies could have simply steamrollered their way into Iraq, using overwhelming firepower and massive military superiority to overcome any resistance. Yet they have refused to attack Iraqi batteries hiding in hospitals, despite taking fire from them. Is that a form of nobility?


I'm also curious as to how someone can train in budo, yet not be prepared to defend themselves.

raccoon - I think the way to deal with too many questions is to apply aiki principles and avoid them until your ready to deal with them!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Budo

[This message has been edited by Cato (edited 04-14-2003).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cato:
raccoon - I think the way to deal with too many questions is to apply aiki principles and avoid them until your ready to deal with them!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Yes, and the way to deal with sneaky aikidoka is to keep hunting them down until they are too tired to even tenkan. So Cato, what's YOUR code like?? Let's hear it!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Racoon-Just to be clear, I never said I was an Aikidoka, I studied Aikido, and use the principles, but to say I am an Aikidoka cheapens the art, and frankly lessens what I do. Saying that, remember, if you work empty hands, we are all doing the same thing, with a slightly different approach and flavor. For me personally, I don't want to be labeled anything, except a Martial Artist.

One persons personal code is of no value to anyone else. That is if indeed we can have a personal code.

What is important is the ethics of the art they study. Or at least, the interpretation they put on the ethics of their art.

On a more general level there is a code of conduct that most people would see as desirable in a fighting man (or woman). Such things as loyalty and bravery in the face of overwhelming opposition are more or less universally admired, even if they are apparent in people we despise.

Budo (with yet another tenkan [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] )