Funny

Haaaahaaaa!

I'm sorry, Aikido is generally considered a art for the more intelligent and thoughfull martial artist. I think you'll be more at home over on one of the others.

So Cato, while we are here, explain to me why you think Aiki arts have changed over the past 10 years. In my humble opinion, many practioners here, seem to pretend to be Japanees, rather than train in a Japaneese art. The like the look, talk the talk, but when it comes to training hard, there always seem to be an excuse.....What do you think?

[This message has been edited by senseilou (edited 03-04-2003).]

How long have you got, Lou? I think the reasons behind the diversity within aikido training are manyfold, and would fill a book. In the intrest of not boring the pants off everyone, I'll limit myself to a couple.

First and foremost, I think O'sensei was aikido and the art mirrors the man. He encouraged development away from purely martial aims as he grew older and his aikido from this time does the same. The problem faced by aikidoka is that O'sensei kept the name whilst changing the emphasis of his art.

Therefore it is perfectly correct to say that aikido is both a martial art and a vehicle for spiritual development. But what is often overlooked is that the two things don't go hand in hand. They are different styles, in much the same way as karate varies between Ryuha.

This is exacerbated by aiki arts all coming under the aikido umbrella. For most people aiki jutsu begins and ends with Daito Ryu, and any other aiki art is aikido. In actual fact the style of "aikido" I was learnt was being taught before the name aikido had even been though of. My art should perhaps more peoperly be called Ueshiba ha aiki jutsu, O'sensei did use that name for a short while, before going onto aikbudo and then finally, aikido.

He dropped the "Bu" character from the name to reflect the move away from purely martial aims within his art. Yet I call myself an aikidoka, and my art is considered a rather robust form of aikido, even though there are major stylistic differences between it and a later aikido style, such as Iwama Ryu or Tomiki.

To add further confusion to an already complicated plot, there is the issue of "Ki". I don't even want to begin to start that debate right now, save to say it is another area where opinions differ and no clkar conclusions can be reached. What does ki mean to you? I bet it means something different to me, and something different again to the next person.

So when the Rainbow Warriors state they practice aikido they are probably more entitled to do so than I am. the problem is aikido has become too broad a term, with different meanings for different people. That will always lead to confusion and conflict, which is ironic considering O'sensei's profound beliefs.

There, you did ask. I know I'm only scratching the surface, but it's enough for a start.

Budo

you know what I think Cato........it doesn't matter what I think, but I do agree with your view and I think there is another factor as well. Most Aikidoka are very un-flexible in their accepting of information. They do what is taught to them, exactly how it is taught to them. The won't accept information from a different Aikido Organization, much less than other styles. I can't tell you how many people do things they say are Aiki-like and would make Aikido very functional, but most won't accept anything except from their Sensei or the Head of THEIR organization. I have found Silant, Bhag Wa, and Kung Fu techniques just like Aikido, yet they refuse to look. Silant does an 'Ikkyo' technique and add what they call 'Bissett'. What it is basically is stepping back into a long stance after the ikkyo, it looks like a sweep, but your just moving the leg, to different angles. Now having learned that, you can incorporate a sweep with ikkyo, and we do, but its more of a pre-war ikkyo, complete with atemi waza. I was told that is not Aikido, but it is, it doesn't violate any principles, but they are too rigid to see this.
A student who trained at one of the Shaolin Temples in China visited our Aikido dojo and wanted to train with someone. All the other Black Belts except me ran, and no way would they play with a Kung Fu specialist. His Kung Fu was snake and tiger Kung Fu so I said sure, I will. we had a blast, It was having great fun, he'd attack and I would do a technique then I would, then he would reverse and I would reverse, it was great training. One time I got carried away and did a Sankyo throw, but took his hand between his legs, and he flipped in mid-air, I was about to apologize, but had to admire his ukemi, it was awesome, he was awestruck with the technique so all we did was compliment each other and share information. We hugged vowed to find each other again sometime and he left. My Sensei came and told me I was not doing Aikido, to cut the 'junk' out. I told him though that the techniques we use, I made work. His answer was "its not the way we practice here, either do it our way or leave. I never want to see that s**t again" To noone's surprise, I was gone within the month, I just finally got tired of a one way street, and doing things one certain way. There are several sytles of Aikido, let alone AikiBudo, AikiBujitsu and Ueshsiba-Ha Daito ryu, yet they won't acknowledge any thing but their own. The blinders they wear, hinder their art.

Hope I am not intruding a private thread. If I am, I apologize.

I've probably said this before... people I met in aikido generally turn out to be a lot more defensive and close-minded than people I've met in any other arts. It's the exact opposite of what I expect "aiki" to be.

I think part of the problem is that aikido had acquired a reputation for being a dance, a philosophy, and not budo. O Sensei also forbids shiai. So aikidoka are left accused and have no way to prove themselves. I don't recall seeing any aikidoka challenging masters in other arts to a duel; people like to judge effectiveness of an art by looking at fights results. Aikidoka won't engage themselves in fights, so there is no way to prove it's effectiveness, both to themselves and to others.

To me, defensiveness reflects lack of confidence. It really makes me wonder how many aikidoka truly have faith in their art. I am not only talking about beginners; I know I am in no position to criticise them... but I am going to say it anyway. I am throughoutly disgusted, discouraged, disappointed, by all the interdojo politics/ fights. They don't engage in physical fights alright. But there are so many rivaries. If you are trained under Chiba sensei, or a student of aikidoka under Chiba sensei's wing, you are not allowed to attend Kawahara sensei's semina. When a Japanese Master visited our city last year and to host a one day seminar, kawahara sensei decides to give a seminar on the same day. Students are informed they are not allowed to attend the seminar by the visiting master if they are yudansha. Then there is Ishihama sensei. He came to Vancouver Island before Kawahara Shihan, but since Kawahara is the official chief instructor... I don't care if you are only testing for 5th kyu; if you are tested by Ishihama Sensei, you are going to have to deal with kawahara sensei's wraph. It's common knowledge that the two sensei don't get along.

And the black belts I've met at seminars also have very little tolerance for anything. I was at a particular crowded seminar once, and I was paired up with a 2nd Dan woman who happens to be the wife of the Chief instructor of my dojo. A few seconds after I thrown her onto the tatami, the pair next to us performed the same technique and the uke landed on her foot. It probably hurts, but no real damage inflicted. And she got so mad the poor guys bowed off the mats and left.

I know, this is just what I see in one of the many aikido organizations all over the world... but this is also the kind of behaviors I see in the "grand masters". As I have expressed before, Chiba sensei's behavior doesn't fit into my understanding of "aiki" at all.

Pardon my rants. I love O Sensei's teachings, I am hating what I see.

-raccoon

Absolutely right guys. I think aikido gets a bad press because there is no clear definition of what it should be. Too much BS politics and profit margin MA philosophy has crept in (as it does with most arts) and we have lost our way.

Interestingly, in the UK a similar feeling developed about Judo and there is now a groundswell of opinion that tries to re-establish the ethos of Kano sensei's original art. I think we need something similar to happen within aikido.

I'm not sure I would agree that defensive tactics equals a lack of confidence. I think it is a common theme in a number of MA's and is more indicative of the Budhist philosophy, inherent in Japanese arts in particular.

Budo

Pardon my choice of words, English is not my 1st language. (Excuse excuse [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG])

When I said defensiveness ... what I really meant is over reaction. Antagonizing other dojos is one of them; it tells me they need to put down other dojos to feel good about themselves. Jumping up and down calling you traitor simply because you train with a kung fu artist or because you've added other movements into the aikido techniques is another example.

I don't see anything buddist about it, but then I am not very religious.

-raccoon

I think all 3 of us are in agreement, no matter how we say it. Aikido itself is a good art, and applied with a martial mindset could work. I think the per-war techniques and attitude are martial, the post war is an Art form, to seek the way, and thats fine but its not martial art. My biggest issue is O'Sensei said Aikido should be an EGOLESS art, yet there is more ego there than in any other art I have encountered. I would love to see Aikido go back to its roots as Cato says, but there are too many 'country club Aikido practioners'. If the political, socialazation crab would leave the art alone, it would be a great art.

I think one of the ego factors in other arts is losing. In Aikido, there is no "loser", so humility is hard to come by. In a room full of serious bad mofos, if you get your ass handed to you, you learn humility. The problem with Aikidoka is that (sometimes) the martial is removed, and without that, humility is hard to come by. I guess I'm saying the occasional ass whipping is a good reality check.

Great point Jamoni, and I was going to write this last time and thought better of it, because it might step on someones toes, but your point is well taken. This is what I see. In all the dojo's I have ever trained in except in Aikido you knew "who THE MAN was" He was the one who could kick everyones but in the dojo and everyone knew it. Its usually always Sensei and his most Senior or his favorite, and everyone usually recogonizes this. So in order TO BE THE MAN you got to BEAT THE MAN. Its a sort of respect but its common in many dojo. How many times have you seen an eager Brown Belt try to go after a Black Belt. Aikido just doesn't have this factor. There is no man in the Aikido dojo and they don't want there to be. I have seen Black Belts in other styles come in and just laugh at the infrastructure of the dojo, mainly because there is NO MAN and its hard to look up to everyone wearing a Hakima, and you can't tell the shodan from the yondan. This attitude leads alot of Black Belts in Aikido to think there are THE MAN without having to fight for it

Those are two interesting points that I've never considered before, guys. I'm not sure I understand them though. I've trained for quite a while in ju jutsu and there is a similar situation (as regards training) within that art as is found in aikido, yet the efficacy of ju jutsu is rarely questioned. Why is that?

I didn't say anything bad about Aikido.

It was funny that nobody has posted anything for a long time. Don't be a prick.
I was just seeing if anybody would ever check this board.

Cato.......Once again I don't know. In all my training in all the areas I have trained in,Aikido and Jujutsu don't subscribe to this heiarchy, and I don't know why. But I did run in to it at a Hakko Ryu Jujutsu school once, where they were very arrogant that their Jujutsu was better than any karate around, and wouldn't allow me to strike at all. Funny thing was Hakko Ryu has strikes in it, but they knew they would be out punched. The Brown belt in the school was the school bad ass, so he thought and didn't show any respect to the elders, or myself, even though completely outmatched. But in either art, you don't have to prove on a nightly basis, how good you are, like in karate. In my early Kempo days we sparred every night, and were always compared against one another. Aikido and Jujutsu don't do this, its how far you have personally come along, which is good, but can lead to an over inflated opinion of yourself, because you never have to prove yourself. How many times in Aikido have you seen say a Black belt be outshined by a Brown Belt with some other training, I have seen this on numerous occasions, and the art does not compensate for this type of situation. In Karate that Brown Belt would face the Black Belt and everyone would see who was better. It's just different I guess. Still I think its a mind-set thing. Aikido and Jujutsu are more formally set up and focus on one's improvement and not comparison in the dojo

Cato....I just had another thought, my one for the year. There is an established relationship between uke and nage, one that they feed off each other. What hurts, what doesn't what works what needs tweaking. In karate there usually isn't that feedback, you are your partner's punching bag and he yours. In some cases dialog is exchanged but very few insights aregiven to what you do, like that punch didn't hurt, or you missed my psolar plexis, type thing. in the Jujutsu/Aiki arts that relationship is always give and take, no winner, in Karate each one wants to feel as if won. I think that may be part of it too. My good friend who studied Judo for years and then started karate later in life confided to me he missed the relationship he had with his training partners, that Karate didn't offer the SAME type of relationship. I think that may be our answer.

Time for a beating up a girl story. When I started Aikido, I said very little about my previous training. One senior student had a habit of talking sh#t and belittling her training partners: "My locks are perfect, my takedowns rock, your "energy" sucks, etc." She also had a tendency to crank her locks and talk smack after you tapped. A week into class, she pulled this crap with me. I spun out of the "lock", kicked her legs out from under her, and axe kicked her in the belly. Her attitude improved tremendously, (and so did her locking technique). IF I WAS A BEGINNING MARTIAL ARTIST, she would have ruined me for good. It's easy to be smug in your defenses when no one ever tests them.

Was she tall and Brunette, I had the same problem with her. Just kidding though I think there is one in every dojo. Go too hard and your "manhandling" them too easy and you are being chauvanistic. I wonder if its an Aikido thing, the women who I trained with in karate are really good partners, but have never had a good female partner in Aiki, and haven't ever trained with a female in Jujutsu except my students, so I wonder.

See, eventually we get back to questioning whether or not aikido is an effective MA, or whether practitioners learn to apply it effectively. And Why? because it doesn't have sparring like karate does. I think this is where our opinions begin to diverge.

No, No, No, I don't think so. I think we see things the same way but are expressing them differently. I am talking mind-set. I don't think sparring in Karate has any effect on whether Aikido is or is not effective. I just think they think differently. And if you go some Karate type threads you will find they are in disagreement over the use of sparring, one says its the essence of Karate, the other say sparring is not reality fighting. I personally will not put myself into that debate. You can't question something like that from words behind a keyboard, you must see their words in action.
Having digressed, there is a definite difference in mind-set between Aikido and Karate, and Aikido and Jujutsu for that manner. It its purest form, we are all doing the same thing, handling an attack with our empty hands, after that approach and mind-set change the way it looks.The weakness in Aikido is not the fact that they don't spar, its how they practice, and the mind set they take. I dont think its Aikido that is weak, I think its how they do it, that is. That is not to say everyone is that way, but when you see an effective Aikidoka, you usually say its Aiki-Jujutsu. For my money, people have taken O'Sensei's final years and have slapped that mind set to Aikido, which now becomes art form versus martial art. The early years of Uysheiba were particularly effective(as we have discussed before)and could still be if one chose to do it. The sparring of Karate does set up a heiarchy in the dojo, and Aikido doesn't apply this, therefore the heiarchy in an Akido dojo can lead to anyone who trains a bit harder than anyone else to take on the role as "top dog" whether he is or not. Most schools I have seen just allow this behavior, where in a Karate school it wouldn't stand. Its all mind set, not anything else.

I have no doubts that Aikido is an effective MA. (this is sure to get me blasted, but I just can't resist!) I just think a lot of granola crunchers and yuppy new agers have turned it into the latest yoga.

Jamoni.........I agree, but don't forget the palm pilots, cell phones, beepers, and any other electronic toy they bring to class. Will you be here Friday, let me check the palm pilot, while I make a call on my new walky talky that saves all my techniques by chronological order and definition of Japaneese terms that makes me a better businessman-Christ-Save us all!

Aaah, once again I seem to have jumped in with both feet and slipped over [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Sorry, I get so conditioned toward people knocking aikido that I'm a bit too sensitive about it now. I'm seeking therapy.

Slightly off track now, but I'm curious to know how you find training in aikido and karate alongside each other? Do you find a little karate "leaks" into your aiki (and vice versa) when under pressure in randori or kumite?

[QUOTE]Cato says:

Sorry, I get so conditioned toward people knocking aikido that I'm a bit too sensitive about it now. I'm seeking therapy.
[/QUOTE]

[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] Did you find the therapy effective? If so enroll me too! BTW, That's exactly what I meant when I said I find aikidoist more defensive than people in any other art, but then you are right about people knocking on aikido, too. So all in all, I think it's fair.

as with cross training between aikido and karate ... being a beginner in both arts, I would say it's confusing as hell. The fire of dojo politics also might never cease to burn you.

I never get any chance to use any of the aikido katas/ locks in karate, but being a light weight fighter, the step-tenkan off the line at the last moment concept really helps. If anything, I am learning to move my body so that I just miss my opponent; instead of crashing right into him.

I am also a lot more aware of my posture than my fellow karate dojosei. I try to start my movement from my hara, unlike a lot of color ranks and even some black belts in my dojo, who tend to keep all their energy in their chest. They move like bulls.

As with karate coming into aikido...

My atemi isn't as gentle as it used to be [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG] As a result I am learning to take falls and ukemi that are a lot harder than peers at my level generally have to. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

Alright, that was a half joke, but the biggest thing that changed after I started to train full contact karate is the appreciation of the martial aspects. I have much less problem hitting a fellow dojosei in training for real. I also resist a lot more IN ORDER TO HELP MY NAGE LEARN. I get into trouble with sensei a lot more. But I don't see them as bad experiences. I see them as necessary evil if I were to engage myself in budo aikido.

Speaking of trouble with sensei... I also started sparring in aikido with some senior students. We were on our own, behind our sensei's back. Some of us got some broken bones and a few stiches on the head... but it's still great fun. I think we all feel a lot more confident about aikido after some sparring. Sensei Lou is right about karate sparring not any more street effective than aikido type cooperative training. In a self defense situation I could only hope I won't be exchanging kicks and punches for more than 30 seconds like I do in karate. That said, sparring - and desire to win (ego) while sparring - give us much better sense of what works and what doesn't. (Or what I can do and what I can't). I was "dismayed" by an "aggressive aikido sempai" who is a lot bigger, and after taking too many punches and still can't catch my wrist... decides to just grab my guard and kote gaeshi/ irimi nage me silly! And to my dismay they even worked...


In training I tend to use a lot more brute force - muscle - instead of my center and the unbendable arm etc. I suppose that's bad influence, it's hard to switch between the two modes.

The spirit is also hard to switch - the cooperative, protect-the-uke spirit in aikido and the fight-like-there-is-no-tomorrow spirit in karate simply don't mix. Many senior had told me to "relax, you are not in karate".

My stance is a lot lower than my peers in aikido, my guard is usually up, when I take a fall I make sure I re-engage (by eye contact etc) my nage asap etc. as if I am worried they will kick my head or something. In short, I am a lot more aware.

I also catch my sensei's atemi a lot more [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

I also don't get mad when I get hurt - unlike most aikidoist from my area, who would jump up and scream at you silly if your uke crashed into them.

I also slipped into the cat stance/ crane stance quite often. My sensei had given me clear warning about doing that in front of Kawahara shihan...

To summarize, the major factor that leak into aikido after I trained karate isn't so much the individual techniques, but the spirit.

Interesting to see what others say, good thread!

-raccoon

In my area there are three Aikido schools that cannot be dismissed outright (I've lost count of the dismissable ones). The first is under Stephen Segal. Old school, pre-satori Segal. These guys are the Cobra Kai of aikido. Great technique, hard as nails, and insufferable a-holes, every one.
The second is a little hole in the wall. This school is not martial at all, but everyone is respectful, they have a great outlook, and are basically using aikido to become better people.
The third is in the nice part of town. Their technique is shit, they do aikido because it's trendy, and to hear them talk, their "ki" is totally fricking awesome. I hope so, because their humility and martial ability is seriously in question. It bugs me to see somebody getting NONE of the benefits of training.

I have trained at the Stephen Segal school and with him at a Seminar-early one, before he got heavy, and he was 'catlike' and his technique was impeccable-Trained with his Japaneese wife, also(Fujitana Sensei) whose technique is very percise but not very physical. Make no mistake, Segal Sensei's Aiki works. I saw him Iriminage a uke with a knife and knock him cold, big touch good Aikidoka. All my respects to him. Speaking of him, he does some karate as well(his wife said he studied Shotokan while in Japan but he denies it). Its incorporated in what he does. In my training I apply Aiki-concept to my Karate, which seems like a dichotomy, but really isn't. Philosophically, its mind body and spirit, which is not limited to Aiki. In Aiki, the first thing you do is Kuzushi, the same can be applied in Karate. When someone attacks, your strikes can be done to off balance him, instead of destroying him. I was taught an advanced technique quite by accident, that in Aiki, folding a person, is a type of Kuzushi. Unbalancing can be in many directions. when you fold someone, to the front, to the back, or to the sides, this is unbalancing. So when you strike, you strike to fold their body so its in the useful position for your technique.Why not do this in Karate as well. I don't claim to do Aikido/Jujutsu any longer-its an ijustice to the art, but I definitely use the Principles in everything I do. My karate is part of my Aiki and my Aiki is part of my Karate, my body has incorporated the movements as 1.
P.S. I don't do hard karate type blocks but soft circular paries if you are wondering about the contradiction of energy flow and blocking.

Oh, I know Segal's technique is good, and so are his students. Our school was under Renosa Sensei, and he did not play games. It just seemed like the attitude was thick enough to cut.
Lou, like you, I can't say I practice Aikido. I only took it because it was the best option in the area at the time. I do incorporate what I learned there, as well. It's mainly just that my balance is better, my movement more fluid and precise. And I have other options than stand there and slug it out.

It seems there are a lot of people who take aikido to compliment their favoured style. What is it about aiki aerts that make them so good for cross training?