Sine Wave (ITF TKD)

Posted by: Dobbersky

Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/19/11 09:20 AM

All

I need you guys to advise me what the Sine Wave is for.

I have popped to my local ITF Dojang, got my ITF Dobok and raring to go, even though I got to put on a White belt again.

I need to understand the SineWave, what's it for?

What's the application of the technique, with the "up/Down" effect comes into play?

Where did it originate from as I have researched some ITF schools don't teach the Sine Wave to their Forms (Poomsae)?

Is it more Western Schools putting the Sine Wave in as opposed to Korean School etc/

I'm also learning Koryo Poomsae (WTF) from a student of mine.

I am Japanese/Korean Karate based as you already know and we tend to glide without a Sine Wave on the Forms I'm used to doing.

Looking forward to your responses etc

Thanks
Posted by: gojuman59

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/19/11 09:48 AM


Dobbersky-san I can only give you my take on sine-wave from my time 20 years ago. As I remember the purpose of the dropping into techniques was to gain power to the technique. It works to some degree.Example: breaking.
My problem with sine-wave is that the time used to drop into a technique makes you slow.It takes too much time. It also looks a little goofy.
I bought into the whole sin-wave thing once, but now it I realize it only has application against another person using sin-wave.
I'm trying not to art bash, but I took ITF TKD through 2nd Dan and I don't use much of it in my new skill set. Alot of it isn't really practical for Self-defense. For sparring it's pretty fun though.

Mark......A-2-USTF-1366-ITF
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/19/11 10:56 AM

Dobbersky

There was a study done at the University of Limerick a while ago where some black belts from a local ITF club done straight punches against a sensor to measure the force. They done punches with the sine wave and without the sine wave.

They found that on average the punches from the Sine Wave were only something like 0.16% harder than the punches without the Sine Wave. Although this isn't a conclusive study because it was pretty small, it still raises doubts about how effective Sine Wave was about generating power.

I think it might be a case of perceived power vs actual power. I've seen guys in martial arts who tense their muscles before they strike. It makes them feel powerful (perceived power), but in reality it isn't at all helpful for their striking ability (actual power).

I think StuartA wrote a lot about Sine Wave.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/19/11 12:17 PM

To be cynical, I often felt the sine wave was just ITF's way of differentiating itself from old Chang Hon groups.

I recall when GTI (Global TKD International) split from TAGB (TKD Assoc of Great Britain) in the early 1990's. GTI decided to look at (re)joining ITF. It's worth pointing out that TAGB was formed by some of the top UKTA (ITF) practitioners in UK breaking away. many had studied and graded under Master Rhee Ki Ha and General Choi.

GTI arranged with ITF for a seminar, workshops and discussions about (re)joining ITF. The General came over to England and held a seminar where he outlined the sine-wave. This was something totally new to those of us who weren't ITF. He pointed out how "true TKD" (not "phoney WTF karate").

Considering how many of our instructors had either studied first hand with, or under high ranking students of Master Rhee, I found it strange how in 10 years they could have become such out-of-date practitioners.

Other commentators on these boards who are much more knowledgeable than me have pointed out sine-wave (or elements of it) existed for a long time in original ITF practice before it became as prominent as it is today, so perhaps I am just being a little too cynical.
Posted by: gojuman59

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/19/11 04:43 PM



I sort of picked an elitest attitude from those teaching the Sine-wave back in the day. When I went to instructors courses that Gen. Choi taught he drove the sine-wave into the ground. Like it was the only way to do it and that others were imposters. I think that the General just wanted to have a version of the art that he could be in total control. It's interesting that there never was any mention of the shotokan tie in. Hmmnnn.....


Mark
Posted by: trevek

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/20/11 02:32 AM

Yeah, I remember him saying something in an interview that the Shotokan elements had been phased out (or something like that).

Funny, at the seminar in question, we were also shown a "new way" of taking up position for 3-step sparring... because the "old way" of putting your arm up to gauge the distance "was not scientific".

My use of the word "phoney", is actually quoting the General. Someone asked him what he thought of all the other kinds of TKD and he replied that there was only one kind of TKD... the others were "phoney".
Posted by: gojuman59

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 08/23/11 11:28 AM


I remember all the "scientific" talk. Blah..Blah.. Blah.I look back on it now and think about them saying:This must be done scientific. Add this with the Sine wave and it's no wonder that the human element of patterns and step sparring..... was absent.It seemed that the art portion of ITF TKD looked like you were to be a robot. I came to this conclusion after years away for the art.
I better stop now as I'm bashing again.Bad gojuman, go sit in the corner.


Mark
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/10/11 09:48 AM

I think that many of the above sentiments have some credence. I also think that SW had/has a political element to it. It was also used to distinguish original TKD from the honorable karate roots. While I am aware of some studies that have said it may increase power slightly, it does feel more powerful to me. But again, that is only how it FEELS to me. Maybe it is related to the tensing at the appropriate moment that actually makes me feel like it is more powerful. I remain open to that. Thanks for that addition.

BUT to the most often criticism of SW by people who are either ignorant to the theory or have not been taught properly as to the theory:
SW is but 1 element of the 6 factors of the theory of power. In fact, the factor that it is only an element of, actually has other elements to it! So when you put that element into that single factor & then combine it with the other 5 factors, you get an understanding how IN THEORY you can increase power when executing basic techniques in isolation. Now what does this mumbo jumbo mean?
The best way to explain it is to use a very appropriate analogy of shooting a gun. If anyone knows how to shoot a gun, they made be aware of all the factors that must come into play if you are to hit the posted target in training with the bullet. There are certain elements or factors that one must apply scientifically to the process of shooting a gun & hoping to hit that target down range. Take away one of this minor factors & the bullet will miss the target. Ignore more of many of the factors & you will not even "hit paper" & may even get banned or thrown off the range!
But in a combat firefight, your combat training should be your fall back response. In other words, while you do not necessarily ignore principles or the factors of scientific shooting, you basically have to just point & shoot. In a firefight combat situation, you do not have the time nor should you try to shoot a live hostile opponent with gun like you would a hanging paper target on a range.

However it always seems that those who critique SW do so from a very uninformed position, with many never even having any formal training in it, under someone who really understood it's proper place in the syllabus. There are some so called ITF masters that don't even know how it was meant to be applied, IMHO!

So like Gen. Choi taught & wrote, one must have realism in their training, especially when it comes to SD fighting. Basic theories are just that & they should be applied in basics, in isolation during certain aspects of one's training. Combat training, like SD or sports competition require you to adapt principles AND train those principles differently when it comes to the afroemention categories.

One of the things or questions I have repeatedly asked, is what are the other styles of TKD teaching about power generation? Do they even have a written theory of power? Do they distinguish increasing power for power test or breaking with sports competition or real fighting?
I have never really read many substantive responses. Maybe some of the SW critics or others can share how they are taught? Or what their textbooks state?
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/10/11 01:18 PM

ITFUnity

I understand that there might be people who aren't incorporating the Sine Wave movement as they should in TKD and this can distort it's effectiveness.

Are you aware of any scientific studies specific to ITF TKD that show the Sine Wave, when used with other elements as you say, creates a more powerful punch? The reason I ask is that I've read about the science behind the Sine Wave in TKD but I've never come across actual studies that show that Sine Wave movement combined with other elements you mention allows a person to generate more power than they would by any other punching method.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/14/11 11:06 AM

No I am not aware of any scientific studies that have been conducted. Mr. Anslow has reported on a small study conducted maybe in Canada by the ITF-V. I am not sure how scientific it was, nor would I feel very comfortable with a study conducted by an involved party, due to bias related issues.
In that study, I think there were minor increases in some areas, no change in others & some loss of power in other areas. I also do not think there was a large sample size & other controls that scientific research requires in order to pass the snuff test.

Bottom line is that it FEELS more powerful to me. But lime I said, it is for performing basic, fundamentals in isolation. Think power test or breaking.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/14/11 11:12 AM

To any critic of sine wave:

Have you ever seen an ITF fighting in any tournament bobbing up & down doing sine wave?

I ask this, as it is an often reported critique of sine wave, ie it is not realistic. So has anyone ever been to a tournament or seen a video of any ITFer moving these way in any fight?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/14/11 03:08 PM

I have sparred several TKD folks that did that. I actually just thought it was poor form, LOL. I was shocked to find out that they had been taught to do that. Sine wave is very easy to time, IMHO - at least in sparring.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/18/11 01:22 PM

I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS!

Sorry! It is not that I can't believe what you wrote is true, BUT I simply can't believe that someone was taught this & actually tried to apply it that way!
(Also not sorry for shouting, because I was! LOL!). wink

Now I have to ask some follow up questions:
What ranks were they?
Did or do they train at a registered up to date ITF Dojang?
Do they have ITF BB Certs (if BBs)?
Do they actually compete in ITF Tournaments with continuous rules?
If so, how do they fare?
And if they compete in real ITF Tournaments, do they see others competing in fighting doing that as well?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/19/11 11:48 AM

They were black belt level, but I don't remember specifically what rank they were. This was 10+ years ago, so I can't answer any of the other questions, sorry. But I have seen other TKD people at tournaments doing the same thing since then.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/20/11 02:02 PM

I have no doubt what Matt has said; I'm sure there are some that do spar and use the sine wave technique but I would be it is very few and may be school specific.

From watching videos and seeing some in person, sparring looks like sparring regardless if TKD ITF, TKD WTF, Karate, etc. There is kicking, punching, foot work, etc. If SW is that much powerful why is it not carried more over to the sparring?

[Don't read too much into this as bashing; I have seen some spectacular ITF fighters and envy their abilities. However when they fight it looks just like that; fighting, which cannot be distinguished from other fighting forms. Has their own personality and flair.]

I had an opportunity in my years of training to be invited to train with an ITF school which I did for 3 or 4 classes. I found it difficult to do the SW in the patterns however I followed along as best as possible. When it came to drills of punching and kicking, SW was not present and it was no different than the drills I did in my own school. Again if SW is that much powerful why is it not carried over to the drills?

SW definitely makes ITF stand out; it is their own. That Choi said other schools were "phoney", I think that just lowered him to the same level as other practitioners who think their system is the end all be all. I would rather train under a person, especially a system, where the teacher encouraged its students to learn other arts to see the difference for themselves and add those skills to their own to make them better. That is a true martial artists; open minded. When you close your mind than you stop learning; that is what Choi did in my opinion.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/20/11 02:14 PM

Originally Posted By: Prizewriter
There was a study done at the University of Limerick a while ago where some black belts from a local ITF club done straight punches against a sensor to measure the force. They done punches with the sine wave and without the sine wave.

They found that on average the punches from the Sine Wave were only something like 0.16% harder than the punches without the Sine Wave. Although this isn't a conclusive study because it was pretty small, it still raises doubts about how effective Sine Wave was about generating power.


I think the studies were bias; an ITF school trying to prove that SW is better. Did anybody in the study actually hit harder without SW? And that after all the punches were done they just averaged it? I would be more readily to believe such a thing if the participants were all of equal height and weight. All had equal years of practice in their arts and included ITF, WTF, Karate, Boxers, etc. In fact the boxer probably could hit harder which than I guess would prove that all other punching arts are less; correct?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/20/11 03:38 PM

I could believe that sine-wave does increase punching power a bit; it is similar in concept to the kenpo principle "marriage of gravity", which uses downward motion to add weight to some strikes. The problem I saw was the giant "tell" caused by the up/down movement, which most experienced fighters would be able to see and avoid long before the strike landed.

0.16% is not enough of a power addition to warrant taking the risk, IMHO. I'm sure that it isn't meant to be applied like the way I saw it, and saw many things mis-applied in kenpo, too. I have also worked with some truly awesome TKD folk in sparring, too.
Posted by: VDJ

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 10/21/11 01:39 PM

Guess I'll way in a little. First, I have to agree with Dereck regarding that at the ITF schools I have visited the SW is only present in the patterns and 1,2 & 3 step sparring. The latter made more sense as it is designed for SD practice where I can see it getting used in a real life situation but not as exaggerated (rather than bounce, finishing a technique at the same time your foot is stepping in and delivering the blow). Sparring Drills have been almost identical in most MA schools.

Dereck, I think that you maybe a little out of context on what the General said regarding "Phonies" (and I'm sure ITFUnity and/or Master Weiss can confirm this). I believe that he was referring more so to schools that declared themselves TKD (WTF,GTF) and the like due to the animosity between the orgs. As I understand it, he encouraged training other arts outside of TKD. Again, that was something that I had been told by someone whom I respect and have no reason to doubt. But again, I know the 2 gentleman I mention above have some rather personal experience with the General.

Finally, I also believe that ITFUnity made mention in an earlier post that he thought that the "Test" that was done was probably biased as well. So I think everyone is on the same page here with that.

VDJ
Posted by: EarlWeiss

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/10/11 03:18 PM

Yep, I bet those ITF guys using pattern type sine wave in sparring were the same ones using traditional stances and pulling the opposite hand to the hip when sparring as well:)
Posted by: trevek

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/12/11 08:19 AM

Originally Posted By: VDJ
I think that you maybe a little out of context on what the General said regarding "Phonies" (and I'm sure ITFUnity and/or Master Weiss can confirm this). I believe that he was referring more so to schools that declared themselves TKD (WTF,GTF) and the like due to the animosity between the orgs.

VDJ


When I heard him say that, it was WTF he was reffering to.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/12/11 08:25 AM

ITFUnity,

you ask in an earlier post what kind of power generation the other schools were teaching. At the time I was in GTI (former TAGB) and they were teaching waist-twist and reaction hand. Around that time there was also a very patronising, butt-licking article in UK MA press about someone being taught 'true TKD', not 'outdated waist-twist'.
Posted by: Matakiant

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/16/11 08:09 PM

I can assume what a ''waist twist'' is in general but what is a ''reaction hand''?

Just curious.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/17/11 04:46 AM

Like left hand 'back to hip' from punch position as you punch with right hand.

Do it at the same speed and it adds to the waist-twist power.

At least that's what we were told :-)
Posted by: Matakiant

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/18/11 12:55 AM

Well what would the punch position be? And back to hip would be a ''traditional chamber'' or something else?

Is it basically when you hit with your right hand you ''pull back'' your left?
Posted by: trevek

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 11/18/11 05:04 AM

Yeah, but the pulling back/chambering is also to add power (apparently). If you look at something like Wing Chun or boxing, the use of the chamber/reaction isn't as pronounced (if at all), whereas in TKD (especially waist twist) it is used to generate power as well.
Posted by: EFRAIN

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/09/12 11:15 AM

Guys, read the book titled,

"A KILLING ART"
The untold history of Tae kwon do.

By Alex Gillis

Awesome book! It's explains many things being asked in this post and so much more... I recommend this book to all.
Posted by: ALPHABET_SOUP

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/25/14 10:06 AM

Originally Posted By: Dereck
I think the studies were bias; an ITF school trying to prove that SW is better. Did anybody in the study actually hit harder without SW? And that after all the punches were done they just averaged it? I would be more readily to believe such a thing if the participants were all of equal height and weight. All had equal years of practice in their arts and included ITF, WTF, Karate, Boxers, etc. In fact the boxer probably could hit harder which than I guess would prove that all other punching arts are less; correct?


The bias in the study was not so much that the school was trying to prove that SW is better, the bias was in using only ITF practitioners who were used to doing the sinewave so were naturally better at it than using the hip twist.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/28/14 04:57 AM

A poster "Martialist" on another Forum had this to add about the Sine Wave

"Look, Honestly, I did the SINE WAVE for 10+ years. It is useless. I met spoke with a real close friend(Grandmaster Kim Bok Man) of General Choi and he stated that he thought that sine wave was useless. He approached the General before his passing and and told him. General Choi agreed with him and wanted to revert, take out, the Sinewave technique out of Taekwondo. But the ITF and other related federations were too big and indoctrinated, and basically to late to change because of General Choi's I'llness at that time.

If you don't believe me look up Master Kim Bok Man. He is basically one of the handful surviving members of original Korean Martial Art and it's transformation into Tae Kwon Do in the late 40's to 50's.

Seriously dude, No need to explain something that literaly has no explanation to Really, SINE WAVE was just made up and justified by General Choi all for making it look unique which he did very well. I did it for 10+ years and I know first hand that it's BullS***! You will have guys try to justify it any way they can but if you have an open mind you will understand that it just does not make sense...

I teach my style TKD and the sinewave is completely taken out of my curriculum....



Taekwon!"
Posted by: gojuman59

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/28/14 09:48 AM

Dobber-san speaks the truth! I also did sine-wave. All that rising and falling was just wasted movement. I always thought it was a silly way of power generation. Totally unrealistic and certainly unusable in a self-defense situation.
Posted by: ALPHABET_SOUP

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/29/14 09:12 AM

Since I was asked to contribute to this thread by another poster I will add my 2 cents worth on the sine wave, from a physics perspective:

There is a concept in Tae Kwon Do, introduced by General Choi Hong Hi called the sine wave. It has been introduced as part of a scientific theory that claims to use physics to explain the use of a bobbing up and down motion combined with a forward movement to produce power instead of using the hip twist that is used by just about every other martial art out there. General Choi was a great man and a great martial artist but he was no scientist. Here is where the sine wave concept breaks down:

The equation given in the encyclopedia on page 47 of volume 2 is;

P = 1/2mv2

Where P = power

m = the mass

v = velocity.

However this is not the scientific formula for power, it is the formula for kinetic energy. Not power. Power would be the change in kinetic energy divided by time.

Another formula that has been used on a school’s website is;

P = 1/2mv2 + mgh

Where; mgh = 0 for no sine wave.

g = the acceleration due to gravity and h is the height.

This formula is used to attempt to show that a downward motion affects a horizontal motion. The + sign in the formula indicates that the 2 terms are independent of one another (one does not affect the other), if they were dependent then the terms would be multiplied. This is a valid equation for the total energy of a strike but only applies (when mgh does not equal 0) to movements that have a downward component, e.g. a downward punch or low section side kick. It is an accepted scientific theory that for objects moving under the influence of gravity, the horizontal and vertical components of the movement do not affect each other.

Another correct formula for power is;

P = W/t

Where W = work done and t = time;

By eliminating time (making it =1unit in seconds, minutes etc.), concentrating on the RHS of the equation and using the definition of work you have:

W = F*d*cos(theta)

Where F = the applied force, d = the distance moved and cos(theta) = the cosine of the angle of movement in relation to the applied force. A cosine wave is just a sine wave shifted by 90 degrees. For any angle smaller than 90 degrees or larger than 0 degrees cos(theta) = <1, which can be seen when dragging an object along the floor by a rope. When the rope is at an angle it is harder to move the object than if the rope was along the ground. For an angle of 90 degrees (the dropping of the hips in the sine wave movement) cos(theta) = exactly 0. In other words the pure downward motion contributes absolutely nothing to the power generated horizontally.

This is simple physics which is called Newtonian mechanics.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/30/14 07:07 AM

ALPHA

We all havev access to the "Scientific" reasoning behind the sine wave, but what is YOUR opinion of it please.

I'm with my friend "Martialist" regards to its uselessness.

If it was that good, it would be used in everything, but at present its used ONLY Poomsae/Tuls/forms not in the Self defence combinations etc.

Also on a side note on some of the forms the hands come back to the waist before striking this to me is detrimental. try have someone in boxing gloves punch you full speed in the face as you do this block/strike and see if you can bloke it BEFORE he hits you in the face
Posted by: ALPHABET_SOUP

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/30/14 08:53 AM

As both a martial artist and a scientist I find the concept of using a sinewave to generate power in lieu of the hip twist to be fundamentally flawed. I personally think it ruins the look of the patterns . Without twisting the hips the punches become more like arm punches. The up and down movements for horizontal strikes are a waste of energy (any movement of the striking hand that is not in the direction of the strike does not add to its power). The bobbing up and down decreases the balance by raising the C.O.G. Personally I am glad I have never been subjected to the sinewave as I find it rather non-sensical.
Posted by: gojuman59

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/30/14 05:03 PM

One can generate tons of power without Sine-Wave or hip twist. If one can keep knees bent and smear feet to link body from ground through legs then core and finally through the striking arm it's very powerful. his type of punch depends on the back muscles to generate a devastating strike.
The key is to be mobile enough between strikes. When the opportunity to strike comes one must be grounded immediately to launch the punch.
This comes from a self-defense perspective. In a sport setting one might not get the opportunity because opponent is bouncing around.
Posted by: Dobbersky

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 01/31/14 04:55 AM

Originally Posted By: gojuman59
One can generate tons of power without Sine-Wave or hip twist. If one can keep knees bent and smear feet to link body from ground through legs then core and finally through the striking arm it's very powerful. his type of punch depends on the back muscles to generate a devastating strike.
The key is to be mobile enough between strikes. When the opportunity to strike comes one must be grounded immediately to launch the punch.
This comes from a self-defense perspective. In a sport setting one might not get the opportunity because opponent is bouncing around.

Agreed. if you take K-1 or a Muay Thai Fight, you don't see the fighters bouncing around like they're on springs etc. they have solid stances and react instinctively. I prefer old school TaeKwonDo before the Sine Wave when they were more into martial arts than trying to create and Olympic sport or differenciate themsleves from Japanese Karate - Tang Soo Do MooDuk Kwan concidered by many as Korean Shotokan is a very very nice style and they don't use this "sine Wave". If the Sine Wave was actually useable surely a few other style would have adopted it?
Posted by: THEFOREVERMAN

Re: Sine Wave (ITF TKD) - 02/25/14 01:27 PM

I don't know what sine wave is but do know Muay Thai! I really like it, I'm making my own style and Muay Thai takes a big part in it. Sure Muay Thai is solid. But that's what I like about it. It's direct like karate(kinda).