Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA.

Posted by: Shonuff

Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/09/08 10:39 PM

Enjoy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWUWhp7vOR0&feature=related
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/09/08 11:07 PM

cool! i've never seen a KO with that kick before.
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/09/08 11:45 PM

He knocked him down,not out, because he was off balance from all the jumping and flopping around with his hands uselessly hanging at his sides.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/10/08 12:39 AM

looks like he was holding his nose on... then again I block with my face now and then too.

4th dans (black strip on pants) at least. Young and going for the show off 3-point jump kick to the head...
Posted by: jasperdaman

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/10/08 10:08 PM

Lol it was just like tornado kick...miss. tornado kick....miss. Wow this is easy i dont even need to keep my arms up. Tornado kick...connect. Who would think that u get hit if ur hands are at ur sides, 4th Dan.....ok....that is all
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/10/08 11:12 PM

Quote:

Who would think that u get hit if ur hands are at ur sides, 4th Dan.....ok....that is all




Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 03:48 AM

Foot tag. Nothing but foot tag. God, why did I waste a quarter century on this?
Posted by: EFRAIN

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 11:41 AM

Dude, with so much kicking those 2 guys where doing someone was bound to get kicked and especially when they are both holding their belts, lol. Nice kick thought (the kick was i think a 360 spinning hook/heel kick).


Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 01:47 PM

Quote:

Foot tag. Nothing but foot tag. God, why did I waste a quarter century on this?




You did ATA for 25yrs? No wonder you are so miffed,lol.

What rank were you 25th degree?
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 04:27 PM

What I found impressive was that he landed a 540d jump spinning kick.

He landed it not because the guys hands were down, but because he used the spin to fake out the opponent and draw him in.

While a guard would have helped, most people keep their guard at mid height, only some boxers or thai boxers hold a high gaurd all the time (as in even when they are closing). Guards are not really relevant if you are using a ranged fighting style as your aim is to control the opponent with distancing not physical pressure. Evasion and counter is the way to go. This is a TKD tournament, an exposition of ranged combat and effectively a duel. I wouldn't expect anyone to use this kick in self defense against an untrained fighter, a one on one duel is different. It relies on chess like strategy anticipating how the opponent will move and the winner in this vid did this perfectly.

It's incredibly easy to mindlessly diss these guys, but I can't even do a 540d jump spinning hook kick, let alone perform it with the body inflection to fake my opponent.

Someone commented on the tip tap nature of the fighting, well IMO that makes it even more impressive. That kick carries so much momentum it should've taken the guys head off. The fact that the winner threw the kick relatively slowly and still landed it is impressive, but he did it with enough control to only bust the guys nose as well. As I said I couldn't do it.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 04:54 PM

It's definitely a physical feat, there's no quesiton there. Coming from an art where we rarely kick above waist height I am always impressed by the athleticism of TKD.

I think people have the reaction they do because you have to admit, it may be alot of things but practical is not high on that list, that said I think one can appreciate the kind of agility and training it takes to pull something like that off.

I couldn't do it either, but I'll bet the spectacle of me trying would be far funnier than these guys!
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 06:35 PM

Practicality is a matter of environment. Why would people expect to see street lethal self defense in a TKD tournament?
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 06:55 PM

i wish i could do a 540 hook. ever since i screwed up my ankle trying, i have been afraid to really go for it and that is what can really inhibit progress.
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 07:42 PM

Quote:

Practicality is a matter of environment. Why would people expect to see street lethal self defense in a TKD tournament?




Well I wouldn't expect to see anything lethal in any tournament hopefully.

However it seems to me training like this is pretty much only practical for TKD tournaments, I can't see any other area where this kind of specialized skill is useful.

We can all agree there are easier ways to go about it if your goal is to strike someone's head or face and knock them down.


I respect the athleticism and skill here, I just 1don't see it as having a whole lot of value in terms of use outside of the tournaments it's used for.

If you think this sort of thing has much applicability outside of tournments i'd have to simply respectfully disagree.
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 09:24 PM

It's a dueling technique so you would try to apply it in any kind of one-on-one fight. High risk for high reward.

There is no magic field in a dojang or tournament arena that allows unusual techniques to work better or hit harder, there is only the skill of the person using it, which was my point in posting it.

A technique like this is applicable wherever you can find an opponent whose reactions are such that you can encourage him to walk into it.

I actually feel most non Taekwondo MAists would be susceptible to being hit by this technique simply because of the tendency to try to close in and take advantage of any kind of jump or spin. Attempting to attack during the spin is precisely what got the guy in the video hit.

One of the important things to realize about TKD spinning kicks is that all the time he is spinning he's not actually committed. If you step in with a high guard, expecting the hook kick, he can change to a straight back kick to your unguarded midriff. There's a lot of deceptiveness involved in making effective use of the feet in dueling environments. For pure self defense, things are done differently.

One of the biggest weaknesses of the modern MAist is not knowing the difference, although in the last 10 years or so that has begun to be addressed by the resurgent drive towards effective technique for fighting.

There was a TV show here in the uk called fight school: bunch of MAists go to train in seclusion in china, each day they complete challenges weakest has to fight to stay in. One guy on this show routinely hit people (from a variety of styles and backgrounds) with a hand plant kick. Single arm hand stand and kick to the face in one motion. A rediculous technique! He must have landed it 3 or 4 times in the series. Would he do it against a gang of thugs in an alley maybe not, but against 1 guy who gave him the same opening that the guys in the show did, maybe he might???

I'm of the mindset that techniques fit situations, hence every technique is useful if you have the wisdom and skill to apply it correctly.

IMO self defense is actually a very small and simple area of MA. Most yellow/green belt syllabus's cover everything people need to know to beat joe average and most high kyu/kup grades should have the skill to apply it (though maybe not the fitness or mental composure). Most of the skills of the MAist are meant for duelling or fighting with the odds against you, so a 4th dan TKD fighter in a TKD tournament should really not be criticized (not specifically speaking of you Zach) for using fancy kicks.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/15/08 09:41 PM

Good point, Shonuff. I had a somewhat similar idea a while back, on terminology/environment:

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...f97fd04b8b5fa33
Posted by: TKD-Skippi

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 08:59 AM

nice points guys, not every one you meet in the world is a MMA master.
Its been my opinion for a long time that anyone who has ever felt a 'jumping, spinning back piercing kick' would have no doubt as to its usefulness. first time i ever felt one it came through a kick shield. i was fully ready and waiting for it to land. nicely braced with another guy holding the shield with me. after it landed and we both got to out feet i decided i wanted to learn TKD. even in a bar fight a kick like that would be handy if the opportunity presented itself. i shudder to think what it would be like to take such a blow straight to the chest or gut...of course you would need to be more than just 'good' to utile such a technique.
Posted by: mangoman

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 12:39 PM

Quote:

However it seems to me training like this is pretty much only practical for TKD tournaments, I can't see any other area where this kind of specialized skill is useful.




Have you ever stopped to think that maybe there are some people out there that do TKD stictly for the sport aspect and they really dont give a poop about TKD as a martial art?

Perhaps the guys in this video view it as such. Or maybe just one of them. Who knows.

My daughter practices TKD purely as a sport. Therefore everything she does in class (with a coach who looks at it purely from a sport aspect and fellow students that look at it purely from a sport aspect) is done with the goal of winning in competitive environments.

Would she get her butt kicked on the street? Maybe. Would you and everyone else her get their butts kicked on the street? Maybe.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 01:38 PM

mango

Good point...honestly.

And its true that pretty much everybody's art has a least "something" that if you looked at the right (or wrong) way can seem pretty goofy.

The thing is that people/groups etc often get caught in a gap between what they say and what they actually do.

My guess is that the guy teaching your daughter does NOT tell prospective students that what they do in this school is designed/taught for the MAIN "goal of winning in competitive enviroments."

Maybe he does--and if so the coach should be commended for his/her honesty.

My guess its a specific class in additon to normal training....I'm just making a point.

And BTW its NOT just a "TKD" problem.......I know at least one karate teacher that has switched nearly his whole format to competitive open meets---that was what the majority of his students was interested in....so he went the direction of his best and more numerous customers.....in his opinion it was a simple business decsion.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 01:46 PM

Quote:

Practicality is a matter of environment. Why would people expect to see street lethal self defense in a TKD tournament?




I totally understand where you are going with this. These guys are doing this for sport and therefore are using techniques for the sport; this should never be confused with real life altercations. This is the beauty of TKD and there is nothing easy about many of these fancy techniques and takes lots of practice; I give anybody their dues if they have these abilities ... I don't even like TKD sparring for myself ... though respect it.

However with that said, many techniques CAN be used in real life altercations even fancy ones. I personally wouldn't as there are too many things that could go wrong so would stick with the basics but they could theoretically work. I would never turn my back on an opponent but I do know of an instance where an individual was confronted by a rather large fellow in a parking lot who came at him and with the timing and distance down delivered a thundering back kick dropping the unexpecting guy; giving him apply opportunity to leave the situation ... and this was seen by others so not made up. Possibly a time and place for anything and if somebody is not expecting it then chances increase; but still I'd say most times not.
Posted by: flynch

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 01:54 PM

It is a difficult kick to do correctly. The point is if you are doing these things for sport then you do things because they are hard and try to continue to improve to harder things. The more physcially/technically advanced your techniques the better you are and this is the mark of your success. Nothing wrong with that

I think its all cool.

I just come at it from a different perspective. I would rather spend my time doing a hundered front snap kicks or side kicks or punches trying to make them faster, more powerful and accurate than spending time on these "fancy kicks" which are definately cool for demos. And I have done my fair share of focusing on these fancy techniques over the last 20 years for sure. While spending the time on these techniques helped me pass my testings I don't feel the time was used in the most efficient manner.

Now my way is just repetion of simple straight forward techniques. I realize I will never perfect the simple techniques like a side kick but my goal is to continue to improve its delivery so that it approaches perfection.

I wish to have total control over it. Its timing, its power, it accuracy etc. and then be able to teach this to another.

Not better not worse just a different path I guess you would say.
Posted by: mangoman

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 02:20 PM

Quote:

My guess is that the guy teaching your daughter does NOT tell prospective students that what they do in this school is designed/taught for the MAIN "goal of winning in competitive enviroments."

Maybe he does--and if so the coach should be commended for his/her honesty.

My guess its a specific class in additon to normal training....I'm just making a point.




CTX,

Just to clear up any potential confusion, the school my daughter attends is pure sport and that is very clear to everyone. There is are no forms, no bowing, no yes sir / no sir, no meditating, no breaking, etc.

Students show up, they put on their gear and they fight Olympic style TKD for a couple hours and they go home to practice more.

It is true that when she originally started TKD, it was along the lines of TKD The Martial Art. After 8 years of that though she fell in love with competition aspect so we left that dojang and found our way to our current home where she and many others are now pursuing their Olympic dreams.
Posted by: cxt

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/16/08 03:28 PM

Mango

Good to know.

As long as everyone involved understands the situation from the get-go...its all good.

Good luck to your child....wish everyone could find a place to train that make them as happy.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/23/08 06:42 AM

Shonuff,

I am glad that you appreciate that point sparring is a very challenging contest of control and mental trickery. Honestly it's easier (on the giving end at least) to just pour out the block breaking power kicks...
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/23/08 06:46 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Practicality is a matter of environment. Why would people expect to see street lethal self defense in a TKD tournament?




Well I wouldn't expect to see anything lethal in any tournament hopefully.

However it seems to me training like this is pretty much only practical for TKD tournaments, I can't see any other area where this kind of specialized skill is useful.

We can all agree there are easier ways to go about it if your goal is to strike someone's head or face and knock them down.


I respect the athleticism and skill here, I just 1don't see it as having a whole lot of value in terms of use outside of the tournaments it's used for.

If you think this sort of thing has much applicability outside of tournments i'd have to simply respectfully disagree.




It is a showcase of training at timing, deception and precision. Now assume for a moment that they also train in pressure points. Apply the deception to cause an attacker to misplace a block with the precision to strike a vital spot with the speed and shock of that kick.

It's only a piece of the whole but it's a good piece.
Posted by: JAMJTX

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/23/08 01:35 PM

It looks more like 2 people hopping and spinning and accidentally collided.
People want to talk about what a great "knockout it was". But don't want to look at the silly nonsense leading up to the collision.
Neither one of these guys understand anything about distancing and timing or even why they need to keep thier hands up.
This is a horrible example of martial arts.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/23/08 05:24 PM

This is martial art sport; don't get the two mistaken as the same. While I don't like that they have their hands down it is typical in this sport. Rest assured that if the rules allowed for punches to the face then people would have their hands up; I have no question about it. It is similar to boxing, they are not defending the take down or kicks to the legs ... because those aren't allowed.

And while I'm not a big fan of TKD sparring, I can respect what people have to do to train for this and I give them the necessary credit.
Posted by: Shonuff

Re: Nice knockout, courtesy of the ATA. - 06/23/08 06:44 PM

If that is your view then either I can see something you can't (perhaps because you don't want to) or I'm imagining something.

The fight opens with the fighter in black armour making a feinting slide towards the fighter in white armour (who has just side-stepped away from the same technique). It is not done well, particularly as it was done twice in a row and as a result white plants a side kick on the torso of the advancing opponent.

Fight is restarted and black makes the same sliding feint to open. White responds with the first 540d kick of the match.

If you look at the spin (as opposed to being blinded by it) you'll see that the opening turn is a half hearted round kick, i.e. enough of a leg lift in the right direction to encourage a reaction. The second part of the spin resembles the begining of a back kick, so another feint, but crucially one that could become a kick if the opponent chooses to enter.

Most TKD fighters would look to enter and attack at this point, and Black actually does move in, but he doesn't commit, just sliding in with the chambered lead leg so the kick just brushes him. White performs the kick in such a way as to take himself further away afterwards, keeping himself safe.

Black's response is to show that he is just as skilled as his opponent and perform a 540d kick with no hope of hitting anything. Likely he is one of those who learned the technique and thought it was pretty with no application ability.
White responds by throwing a side kick at him as he comes out of the spin. He has seen an opening from a poorly chosen and poorly timed kick by his opponent and launched an attack.
His attack wasn't deep enough and Black escapes then counters, holding his leg up and snapping out 3 kicks.
White moves well clear forcing black to put his leg down and advance.
White throws a 540d spin kick. Having seen how black responds he adjusts this kick and moves forward with it. Black responds as he did before advancing on the second part of the turn where a back kick would normally be finishing. As a result he is caught by the hook.

I'm not imaging anything. One skillful fighter beat a less skillful fighter using a very advanced and high risk technique because he understood it and he had learned how to read his opponent. He certainly did understand distancing and timing althoug his opponent perhaps not as much.

As for holding hands high, my friend above said it best, why would a boxer gaurd for the take down or thai low kick???
I've seen a light snapping high round kick fracture a mans forearm in karate dojo sparring. All a high gaurd would've done is get the fighter in black kicked in the chest.

If my analysis of the video is incorrect I'd be happy for you to post your own, alternatively you could just learn more and talk less as you only display your ignorance when you make rash judgements.

I'm cool with opinions, but Karate masters advised that we keep a "beginners mind" (open and accepting) for a reason.