DoBoks, Patches, and Federations

Posted by: TKD_X

DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/01/08 08:26 PM

Recently i saw a dialogue that dealt with the use of a federation patch without belonging to that federation. one person claimed that it is misleading. the other claimed that as the curriculum is the same, the use of the patch is not misleading. those people will remain nameless unless they choose to continue the conversation here! i personally must agree with the second poster.

my federation is based on ITF forms. before the formation of our federation, our grandmaster belonged to the ATA (while it still practiced ITF forms). our grandmaster received his ninth degree black belt at the kukkiwon. now many years after he started a federtin of his own, we practice the ITF forms without the sine wave. we consider ourselves ITF.

i have a jacket style dobok with the ties (like the karate gi). that is the federation official uniform. i suspect this is an ATA influence(for more details go here http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/s...#Post15990743). but i also wear an adidas WTF-style pullover that unfortunately came with the WTF logo at the bottom of the v-neck. we don't wear any ITF patches.

i think the sort of argument that occurred in the other thread is a perfect example of the politics that drove our grandmaster to make his own federation. because we are essentially ITF, is it wrong to call ourselves ITF? if we do olympic style sparring every other friday, could we cal ourselves WTF? i think it is all a ridiculous bunch of semantics. it is all tae kwon do. isn't it? feel free to post however best fits your mood. flame away
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/01/08 11:46 PM

You are confusing Federations with styles. ITF,WTF and ATA are all organizations and organizations are political. They have bylaws and constitutions. The styles are the art Chang Hon(ITF), Kukki(WTF) and Songham(ATA).

Now just because you practice the Chang Hon Pattern, does not mean you are practicing the Chang Hon style, sine wave is probably the thing that separates this style the most, they also are very precise in their foot and hand placements.

We too practice mostly the Chang Hon patterns, but we are not Chang Hon practioners, we do a subtler version of sine wave but not as it would be recognized by the ITF.

Independents commonly refer to the umbrella name of TKD, but die hard practioners from their respective orgs may not.

VDJ
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 12:13 AM

i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 12:33 AM

did you see the conversation i was talking about? it's the kind that broadens the gap between tae kwon do styles. just petty arguments.
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 06:44 AM

Quote:

i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.



No I did not see the thread you are refering to. But, are you sure you follow an ITF syllabus? You have already said you do not practice the sine wave so you have already admitted that you are not a real Chang Hon practioner. I agree that arguing over something as petty as a patch is silly, BUT you cannot claim to be something if you aren't actually practicing it the way that org has set it up to be taught. BTW, the ITF & ATA are far ahead of the WTF in actually having a syllabus, this I have seen up close and personal.

VDJ
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 06:47 AM

And for the most part, most places are welcoming of other practioners and are friendly, you always have a few "our way is better than your way" types, but I don't see it very often.

VDJ
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 07:25 AM

Quote:

i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.



I suppose an analogy would be wearing a country's flag on your regular clothes (or military uniform!) if you were neither a citizen nor a resident.

Some countries and people would see it as a show of respect for their country and culture, others would claim that you do not deserve to wear it.

There is no universally accepted answer. When I trained as a guest at a WTF school (sparring only) I bought their dobok and didn't wear anything but my belt and pads from my other style. I don't disagree with your right to do it, but for me the patches are an allegience to an organization and, as you say, you are not in that organization.

Within ATA we also have "school patches" optionally. One specific patch can only be used by schools whose instructors trained directly under the founder. Other schools are allowed to make their own patches using elements of it but cannot use the patch in its entirety.

Your GM should commission the design of a patch that reflects the ITF heritage without suggesting allegiance to the ITF political organization.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 07:52 AM

This is an interesting but confusing topic. I think it helps to define terms. Mant simply look at TKD as an umbrella term for Korean striking Arts. Many feel the name was just accepted to be distinguished from Karate & the hated Japanese. Others look at TKD as a specific Art developed by a military general & his officers & troops. While still others look at it as a martial sport, one that has even gained Olympic status.
Now the ITF & WTF are both martial art organizations. However, the WTF, besides its sports fighting rules, has no standardization of training. The ITF on the other hand, has specific sports rules & very highly standards with respect to syllabus. The KKW is the south Korean headquarters that overseas continued development & training of their version of TKD.
Now many simply say they are ITF, because they do the ChonJi or Chang Hon patterns. While I would not argue against that, as one is free to think what they wish, I feel that to say you are ITF, you MUST be a registered school or member, wear their official DoBok, followthe syllabus, not just the Tuls. compete in ITF tournaments with up to date rules, issue ITF BB certs etc etc.

Some say ITF is as style. Yes & no. It is an org, that has a set syllabus. The style could more correctly be called Chang Hon, the pen name of the founder.

So some practice a sport called TKD. Some practice Korean Karate & call it TKD. While some practice Chang Hon style & call it TKD.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 07:55 AM

Quote:

i think the sort of argument that occurred in the other thread is a perfect example of the politics that drove our grandmaster to make his own federation. because we are essentially ITF, is it wrong to call ourselves ITF? if we do olympic style sparring every other friday, could we cal ourselves WTF? i think it is all a ridiculous bunch of semantics. it is all tae kwon do. isn't it? feel free to post however best fits your mood. flame away



As stated above, you are free to call yourself & training whatever you wish. I would categorize it as, you train in a form of Korean MA (or karate) with parts of various KMA added in. Which is fine by me. Good luck!
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 07:59 AM

Quote:

But, are you sure you follow an ITF syllabus? You have already said you do not practice the sine wave so you have already admitted that you are not a real Chang Hon practioner.
BUT you cannot claim to be something if you aren't actually practicing it the way that org has set it up to be taught. VDJ



Yes I what say that they do some things the way the founder tuaght it at some point in the past. Nothing wrong with that, but I would not call it ITF, nor would I say they were Chang Hon practitioners either.
Posted by: Andymcc

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 09:35 AM

Quote:

i think i understand you. the point i wanted to make is that it is silly to worry about emblems and logos and patches. if you follow the ITF syllabus, i would say to call yourself ITF. i agree with the umbrella name thing. i don't say i'm PATF or anything, just tae kwon do. looking back this could be construed as a "why can't we be friends?" post.



This makes no sense, you are contradicting yourself.
Why do you feel the need to "call yourself ITF"?
You say getting hung up on patches and emblems is silly, but then you are getting hung up on what to call yourself. What difference is there?

Your school is not ITF unless you are registered with them. That doesn't mean you don't train in a style that is based on their curriculum, but why bother calling youself ITF if you are not?
Call it Chang Hon style, unless you truly belong to an organization.
My school is the same way, by the way. Chang Hon style, but I don't belong to the ITF. I have no problem with that, because I feel the ITF is regulations and politics which I don't agree with certain things. We can practice Chang Hon style without calling ourselves. ITF.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 12:04 PM

i don't feel the need to call myself ITF. i don't call myself ITF. we aren't registered with the ITF. we don't wear an ITF patch. but will we get flamed if we say we do the "ITF" forms? the point i wanted to make was that we would all be a lot happier if we didn't worr so much about party affilitations and which org is which. that is what pulls TKD as a whole farther apart.
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 05:38 PM

Quote:

i don't feel the need to call myself ITF. i don't call myself ITF. we aren't registered with the ITF. we don't wear an ITF patch. but will we get flamed if we say we do the "ITF" forms? the point i wanted to make was that we would all be a lot happier if we didn't worr so much about party affilitations and which org is which. that is what pulls TKD as a whole farther apart.



TKD-X,

That really isn't what you said, you said you called yourself ITF. Many schools, especially here in the states practice the ITF/Chang Hon patterns and belong to the WTF. My school is a perfect example, we belong to the AAU a sister org to TKD-USA, THE governing body to the WTF in the states. We do mostly ITF patterns (some WTF at BB levels) and practice a small version of SW. Clubs, orgs and students aren't as far apart as you think, there are some and their arguements are brought to the forefront to make it seem like the artists are divided (like this thread). I have been welcomed by many, several from this board (Master Weiss,V-Dan,Razorfoot and MattJ)and I don't think that there is one person on this board and the TKD forum inparticular that wouldn't welcome us into their school just because we didn't belong to their org or wore their patch ! And I think deep down you really know this as wwell!

VDJ
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 06:30 PM

i wasn't implying that a WTF school wouldn't welcome an ITF student, or at least i wasn't trying to imply that. i think you school sounds really cool. i would really love the oppurtunity to learn the WTF(or should i say kukki) forms in addition to the ITF(or should i say chang hon) forms. i think it's just the politics of it all that confuses me. you can't say that "ITF" is interchangeable with "chang hon" and vice versa. you can teach chang hon without being ITF, but you can't be ITF unless you are chang hon. it makes my brain hurt.
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 11:07 PM

Its really quite simple. ITF sets the curriculum for ITF schools and they ONLY practice Chang Hon style. WTF is a bit more liberal as far as curriculum is concerned and has more of the umbrella independents, where some of them MAY practice the chang hon style, but are more likely to teach kukki style.

VDJ
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/02/08 11:57 PM

ok. so you could practice chang hon and still belong to the WTF?
Posted by: Seiken

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/03/08 02:14 AM

Quote:

Its really quite simple. ITF sets the curriculum for ITF schools and they ONLY practice Chang Hon style. WTF is a bit more liberal as far as curriculum is concerned and has more of the umbrella independents, where some of them MAY practice the chang hon style, but are more likely to teach kukki style.

VDJ



This is true. In the past before Taegeuk, there was Palgwe which was accepted with the Yudanja patterns for black belts. Then Taegeuk replaced Palgwe, and like the Kwan situations, some kept them some didnt, some did both. Now, I know WTF accepts both sets. As far as WTF curriculum goes, I know the Taegeuks must be performed continuously for 1st dan, does that qualify as a syllabus? What is the ITF syllabus? When I studied (briefly), it was almost no different than Kukki TKD training, with exceptions of pattern differences. But I never tested with an official syllabus, it was more or less, do what we do in class and a buttload of forms.

One of the schools I trained at actually taught an extremely large form set, some of the founding members had trained in 3 Kwans, including one that taught chinese crane and long fist forms. Even some members of this style have broken off, mainly isolating certain sets, and forming private TKD groups. Some keep affiliation with WTF for tournament reasons, and for that nice little card you get at 1st dan.

Basically in the WTF, you might find one group of 20 to 200 students that practice forms that come from shotokan, chinese kempo, chang hon, palgwe, taegeuk, yudanja, etc.. And you might find some that practice pure sparring techniques.

The more and more people who practice an art, the more differences and the more names people will call it.

As to the OP, doboks? Who cares? My group uses sweats, or tshirt and pants if anything. Patches? There cool looking, but IMO, unless you earned the patch through training at a specific school that also earns that patch through affiliation, it is slightly immoral I guess. Sort of like buying a black belt without training. Federations, are just that. It is the problem my group is having, essentially TKD, we are not belonging to any group anymore but ourselves, but still need to establish an image separate from the main styles. Newcomers expect world recognition, we cant give that. Some are wanting to adopt an old school Kwan approach. IE: Moo Duk Kwan, or in k1 english terms, Jims Karate. lol

Personally I think styles should be largely independent, large groups trying to control something that requires individualistic attention is bad. Some ways it is good, and it is extremely good for people whos individuality matches that group. But majority wise, detrimental to both martial and artistic growth.

If gangs ruled the world.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/03/08 08:02 PM

i agree with you Seiken. that's what i was trying to say. but we can't just say "let's be friends" and create one big happy TKD org. i wouldn't call your style moo duk kwan unless it actually stems from moo duk kwan. that is still a prevalent "style" that is out there. i think it might actually have a link to tang soo do. you could look up how to say jim's karate in korean and then stick the word kwan at the end of it. i would love to have the oppurtunity to learn chang hon, taegeuk, palgwe, and other forms all under one roof.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/06/08 05:31 AM

Quote:

Its really quite simple. ITF sets the curriculum for ITF schools and they ONLY practice Chang Hon style. WTF is a bit more liberal as far as curriculum is concerned and has more of the umbrella independents, where some of them MAY practice the chang hon style, but are more likely to teach kukki style. VDJ



The WTF has no curiculum or required training sylabus, none whatsover. They do have a set rules for tournaments, as they oversee only the Olympic type sparring sport. The Kukiwon does have a textbook & a training regiment that they develop after research, teach & promote worldwide.
One can not be a member of the WTF. A person can be a student at a school that is registered with a member nation body of the WTF. The nly ones that can be members of the WTF, are the Countries registered with them. I believe there are some 185/6 Nations at present, far more than any of the ITF orgs.
Any school that registers with their NGB, is pretty much free to do what they want. They must however compete & win the national tournaments to be selected for certain WTF Sanctioned events, such as the WCs & the Olympcs. I also believe that the IOC voided a regulation that players in rder to compete in the Olympics has to posess a Kuiwon BB cert.
Since I am not one who follows the WTF, maybe someone can inform me if I have posted anything incorrect.
Thanks
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/06/08 05:46 AM

Quote:

What is the ITF syllabus? When I studied (briefly), it was almost no different than Kukki TKD training, with exceptions of pattern differences. But I never tested with an official syllabus, it was more or less, do what we do in class and a buttload of forms.



The ITF syllabus is basically TKD as laid out by the founder in his 15 volume Encylopedia of TKD. This syllabus has been added to via newsletters from the organization & the information put forth in their interntional instructor courses, seminars & umpire classes that take place all around the world. The further one gets from this very clearly laid out syllabus, with ample opportunites to have things taught, fully explained, dissementated, recorded, etc, the less thay are doing Chang Hon or ITF TKD. Some simply do the ChonJi patterns, calling them forms, with Karate like movement, claiming they are Chang Hon or ITF style. Although they are free to call themselves whatever they wish, they merely demonstrate their lack of knowledge of a style they claim to be.

Ambassador Choi, in his fervor to be distinguished from the hated Japanese & their Karate, developed & evolved his Art,over the course of 50+ years, with the help of many, to stand apart as a unique MA. The WTF, 1st by the Jidokwan, did the same, for the same reason.
Many people left the guidance of their respective groups long ago. Depending on when they left & how much of the evolution they took part in, determines for the most part how Karate like they are or how up to date they are by current ITF, WTF/Kukkiwon standards. JMHO
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/06/08 07:48 AM

"I also believe that the IOC voided a regulation that players in rder to compete in the Olympics has to posess a Kuiwon BB cert."

I have not heard this, but it may well be. I will have to check it out.

VDJ
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/06/08 08:53 PM

i'm not sure i understand that concept. is that saying you could be an ITF BB or is it saying you don't have to be a BB. i'm guessing strongly that it's the first one, but just to cover all the bases...
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/06/08 09:56 PM

Quote:

i'm not sure i understand that concept. is that saying you could be an ITF BB or is it saying you don't have to be a BB. i'm guessing strongly that it's the first one, but just to cover all the bases...



From what I remember reading, what one must do is win thier respective Nations trial process to make the Olympics. You no longer have to be a Kukkiwon certified BB. So technically a Karate color belt student or even a novice, if they win a spot, it doesn't matter what the background is.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/07/08 03:45 PM

so as long as they wear the official uniforms, anyone who wins the right matches could get in? even under BB or from a different art? that doesn't sound kukkiwonish.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/07/08 05:26 PM

Yes I believe so. But remember this was not a Kukkiwon decision, but an IOC one, as the WTF requirements of a Kukkwon BB cert, did not allow equal access to all potential players. (Something to that effect)
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/07/08 08:01 PM

cool decision. but they should have some kind of regulation. like i wouldn't see the point of a karate guy trying to do olympic TKD. i think that there should be a black belt cert rule, just not necesarily kukkiwon. like you could have a 5th gup that did karate before and then got taught by the right guys. but how would they look coming in to the olympic arena with a purple belt (just picking an intermediate color)? if they want other arts to be involved, they should add a new sport. JMHO
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 06:01 AM

Yes I see your point. However, this requirement by the IOC insures equal access without organizational road blocks, that at times can be expensive (think 3rd world nations) & political ( my org is better than yours). I think from the IOC standpoint, it is kicking & puncing. They are simply looking to get the best players from each Country onto the world stage. Of course, in the case of the MAs, one would assume that the level of skill required to earn a spot would be one that has at least resulted in earning a BB. But keep in mind, for other sports, there are no specific training methods, regiment, timelines etc & written paper certification of that process, is there???????

IMHO just think IOC & their Charter, not MAs or TKD & their protocols.
Posted by: VDJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 12:04 PM

The key here is that you are talking MARTIAL SPORT here and ITFUnity hits right on the head for other sports and how they are trained. The BB issue is simple enough, remove the belt from the ring, doesn't matter what art you come from, all you are doing is following a rule set, you don't need to be trained in any other aspect of the art for its sporting aspect so why would you need its BB? As far as I'm concerned, I'd rather they just drop it from the games any way, its ruined the ART enough as it is.

VDJ
Posted by: oldcoach

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 03:17 PM

As long as your NGB is a member of your country's National Olympic Council (NOC), and you're a member of your NGB, then the WTF would have to accept your participation because the Olympics is an IOC event and NOT a WTF event.

Once your NGB has identified you as a "player" to your NOC (and provided you've qualified in the "regionals"), it is your NOC that liases with the IOC organizing committee regarding your entry. It is the IOC organizing committee that is the ORGANIZER of the competition, NOT the WTF, whose role is limited to what essentially amounts to a "technical co-ordinating" role.

Remember it is an IOC event , with member NOCs sending delegates (read "athletes") to participate. It is NOT a WTF event where member NGBs send Taekwondo participants to take part in a WTF event.

In fact, one could say that the Taekwondo event in the Olympics is NOT a WTF-sanctioned event because the WTF, in this case, is not playing the "sanctioning" role but simply a coordinating role.

It's like the IOC saying to them "OK, you guys want to include Taekwondo in the Olypmics. And you got so and so many members in so and so many countries? OK, we'll include Taekwondo in the roster, but YOU GUYS take care of the details, kapisch? Don't bother us with the nitty-gritty of actually organizing the darn thing. And, oh, one more thing. You've got to let everybody take part, or at least everybody who has been sent by their NOC and who has qualified. We don't really care whether he has a -- whatchacallit? oh yeah, Kookyone cert or wonton soup -- If his NOC sends him, we're goona let him play, kapisch?"

But for all intents and purposes, almost any participant that would be selected to represent their country in the Olympics would most probably have a Kukkiwon cert because it's a very common practice to apply for Kukkiwon cert when one tests for BB
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 04:21 PM

has anyone heard of someone without a kukkiwon cert trying to get in?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 04:21 PM

Quote:

The WTF has no curiculum or required training sylabus, none whatsover. They do have a set rules for tournaments, as they oversee only the Olympic type sparring sport. The Kukiwon does have a textbook & a training regiment that they develop after research, teach & promote worldwide.
One can not be a member of the WTF. A person can be a student at a school that is registered with a member nation body of the WTF. The nly ones that can be members of the WTF, are the Countries registered with them. I believe there are some 185/6 Nations at present, far more than any of the ITF orgs.
Any school that registers with their NGB, is pretty much free to do what they want. They must however compete & win the national tournaments to be selected for certain WTF Sanctioned events, such as the WCs & the Olympcs. I also believe that the IOC voided a regulation that players in rder to compete in the Olympics has to posess a Kuiwon BB cert.
Since I am not one who follows the WTF, maybe someone can inform me if I have posted anything incorrect.
Thanks



I will admit I am pretty lax when it comes to such things as this however I don't agree with this.

Our school falls under the WTF TKD Organization that falls under the WTF TKD Association of Canada that falls under the WTF TKD Alberta Association, in fact my own Instructor and his wife (also an Instructor), plus others I know have served on the Alberta board. Changes that take place at the top level filter down and are discussed and implemented at our level. In the middle of last year double knife hand blocks were changed how done including within our Taegeuk pattern #4. Many years ago how a round house kick was done with chambering was changed.

Now again I don't understand the flow or the politicalness of all of this ... and don't really care ... but there does seem to be more to it then you lead to believe. Plus all testing done does have a curriculum or I should say requirements as that is a better word to use. Curriculums are obviously set up by each school and differ whereas for yourself and ITF related schools; follow a similar curriculum. I am thankful in my case that we do something different then other WTF affiliated schools otherwise I would not learn all that I have.

I will have a better understanding of the flow shortly once my certificate comes in as it has been 6 months. Again I don't fully understand it but politics has no business in my training just functionality.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 06:46 PM

Quote:

has anyone heard of someone without a kukkiwon cert trying to get in?



I just read about this within the past several months. I am not sure if it was a new ruling or one that has been around. I was always under the mistaken impression that one needed a Kukkiwon BB cert. Apparently that is no longer the case. When it changed I can not say. Maybe someone can add that info or research it.
Obviously if it is a new ruling, there probably has not yet been anyone who didn't have one.
I would be interested in being infromed & educated on this matter.
Thanks
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 06:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

The WTF has no curiculum or required training sylabus, none whatsover. They do have a set rules for tournaments, as they oversee only the Olympic type sparring sport. The Kukiwon does have a textbook & a training regiment that they develop after research, teach & promote worldwide.
One can not be a member of the WTF. A person can be a student at a school that is registered with a member nation body of the WTF. The only ones that can be members of the WTF, are the Countries registered with them. I believe there are some 185/6 Nations at present, far more than any of the ITF orgs.
Any school that registers with their NGB, is pretty much free to do what they want. They must however compete & win the national tournaments to be selected for certain WTF Sanctioned events, such as the WCs & the Olympcs. I also believe that the IOC voided a regulation that players in order to compete in the Olympics have to posess a Kuiwon BB cert.
Since I am not one who follows the WTF, maybe someone can inform me if I have posted anything incorrect. Thanks


I will admit I am pretty lax when it comes to such things as this however I don't agree with this.
Our school falls under the WTF TKD Organization that falls under the WTF TKD Association of Canada that falls under the WTF TKD Alberta Association, in fact my own Instructor and his wife (also an Instructor), plus others I know have served on the Alberta board. Changes that take place at the top level filter down and are discussed and implemented at our level. In the middle of last year double knife hand blocks were changed how done including within our Taegeuk pattern #4. Many years ago how a round house kick was done with chambering was changed.
Now again I don't understand the flow or the politicalness of all of this ... and don't really care ... but there does seem to be more to it then you lead to believe. Plus all testing done does have a curriculum or I should say requirements as that is a better word to use. Curriculums are obviously set up by each school and differ whereas for yourself and ITF related schools; follow a similar curriculum. I am thankful in my case that we do something different then other WTF affiliated schools otherwise I would not learn all that I have.
I will have a better understanding of the flow shortly once my certificate comes in as it has been 6 months. Again I don't fully understand it but politics has no business in my training just functionality.



Sir I am not exactly understanding what you are disagreeing with.
As far as what I wrote, I do not think that there is anything that is not accurate. However, since I do not do WTF tournaments, nor practice Kukki TKD, nor seek guidance from the Kukkiwon, I may & do wish to be corrected. I love to become more informed.
Please try to highlight the points of contention & I will try my best to clarify.
Thanks
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/08/08 07:13 PM

Quote:

Now again I don't understand the flow or the politicalness of all of this ... and don't really care ... but there does seem to be more to it then you lead to believe.
I will have a better understanding of the flow shortly once my certificate comes in as it has been 6 months. Again I don't fully understand it but politics has no business in my training just functionality.



Yes but this here is not politics. Not don't get me wrong, we may be just talking semantics here & not much more.
That being said, this is the organizational seperation of responsibilities, not politics.
In south Korea there are 2 main international groups responsible for TKD.
The WTF is only a sports governing body, responsible for overseeing Olympic TKD tournament rules. The only set training or curriculmn they have are the referee, judges & official's training programs.

The Kukkiwon is the national training centre for TKD in south Korea. It is also the international clearing house or center for training. They set standards, devise techniques, certify BBs, work close with colleges & university TKD degree granting academic institutions, hold testing, instructor courses etc. They also develop & teach sparring techniques that can be & would be utilized in WTF tournaments. They do have a great textbook, which I got recently & suggest all Kukki TKD students purchase. The Kukkiwon is a world renowned facility.
I think when you do receive your WTF BB cert, you will see that it is not a WTF cert, but a Kukkiwon one. many people, myself included, till recently, confused the roles, duties & responsibilities. In fact, if I am not mistaken the differences were recently (after the scandals involving Dr. Kim, resulting in his arrest, conviction & prison sentence) made clearer.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/09/08 09:33 AM

I will keep you informed.
Posted by: msb1964

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/09/08 11:32 AM

I think the misconception on who controls the curriculum between WTF and KKW is because everyone wears the WTF patch and are considered WTF practicioners. For years I thought that the WTF controlled everything and the KKW was just the training gym.
Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 10:12 AM

Quote:

I also believe that the IOC voided a regulation that players in rder to compete in the Olympics has to posess a Kuiwon BB cert.



ITF Unity,
This information certainly has my interest peaked. I'm currently starting up a club on a military base and have been told that if I want to become a member of the military orgainzation, both my students and I will have to do a "conversion" and recieve a Kukkiwon certificate to be eligible for competition.

While that seems like a simple yes/no decision, the organization itself has not problems with our training traditional Chang Hon style or our affiliation to the ITF on a national level. Our dual affiliation with the military organization would, however, include grant money for equipment, seminars etc.

I could, if this is the case, argue that if entry into Olympic competition doesn't require Kukkiwon association, then inclusion on the national military team shouldn't either.

For clarification, I am a "member" of the ITF as my certificates were issued by them and my club affiliation (where my instructor teaches) is ITF, but the club I am starting has not been taken into the "fold" as of yet.

Sorry for the long post and thank you in advance for any info you might be able to give me on sources for verify/discount this.
Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 10:15 AM

Oh and to get back on topic...

Since the ITF has not picked us up yet, but my affiliation goes back to the regional and national ITF governing body, we wear the jacket-style dobok with the "towering tree." The only patch that we will be wearing is a club patch for now, the national military org patch if the above works in my favour and eventually the ITF patch if/when they decide to recognize us.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 10:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I also believe that the IOC voided a regulation that players in rder to compete in the Olympics has to posess a Kuiwon BB cert.


ITF Unity,
This information certainly has my interest peaked. I'm currently starting up a club on a military base and have been told that if I want to become a member of the military orgainzation, both my students and I will have to do a "conversion" and recieve a Kukkiwon certificate to be eligible for competition.
While that seems like a simple yes/no decision, the organization itself has not problems with our training traditional Chang Hon style or our affiliation to the ITF on a national level. Our dual affiliation with the military organization would, however, include grant money for equipment, seminars etc.
I could, if this is the case, argue that if entry into Olympic competition doesn't require Kukkiwon association, then inclusion on the national military team shouldn't either.
For clarification, I am a "member" of the ITF as my certificates were issued by them and my club affiliation (where my instructor teaches) is ITF, but the club I am starting has not been taken into the "fold" as of yet.
Sorry for the long post and thank you in advance for any info you might be able to give me on sources for verify/discount this.



Ok, it sounds like to issues here. First I would respectfully suggest going right to the source, the IOC. You may be able to research 1st their website for information. If not, the next & best way to do it, is write directly to them.
You see we are talking about making an Olympic team. A process that I think they have said can not bar prospective players based on an affliation & certification process. Remember I can think of no other Olympic sport that requires a certificate saying you have achieved a certain level in some training method. None. So it makes sense they are fonally applting it to TKD.

As far as access to other competitons, I think that a group can pretty much set their own critera. You may be able to point to the IOC rule, but my gut tells me it will have little weight on local, regional or national events, except Olympic trials & selection process.
For your specific situation, it might be nice to get a KKW BB cert. I would imagine only a 1st Dan one would be needed to meet their requirement, especially if you can get funds to pay for it. Good luck.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 10:56 AM

Quote:

......."towering tree."....... The only patch that we will be wearing is a club patch for now, the national military org patch if the above works in my favour and eventually the ITF patch if/when they decide to recognize us.



I think this is called the evergreen tree.
What ITF are you seeking to affilaite with?
Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 12:58 PM

Quote:

As far as access to other competitons, I think that a group can pretty much set their own critera. You may be able to point to the IOC rule, but my gut tells me it will have little weight on local, regional or national events, except Olympic trials & selection process.
For your specific situation, it might be nice to get a KKW BB cert. I would imagine only a 1st Dan one would be needed to meet their requirement, especially if you can get funds to pay for it. Good luck.



If it is my only choice, I will get the certification so that we are recognized and look to some sort of "dual" program for the students, but in regards to your first point, I have a history of successfully kicking open bureaucratic doors once they have been opened a crack

You are correct though, I should stap being lazy and go to the IOC :lol:

As for the confusion between "evergreen" and "towering" I have seen the reference to the evergreen tree on a few websites, but was taught that it was the same plant that is referred to in the significance of the belt colours.

Quote:

Blue - Signifies the Heaven towards which the plant matures into a towering tree as training in Taekwon-Do progresses.



So perhaps I'm being willfully incorrect here, but the tree on the back of the dobok looks more like a deciduous to me

I will look into this a little bit deeper as I would rather be correct when instructing rather than passing on old faults.
Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 01:10 PM

Missed one point, CTFI (lineage to ITF (V), Master Tran).

I am hoping that the 3 ITF orgs mess is sorted out soon as I am a military member and have to choose ITF clubs/associations by geography rather than affiliation. As it is, I have instructors past and present who belong to two of the three orgs, which makes me uncomfortable.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/15/08 11:31 PM

Quote:

As for the confusion between "evergreen" and "towering" I have seen the reference to the evergreen tree on a few websites, but was taught that it was the same plant that is referred to in the significance of the belt colours.
Quote:

Blue - Signifies the Heaven towards which the plant matures into a towering tree as training in Taekwon-Do progresses.


So perhaps I'm being willfully incorrect here, but the tree on the back of the dobok looks more like a deciduous to me
I will look into this a little bit deeper as I would rather be correct when instructing rather than passing on old faults.



No problem, just remember that the colors of the belts were decided in the late 60s & settled in the 1972 text. The DoBok design was created in 1980 by GM CK Choi of Vancover BC, Canada. I think it is even written somewhere that it is the evergreen tree. I'll have to remember to look it up.
Posted by: msb1964

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/16/08 07:48 AM

Quote:

Missed one point, CTFI (lineage to ITF (V), Master Tran).

I am hoping that the 3 ITF orgs mess is sorted out soon as I am a military member and have to choose ITF clubs/associations by geography rather than affiliation. As it is, I have instructors past and present who belong to two of the three orgs, which makes me uncomfortable.



I don't think any of the ITF schools would have a problem with you training with them no matter what federation you belong to. Of course, I would say join Master Choi but that's just me. Being in the military gives you a chance to train with many different instructors which, i believe, is what Gen. Choi would have liked. It gives you more opportunity to learn different applications of TKD.

Mike
Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/16/08 01:31 PM

Quote:

I think it is even written somewhere that it is the evergreen tree. I'll have to remember to look it up.



Found it: Bylaw 8.1 Dobok

ITF-V webpage
Posted by: trevek

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/17/08 08:14 AM

Quote:

has anyone heard of someone without a kukkiwon cert trying to get in?



Here in Poland there was a bit of a hoo-hah a couple of years ago because one of the leading ITF-affiliated clubs also trains WTF competition sparring as it allows them access to Olympic competition.

One girl cleaned up at qualifiers but there was then a controversy about whether she would be allowed in the Olympic squad. Not sure what happened.

That said, I'm not sure if she had had here ITF grade registered with Kukkiwon.

One point to consider in the greater schemes is that a pure-blood ITF-er might even consider that anyone doing non-ITF aint doing TKD at all.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/17/08 09:35 PM

Quote:

Quote:

has anyone heard of someone without a kukkiwon cert trying to get in?


Here in Poland there was a bit of a hoo-hah a couple of years ago because one of the leading ITF-affiliated clubs also trains WTF competition sparring as it allows them access to Olympic competition.
One girl cleaned up at qualifiers but there was then a controversy about whether she would be allowed in the Olympic squad. Not sure what happened.



As I stated previoulsy, I think the IOC only made this ruling recently, post 2004 Olympics. So I am not sure if it has become an issue yet or been challenged yet.

Now here is some food for thought:
How does Judo do it?
Do you have to be a Judo BB?
Does the Judo cert have to come from only 1 org?
Posted by: trevek

Re: DoBoks, Patches, and Federations - 05/18/08 02:17 AM

No, you don't have to be a BB.
After the invasion of Afghanistan the Afghan Olympic team entered a woman into the Judo. She was a Brown Belt but officials allowed her to wear BB.