New Poomsae

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do you think after 12 years i could learn SW? i don't know. i know there is a lot of theory behind it but i don't like the choppiness. it isn't the kind of thing that flows smoothly.

Yes I do think you can learn it after 12 years.I have successfully had people learn it with more time under their belts, inculding myself. It all depends on the attitude of the student. Would you be open to it? Are you too set in your ways? Have you been influenced by those who do not like it & critique it? Who almosts always seem to not know it or have not been taught it in a comprehensive effective way. If you are open, you may grasp it, then evaluate it & find some purpose in it. When done correctly, there is no choppiness & it should flow rather smoothly. I think it is a matter of perception, that is naturally affected by being used to doing something different, especially for so long.

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i like being a little unique. how popular are non-sinewave schools? but hey, if they combine the forms, i might not have to learn SW. that would be a cool way to learn the WTF forms too. do you think they would replace the palgwe/taegeuk forms or just add the chang hon? i would love the oppurtunity, as i have said before, to learn more than just the chang hon forms. i'm a "why can't we be friends?" kind of guy. a big TKD merger would be wonderful in my opinion.

Yes thats Kool! However I am not sure how they would settle on the forms/patterns, as they may never get to do any merge at all. These decisions are so difficult, as they involve hard choices, pride & bad feelings that have sat for so long. In any event, whatever does happen, with respect to patterns, once decided, they must have a way for everyone to compete on the world stage. As such, there must be some form of standardization in order to select a winner. It can't be like an open tournament with anything goes, as everyone would modify the Tuls to be flashy.
They may decide to take some aspects of SW, as it was a critical aspect of how Chang Hon ITF TKD set itself off from the hated Japanese & their Karate. This is one item that both orgs can agree one. Remember the WTF adopted their tournament sparring rules from the JiDo kwan for much the same reason.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: New Poomsae - 05/08/08 12:15 PM

"as that is wrongly interpeted in south Korea as communist TKD."

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how one style of TKD can be communist ?! Here is where politics screwed the whole thing up from the beginning, POLITICAL BELIEFS swayed people from an art and thats where your division began. The art itself cannot be communist, only its practioner can be (Though I am opposed to the definiton of Juche)!

VDJ

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: New Poomsae - 05/08/08 01:39 PM

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"as that is wrongly interpeted in south Korea as communist TKD."
I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how one style of TKD can be communist ?! Here is where politics screwed the whole thing up from the beginning, POLITICAL BELIEFS swayed people from an art and thats where your division began. The art itself cannot be communist, only its practioner can be (Though I am opposed to the definiton of Juche)! VDJ

I give you the simple version. When Ambassdor Choi was forced to exile himself to Canada in 1972, there was an organized attempt to rid SK of his version of TKD. Over the years, now 36, as the Kukkiwon & WTF grew more popular & powerful, few were any longer exposed to original TKD. So when the people in the south started to have more frequent exchanges with the north, one of the things they noticed was the TKD in the north was different. So many started calling it communist TKD, even though it is not. It was of course developed in the south Korean Army & spread worldwide, long before the north had it introduced there in 1980.

Yes I think there is no other MA that is as political as TKD. All Arts & orgs have internal politics, but none have real world geo-politics playing such a role in it history, development & promotion.

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/08/08 04:28 PM

well we can only hope that someone will get the sense to pull everything together and make a decision that beneifits everyone.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: New Poomsae - 05/08/08 04:52 PM

ITFUnity,

Thank you. Yes I am VERY aware of that history. My point was that it is just not possible for the art to be communist, different, yes (and really not much), but impossible to have a political philosophy, only its practioner can do that. The funny thing is, when did you EVER hear a chinese art refered to as communist?

VDJ

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: New Poomsae - 05/08/08 06:40 PM

Yes Sir I am sure you were aware of it, as you are most informed about many of these matters. I was posting for the generic reader.
You make an outstanding point about the CHINESE Arts.

I think no other MA has the political influence & interference that TKD sadly suffers & at times benefits by.

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/08/08 07:54 PM

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I think no other MA has the political influence & interference that TKD sadly suffers & at times benefits by.

well we can only hope that the benefitting part is on the way

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: New Poomsae - 05/09/08 05:45 AM

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I think no other MA has the political influence & interference that TKD sadly suffers & at times benefits by.

well we can only hope that the benefitting part is on the way

I would say that we have benefited so very much already from politics. The influence has not all been negative. Remember, since 1954, when the President (Rhee) of the Republic of (south) Korea saw a demonstration organized by then major-general Choi, with Col. Nam Tae Hi breaking 13 roof tiles with a single punch, the political influence helped. The President ordered that this be taught to all the soldiers. This was the start of the Oh Do Kwan & original TKD. This directive allowed for many talented soldiers of various fighting arts to come togther to form an effective military fighting system called TaeKwon-Do. Mr. Choi Hong Hi, as an Army general & diplomatic ambassador was able to develop & promote TKD worldwide. His support of Presient Rhee's Liberal Party & others, afforded him many opportunties to form 2 KTAs (1957 & 59), become president of a 3rd (1965), send demonstration teams abroad (1959 & 65), dispatch hundreds of instructors to the military of Vietnam & help countless instructors settle abroad where they taught original TKD. Many of these teachers may have taught some of us on this board, myself included.
Furthermore, the support of Republic of (south) Korea since the early 1970s has resulted in the Kukkiwon, a world renowned training & development center & Olympic status for the worlds most popular MA. The support of the Democratic People's Republic of (north) Korea's govt since the early 1980s has helped the ITF not only to survive, by negating the attempts by south Korea to destroy it, but helped to make it grow to the strong worldwide organization that can boast of a highly standardized & popular worldwide MA.

So you see all the real world geo-political influences have not always been bad. Since the historic summit in 2000, between the leaders of the 2 Koreas, followed by the 2nd one in 2007, that has resulted in numerous exchanges between the isolated north & the thriving south. Many of these exchanges have included TKD, such as the numerous merger meetings & discussions of the ITF-NK & WTF.

So hopefully better days are around the corner. I guess we just have to figure out which corner! LOL

Posted by: JohnL

Re: New Poomsae - 05/09/08 08:34 AM

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(Bikak and Hanryu, im unsure as of now if anymore have been devised. Created in collaboration with Kukkiwon, WTF, and KTA. For standardized TKD in competition,

Bikak for under 40 TKD
Hanryu for over 40 TKD

The poomsae for under 40 is quite difficult and contains many advanced techniques, some good continuous movements that can develop good hand skills. The over 40 poomsae is great for keeping the elders in shape .... medium in length, basic high kicks and advanced hand techniques, some of the best IMO for self defense use.

Hey

I rarely visit the TKD section of the forum but noticed this thread.

Kata determined by the age of the practitioner.

Complete BS!!!!

How dare someone do this.

I practice a mainstream style of Karate, undertake ALL of the Kata, and am not under 40. If someone told me that they had designed a Kata for me because of my age, I'd take them out and slap them around for about a week!!!!

Posted by: Seiken

Re: New Poomsae - 05/09/08 02:46 PM

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(Bikak and Hanryu, im unsure as of now if anymore have been devised. Created in collaboration with Kukkiwon, WTF, and KTA. For standardized TKD in competition,

Bikak for under 40 TKD
Hanryu for over 40 TKD

The poomsae for under 40 is quite difficult and contains many advanced techniques, some good continuous movements that can develop good hand skills. The over 40 poomsae is great for keeping the elders in shape .... medium in length, basic high kicks and advanced hand techniques, some of the best IMO for self defense use.

Hey

I rarely visit the TKD section of the forum but noticed this thread.

Kata determined by the age of the practitioner.

Complete BS!!!!

How dare someone do this.

I practice a mainstream style of Karate, undertake ALL of the Kata, and am not under 40. If someone told me that they had designed a Kata for me because of my age, I'd take them out and slap them around for about a week!!!!

Did you watch the video? Not many young people can even do the techniques in the under 40 poomse, the reason its for under 40 is completely obvious. Its competition poomse and contains many high risk techniques. I dont see too many mainstream karate katas that contain what Bikak does either. Unless your talking XMA.

They are not telling you not to learn both of them. Its a competition setting. Ya know, featherweights dont fight for the heavyweight title for a reason, no punching to the face in sparring for a reason. Rules. Commonality.

I actually like the fact that they take into consideration the millions of people practicing and competing, and the fact that eventually these people will get old, and might still want to compete. But not have the youth and time to do what they once could. Of course there are exceptions, but were talking worldwide practices here... a common ground for competition. An advanced poomse for young people which highlights some of the unique TKD kicking techniques while retaining a nice tradtional flavor, and a moderately difficult poomse for the aging martial artist.

I think they are so daring because, well.. they created the poomse. They have a right to tell us what its for. Doesnt mean we have to follow it.. im learning hanryu myself. But if your entering poomse competition a common form to judge on is what is needed.

Unless you harbor insecurities about your age.

I see no reason in getting upset over age determined poomse. Do you get upset at your shoe size too? I see lots of companies making shoes based on age AND foot size.

IMO This is seen all over though. A TKD guy sees a kempo guy low block, the TKD guys thinks he owns the low block... so the kempo guy is clearly doing it wrong. But the karate guy who really thinks he owns the low block sees them both doing it wrong, because they are blocking instead of locking with the block. All of them are wrong, because they think they own the movement. Poomse is no different, with the exception that it is a creation, so someone really does own it, and the maker is the only one to truly determine the intention. In this case, age.

I understand where your coming from though JohnL, not trying to attack you. Im 100% playing the devils advocate card here, I tend to agree with you. Considering the KukkiTKD is a product as much as a martial art, the user determines the products worth and anyone should be able to buy it, unless its alcohol

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/09/08 10:41 PM

the individual should have a choice. if you are 60 and can do bikak, you're a beast and deserve to.

Posted by: Seiken

Re: New Poomsae - 05/10/08 04:22 PM

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the individual should have a choice. if you are 60 and can do bikak, you're a beast and deserve to.

So a 14 year old in the JR division should be allowed to compete in the adults division because hes a beast at sparring and deserves to? Anyone can learn the forms.

Competition for forms has rules and regulations. If the forms were created by the kukkiwon for competition in age specific divisions then why should someone be allowed to because they can?

I can punch to the face. But I dont in TKD sparring. Its against the rules. See how that works?

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/10/08 04:53 PM

hmmm interesting point of view. this could be due to my lack of knowledge for WTF forms competition. it's very possible that i'm just unfamiliar with the system. i practice forms for the sake of the art not for the sake of competition. if you are over 40 and have the physical ability to do bikak, are you not allowed to practice it? the tournament's i participate in are usually attended by more than just one style. for instance my school would be there as would some local tang soo do schools. the forms aren't the same for everyone. that makes it interesting. it seems silly to me that a 10 person division would all have to do the same form. is that how WTF competition works?

Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: New Poomsae - 05/11/08 09:33 AM

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hmmm interesting point of view. this could be due to my lack of knowledge for WTF forms competition. it's very possible that i'm just unfamiliar with the system. i practice forms for the sake of the art not for the sake of competition. if you are over 40 and have the physical ability to do bikak, are you not allowed to practice it? the tournament's i participate in are usually attended by more than just one style. for instance my school would be there as would some local tang soo do schools. the forms aren't the same for everyone. that makes it interesting. it seems silly to me that a 10 person division would all have to do the same form. is that how WTF competition works?

Even in closed style ATA the 2nd & 3rd dan rings are allowed to perform 1st dan forms, etc. And, while I would not perform bikak well, I could perform it at 45. A few of the kicks would be quite close to sea level and singularly unimpressive.

Posted by: Seiken

Re: New Poomsae - 05/11/08 03:23 PM

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hmmm interesting point of view. this could be due to my lack of knowledge for WTF forms competition. it's very possible that i'm just unfamiliar with the system. i practice forms for the sake of the art not for the sake of competition. if you are over 40 and have the physical ability to do bikak, are you not allowed to practice it? the tournament's i participate in are usually attended by more than just one style. for instance my school would be there as would some local tang soo do schools. the forms aren't the same for everyone. that makes it interesting. it seems silly to me that a 10 person division would all have to do the same form. is that how WTF competition works?

Im just going by what has been said.

It seems to be the direction they are going in. So many schools have their differences in the other forms that its unfair when competing, because they seemingly judge on a specific way the form should be done. Its not them doing it wrong, its them doing what they are taught. And unless you are taught by that judge, or get lucky. Chances are your getting a low mark.

These forms would be universal in their performance because thats what they are intended for. That is how they are being introduced to the schools. And within that regards, age divisions come into play, because thats what they are intended for also. Theres no reason in forcing the 40+ group to break their hip doing a jump spinning kick just because someone else is a beast. Its unfair and out of reason. Maybe when you feel the arthritis later you will understand better.

Its not a matter of being able to do it or not. Thats beyond the point. Anyone can do anything they want. But your not going to be entering an age specific division doing a form not intended for your age group because you can. Its a competition. You dont enter a piano competition with a saxophone for much the same reason.

Everyone always talks about the art aspect. Would you tell Picasso his paintings were for swatting flies and that its [censored] he intended them for viewing pleasure? Creators of the forms are artists, so telling them its [censored] for intending it for 40+ is disrespectful, and wrong. Of course, once you buy the item you can what you want. But its not rooted in truth. No one would argue my shoes are for me to put on my feet, but they sure as hell work good for squishy little bugs. But telling the shoemaker its BS that your supposed to wear the shoes, because you can squash things with it is wrong.

Music, dance, art. Its all the same. No one owns notes or chords, or colors, or body movement. But once it has been engineered into a cohesive unit. IE: A song, A painting, A form. Someone does own it.

Posted by: Shonuff

Re: New Poomsae - 05/12/08 10:01 AM

I'm just posting my thoughts without having viewed the whole thread.

I think these two patterns are excellent. They look like a lot of fun and they make great training. A preliminary examination does imply primarily punch and kick fighting; a huge surprise in the way of the foot and fist!
The notion that a person needs anything else to fight is as much a product of crowd-following bandwagonism as the idea that twin blocks are for use against two opponents.

These forms represent a large degree of what WTF Taekwondo is and are a step towards what I was talking about in the "Should they re-invent their forms" thread.

Personally I would like to see more of the Hapkido and military taekwondo influence that showcases more of what TKD encapsulates consolodated into the advanced forms, and in terms of the effectiveness of raw taekwondo I would like to see the development of forms that showcase the distance controlling punch-kick martial art through simple but effective practical techniques and movements. Forms like this would be for beginners, but self defense is exactly that, beginners MA.

I hope they take this idea and run with it.

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/12/08 09:36 PM

seems that these forms were intended for a style of competition that i am not accustomed to.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: New Poomsae - 05/13/08 10:27 AM

As many may know, the Chang Hon system has 24 patterns. In the early 80s Kodang Tul was replaced by Juche Tul. Many will say that was political, but it did introduce new techniques previoulsy not encompassed by the Tuls. Some Chang Hon schools never adopted Juche & some give the option for older students to do Kodang in lieu of Juche.

One of the ITFs, (NK) has started a Veterans WCs. They will be having the 3rd one this September in conjunction with the Junior WCs. It has been discussed to move this event from the Jr WCs venue, as it is growing in popularity. One solution is to move it into the Int. MA Games.

In any event, they, the veterans, age groups of 40-40, 50-59 & 60+, do the same Tuls. This is like the touraments that have senior divisions. At most of these venues, an adult can compete in the younger or adult categories, but not the other way around.

My gut tells me that I don't like the different patterns for different age groups. The way I look at it, TKD is for all. That is the way IMHO it should be. However, just because it is for all, doesn't mean the results will be the same or should be the same for all. I know 1st hand, as I am not blessed with physical talent. However in the true sense of the MA of TKD, I am not competing against anyone else (outside of tournament competition), just myself. I only care if I get better myself, not that I am or get better than you. So I don't see the need for seperate Tuls. In fact, I think it goes against the grain of what traditional TKD is about. JMHO

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/13/08 11:12 PM

it's a little underexpectant (*hopes that's a real word*) of 40+ martial artists. many martial artists who reach the level at which these forms are performed and are over 40 are in good enough shape to do both forms. they should raise the age restriction if there must be one. either that or allow it to be at the discretion of the student. i would be a little ticked off if someone told me i couldn't do a form due to my age. do any of you think the official who is responsible for adding a new form (i'm referencing bikak here)to the WTF syllabus is under 40? i wouldn't be surprised if he were a 60 year old 7th or higher dan who is perfectly capable of doing a tornado kick, jump 360 back kick, and flying side kicks.

Posted by: JohnL

Re: New Poomsae - 05/14/08 08:43 AM

"Did you watch the video? Not many young people can even do the techniques in the under 40 poomse,"

Whether anyone can or can't perform a kata is up to the individual and his training. If he can he should do the Kata, if he can't he shouldn't. To be told by an organization that he can't do a Kata (either in training or competition) is garbage perpetuated by the garbage sellers.

"Its competition poomse and contains many high risk techniques. I dont see too many mainstream karate katas that contain what Bikak does either. Unless your talking XMA."

In that case I suggest you see the rotating jumps that are performed in Unsu and Kanku Sho from the Shotokan system. I perform both of these Kata's in competition and am over 40.

"Ya know, featherweights dont fight for the heavyweight title for a reason,"

In karate tournaments as well as being weight divisions there are also open divisions where anyone of any weight can compete.

"no punching to the face in sparring for a reason. Rules. Commonality."

No, to dilute TKD from a MA to a sport and to make it different enough from boxing to get accepted into the Olympics.

"I actually like the fact that they take into consideration the millions of people practicing and competing, and the fact that eventually these people will get old, and might still want to compete."

If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.

"But not have the youth and time to do what they once could. Of course there are exceptions, but were talking worldwide practices here... a common ground for competition. An advanced poomse for young people which highlights some of the unique TKD kicking techniques while retaining a nice tradtional flavor, and a moderately difficult poomse for the aging martial artist."

Total sanctimonious Bull$hit.

"I think they are so daring because, well.. they created the poomse. They have a right to tell us what its for. Doesnt mean we have to follow it.. im learning hanryu myself. But if your entering poomse competition a common form to judge on is what is needed."

Again garbage. The association are again trying to dilute what they practice so it is available to the widest market, thus increasing their profits. It's a business decision, plain and simple.

If this is what the Kukkiwon is about and proposing, the TKD fraternity should have the balls to stand up and shout NOOOOOOOO. And you wonder why TKD is held in such low regard by some.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: New Poomsae - 05/14/08 10:02 AM

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do any of you think the official who is responsible for adding a new form (i'm referencing bikak here)to the WTF syllabus is under 40? i wouldn't be surprised if he were a 60 year old 7th or higher dan who is perfectly capable of doing a tornado kick, jump 360 back kick, and flying side kicks.

While I have seen some TKD pioneers, now grandmasters, around 70 years of age, still do perfect splits & high twisting kicks (to the rear, behind their head), these are IMHO the exceptions. They were super talented military men with MA experience that formed original TKD. However they are the exception. We must remember that TKD is for all ages, sizes & shapes. However that does not mean the outcome or ability levels will be or should be the same. I have seena 60+ year old person win a gold medal in the Veterans WCs performing TongIl. While it was so nice to watch, this 6th degree did not do it as well as GM Choi Jung Hwa, his junior in age, but senior in rank, did on the CD Rom.

I don't see the need for seperate patterns, as TKD is an individual journey. I do Juche, by far the hardest pattern I ever did. I can't do it well & I struggle each time, but I do it & don't expect to beat some hot shot talented & younger 2nd degrees. Nor is that even in my thought process. I also think I could teach them all something that would help them perform it better, especially the 3 hardest techniques!

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: New Poomsae - 05/14/08 10:05 AM

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If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.

Good point & worth repeating! TKD is an individual journey of self improvement.

Posted by: Seiken

Re: New Poomsae - 05/16/08 01:02 PM

JohnL, Everyone who doesnt do something the way you want or expect them to is not doing it for plain marketing. Your POV anyone in a power position who does something for their art is doing it for marketing. Is that the case? If not, what determined that?

With the millions of people already practicing im sure these two forms are going to be drawing in millions more right? Cause poomse always has been the main attraction for TKD to the public right?

As for age, 40+ is old, 40+ includes 90 year olds too ya know

, there is a + for a reason, and if you happen to be able to do something not EVERYONE can they shouldnt have to live up to YOUR expectations. Are you really that upset about a poomse made for competition with age requirements? Its a competition, with a common poomse , with rules and age divisions. And somehow you think because you can do the form you should be allowed to no matter what. Good sportsman you are.

The TKD governing bodies have to create common ground for millions to be able to compete on. Olympic level competition. They have to worry about things you JohnL, dont have to, and seem to not be able to even take into consideration. Your right, its total sanctimonious [censored].

And face punching not allowed, was to water down the MA to a sport? Its the sparring practice, only one aspect of TKD btw, and has rules for people to compete on, you know, commonality. Pretty much the same as every other sporting competition and martial art, whats your style like? Since this is martial arts, people think they own everything. Can I use a gun? How about an Axe? When was the last time you played a board game but used different rules than the person you were playing? How did that work out for you? Better yet, since TKD isnt your thing how about entering a Kyokushin comp. and only strike the face, let me know how that goes.

As for the jumps in kusanku and unsu. Is this really what your comparing to Bikak? Nice try, but that doesnt cut the cake. Flying side kick, triple side kick, jump roundhouse, jump spinning back kick, jump spinning roundhouse, spinning hook kick... if you really want to give it a go just upload a video of someone 40+ doing Bikak at competition level.

And JohnL, im trying to stay within context of the poomse and their given relation to TKD. As for being held in low regards, thats mainly by people looking in from the outside. TKD is not the only politically driven martial art, with odd decisions and 10year old grandmasters. I personally dont care what anyone ever thinks of me, I rather people think I suck and cant fight anyway. And much of what is going on now is because the TKD people have spoken up, a new president was elected and has promised many new reforms regarding TKD, and has already shown that it will most definitely happen. On that note, much of what we know factually about these new poomse is speculation. But yea, I do agree with you like I said before, just not on every detail of the situation.

Posted by: Seiken

Re: New Poomsae - 05/16/08 01:13 PM

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If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.

Good point & worth repeating! TKD is an individual journey of self improvement.

Pretty much the basis for my point.

Individual, meaning not everyone can do or should have to do because someone else can do. Its easy to regulate yourself, either you can or cant do it. And if you can you choose whether you do or dont. If you cant, you dont. You only have to worry about yourself .

So then how does a governing body regulate millions of people on something so individual in competition? I believe these poomse are part of the answer.

I think it has very little to do with marketing and more to do with making the already millions of people practicing happy, the current status of taegeuk and yudanja forms in competition is horrible, this fixes many of those issues and can almost replace them altogether for some people. WITHOUT changing the individual teaching practices of ANY dojang. Marketing? No. Carrying out reforms to improve TKD quality? Yes. Some people do care about their art, contrary to what some think.

Posted by: Supremor

Re: New Poomsae - 05/16/08 01:19 PM

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Again garbage. The association are again trying to dilute what they practice so it is available to the widest market, thus increasing their profits. It's a business decision, plain and simple.

Can't see how this decision does that. I actually disagree with prescribing different patterns for different age groups, but I can't see how the choice can be made for financial reasons.

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If you consider 40 old, I will be pleased to give you an attitude adjustment. At 52 I still compete regularly in 19-35 age divisions. Some people I compete against wish I would go into the "old" divisions, but it isn't out of concern for me.

40 IS old if you look at the usual ages of athletes in both combat sports and other sports. Footballers generally retire in their mid 30s, and basketball players in their late 30s. In boxing, there aren't many who go beyond 35 successfully. There are exceptions in all sports of course- Randy Couture is still fighting at 40 something, but don't think for a minute that people don't notice his age.

Should you be able to compete in the normal division if you want to, sure; but don't criticise others because their bodies can no longer handle it and they seek competition in a more equal division. Afterall, it's better than just giving up isn't it?

Posted by: Supremor

Re: New Poomsae - 05/16/08 01:30 PM

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Are you really that upset about a poomse made for competition with age requirements? Its a competition, with a common poomse , with rules and age divisions. And somehow you think because you can do the form you should be allowed to no matter what. Good sportsman you are.

I find it pretty stupid to be honest. In the ITF there are 3 patterns at each black belt level for the first few dans. This gives choice to the person about which pattern they want to do. More athletic competitors find Gae-Baek to be most impressive in cometition, but there are others who prefer to perform the other two because they like them or because they are particularly good at certain aspects from them. The point is, they have a choice! If a pattern is in the syllabus then someone should have the choice to perform it badly!

Sometimes, a 40+ guy will come along and perform a very difficult pattern very well, blowing his competition, who have chosen a less aethetic pattern, out of the water. Well done him! We are not all equal in competition- you can control some things like experience or weight categories in sparring, but after a certain point it becomes absurd. Controlling which patterns competitors are allowed to perform because some may not be athletic enough anymore is crazy, afterall, isn't conditioning a major factor in martial arts. Those with better conditioning should be celebrated, not told that they should lower their standards to allow others a chance.

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And face punching not allowed, was to water down the MA to a sport? Its the sparring practice, only one aspect of TKD btw, and has rules for people to compete on, you know, commonality. Pretty much the same as every other sporting competition and martial art, whats your style like?

Commonality should not lead to the watering down of sparring rules. No punching to the face in my opinion is a rule that has no grounding in common sense. However, there are better places to discuss that outside of this thread.

Posted by: Seiken

Re: New Poomsae - 05/16/08 01:48 PM

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it's a little underexpectant (*hopes that's a real word*) of 40+ martial artists. many martial artists who reach the level at which these forms are performed and are over 40 are in good enough shape to do both forms. they should raise the age restriction if there must be one. either that or allow it to be at the discretion of the student. i would be a little ticked off if someone told me i couldn't do a form due to my age. do any of you think the official who is responsible for adding a new form (i'm referencing bikak here)to the WTF syllabus is under 40? i wouldn't be surprised if he were a 60 year old 7th or higher dan who is perfectly capable of doing a tornado kick, jump 360 back kick, and flying side kicks.

Where is anyone saying someone cant do the form because of their age? On that note, do you expect your father or grandfather to do Bikak? How about your mother and grandmother? Really, when they sign up for the competition what do YOU expect them to be able to do? Bikak or Hanryu? Some might even say Hanryu would be expecting a bit much. Now consider were talking MILLIONS of people who practice the art. Not every 40+ is Randy Couture or JohnL for that matter. And im sure a majority of the under 40 competitors wont be competing when Bikak is introduced, because they wont be able to do it.

All they are doing is regulating poomse for competition that has age divisions. You dont represent all under 40 martial artists do you? How about if a poomse was created with your limitations in mind. Would this be representative of millions of people practicing the same art? Now you understand the difficulty the creators went through.

You and JohnL are only fostering insecurities you have about age and what others think of that. While completely missing the point. Talking about expectations, you guys expect everyone else to compete based on what you think they should be able to do, which is only rooted in what you have done or think you can or will do.

In the end, who has the right to tell anyone what the poomse is intended for? The creators.

And if anyone said it was for something else they would be 100% wrong. No matter how right some of the points they make are. Its quite simple.

The equivalent is telling a songwriter the song was written for you as they are telling you it was written for someone else. Many medical professionals would deem you delusional and possibly psychotic.

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: New Poomsae - 05/16/08 01:49 PM

did a person younger than 40 yrs old create bikak? if that's the case they're allowed to make that a <40 form. however that seems doubtful. what dan was this form supposed to fall under? it seems to me that this is more difficult than the higher poomse in the WTF curriculum.

New Poomsae

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