Cutting down the tree

From my TKD just linear low kicks,like front or side.Some takedowns,not many and a bit 'iffy'.The rest just sweeps or trips.
I always took it that the chamber or re-chamber of the kicks to be part of the defense.
There might be more its just my TKD instructor doesnt know it or has not shown it.
With the trad turning kick in TKD it seems to be 'if you can kick high you can kick low' and I dont know of a specific low kick taught.
Thats ok from the idea of wearing steel toe cap boots and digging one in.
But doing an good low kick using the shin or intep requires different body mechanics and I have not seen that taught in TKD.

Outside of TKD,yea.Low kicks,submissions,low kick defence,Takedowns,etc etc.
One thing I was shown was if your in someones gaurd to strike and attack their thighs,if you can sit up enough.Best to do it ASAP when you go down rather than get pulled into a gaurd game.Or to elbow backwards onto their thighs if your pulled down round the arms or neck.
Its not meant in place of grappling ability or anything like that.
I see opportunitys for this to be done in UFC but they dont.Maybe its not allowed I dont know.

Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/04/08 11:45 AM

I always found that slightly bizzare myself Razorfoot. As I understand it, TKD basically emerged from Shotokan and TaeK Kyon, BOTH of which make extensive sweeps/low kicks. Don't know why they aren't taught more widely in TKD, and why they aren't used in sparring.

I read a book my Master Kit Kiew about Shaolin Monks. He said that if a Shaolin Monk had to kick a high target, they would do a jumping kick. The Monks knew centuries and centuries ago that high kicks from the ground left you off balance and vunerable, so they never used them.

I find that in modern TKD, there is an emphasis placed on kicking, particuarly high kicks from the ground. I wonder has it always been this way? If so, do you think low kicks/sweeps were all but eliminated from the system of TKD to prevent, as the Shaolin Monks saw it, as the weakness of high kicks being exposed?

Just rambling here, but I have never came up with a good reason as to why they aren't widely taught or included in TKD more.

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/04/08 12:04 PM

To me, it just makes sense. If a guy attacks you with a knife, your first priority, if you can't escape, is to disarm the opponent anyway you can. If the legs are a kickers most prominent weapon, destroy the weapon, remove the threat.

I have always tried to do scenarios based on this concept and thought it strange that some schools didn't teach how to eliminate the threat of the best weapons we used to better prepare us. If I am best at kicking, it helps me to understand what someone might do to eliminate my kicks and what I need to do to 1. stop that from happening & 2. have a back up way of fighting and defense if my best weapons are taken from me.

Take downs and sweeps are great against kickers, especially high kickers but it doesn't end the threat. I was referring to techniques that disable the attacking leg or at least put the attacker in so much pain that they think about it before sending the leg out again.

Scottie

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/04/08 12:14 PM

Quote:

I always found that slightly bizzare myself Razorfoot. As I understand it, TKD basically emerged from Shotokan and TaeK Kyon, BOTH of which make extensive sweeps/low kicks. Don't know why they aren't taught more widely in TKD, and why they aren't used in sparring.
I find that in modern TKD, there is an emphasis placed on kicking, particuarly high kicks from the ground. I wonder has it always been this way? If so, do you think low kicks/sweeps were all but eliminated from the system of TKD to prevent, as the Shaolin Monks saw it, as the weakness of high kicks being exposed?

No, you must 1st understand the history of TKD & how it developed to nderstand the answer to your very valid question/observation.
Basically most of the early Korean MAists had studied some form of Japanese Karate. So after the brutual occupation of their Nation by Japan, a fierce nationalistic movement took place to reinstill Korean pride & bring back Korean culture. As such, they never would want to practice a Japanese MA, but they were. Slowly thgings changed to make what they were doing "more Korean" & therefore less Japanese connected. The JiDO Kwan was a driving force behind the development of radically new competition sparring. These rules mandated certain very Japanese moves be outlawed, like all hand strikes, other than punch to the chest, sweeps & takedowns. In addition, the poijnt system encourage the use of the legs, which spurred the development of foot movements & fast kicks. This eventually took the Art down another path, especially when it became an Olympic sport & the kids starting signing up as a result of Karate Kid movies & NinJa Turtles. As it became a more widespread commerical money making venture, income & insurance played a part as well. The ITF evolution, took a somewhat different path. However, what most people view TKD as, is not ITF, but rather the larger, stronger & more influnetial WTF or sport TKD. JMHO

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/04/08 12:39 PM

I agree. ITF is more SD oriented and truer to the original concept of TKD but in answer to Prizewriter's issue and getting back to the original topic, with high kicking being the standard, what techniques are practiced to capitalize on the weakness inherent in a high kick. Also, what techniques are taught to guard against those same techniques.

In training in ITF dojangs, I have not seen attacks specifically designated for disabling the attacking leg. I have seen the sweeps, takedowns, and other counters, but nothing specifically designated to destroy/disable the attacking leg. It may well be due to my limited exposure and if so, I will gladly admit that but being a TKD stylist, it concerns me that other styles showcase a multitude of techniques for destroying the attacking leg but TKD, a style that excels in kicking, has a weakness in that form of training.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/04/08 02:51 PM

I think in many schools, since there is a rule prohibition in kicking under the belt, it is not often seen. We emphasize it by identifying all the vital spots & weak areas to kick below the belt & we seperate sport from SD. We employ low kicks, pressing kicks (inward & outward) as well as stamping kicks & back snap kick. In addition, attacking the leg when grabbed with strikes from the upper extremities as well as blocking the legs when they are attacking. TKD blocks are meant to hurt your opponent as well as protect yourself, unless you are doing pushing blocks or some other technique not designed to damage an opponent while defending yourself. Of course leverage & locks on the legs as well, when it comes to actual being on the floor, or making your way down there.

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/04/08 02:58 PM

Thanks ITFunity. I appreciate the clarification. I teach the basics the same as you. A block is a strike and a strike is also a block depending on placement and force applied. If you miss an opportunity to do damage when you apply a block, that will hurt you later.

Blocking downward with an elbow to cover your ribs serves two purposes if you can damage the incoming leg. An elbow to the shin can deter many future kicks off the same leg. Raising the elbow in a cover block for the head for an incoming roundhouse can be painful to the kicker's foot as well, preventing the desire to kick to the head again.

Just a couple of small examples.

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/05/08 04:04 PM

You are not going to find many schools that teach such things nowadays for 2 principle reasons:

1) TKD never emphasized leg kicks. Most TKD kicks use the foot as the striking surface; leg kicks tend to use the shin.

2) Since leg kicks as=re not allowed in TKD tournaments, few schools teach them.

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 09:26 AM

Quote:

You are not going to find many schools that teach such things nowadays for 2 principle reasons:

1) TKD never emphasized leg kicks. Most TKD kicks use the foot as the striking surface; leg kicks tend to use the shin.

That is not the way I have been taught in any TKD school I have attended. All targets are viable targets with all weapons. To a hard target, you may want to select a different weapon but to any soft target (inner & outer thigh, back of knee, back of ankle), instep or foot works just fine. We break with instep or ball of foot. Either works well so using the foot to strike the legs is not a concern.

Quote:

2) Since leg kicks are not allowed in TKD tournaments, few schools teach them.

Training for a tournament & training for SD are two very different things and both have been taught in the schools I have attended.

I would simply like to see more devastating techniques used to limit the threat, whether the kicks are to my head or to my leg.

Posted by: TroTro

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 10:09 AM

I am just wondering, would leg kicks changes the stance, footwork and chambering? Like lower stance for better reach to low target? Or instead of chamber knee up high, keep the knee below the hip for low kicks?

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 10:46 AM

For economy of motion, It would be a good practice. When we practice low kicks, we do not chamber high to kick low. The leg travels close to the ground then comes up a bit to strike with a low, quick snap.

The only art I have seen with a high chamber to strike low has been Savate.

Posted by: matxtx

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 01:48 PM

Kind of yea.There would be no chamber as such.Not like a knee up snap out chamber.
Not realy a lower stance, its more dropping your body weight downwards.Your head would go down and off centre where as for high high your head would go up to help the weight go up.Then there is the use of the upper body to get power.
Plus you have to do it with tactics in mind.Still able to defend,still able to move on to whatever happens next.

I dont know if its what you meant Razorlight though its not a good idea to kick upwards I believe.Thats how you get your leg snapped if someone shin blocks you.Better to chop downwards into the leg like ,erm,cutting down a tree.

The footwork,well,the angle needs to be right or it wont tacticaly work as well or get as much power.Its hard to explain though want to get 'beyond' them and kick as though your going through them on your way.In Thai boxing they step off at an angle.

Posted by: TroTro

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 02:25 PM

If the head goes off-center, does that affects the footwork (after the low kick) or subsequence kicks as well? I am not saying that style of low kick lacks power or damage, but does it integrate well with TKD?

Sorry I am a bit confused ^^; Just reading the text is hard to imagine.

Posted by: matxtx

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 05:49 PM

Yea,its probably a bit silly of me to try to describe something like that.

Well,if you threw a punch you would not leave your arm out or have to be told to now bring it back in.You would do it anyway and then move on.So its the same.
Any striking technique is the whole body doing something..bang...then you carry on as the situation allows.

Does it intergrate with TKD?
TKD can be many things so I dont know.
I have to adapt but I adapt try to adapt it all ,haha.
The best example for stand up fighting in leg kicking is Muay Thai.

Here is some good leg kicking in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnxaZw2oSkU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gx2QPcJT4

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 06:14 PM

Let me say this for the 500 billionth time:

YES, I KNOW THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS!!!!!

Glad you found some good schools, razorfoot. They are few and far between these days.

Posted by: jude33

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 10:49 PM

Quote:

Here is some good leg kicking in action.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnxaZw2oSkU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_gx2QPcJT4

Nice

Jude

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/07/08 10:54 PM

Quote:

I am a TKD stylist and have been for some time. In most of my years of training, I wasn't taught to attack the legs, which actually confused me quite a bit. If the legs were a kickers greatest weapons, and we were kickers, wouldn't it make sense to take that weapon away?

Over the last 10 years or so, I have had the benefit of training techniques designed to destroy the base or cut down the tree. I am not talking about traps and sweeps, but strikes or submissions designed to put that kicking leg out of commision.

As a TKD stylist, do you train in leg destruction techniques and/or how to defend against them?

That's excellent! I believe it's a very important part of your sd training. When I did TKD, leg kicks were off limits.

Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Cutting down the tree - 01/08/08 09:33 AM

In tournament style WTF TKD, leg kicks are off limits but we make distinctions between tournament training and SD training.

And I agree with you Fileboy2002, most WTF schools today do not teach viable SD techniques. They do water down a once strong SD system with a full range of techniques down to an art that kids use to get trophies on the weekends and nothing more sometimes. But to say an art has no value at all for SD, I don't and can't agree with that when I have seen it work.

As it is frequently taught today, yes, it is a weaker art and very sports oriented but when the whole range of techniques are taught, it is a viable means of SD, no different from its Japanese cousins (karate) who, for the most part, have held true to their roots and still teach their whole syllabus.

Cutting down the tree