TKD on Human Weapon

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 01:14 PM

His initial comment came off as the "zomg tkd is teh suck" type of comments we see from time to time.

Now that he's explained his position, I take it back.

Posted by: matxtx

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 02:54 PM

I agree with Fileboy.
If we are honest its arguable up 80 to 90 percent of TKD is not near to reality in terms of dealing with violence.
Though that can be said for at lot of other styles too
And the little TKD that is good wont get promoted.
Those that are good will be looking outside of TKD too,adapting and adding. Politics and purist negitivity towards moving forward means they definitly wont get promoted as TKD.

Its a style,like others, that has made its own 'world' almost by making sure its effective within its own rules and training methods.TKD needs to be taken outside of that against non complient people that come at you like a loon with realistic intention.
A simple full on rugby type tackle complimented with furiouse punching,thats very likely to happen in reality, would take out most TKD people.

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 03:05 PM

Just for the record: I have practiced ITF TKD (chung do kwan) since 1982. I have never trained in WTF (mu duk kwan), although I have trained with WTF practioners.

Posted by: BrianS

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 03:09 PM

I like how this person put it..

Quote:

The incredible 'success' of TKD in the USA has, in my opinion, been the most significant aspect in the erosion of the public's understanding of martial arts. Personally, I understand the need for people, especially women, to feel 'empowered' by a discipline. But TKD as it has been promoted to most in the USA...seems to promulgate 'inner health' and physical health over fighting utility.
Think about it: when 'karate' first hit the shores...what the public mindset was and the training (militaristic, etc.). Karate isn't all that popular anymore...but with a TKD studio in every town pushing out 'family friendly martial arts'...it's the defacto face of MA in the USA. How are you going to fight popular opinion? Aren't the masses 'right'?

This is put very well IMO. No bashing,just solid opinion. No, the good stuff will never be promoted.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 03:20 PM

Where do you get the numbers 80-90%. Do you have fact to back that up,or is it just your opinion ? And your last comment is also inaccurate about that type of attack being likely to happen and taking out TKD people. You too are painting with a very broad brush. Why wouldn't an attack like that take out a Muay Thai practioner or a Karate-Ka practioner ? And I can say honestly that I have never been attacked like that, mostly its some kind of sucker punch. Not saying that they don't happen and again not saying that there isn't a high percentage of TKD schools that train for sport only but lets face some facts here. Most street attacks do not involve some one who is training in a formal setting, they are usually thugs or drunks, most martial artists are of a peaceful nature. If the fight goes to the ground chances are neither one of the people are trained grapplers (or strikers for that matter). Lets remember also, ALL of the arts that get refered to here are mostly in the context of sport and not self defense and with the rise in popularity of MMA matches everybody is jumping on how this is good self defense. This is NOT SD, it is still sport and these are not the people you find in the typical street fight!

VDJ

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 03:47 PM

Quote:

Just for the record: I have practiced ITF TKD (chung do kwan) since 1982. I have never trained in WTF (mu duk kwan), although I have trained with WTF practioners.

I am not sure I understand this. The Chung Do Kwan was the 2nd school to open in SK. Moo Do Kwan was also one of the originals schools in SK. But niether of them are ITF or WTF, as they existed before the 2 groups were formed (Itf 1966, WTF 1973)

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 05:58 PM

I started training under the late Han Cha Kyo in Chicago in 1982. At the time, he was affiliated with the ITF and called the style he taught Chung Do Kwan. I have no idea whether this was appropriate or not, but that is what he called it. Later on, he broke with the ITF and started the Universal Taekwondo Federation, a small group of schools now headed by his brother, Han Min Kyo.

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 09:03 PM

I wish I did not have to keep saying this over and over and over again, no matter what I post. But here it goes:

YES, OF COURSE THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS.

My criticism of what WTF rules have done to TKD was meant to be general, not categorical. Of course good schools and practioners still exist.

And you are correct: no art can call itself truly complete. However, I would argue that some are more "complete" than others. I have done TKD for 25 years and judo for 10. In my opinion, great kicking skills are a fine thing to have. However, they are nowhere near as important to self-defense as grappling skills.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 10:24 PM

Again, I did not disagree with one thing you said regarding olympic sparring rules. I have posted MANY times on this sight how I felt that TKD's inclusion to the olympics was the worst thing that happend to it. I am addressing the fact that there are more than EXCEPTIONS, they are there if you look, they maybe a minority but not exceptions! Also, it does come down to the fighter and his instruction, but I do not put grappling skills any higher on the list than I do striking (not just kicking). Again, most fights do not include people with formal training and the people who train grappling are training just as much for sport as is a TKD practioner ! Finally, a point of mine that has yet to be addressed is why are the other striking arts that bear similar "sport" rules as TKD not getting the same critisism ?

VDJ

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/21/07 10:26 PM

Quote:

TKD will be the featured art on the Human Weapon series this week (Friday 12/21/07 @ 10 pm on the History Channel in the USA). Be prepared for the full WTF slant as they will be in South Korea. I will be VERY surprised if there is ANY reference to the ITF and the Chang Hon style. I'm looking forward to it as I'm curious as to the content.

VDJ

It seems that this episode has been re-scheduled for next Thursday 12/27/07 at 12 noon and 6 PM (according to the History channels webste). Nothing like a last minute change !

VDJ

Posted by: flynch

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 02:10 AM

Quote:

I started training under the late Han Cha Kyo in Chicago in 1982. At the time, he was affiliated with the ITF and called the style he taught Chung Do Kwan. I have no idea whether this was appropriate or not, but that is what he called it. Later on, he broke with the ITF and started the Universal Taekwondo Federation, a small group of schools now headed by his brother, Han Min Kyo.

Yes your instructor was definately one of the early group of ITF style instructors. It is fine to say you learned ITF style TKD but this is not necessarily the same as the current version of ITF style that people are familiar with. Many of these early instructors had a great focus on self defense and teaching the ability to generate powerful techniques with speed and accuracy in a fighting environment. They did not run "family martial arts centers". They were run as they had in the military to produce fighters.

You should consider yourself lucky to have learned from Han Cho Kyo. He was GM Nam's assistant instructor back in 1956 in the Korean Army

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 02:13 AM

WTF rules get criticized more than other rules for one simple reason: they have done more far damage to TKD than, say, boxing rules have done to boxing or judo rules to judo. While boxing and judo matches are rule governed, it is clear to any observer that these are still tough, rugged contests. TKD, by contrast, is just as obviously foot tag. Back in 1988, Chicago Tirbune columnist Mike Ryko, who was no martial arts expert, joked: "I understand TKD is still a domonstration sport; I guess that's why jumping kicks to the face don't hurt yet."

Posted by: matxtx

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 08:23 AM

The numbers are my opinion.From what I have seen first hand and trained.From what I have seen at other schools and from what I have seen from footage.
I said arguably.

Its a broad brush that believe I of TKD.Im saying alot,not all.Thats the way TKD has gone.The sooner its admitted the sooner it could be attempted to be sorted out.
An attack like that might take other styles out but this is a TKD forum and this discussion is about TKD.
.It was an example of something simple you dont see the MOST TKD people train against.Its more likely than alot of what you do see being trained for.I realy do think its a likely attack.Thats from personel experience and others alot more experienced than me.Again,its just an example of a simple attack.

VDJ said,
''Most street attacks do not involve some one who is training in a formal setting, they are usually thugs or drunks, most martial artists are of a peaceful nature. If the fight goes to the ground chances are neither one of the people are trained grapplers (or strikers for that matter). Lets remember also, ALL of the arts that get refered to here are mostly in the context of sport and not self defense and with the rise in popularity of MMA matches everybody is jumping on how this is good self defense. This is NOT SD, it is still sport and these are not the people you find in the typical street fight!''

I believe thats another big problem in TKD,the naivety and almost arrogance and hopefullnes that the person attacking will be a 'nobody' and the martial artist is going to be the hero and save the day from the big violent man even though that martial artist is non violent.
The reality is you have to go beyond their violence to survive an assualt and to do that you have to be training as that and realising how violent you have to be able to be.If the person does happen to be trained or a regular to violent fights then you are buggered.The way over that is to train as though you will meet a very skilled violent person.Which is what I do.So you can take the risk they wont be skilled but I wont.Plus its more fun and challenging in training.That my take on the unskilled/skilled opponent.

Grappling can be standing grappling too, which is highly likely to happen.Being skilled in grappling is so obviously a positive in my eyes that Im not going to bother with. If you dont believe in it thats cool.

The training for sport verses training for SD thing would take the thread down a new path so I will leave that unless thats where it goes.Its been done a few times already.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 11:30 AM

"I believe thats another big problem in TKD,the naivety and almost arrogance and hopefullnes that the person attacking will be a 'nobody' and the martial artist is going to be the hero and save the day from the big violent man even though that martial artist is non violent.
The reality is you have to go beyond their violence to survive an assualt and to do that you have to be training as that and realising how violent you have to be able to be.If the person does happen to be trained or a regular to violent fights then you are buggered.The way over that is to train as though you will meet a very skilled violent person.Which is what I do.So you can take the risk they wont be skilled but I wont.Plus its more fun and challenging in training.That my take on the unskilled/skilled opponent."

I am far from naive and don't assume anything about anybody or their abilities or their potential for violence and with the amount of schools I have visited I have found some very good instructors who show the true self defense side of TKD, including stand up grappling, my instructor for one and 2 of which post on this site (V-Dan and Master Earl Weiss). And again, you only point to TKD practioners as being naive and arrogant (please don't use the premise that it is the TKD forum and you can't refer to the other arts as you are doing so by referring to grappling in this conversation already). I don't think that ther isn't a martial artist of ANY style that hasn't had the fantasy of being the "Hero"

"The training for sport verses training for SD thing would take the thread down a new path so I will leave that unless thats where it goes.Its been done a few times already."

Its my thread and I don't have a problem with it !

VDJ

Posted by: TeK9

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 03:29 PM

Since your allowing it VDJ, I think the way WTF TKD spars is a great way to develop good foot work and excellent kicks. By isolating your techniques and limiting them only to kicks, feints and chest punching, your able to focus on new counters and methods of attack.

Similar to boxing, when isolating your sparring to only punching, you learn proper body mechanics to maximize the efficiency of your punches. The same as wrestling and randori(judo/jujutsu).

Each form of sparring is great for practicing different ranges and techniques. At some point the practitioner may want to merge them all for optimize training.

Posted by: matxtx

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 03:31 PM

Well,you sounded it in your last post by saying you think most will not be skilled.Sorry if I offended.
I just realy believe thats a bad thing to think and that its bad to train for an unskilled opponent.

Are you dissagreeing that alot of TKD is unrealistic and trained poorly?
Or that I believe its arguably up to 80 to 90 per cent?

Like I have said,there are good ones out there they are just not getting promoted or doing any it seems.Its the same old 'pretend I hit you and I know whats coming' malarky.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 11:19 PM

Tek,

Lots of ways to develope footwork and counters. I do not think that olympic sparring is a great way to train for self defense !

VDJ

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/22/07 11:42 PM

Quote:

Well,you sounded it in your last post by saying you think most will not be skilled.Sorry if I offended.
I just realy believe thats a bad thing to think and that its bad to train for an unskilled opponent.

Are you dissagreeing that alot of TKD is unrealistic and trained poorly?
Or that I believe its arguably up to 80 to 90 per cent?

Like I have said,there are good ones out there they are just not getting promoted or doing any it seems.Its the same old 'pretend I hit you and I know whats coming' malarky.

No most are not skilled fighters, but I do not imply that you train they are not. Also, I do not agree with your assessment of 80-90%,. I have been to too many schools that have had quality instruction and train realistically, though I would agree that they are in the minority, just not at the figures that you are suggesting. What makes them different from say a Ishin-Ryu or Shotokan school. Why is this not considered unrealistic? Why is only grappling considered realistic ? A good striker is never going to let it go to the ground if they can avoid it. Number one rule of a self defense situation (other than avoiding the conflict all together) is end it quickly ! I have used TKD effectively for SD, so to me it is a realistic art.Though it maybe the National sport of South Korea, it is also the art that is still used in its military (as is in its Northern counterpart). It has been battle proven by the white horse division during the Viet Nam war (the Viet Cong had a tremendous fear of this group of warriors). This is a viable art! The problem is that the art and the sport are being confused as the same, a problem that other arts don't seem to face !

VDJ

Posted by: dicen

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/26/07 03:38 PM

VDJ you are correct there are other ways to develop foot work but in the realm of TKD, olympic style sparring is the best way to do it. In olympic sparring your only concern is the person kicking you, so you develop your distance and timing skills to the point where you can feint, counter, and attack in a moments notice. I loads of paul vunak tapes and he constantly says move around, stay on your toes. Well in Olympic you do just that, but you have to incorporate other train to supplement for the lack of hands or add suble changes to the rules to help students understand the difference between sport and self defense.

Posted by: flynch

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/26/07 06:51 PM

Yes TKD is the Martial Art that was taught to the Korean Army. It was for self defense and it was a hybred of many arts.

Just a small but important point some of those original instructors from the 50's and early 60's who helped set up the ITF and were military instructors at the time are offened by the labelling of their art as "Northern" as they had never been to North Korea. Thier home was in South Korean. They trainned Tae Kwon Do (which became ITF style). The trainning included defense against weapons in the battlefield and grappling (judo style moves).

TKD can be effectively used as self defense but it has to be trainned properly.

Like all arts Tae Kwon Do may have many holes but it also depends on the school We train punches to the head, train sweeps to the knee, train close quarters elbows, knees etc, spar hard (not all the time) and also learn about power development, acuracy flexibilty, conditioning and even patterns from time to time.

Our chief instructor's true focus is on stand up fighting ability (not tournament fighting) and power developement with the intention of using these skills for self defense.

Key thing is if you can't use a technique with knock out power there is porbably no need to throw it unless it is intended as a fake.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/27/07 07:08 PM

Quote:

VDJ you are correct there are other ways to develop foot work but in the realm of TKD, olympic style sparring is the best way to do it. In olympic sparring your only concern is the person kicking you, so you develop your distance and timing skills to the point where you can feint, counter, and attack in a moments notice. I loads of paul vunak tapes and he constantly says move around, stay on your toes. Well in Olympic you do just that, but you have to incorporate other train to supplement for the lack of hands or add suble changes to the rules to help students understand the difference between sport and self defense.

I am not a stranger to sparring olympic style TKD. I have enjoyed some success within it and my instructor is very accomplished in it as well (92 team trials, missing due to injury). Yes footwork is important to ALL styles of fighting, and boxing can help with your olympic sparring as well.

VDJ

Posted by: dicen

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/28/07 11:37 AM

I just saw Human Weapon, and was totally blown away by the lack of real SD techniques by the body guard demo. Did the Body Guards go to the Hong Kong Stuntman school of body guarding. I was really dissappointed with the whole show, not one hand technique or sparring combo that might actually land on a person. Really sad, just more hype and propoganda that lowers the arts reputation even more.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/28/07 01:04 PM

Why are you so surprised and disappointed ? With the exception of the Krav Maga and the Marine H2H, all of these episodes revolve around the sport aspect of the art they are featuring, why should this one be any different. It was pretty much what I expected. And one final thought for you to ponder, do you REALLY think that they are the REAL body gaurds, or part of the traveling DEMO team ?

VDJ

Posted by: dicen

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/28/07 02:58 PM

I know they focus on the sport aspect, but at least show some basic TKD evasion techniques instead of showing them some flashy kick that won't work on a experienced opponent. They could have shown some realistic techniques, or even show how the Korean Army uses TKD, like they did for muay thai and Kali. I don't know I like the show but am disappointed with all but a few of the episodes. The knock out was cool though, a classic counter. I was hoping they would show the Korean National Team Coach, not the Demo team coach.

Posted by: matxtx

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/28/07 04:04 PM

Quote:

No most are not skilled fighters, but I do not imply that you train they are not. Also, I do not agree with your assessment of 80-90%,. I have been to too many schools that have had quality instruction and train realistically, though I would agree that they are in the minority, just not at the figures that you are suggesting. What makes them different from say a Ishin-Ryu or Shotokan school. Why is this not considered unrealistic? Why is only grappling considered realistic ? A good striker is never going to let it go to the ground if they can avoid it. Number one rule of a self defense situation (other than avoiding the conflict all together) is end it quickly ! I have used TKD effectively for SD, so to me it is a realistic art.Though it maybe the National sport of South Korea, it is also the art that is still used in its military (as is in its Northern counterpart). It has been battle proven by the white horse division during the Viet Nam war (the Viet Cong had a tremendous fear of this group of warriors). This is a viable art! The problem is that the art and the sport are being confused as the same, a problem that other arts don't seem to face !
VDJ

I dont know how you train.But most TKD is trained as though its against a nobody and you seemed to be saying that that is alright.

I think its crazy of anyone to take that chance.Its lucky if they are unskilled.Pure luck.People likely to attack you or start fights will think they can beat you and/or just be violent nuts.Or people who like fighting and fight.
Its simply best to train for the worst IMO.And more challenging and fun.

Grappling is not considered more realistic than striking.
Both together is realistic.
80 to 9 is what I have seen.And I bet you would struggle to find a good solid Clip on Youtube or anywhere on the internet.
Most would be the usual unrealistic,display,ritual sport rules sparring.And theres alot on the internet.I can even get dogs on skateboards or shark attacks but no decent pure TKD.

Battle proven?In what capacity.
From what I know techniques were tested on prioners who could not fight back and also that in battles ,was the fitness and the tenacity of the training gained from the hard TKD training that was attributed to them.I bet they actualy sparred with contact and alot less rules too.
We cant keep going back to the past which non of us saw to give TKD credibility.It needs to be seen today and proven as effective and having effective training or its just going to get worse.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/28/07 04:12 PM

Quote:

We cant keep going back to the past which non of us saw to give TKD credibility.It needs to be seen today and proven as effective and having effective training or its just going to get worse.

You are right - it is going to get worse. Once a watering down occurs, it is so hard to stop. That is why few seriously consider TKD a method of SD, but rather a sport or a baby sitting service.
We try to follow the entire ITF syllabus & try to do it under as realistic conditions as possible. I think that is why our school is so small. But to us, quality matters. It is sad when I see the other schools in the area which are just IMHO belt mills.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/28/07 05:42 PM

No I never said that it is alright to train in that manner and yes we train in it as a way to defend ourselves (resisting). We also have done our fair share of competiton training, but we do not confuse one with the other. I am short on time and will post later in regards to my statement about "battle proven".

VDJ

Posted by: EarlWeiss

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 12/31/07 07:22 PM

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=...h&plindex=0

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/01/08 07:28 PM

Quote:

The Bill Duff got KO'd says nothing about his fighting skills. As I said earlier, when you are stripped of all your weapons and reduced to playing foot tag, you may well be vulvernable to the more experienced foot tag players.

Thats how I saw it as well.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/01/08 07:34 PM

Quote:

I just saw Human Weapon, and was totally blown away by the lack of real SD techniques by the body guard demo. Did the Body Guards go to the Hong Kong Stuntman school of body guarding. I was really dissappointed with the whole show, not one hand technique or sparring combo that might actually land on a person. Really sad, just more hype and propoganda that lowers the arts reputation even more.

I was also very disappointed as well.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/01/08 07:38 PM

Quote:

TKD will be the featured art on the Human Weapon series this week (Friday 12/21/07 @ 10 pm on the History Channel in the USA). Be prepared for the full WTF slant as they will be in South Korea. I will be VERY surprised if there is ANY reference to the ITF and the Chang Hon style. I'm looking forward to it as I'm curious as to the content.
VDJ

Well they didn'tmention the ITF, Chang Hon, Oh Do kwan or Gen. Choi, but they really didn't highlight the WTF, or any other Kwan or historic KMA figure. The impression I got was that it looked at TKD as more of an umbrella name, with ties to the past.

Posted by: EarlWeiss

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/02/08 08:02 AM

My observations. 1. Duff is too slow for this game. Saw the video on the net. Was surprised they did not pick the samaller quicker guy. 2. They mentioned TKD being founded to unify AND CODIFY the art. Seems to codify a single art you need a single system. 3. Would have like to seen what would have happened had they allowed head punching. 4. Would have like to seen it with a Korean guy as tall as Duff.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/02/08 11:46 AM

Quote:

2. They mentioned TKD being founded to unify AND CODIFY the art. Seems to codify a single art you need a single system.

Yes thats why I referred to them as using TKD as an umbrella name. Apparently they felt the way it was codifed into a single system was the Olypmic sparring rules, which is shared by many, if not most.

Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/06/08 12:52 PM

Slightly related theme here... a new show called Fight Quest has started in the USA. It is a similar, if not the same, idea as HW. It is suppose to focus less on the history and more on the training (than HW).

I was checking their schedule, and they have a Hapkido episode coming up. Should be interesting.

Posted by: SOUL-TAKER-187

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/08/08 12:53 PM

There are alot of hand techniques in TKD as you all know i`m show, but it up to that person who train to put this in his fighting game,why learn all these hand strikes and punches and block if your not going to use them, take what you learn for your school and train yourself in making up your own fighting game. ( i can learn all there is on how to drive a car but if i don`t put gas in it i want get anywhere.)all martial arts is just a tool it how you use them that make them great.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/08/08 01:02 PM

Quote:

There are alot of hand techniques in TKD as you all know i`m show, but it up to that person who train to put this in his fighting game,why learn all these hand strikes and punches and block if your not going to use them, take what you learn for your school and train yourself in making up your own fighting game.

Yes in fact, our founder often stated that TKD was 2/3 hands & 1/3 feet. The problem is that in some attempts to be different from Japanese Karate, the hands were lost. It seems that the prevailing thought is that in TKD schools today, there are little use of hands & little instruction with them, not even for blocking. Our military style of TKD emphasizes the hands in the syllabus, tournaments & in our everyday training. Good luck.......

Posted by: AntonieBlack

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/08/08 01:37 PM

Wow..!?!! Listening to many of you guys talk makes me feel sad.
I DON'T MEAN THAT TO BE DISRESPECTFUL TO ANY OF YOU.

It's just that where I'm from, the school i attend is reagarded as one of the best in the surrounding areas. But after reading this forum, it makes me wonder if TKD was the right decision--for my area. I've been doing TKD for 3.5 years now and i'm no where near any of you as far as knowledge. Probably not in skill either. Finding these threads has been an eye opening experience.

I thank you all for being insightful.

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/24/08 11:26 PM

i thought the episode did great justice to TKD despite failure to mention the ITF at all. I enjoyed the "Professor" who didn't take it easy on them. The guy who told bill duff he needs to lose weight was hilarious. Bill got KO'd. Jason twisted his knee. It showed that TKD is not as easy as it looks.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/25/08 03:47 PM

Quote:

i thought the episode did great justice to TKD despite failure to mention the ITF at all. I enjoyed the "Professor" who didn't take it easy on them. The guy who told bill duff he needs to lose weight was hilarious. Bill got KO'd. Jason twisted his knee. It showed that TKD is not as easy as it looks.

It did not do its history (very inaccurate) or its self defense applications justice at all. I did like the idea of the "champion" sparring both of them instead of just one,but the matches were a joke, and NO martial art is easy !

VDJ

P.S. Fight Quest has proved to be a much better and more realistic show than HW.

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/26/08 04:44 PM

i don't mean the history. history happened, but history is in the past. as a whole it was an enjoyable show. sure it left things out. but it showed the spirit. as for the SD aspect i agree that it should have shown practical applications. I guess they were going for the full olympic sparring feel. if the sparring matches allowed for more realistic fighting we could see more of the potential. But the practical stuff doesn't really come into the match. they wanted to "prepare" them for the sparring, rather than show the SD techniques. if they had taught them all sorts of one-step sparring techniques for instance. they wouldn't have used a single one of them in the fight. as it was they even said in the locker room prior to the fight tht they didn't even know how to score a point. and to address the people who are saying the security guys showed no realistic self defense techniques, they were putting on a show. i would't be surprised if they were on their school's demo team. don't be deceived. they have extensive training in their field, including judo, tae kwon do, and hap ki do. Please don't think that i'm defending the WTF guys. i practice pre-sine wave ITF myself. (PS the guy who called bill duff fat is my hero)

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/26/08 08:12 PM

The episode did not do ANY justice for the art at all, just gave tkd bashers more reason to bash. I know exactly what this show is about, and by neglecting its history only feeds ignorance to those who are already ignorant about the art. I am also very aware of what the "security" officers of the SK Govn'r are trained in, please do not be so naive to think that was who was actually showing you the "moves" on the show. You can bet your bottom dollar that it was the national demo team. I said it in my last post, thus far Fight Quest has put Human Weapon to shame in content and quality. I hope that they will soon show TKD as I am very curious as to how they will portray the art on that show !

VDJ

Posted by: EvenRats

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/26/08 08:17 PM

There's nothing wrong with WTF guys. It's just that they lack the original self-defense applications that makes the art more well-rounded.

Recently a WTF red belt joined our class as a ITF white belt. He already knows most of the kicks, and it didn't take him long to learn the basic patterns(saju-jirugi, saju-maki). He also kiaps alot.

I had mixed feelings after watching the Human Weapon episode. The whole ancient taekyyon business made me cringe. I liked how Bill punches the professor as an act of instinct and then later gets KO'ed(REVENGE!).

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/27/08 03:12 PM

i'm not trying to make you change your opinion. i understand everything you're saying and respect your view.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/27/08 04:03 PM

I also enjoyed the show, from an entertainment standpoint. I was disappointed in the fact, that when people watch it, they will get the wrong idea about TKD (from my standpoint) or only 1 view out of 3 possible ways to look at TKD. The fact that they made a link to TaeKyon, without mentioning the Japanses Karate link, makes the show suspect or even flawed from the start. They further lost me when they concentrated on the sport version of TKD & then ADDED HwaRangDo to show how Koreans or those in Korea learn SD. Like VDJ said, they just help to further diminish TKD as a MA & a method of SD.
Now I know history is just that history. I didn't need them to mention the ITF, Gen Choi etc. but they could have at least stated that TKD was developed after WWII as a military fighting art & eventually evolved into an olympic sport, with many followers! jmho

Posted by: VDJ

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/27/08 07:28 PM

Quote:

I also enjoyed the show, from an entertainment standpoint. I was disappointed in the fact, that when people watch it, they will get the wrong idea about TKD (from my standpoint) or only 1 view out of 3 possible ways to look at TKD. The fact that they made a link to TaeKyon, without mentioning the Japanses Karate link, makes the show suspect or even flawed from the start. They further lost me when they concentrated on the sport version of TKD & then ADDED HwaRangDo to show how Koreans or those in Korea learn SD. Like VDJ said, they just help to further diminish TKD as a MA & a method of SD.
Now I know history is just that history. I didn't need them to mention the ITF, Gen Choi etc. but they could have at least stated that TKD was developed after WWII as a military fighting art & eventually evolved into an olympic sport, with many followers! jmho

Yes, Yes and yes. Leaving out the Shotokan connection was a terrible thing to do. As mentioned, I too enjoyed the episode for entertainment purposes, but in NO way did this put TKD in a positive light!

VDJ

Posted by: dicen

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 01/30/08 12:25 AM

Quote:

Slightly related theme here... a new show called Fight Quest has started in the USA. It is a similar, if not the same, idea as HW. It is suppose to focus less on the history and more on the training (than HW).

I was checking their schedule, and they have a Hapkido episode coming up. Should be interesting.

I've watched all of these shows, and I gotta say its better than Human weapon in terms of content. They're actaully showing them some basic techniques to use and the Matches at the end are better than human weapons. The Kali and Mexican Boxing episodes are my favorites.

The tight part is that they are actually trained for a week instead of traveling to different parts of the country learning the history and propoganda of the art. Though some bits and pieces of that stuff does end up on the show.

Posted by: von1

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 02/04/08 11:45 AM

Hi people might say I am new to this forum. I have been reading the taekwon forum for over a year but never participated in a single discussion until now. Just want to say from my perspective, (after reading this forum over 1yr. period) most of what people say is taekwondo bashing is realy ment to be wtf bashing. Flyboy you got to me with your rediculess coments about wtf. you do not know what you speak! People who talk like you have done the damage to our art! I would be amazed if you have even been to a wtf school.not trying to make this personal but your coments are rediculus and damaging to our beloved art. Want to clear the air here as a practicing wtf,er. Yes we train with our hands, yes we train self def. yes we know how to punch and punch with power, yes we have takedowns, the reason we spare w.o punches allowed is to elevate and perfect our kicking skills to the highest possible level.You can;t work on your kicking skills as well when you have a fist in your face. You cant perfect your kicking skills as well when you are being taken down. Our sparing is not ment to be real fighting ITS A TRAINING METHOD USED TO PERFECT THE HARDEST ASPECT TO MASTER OF WHAT WE DO- KICKING! The pholosophy is that punching in a real situation will come much more instinctual and natural and is the easyest and most natural part of self defence , and yes we train with hands up and are extreemly good punchers and blockers, although admit that many people do spare with them down but I asure you we know the difference between sparing and defending ourselfs.Our sparing is only part of our training, what is causing the rift and desention in our art is that one organization has out marketed the other and is causing many negetive feelings. people are trying to justify what they are doing well by trying to find fault with what others are doing. I have great respect for the ATF and others but this comes easy for me and other WTF"s because we are confident in what we are doing.I know for a fact that many of my WTF peers could enter an ATF spareing match and knock many fighters out with punchs. And I also realize that many of your peers could enter a WTF match and win with your feet. It drives me crazy how we taekwondo"ers are our own worst enemies.Please stop looking for fault with others and focus on what you are doing well I am sure your training has much to offer as does mine,
Taekwondo Hon mo kwon taught by master Sang Sup Kil 10TH degree one of the highest black belts in the world look him up. when you speak like you do you are disrespecting many great people and doing great harm to our beloved art, not to mention it sounds ignorant. WTF, ATF who cares its about being the best you can be both have many great things to offer. Please do not watch some competition and think you have insight into what, how, and why, people train. You and many others are way off base in youe assessment of WTF training, not better not worse, just different.

Posted by: von1

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 02/04/08 02:17 PM

Want to apologize to you flyboy for directing all my frustration at you. There are many others to blame. I am most disappointed in my own taekwondo peers. We keep the myths going ourselves with disinformation and lack of unitity, divided we fall.

Posted by: JimmyTKD

Re: TKD on Human Weapon - 02/10/08 08:59 PM

Did Bill Duff eat the old Bill Duff or something?

TKD on Human Weapon