Gradings and Doboks

Posted by: matxtx

Gradings and Doboks - 08/23/07 06:13 PM

Hello.
A few post about gradings going on so how about the idea of no gradings at all just training?Or if there are gradings make them more like BJJ where you actualy prove your worth.?
Would that improve TKD and kill off McDojos or make no difference?
Where does the history of grading begin in TKD?
It started in the military so were they grading then or just training?
Did gradings come out of the arts TKD was influenced by?

And also I was reading an interview of an old Korean instuctor in the armyin the 50's and how they trained in military gear not Doboks.Makes more sense especialy for some techniques like the turning kick which were designed for steel boots hence toes back..ball of foot...which with boots on turns to nice small hard striking surface.Also its closer to clothes you would wear.
So how about no Doboks too?
Where did Doboks come into TKD and do they have any use ?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/23/07 06:25 PM

Wearing a dobok or not wearing a dobok I don't think will affect change anything. And who decide what actually is worth it to pass? If you have a substandard Instructor then you will have substandard students. If that systems is based upon the Instructor's skills then if they meet his requirements would not they still be worth it? In that system?

If it were up to me I would do away with testing and perhaps belts as well. Testing I believe should be in class and done where you don't have time to prepare but are called upon out of the blue to perform said techniques. If you can repeatedly do this then you advance whether it is a belt or an acknowledgment or just moving on to the next set of techniques. No prearranged test or belt is going to make you effective at protecting yourself or being able to perform techniques. Application and using them will and I don't need a belt to do that.

I'd rather not have a uniform either and would prefer what is comfortable to wear. However I understand standards and accept that.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/23/07 06:53 PM

Quote:

Hello. A few post about gradings going on so how about the idea of no gradings at all just training?Or if there are gradings make them more like BJJ where you actualy prove your worth.? Would that improve TKD and kill off McDojos or make no difference? Where does the history of grading begin in TKD? It started in the military so were they grading then or just training? Did gradings come out of the arts TKD was influenced by? And also I was reading an interview of an old Korean instuctor in the armyin the 50's and how they trained in military gear not Doboks.Makes more sense especialy for some techniques like the turning kick which were designed for steel boots hence toes back..ball of foot...which with boots on turns to nice small hard striking surface.Also its closer to clothes you would wear. So how about no Doboks too? Where did Doboks come into TKD and do they have any use ?



TKD DoBoks come from it roots, which is Karate. In the military, many taught & trained in DoBoks as well as uniforms. GM Rhee Ki Ha was in the military & rarely wore a military uniform, as he was picked to teach. I have historic photos with training in DoBoks, which were more like Karate Gis back then.
The gradings also came from the Karate roots. Yes they did test in the military & if you look at Gen. Choi's textbooks, they contain the military training & testing regiment. He was in charge of TKD training for the military.
The training in the military started in the fall of 1954, with the establishment of the Oh Do Kwan. At that time, when they saluted, they said Tae Kwon.

I like the example of testing students in class, without notice. This has all been ruined in TKD & other MAs as well, by the commercialism. Having real tests requiring students to prove themselves would help TKD training & kill of McDojangs. jmho
Posted by: Andymcc

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/23/07 07:40 PM

Doboks: My feelings is they are very necessary. Something about putting that dobok on, it puts you "in the role"... if we all were just out there in our sweat pants, not only would it not look good, but it would reduce the formalization of the class and add an element of casualness. When we put our doboks on we assume the role in our minds. I think it is an important part of training in a class, a mental part.

GRADINGS: I do think this is also important. Years ago there was a local school here called "American Martial Arts" and I knew somebody who trained there for a few years. There was no belts, it was just training. They did not do well commercially and went under after a while. I have no idea of the quality of instruction there, although we all know that a school often does not succeed or fail based on quality of instruction. But from what I could tell, having no belts was like going to school but having no grades. I think everybody needs to feel they can idnentify with a level, they have a tangible "reward" for achieving a level, and I think this motivates many people, sadly sometimes even more than the skill behind what that belt represents.
So, there is good and bad that comes with belts, but ultimately I think it is not something that can be done away with. Just my thoughts.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/23/07 08:16 PM

Quote:

Testing I believe should be in class and done where you don't have time to prepare but are called upon out of the blue to perform said techniques. If you can repeatedly do this then you advance whether it is a belt or an acknowledgment or just moving on to the next set of techniques.



Way back when, the late 70's I believe (before I started), I was told my GM had a method closer to this. You didn't have a formal test, but there were ranks. Everyone had their name on a plaque on the wall arranged by rank. One day you would come in and just notice your plaque had been moved up. I like it from a purely MA point of view. But, that kind of system tends to lose more business. ( at least from what I've seen with American attitudes ) People want those structures and colors and goals to feel they're progressing.(and I guess to gauge if they're progressing faster/slower than the guy next to them) Just seems to promote slightly higher student retention... talking business here. I hate it, but you have to balance the two; not an easy task sometimes.
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/24/07 01:31 PM

Hi ITFUnity.
Do you know what typical grading,say a 1st Dan grading,consisted of back then when they were in the military?
Also do you know how a typical lesson went?

Yes.I like the idea of on the spot 'gradings'.
I dont like the way people teach and correct the body motion just in terms of getting the next grading and getting marks in a grade.

The Doboks I dont think matter much.
I can see how they get you into the feeling of doing TKD though I dont think they should be needed to do that.You should be ready to intensly explode and fight back at anytime, anywhere.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/24/07 08:19 PM

There was almost daily practice. Training emphasized forging & conditioning. The fighting was tough & for 1st dan you needed 8 patterns, ChonJi to HwaRang. The test included 3, 2 & 1 step sparring, power (breaking) & fighting, along with SD & foot technique sparring. This is circ early 1960s.
Please remember that training & testing varied by Kwans. However, much of the military training was overseen by Gen. Choi & the Oh Do Kwan, with Nam tae Hi assting as the director. He made it to the rank of Colonel. Only one other Oh Do Kwan member made it to general. That was Gen Woo Jong Lim. This was because of the eventual political interference caused by the miltary coup in 1961. Only the rank of the Oh Do kwan & Chung Do kwan was accepted without a re-test, which was the source of many problems politically between the Kwans & the leaders.
Ji Do Kwan test was made up of 3 & 1 steps, breaking, forms & a lot of fighting. It was said that they had to beat 3 champions to promote. That is why they claim that many of the early best Korean fighters were from the Ji Do kwan. These members were very influential in setting up the current fighting rules adopted by the WTF.
The aforementioned Gen Woo Jong Lim was responsible for the ITF tournament rules.
Posted by: matxtx

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/26/07 12:37 PM

By conditioning I pressume you mean of knuckles etc AND fitness?
Fitness is another thing overlooked in McDojos.Well I guess everything over looked haha.

How come no Choong-Mu?Or do you mean as well as.

Do you know what the sparring/fighting rules were?
If it was full contact,were low kicks allowed etc.

Was there much padwork or bagwork?
Posted by: trevek

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/26/07 02:30 PM

I think gradings with regulation doboks are important. If it was left as an open affair you'd risk it turning into a fashion show, distracting for the examiner and potentially disheartening for those students who can't afford the flashy gear.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/26/07 05:09 PM

Quote:

By conditioning I pressume you mean of knuckles etc AND fitness?
How come no Choong-Mu?Or do you mean as well as.
Do you know what the sparring/fighting rules were?
If it was full contact,were low kicks allowed etc.
Was there much padwork or bagwork?



By conditioning & FORGING that is what I mean - plus the knocking exercises, where you bang your arms, legs, shins & hands together with a partner.
Since in the early days, there were only 8 Gup levels, so they only went up to HwaRang. ChoongMu, the 2nd pattern desined, after HwaRang, with the help of Col. Nam Tae Hi, was then performed at the BB level.
I am not sure what the sparring rules were. I think they were very similiar to the Karate stop matches. At some point, the Jido Kwan went to the full contact, with the vests & contiuous fighting. I am not sure of when the ITF fighting rules were implemented, but they were created by Gen Woo Jong Lim.
Pad (crude pads) use was I think used in training, but I am not sure of the tests.
Posted by: 2old4this

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/27/07 11:49 AM

I came late in life to MA and TKD in particular. I in my ignorance thought that I would be graded in my class by my instructor. I also thought the process would be much stricter than it appears to be, I expected to fail a grading once or twice.. I wasn't sure if the grading process would be formal or not. I expected to have to spar during the grading which doesn't always seem to be the case. I find that my gradings are based around a training camp of sorts where we practice sparing, paterns and measuring up. THis process probably allows the instructor the chance to see that you have mastered the requirements for the grade and that you are comfortable demonstrating sparing techniques etc before taking the formal elements of the grading. TKD is not what I expected, MS is not what I expected.In a good way yes, in others less so. If I had to fight my way up the grades I doubt I would get very far, but a bit of me wishes that I did have to. I don't don't go to a McDojo but my instructor does understand the limitations of his students and has indicated where I can make most advancement in my TKD. He does want me to do competitions but realises that as time goes by perhaps my spirit is more willing than my body. I do get very frightened when the blue,red and black belt 20 year old let rip in sparring. I honestly don't think I have the martial spirit.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/27/07 03:16 PM

It depends on the school. I knew a TKD instructor who would never pass a red belt on the first try; just on principle. I also know schools that never fail anyone. We have at differnt times required sparring and other times not. I also saw that if you make everyone spar at every test the injury rate increases dramatically. When I started there was a saying that you couldn't get your BB without the minimum 3 injuries. Now, I just don't see this as good business or training philosophy. Neither do my instructors. So it has changed.

I've failed plenty of my students. But I also have some that have never failed a test. I don't think you should rate or compare yourself in this manner. There is no reason you should fail any test, unless you were unprepared or just performed below your level/potential.

As for martial spirit: that's something YOU have to forge on your own. It's simple: go to sparring every time and face those fighters you're worried about facing. Eventually the worry goes away and you improve. Then you gain confidence because you know you pushed yourself through that barrier; not because your instructor forced you through it. It's a process and a journey you have to take. The belts and grades and your preconceptions before you started are just baggage you have to lose during that journey.

JMHO, of course.

Posted by: GizmoTKD

Re: Gradings and Doboks - 08/31/07 07:46 AM

Gradings - I have nothing against grades. On the other hand, for me it should be more like the system I've heard of in some old Aikido schools. The testing was only for people who had no direct contact with the master on the daily basis. The direct students were simply graded depending on the level of skills shown during daily classes. I don't really need to test people who have been with me for 5-10 years, seeing them in hundreds of classes, number of tournaments, performing both in class and under pressure, as I know their strong and weak points inside out.

Doboks - I like the view of a class in doboks, but I understand the people who prefer to train in say T-shirts. Doboks are a must in our school for official events, also all our instructors are required to teach in doboks. On the other hand - I saw many schools who were relaxed in uniform requirements and very strict on the level of hard work in class, and vice versa. In the early days of Karate, they also did use civilian clothing - I remember old pictures of students practicing shirtless in shorts or trousers.