Hands up?

Posted by: IwasHere123

Hands up? - 07/28/07 07:46 PM

I dont know if this has been posted before, but why do people in tournaments never seem to put their hands up?
Posted by: MastaFighta

Re: Hands up? - 07/28/07 10:12 PM

It's probably just a bad habit they picked up.

I used to do the same thing in sparring (I never competed). I guess it was because I wasn't focused so much on my guard as I was on attacking.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Hands up? - 07/29/07 01:04 AM

Many TKD tournament fighters do not keep their hands up because the WTF rules do not allow hand strikes to the face. Most fighters are quick enough to bring their hands up to block kicks, but keeping them up to defend against hand strikes is unnecessary and therefor a waste of energy.

In my opinion, WTF tournament sparring rules have done more to ruin TKD as a practical martial art than anything since the advent of the handgun.
Posted by: IwasHere123

Re: Hands up? - 07/29/07 01:56 AM

Because as i was watching this compiled video clips of TKD sparring matches, most of the time when people got hit in the head, it could have been avoided if they had put their hands up.
Posted by: Christie

Re: Hands up? - 07/30/07 01:31 PM

As fileboy said it's an unnecessary waste of energy in TKD sport fighting. A kick to the head (while not slow) does come at you slower then a shot to the head from an upper extremity does and so one can bring their arms up and have a good chance of blocking the kick.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Hands up? - 07/30/07 02:52 PM

And then there is the aspect that throwing continual kicks is draining. Just think, when fighters (MMA, boxers, etc.) are punching and as they get tired or fatigued their hands start to drop. The majority can realize this themselves or hear coaching from their corner to bring their hands back up. Now perhaps this was the case in TKD that eventually it evolved to what we see now that many do not raise their hands at all. In my case when we TKD spar we are encouraged to keep our hands up, and we are WTF, but as you get tired as kicking with your legs is far more tiring then punching, that I start to drop my hands and then I hear from the outside to put them back up.

In fact with many of our kicking drill classes we are told to keep our hands up even when going to the back of the line. If one person drops their hands then the whole group has to doing monkey jumps or clapping push-ups. Of course for many school that are just sports orientated that may not be an issue but for a school such as ours that is more geared towards self defense, hands up is a must and is practiced frequently. Punching across the gym ensuring that your jab hand comes back quickly to protect the jaw while the power hand is up blocking the side of your head. These and many other drills just hammers that home.

And don't kid yourself about it just being TKD or just WTF. I have seen ITF people like this and have seen others in Karate too. It depends on the person, where they train, etc.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: Hands up? - 07/30/07 04:30 PM

Not keeping your hands up is a fundemental tactic of the "rockhead" defense.

If you happen to be a rockhead, you are lucky. Blocking with your head is a realtively easy defense to master.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hands up? - 07/31/07 11:51 AM

This also bugs me (secondary to limp arms): hands up but arms folded vertically against the chest - like an extra layer of armor. Reminds me of T-rex arms...can't really do anything in that position.
Posted by: Kimo2007

Re: Hands up? - 07/31/07 01:48 PM

Quote:

hands up but arms folded vertically against the chest - like an extra layer of armor. Reminds me of T-rex arms...can't really do anything in that position.





Not sure what you are saying, what position do you put your arms/hands in for fighting stance?
Posted by: trevek

Re: Hands up? - 07/31/07 03:31 PM

I think I know what's meant. It's like keeping your arms close to the chest when you play lazer-quest, so they can't score. Not really practical for fighting tho'.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Hands up? - 08/01/07 10:27 PM

Another thought: the WTF prohibition on hand strikes to the head is one reason why TKD fighters often fall down during matches. Forbidden from employing techniques most appropriate for close range (i.e. hand techniques), TKD fighters are forced to kick when they are far to close to do so. The result is they lose their balance and fall, risking serious injuries.
Posted by: GriffyGriff

Re: Hands up? - 08/01/07 11:00 PM

Quote:

Forbidden from employing techniques most appropriate for close range (i.e. hand techniques), TKD fighters are forced to kick when they are far to close to do so. The result is they lose their balance and fall, risking serious injuries.




Hahaha very funny!

How Serious do you feel that those injuries are?
Is it as bad as running with Scissors?
Posted by: trevek

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 04:19 AM

Actually, that's a good point. How many TKD people are taught to break-fall? Landing on an elbow hurts, as does hitting the ground with your head.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 12:03 PM

Most TKD practitioners do learn break falls. However, if they were allowed to use their hands at close range they would still fall a lot less often.
Posted by: GriffyGriff

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 04:31 PM

Maybe someone could design "Sparring Training Wheels" which would help them get their confidence and balance 1st, then take the wheels off when they are ready.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 04:49 PM

fileboy, I don't know learning breakfalls is as common as you think. I've rarely seen a good one used (except mine of course:-)).

Griff, don't give them ideas or it'll be a new Olympic sport!
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 05:24 PM

Quote:

fileboy, I don't know learning breakfalls is as common as you think. I've rarely seen a good one used (except mine of course:-)).




Most definitely learn these. How else do you learn if you've been swept, tossed or tripped? Even so much as incorporated into our one-step sparring self defense patterns.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 05:51 PM

Perhaps I am overestimating how often break falls are taught in TKD. I started training in an ITF school 25 years ago, and at that it time such things were pretty standard. It may well be that as TKD has morphed from martial art to martial sport, break fall training has been abandoned. An unfortunate development.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Hands up? - 08/02/07 06:28 PM

If you don't train break falling then yes, that is unfortunate.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hands up? - 08/03/07 12:08 PM

Fighting stance I use & teach is similar to a boxer's - fists in front but not touching the chest.

...but I do karate so we use our hands a lot more.

BTW, I once met a TKD guy in the orthopedic clinic (my broken wrist, his broken forearm). He said that both radius & ulna were broken by a kick. Seems that his arm hung low & was caught between the kick & his own hip...oww.
Posted by: IwasHere123

Re: Hands up? - 08/03/07 03:33 PM

Whats break fall?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Hands up? - 08/03/07 03:44 PM

Quote:

Whats break fall?




Joke right? This is a falling technique that is learned so that you fall correctly. You usually start at the basics which is falling forward and you start on your knees, progress to horse stance then standing and then jumping in the air. They you learn backward similar. Then you learn from the sides progressing to higher levels.

In all you are tucking your chin and staying relaxed as if you are stiff this is where injuries occur. You are slapping down with your hands or hand if side falling. The impact of the ground goes through your arm and not your hands; the more surface area the better. When slapping down in front of you your hands form a triangle and you turn your head to the side while arching your butt into the air so as not to collide your nose or groin; landing on forearms and feet. I did a post about this years ago that I went into more depth should you care to look for it.

Hope that makes sense. These are skills that are required if you are tripped, swept, thrown or tossed ... with all of these practiced as well. Understand you can still get hurt but these will lessen the damage if done right. If in a fight and land on your face or back or side, without these the fight could end whereas with these you may be injured but should be able to carry on with limited injuries.
Posted by: Mandolynn

Re: Hands up? - 08/04/07 01:52 AM

Quote:

Because as i was watching this compiled video clips of TKD sparring matches, most of the time when people got hit in the head, it could have been avoided if they had put their hands up.




The kick to the head could have also been avoided had they stepped away correctly or countered properly. Hands up might add some padding between the head and kick, but hands up or down their head is still in the path of the kick, which is definitely not where you want it to be.

I'm not defending completely dropping your guard, because with hands hanging down you can forget about reverse punching, but there is no way I'm keeping my hands all the way up to my face. That leaves the bottom part of my torso open and plenty of room for my opponent to get round kicks in under my elbows. And considering round kicks get more points than any other technique thats a horrible guard.
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Hands up? - 08/06/07 06:09 PM

true...the best place to be is not in line of attack but often it's faster to move your hands (I do & teach both movement w/ hands as insurance).

I don't know who's teaching you but hands up @ head-level isn't the best position. I recommend hands @ shoulder level. It leaves very little room for rib-shots & protects the head. You should also learn knee/shin blocks for low-line kicks.

Final word, I'll never fight w/ arms hanging down.
Posted by: Mandolynn

Re: Hands up? - 08/11/07 01:35 AM

No one is teaching me a guard like that, nor have I ever seen any TKD instructor teach it, but so many MAs from other arts slam anything that doesn't have a guard that high. It drives me crazy. If they don't fight Olympic TKD, they don't know what they are talking about, so they have no right criticizing hand position. All it comes down to is someone not being able to separate the sport aspect of TKD from the whole art because of them thinking their art is better, or more realistic or some crap like that so they pick apart things like this that any decent TKD student wouldn't do in a self defense situation, but the point is completely mute because they can't/won't recognize the fact that sports have rules that become adapted to most effectively in the first place.

Olympic TKD is a game, and when you see fighters in the Olympics who fight with their arms at their sides it is because they have found that that is their best way to play it.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Hands up? - 08/14/07 11:50 PM

I agree, people nic pick this too much. In every combat sport you see many fighters who do not keep their guards up. My opinion it is personal choice.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Hands up? - 08/15/07 03:14 PM

True Tek, but there's a difference between having a low guard and no guard, like some competitors do.