Posted by: Z498
Best Way?!?!? - 05/06/07 04:27 AM
I was wondering as a Black Belt I have many moves if I ever need to defend myself from someone at school or somewhere else. But I was wondering what would be the best technique to take someone down in a fight at school. Someone who dosen't know martial arts but just uses fists, I think a double jab then a backhand followed up with some fast roundhouse,push,and side kicks, but I just want to know some other peoples opinions.
Also what if the person is alot taller then you, what would be the best course of action.
Posted by: Z498
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/09/07 05:08 PM
Thanks alot dude I was thinking that! I was wondering though, when would be an excellent time to start kicking.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/10/07 12:40 PM
when the oppurtunity arises. If you have stunned someone with a good punching combination, then a kick to the body, groin or knee can be very effective, particularly front kicks or roundhouse kicks. I wouldn't advise kicking to the head unless the opponent has fallen to the floor, in which case why are you hanging around- RUN!
Bottom line is, you will rarely have enough space in a real self defense situation to use kicks, because if you did, you should be escaping. There are a few circumstances where you can, and they are generally after creating a bit of space using punches.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/10/07 01:04 PM
Okay I will give you a counter attack that I gave the guy in the tournament forum. The first counter we learn in Olympic style TKD is a simple and probably the best counter.
If you find yourself in a school yard fight and you really just want to defend yourself and get away.
Wait for you opponents attack. Step back once then immediately counter with either a rear punch, or a rear leg roundhouse kick.
The key is to step back out of range as soon as you see the guy move his shoulders. Everyone must move their shoulders when attacking, punching or kicking. Once you see the shoulders move, step back, right before they finish their atack, you counter with an attack of your own, to catch them off balance and score.
Now I recommend a kick to the groin, stomach, liver. Basically a kick. because usually school yard bullies do not expect their opponents to know TKD. And if your a TKD stylist you know how hard a kick can be especially when your using shoes.
For a more elaborate description go to the tournament forum and check out my response.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/12/07 06:47 AM
Lower right side of the stomach. It can be hit with a round kick to the side of the stomach or a straight back kick directly in front of the body. I practice with the back kick, there is a kick boxer by the name of Benny "the" Uriquez who is famous for his trade mark back kick to the liver. This guy fought in the 70's early 80's.
If you plan to use a roundhouse kick then you must make sure you kick beneath the floating ribs, and watch out for elbows.
Personally I aim with my back kick. Um, for those ITF stylist that would be the spinning back kick to you guys.
Lately I've been practicing liver shot with skip/hop kicks, such as a round kick or side kick, so far not much luck.
Posted by: schanne
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/22/07 04:28 PM
If you were a BB you would not be asking this types of question. After 4-5 years of training you would know....
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/22/07 05:21 PM
Unfortunately Schanne that is not necessarily true. I'm guessing as this is on the TKD forum that we have to understand that many school don't get into depth of this and only touch on it, and then if you are not there for those days you really don't get it at all. And unless you are training it all of the time then forget about muscle memory or remembering how to do it. Most only require black belts to know their pattern, sparring and breaking technique plus some basics.
Quote:
But I was wondering what would be the best technique to take someone down in a fight at school.
I don't care if the person knows how to punch or not, the best technique to take somebody down in a fight it to get in close, clinch up with hands behind their head (don't interlock fingers), forearms tight to their neck (carota artery), pull their head to your chest and deliver knees while at the same time moving their body from side to side trying to unbalance them so you are able to trip or toss them to the ground; if you control the head you are controlling the body. Then you can take side mount and then top mount and deliver some elbows, forearms and fists (ground'n pound). Or just get up and get out of there or get ready to further fight.
After clinching up you can also pull them forward with a big unexpected jerk so that they have to sprawl and if they don't know how then they land on their face. In this position you can use repeated elbows to their shoulders, neck or back or you can use knees to their head or shoulders. You have options such as shoot off to the side, use a friction grip to pull their back to your stomach and you go to your back while at the same time using your legs to lock them in and then applying the RNR (Rear Naked Choke). Or after repeated knees to the head or shoulders, slip an arm under their neck under their opposite arm pit and lock this up and then roll yourself and them into an Anaconda Choke. Or just stand up and leave or if have to prepare to knock them down when they get up.
Can you finish this standing up, perhaps but there is no sure way to get them down, not like close up fighting. Now how you get to this position to clinch that is a whole other story. Be first what every you do. Use momentum and surprise and aggressiveness on your side. Don't be afraid to take one or more.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/22/07 10:56 PM
Dereck your my hero. My entire fighting model is now based on getting in close and applying the MT clinch and ending it from there with knee's, elbows, and head butts.
However, once I off balance and take them down, I would not mount them, I'd stomp on them, mounting them is a little to much UFC for me, I still like to get ghetto on their a$$es. Hehe, but not ghetto enough to the point were I take their wallet...
Personally I am very afraid to choke someone out. Although I practice it and know how to apply all sorts of chokes, I am afraid to crush someones windpipe or hold on to long to the point of brain damage.
Geoff Thompson says you should never hold on more than 3 seconds after three seconds of unconsciousness you risk brain damage.
Posted by: Kimo2007
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/23/07 11:30 AM
These fight tactics are great for sport combat, but not self defense.
In self defense the last thing you want to do is get tangled up with someone, that just makes you vulnerable to a multitude of things.
Also, in self defense, you don't allow an opponent to square up and mount any defense, you use the element of surprise and dispatch them as quickly as you can and get free.
If you are squaring up with opponent, you are in a fight not really self defense, if you are taking on the school yard bully in a fight, that's not what I can self defense. (and yes a jury would convict you if you used a choke in a fight and did serious damage, the kids in school might think they "have" to fight but a jury would say he could walk away, or use reasonable force)
Just wanted to clarify.
Now to your question, if you are squaring off with a bully, and you are sure no one is going to join in while your taking him to the ground, then the clinch tactics are highly effective.
When fighting a non MA, one thing to keep in mind is most people don't have any idea how to deal with kicks, fists sure most normal boys can, but kicks will often throw off most non MA's even if just a second so you can follow up.
Also remember, non MA's are not going to follow any rules like students in a class, especially once the fear of loss sets in, they will go wild and they run right throw a light jab, so commit to your techniques, whatever they are, don't punch them in the face, cave their skull in (not literally I just mean hit them so hard they either drop, or lose all interest in fighting you).
My father taught me many years ago, the second most important thing about a fight is make sure no matter what, who ever fought you or watched you fight, will never ever want to fight you again. Period.
Posted by: Z498
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/23/07 08:48 PM
THANKS ALOT everyone, except for someone who couldn't give constructive criticism (won't say any names they know who they are). Think a hook kick would be good to their head?
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/24/07 05:19 AM
You may need to clarify exactly what you mean by a hook kick. If you mean the kick which comes out like a side kick then flicks at the knee, striking with the heel- then I find it a very weak kick, and not very useful in any kind of fighting situation outside of light contact sparring, indeed I probably wouldn't even score it if I were a judge.
If you mean the circular kick, where the toes are pointing upwards and the leg is swung in an arc-like motion, then I was always taught that the only effective use for the kick is as a block, although I have to say I doubt it's usefulness in that regard as well. In ITF TKD, the outward vertical kick is the offensive variation of the kick, but again I find it a somewhat weak kick.
My advice when it comes to kicking, would be to stick to the powerful "big" kicks:
-Roundhouse (turning kick)\
-side kick
-front kick
-back kick (and variations)
-perhaps even a reverse turning kick, also called a spinning wheel kick sometimes, or a spinning heel kick. This one, while being very powerful, is a risky one, unless you are very fast with it, and remember to pull back the toes so you hit with your heel!
Posted by: EarlWeiss
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/24/07 08:02 AM
FWIW, I think most of the advice here is CR*P. I suggest you check out books by Peyton Quin, "Real Fighting" or "The bouncer's guide to barroom Brawling' You could also check out the article on my website "The 10 commandments of street survival"
http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/commandments.html2 biggest bad advice princiole espoused here.
1. Confusing sparring ideas with street defense.
2. Waitng for your opponent to attack first.
If you reread the stuff I addressesd above you will see that the defense starts long before your attacker (NOTE he is an attacker, not an opponent) initiates an attack.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 05/24/07 10:43 AM
Perhaps a little harsh Earl. Sparring and street defense however I agree are two different animals but many cross overs. I believe that sparring especially clinching and grappling sparring are more realistic ways of training, but that is my own opinion. Waiting for your opponent to attack being wrong I have to agree and did above when I noted:
Quote:
Be first what every you do. Use momentum and surprise and aggressiveness on your side. Don't be afraid to take one or more.
There must be commitment and swift action. I also however also see in your statement where you say defense starts long before your attacker initiates an attack to not only attack first but also be aware of the situation and your surrounds and your other outs. I also like your 10 Commandments.
Posted by: von1
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 03:40 PM
quote
Thanks alot dude I was thinking that! I was wondering though, when would be an excellent time to start kicking.
end quote
I believe this is not a question from a BB! this is a question from some young kid that is thinking about confronting his bully.
Then he go"s on about how do I take him to the ground, this tells us he probably has never even been in a fighting confrontation before so all this advice that he is getting is probably not going to help much. All the advice that was given could be good for a trained practitioner and even though we could debate what was good advice and what was not all of it could be applied by the right person, but I think this kid may be doomed if he tries most of it being that know one can even demonstraight it for him. Plus when the time comes he will probably be scared sh--less.
Posted by: Zombie Zero
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 04:02 PM
Asking for advice on how to win a schoolyard fight is not allowed on FA.com.
Same goes for giving advice on schoolyard fights.
EDIT: I think Von1 hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: TKD_X
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 04:16 PM
Seeing as you are a black belt i assume that your hypothetical situation is strictly self-defense. in that case, you should get the guy off you and get out, that is if it doesn't get broken up by a teacher first. by black belt you should know how to avoid school fights completely.
Posted by: Novum
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 04:23 PM
Intimidate the guy or say whatever it takes to make him feel better about himself and not want to fight anymore. No one squares off with you unless its a mutually consensual fight.
Posted by: Novum
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 04:51 PM
Maybe you misunderstand the intent then, the reason to intimidate would be to avoid the fight and walk away. Not everyone responds to logic and understanding in the face of adversity.
Posted by: TKD_X
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 05:12 PM
so basically what you are saying is that by trying to scare the person who already thinks he/she has the abilities to beat you up, you will be able to end the situation without violence? if they have the intent to do physical harm upon you, a confrontational response will perhaps inflame the situation more than it already is. with all due respect, i have to ask you: do you know what intimidation means? it is a tactic that uses fear and/or threatening language/actions to achieve personal goals. intimidation may end the confrontation if you are the bully and the other person is the martial artist.
Posted by: Novum
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 05:17 PM
If you can gauge the situation and the person (which I've found that most martial artists who spend any time living what they practice can) then you can determine which route to take. The frat guy who walks up to you and tries to punk you with his bravado is different than the guy who wants to hurt you. Sometimes all it takes is giving the attitude right back, sometimes it's obvious that the only way to diffuse the situation is to stroke the guy's ego and let it be done. Don't get hostile at me, I'm giving advice on how to avoid a fight, with all due respect =p.
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: Best Way?!?!? - 03/25/08 05:26 PM
Mostly for the OP, just partially for Novum----
Well I will say you can't fight fire with fire. If we're talking about your typical bully type he's probably already doing the intimidating or why would you be asking for help. As a very general rule, bullies pick targets they're pretty confident they can stomp fairly easlily. "Mad dogging" him is unlikely to make him leave you alone out of fear. It's just not that easy. Unfortunately the better way seems to take a while to learn correctly. You don't need to intimidate just show confidence. (real confidence not acting like it cuz that will get you hurt) Don't challenge him or stand in front of him and puff out your chest or drop into fighting stance and kiop. It's a matter of developing enough confidence in yourself that you don't need to prove to anyone (including yourself) that you aren't afraid of somthing/someone. If you have this you won't draw the attention of bullies usually. If he already has you in his sights? Stay out of his way as much as the situation commits and worry about the rest when you truly have no other choice but to fight him. Then all the rest is moot. You won't have time to think "ok now its time for my heel hook, jump spining 540 jedi sweep combo. You'll just do what you've trained.
Summation: Train hard, train often, train correctly, and build yourself into a better person. It always sounds like nonsense just like it did when "some old guy" said it to me when I was young. But, if you're prepared and well trained, you'll find that less bullies will target you. Not because they know you study TKD (if infact you do) , but because you carry yourself confidently and have presense. All animals can smell fear and doubt, why not bullies?
