Union of ITF and WTF

Quote:

1 - Let me start off by saying that it would be a beautiful reunion for the people of Korea if the two Governments unified. I for one pray this happens soon.

2- Second, the General made a goodwill trip to North Korea under the cover of peace, unification and the expansion of not Korean Taekwondo which was aleady being practiced in South Korea, but for ITF Chong Hon Tae Kwon-Do the only style of taekwondo he acknowledges to be true and pure taekwondo as he gives himself sole credit for creating it. This is why many have labeled him as traitor and why his action was considered a capital offense.

3- In a different perspective it can be seen as one entrepreneur tapping a new source of oppertunity. As North Korea is closed off to the world and is opposed with everything South Korean. Accepting this style of TKD brought by a man who self exiled himself from their neighboring enemy would not be difficult to accept. Nothing wrong with that as this is the way of capitalism. Every business organization and do not full yourselves folks, the ITF is a business organization just like the WTF and this is what organizations do. They are trying to grow and diversify.

4- Just like the current merger that is trying to happen right now. It's all about the $$$

5- To give an example of how impossible it is for these countries to merge. The only border that is peacefully occupied by both of these nations is guarded by North Koreans on one side and by American allies on the South Korean side and tensions are extremely high there. Thats right folks, the troops guarding the South Korean side are not even Korean, they are American. An example of how petty this competition is; no soldier on either side is under 5'10. And all soldiers on the South Korean side must be at least 6' feet tall. It's a stand off.

6- There is no communication between troops, all troops on guard are on full alert, and it's not like messages are past on by one carrier to another, if one side wishes to speak with the other, a troop goes out and states that they are going to make an announcement on a mega phone. Then they proceed to make the announcement in public. The other side usually does not respond, however, they record everything. All actions are being recorded.

1- Agree totally. It is sad that they are not united, with familes cut off totally, since 1945!

2- It was simply against the law in the ROK for any citizen to travel to the north, regardless of the reason. Most people could not care why he went. He went & thats the problem. Keep in mind, he went at great personal risk, as he was a major general in the oppossing army in a war that did not technally ever end, still to this day. In addition, he was re-united with many of his family members, which is a sad fact that few Koreans could have ever done. Now, sadly, many are no longer living.
In addition, he called what he did TKD, as most others did not. He started using the name from 1955, even ordering his troops to say TaeKwon, when saluting. If you know your history in this area, few were using the name TKD, outside of the Oh Do kwan, which he commanded & the Chung Do Kwan, where many of his top instructors came from. It was not till August of 1965, that the KTA changed the name to TaeKwon-Do, from Tae Soo Do, when now retired 2 star major general Choi returned from Malyasia as the Ambassador & was elected president of the KTA. In fact, it was him that made the change. It was then he, who formed the ITF in 1966, 7 years before the WTF. By this time, many of the instructors teaching worldwide were his. Of course not all were, but few of them & some of them still don't use the name TKD. So that is 1 of the reasons he did not think anyone else was doing TKD. (I don't adopt that position, as it is too hard to argue thatpoint with so many WTF members & Olympic status etc.)

3- Agree for the most part.

4- Agree as well, but I see &/or accept the connection to the Koreas more.

5- Yes I have experienced that

6- Yes I saw that in a documentary

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 12/22/06 10:40 AM

Yes unification of the 2 Koreas, no time soon. That is not only probably aq good thing, but very necessary.

Merger of the ITF-NK & WTF. It will happen & sooner then the above stated unification. However, I also don't think it will happen anytime soon. The time will depend on how much the ITF-NK wants or gives up, to realize their aims which have a different motivation. The more I study it, the more I think the time is getting nearer. I hope I am wrong, as I want more to preserve my Art.

Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 12/26/06 09:28 AM

Quote:

Shang, I'm curious as to whether any merger will affect TAGB/ TKD International. When I was in TAGB they were not part of either ITF or WTF. Has this changed at all?

This is actually a good point trevek, one I've wondered about myself. I still have some friends from my old TAGB training days.

Basically the TAGB/TKD International are still a body unto themselves, i.e. not affiliated to ITF or WTF.

I wonder how this merger, if and when it happens, will effect "independent" TKD orginizations like the TAGB (that is bodies that teach TKD that are NOT associated to WTF/ITF). Will they still be able to teach TKD? Can they still call it TKD if the WTF and ITF get together and come up with a revised style of TKD?

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 12/26/06 10:16 AM

Good question. I don't know the answer. My guess would be very little will happen, as they are indepent. I guess a group like TKD INt. or TAGB can of course come under the Olympic fold easier, if that is what they wanted. Other than that I think there would be little difference. I don't think much will change on how individual groups or schools do things, other than whatever technical integration takes place. As always, independents can adopt some or all of it.

Posted by: sgtZipper

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 12/26/06 04:40 PM

They should not 'merge', because of the different forms and the differences in sparring. I don't think there's is a way for these styles to become one style. I do think they should allow ITF at the Olympics, or at least not call it Taekwon-do at the Olympics, but something like WTF Taekwon-do.
I hate it when people say: 'I saw taekwon-do on the Olympics, they were only kicking and shouting'.
Actually... I don't think WTF taekwon-do (nor ITF taekwon-do) is a real Olympic sport... although it is... hahaha you get the point.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 12/28/06 06:58 AM

I think because both ITF and WTF, as well as independents, have taken part in TI championships then they might be accepted into Olympics etc.

I think some of the senior instructors in TAGB also have grades registered with WTF

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/19/07 10:52 AM

Well I see that the ITF-NK Demo Team is performing again in south Korea, Seoul in early April. The last time they were there was in December of 2002. There are many clips of that demo on you tube & the like. I am guessing that this is a result of the agreement signed by the ITF & WTF at the last Asian Games (Dec. 2002) to work towards technical intergration & administrative merger.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/27/07 01:35 PM

The ITF-NK website is reporting that the next meeting with the WTF regarding the technical intergration an administrative merger will take place at the end of March in Beijing, China.

Also during the April 6-9 goodwill tour of South Korea by the ITF-NK Demo Team, the ITF-NK president & IOC Member will pay a protocol visit to the WTF president to futher these aims.

I guess it is moving along!

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

Posted by: warriortobe

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/05/07 06:35 AM

I cant see how a merger would work. The two federations are so different I cant see how either could compromise. ITF has entirely different patterns to WTF, the sparring styles are completly different and mentality and philosophy are inately different. To compromise on any aspect would reshape the art. How would you manage a compromise, particularly on patterns, when they are completely different?

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/05/07 09:01 AM

Quote:

I cant see how a merger would work. The two federations are so different I cant see how either could compromise. ITF has entirely different patterns to WTF, the sparring styles are completly different and mentality and philosophy are inately different. To compromise on any aspect would reshape the art. How would you manage a compromise, particularly on patterns, when they are completely different?

Don't be fooled here. This about politics. NK wants to get their players into the olympics (among other things I am sure). ITF members will probably adhere to the olympic sparring rules as it will be easier for them to conform rather than the rest of the world changing who have olympic teams. Now with that said, there really is not that much different between the 2. Putting patterns and the sine wave aside (as well as terminology), the techniques are pretty much the same. ITF's sparring is not that far off either. They do continuous sparring but allow the hands to the head. There are even some venues which allow full contact and KO's as well. I have traveled enough and visited enough of both orgs schools to know that they are not as different as people like to believe !

VDJ

Posted by: trevek

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/05/07 04:11 PM

I don't see how why they can't unite under a single banner and have two distinct styles, like many Karate orgs do.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/05/07 10:21 PM

Which ITF aren't there like 3 or 4 of them. How can the WTF unite with something that is completely disarray? The WTF does not need those kinds of complications. Especially since they are finally getting themselves straighten out particularly in the united states. Each state is re-organizing themselves so that when it comes to picking state and national champs for the Olympics there wont be so much confusion.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/06/07 03:42 PM

Tek,

You haven't been reading the thread if your asking which one. They have ONLY been in discussion with the segment that is headquartered in N. Korea (ITF-NK), headed up by Chang Ung. Chang Ung is also on the IOC for NK. They are not acknowledging ITF Vienna or ITF Canada (headed up by General Chois son). This is one of the reasons why it is my belief that it is more politically motivated rather than diplomatically motivated. Still, with all the division within the ITF, their curriculum is far more organized than the WTF's is !

VDJ

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/07/07 10:44 PM

Eww why get so sensitive... I asked a simple question, which ITF organization. I made no mention about their curriculum. And besides, your wrong, their curriculum is no more organized than any school. I think you meant to say standardized and if thats the case so be it. I'm glad I am not apart of something that is standardized.

Because each person learns differently. I prefer each instructor brings in what they know not only from their TKD background but from all their MA experience. That way the art continues to grow, it doesn't stay stagnant. What works for one person may not work for another, each person finds their own fit. hehe this sounds like JKD doesn't it. Woot Woot

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/08/07 08:50 PM

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20070406/sp_wl_afp/skoreankoreataekwondoioc_070406043630

This above link has a story on the ITF Demo team visiting Seoul & the ITF-Nk president meeting with the WTF president while there.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/08/07 08:54 PM

Quote:

Tek, You haven't been reading the thread if your asking which one. They have ONLY been in discussion with the segment that is headquartered in N. Korea (ITF-NK), headed up by Chang Ung. Chang Ung is also on the IOC for NK. They are not acknowledging ITF Vienna or ITF Canada (headed up by General Chois son). This is one of the reasons why it is my belief that it is more politically motivated rather than diplomatically motivated. Still, with all the division within the ITF, their curriculum is far more organized than the WTF's is ! VDJ

Sorry Sir, the ITF-NK is headquartered in Vienna (Wein), Austria, in the same building that is owned by the ITF, which has served as the headquarters before the Founder died in 2001. In fact, the ITF Constitution, I think mandates the headquarters being in Austria. The ITF moved there in 1985, after being in North America (Canada) since 1972 & of course being in Asia (south Korea, in Seoul) since it was formed in 1966.

ITF-V is also in Vienna, but not in the original building. That is something that I imagine will be addressed by the court decision.

Posted by: Mike_L

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/09/07 06:32 PM

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/09/07 07:31 PM

Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?

Well thats the real question isn't it. Both styles are pretty much the same. The only minor differences are the kind of sparring and the forms for advancement. However, if the ITF wants what the WTF has which is Olympic recognition then they will have to change their style of sparring to WTF's way. I don't think the Olympic sparring will change because it would take away from TKD's uniqueness. What would happen if karate was introduced as a sport, what then would the ITF do would they compete as karate-men.

Also you have to look at the negative effects, the ITF wants the popularity the WTF has that it is willing to become just as sports orientated as the WTF. They will become the very people they criticize. Will the quality of Chon hon TKD drop? Because once you start competing it becomes about winning and who's reputation and so worth.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/09/07 07:56 PM

Quote:

Eww why get so sensitive... I asked a simple question, which ITF organization. I made no mention about their curriculum. And besides, your wrong, their curriculum is no more organized than any school. I think you meant to say standardized and if thats the case so be it. I'm glad I am not apart of something that is standardized.

Because each person learns differently. I prefer each instructor brings in what they know not only from their TKD background but from all their MA experience. That way the art continues to grow, it doesn't stay stagnant. What works for one person may not work for another, each person finds their own fit. hehe this sounds like JKD doesn't it. Woot Woot

First off, I answered your simple question and was not sensitive to it, but the answer to your question was already in the thread as it has only been about ITF-NK ! So shoot me for saying organized rather than standardized, you know exactly what I meant ! And Chang Hon has been very progressive in their training methods, but when you go to one of their schools and it comes time to perform the patterns, or techniques are called out, they will be the same in every school and not adapted to the instructors will. Yes, not everybody is the same or can perform the same, but a curriculum shouldn't be hodge podge either and it has been my experience that ITF schools do much better at this as well as teaching self defense than WTF schools do as they are too interested in teaching the sport side !

VDJ

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/09/07 08:00 PM

Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?

ITF's sparring is continuous, it is no longer stop point and is very similar to olympic sparring except for the hands to the head.

VDJ

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/10/07 12:15 AM

Quote:

So how would this work? Would it have olympic sparring and point sparring as seperate parts still, or combine the two?

Well as has already been stated, the ITF has had continuous sparring, NOT the karate type stop match for at least 3 decades now. So the intergration with respect to the fighting rules will probably center around allowing punches to the head, as the ITF already does & the WTF is already thinking about, as an attempt to speed up the action for the spectators. It may also include having more points for more difficult techniques, like the ITF & gymnastics, diving etc have already.

As far as the patterns, who knows. That remains to be seen. maybe both sets will be allowed, or some combination of them allowed, possibly with the WTF having more, since they have a larger & stronger membership. However, many, including present day WTF, do think the ITF patterns are better.

We also have to see if the rules will now include power (breaking) & special techniques (flying breaking).

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 04/10/07 01:53 AM

What is the real benefit to this merger? What does the WYF really get out of this? In my heart, I know it CANNOT be about better political relations with North Korea.

And I know they care nothing of mending the past, because that would mean finally actually giving Gen. Choi some credit about anything regarding TKD. I mean if you have ever picked up a book written by a Master affiliated with the WTF then you know exactly what I'm talking about. They never EVER mention Master Choi's name. According to them there is no single source for the creation of Tae Kwon Do. Neither in name nor in technique. And just like Gen Choi, the WTF desn't even acknowledge the existances of karate in taekwondo techniques. I know, I know, I'm exagerating a bit. But seriously this is how the Korean Masters claim that Tae Kwon Do is a pure Korean art and that it evolved out of subak and taekyon and so forth. This includes TKD's philosophy and moral creeds as well. These according to scholars stem from the Korean Hwarang Warriors.

So what does the WTF get? Where is the money? This has to be about money.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/05/07 09:40 PM

For those of you who get or see TKD Times magazine, in the current July of 2007, now on the newstands, there is a story on page 6 about the Fist Tower. The Fist Tower was a monument erected on Jeju Island, where TKD was developed & introduced to the military. It was the home of the 29th Infantry Division, the Fist Division, headed by then Major General Choi Hong Hi. This was the "1st & most little known monument". In 1985, it was taken down. The rumor was that the brother of the Korean president had it taken down. It remained hidden for 15 years until "locals sought out, uncovered & restored to its rightful honor".

This is just another reminder of examples of how much interference there was, caused by the SK govt, to the ITF & its founder, as well as those pioneers that were among the first to spread the Art around the world.

Then in the same issue, the WTF has a full page ad, that also is on their website, clearly stating that "the members of the ITF are not eligible" to enter into their TKD Masters Essay contest.

Very sad & it will be a long & difficult road to a union of these 2 organizations.

Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/06/07 11:14 PM

To tell you the truth, I think you'll see Korea united before TKD. In other words, we can all start waiting for hell to freeze over. I mentioned in another thread about masters tearing down other masters and how it was merely denegrating to thier own style or school... unfortunately that seems to be modus operandi in TKD (of either ilk, having studied both over the years.)

Even (or should I say particularly) the General was guilty of this. He had his reasons, but I have to admit that my opportunity to meet the man is more tainted by his trashing of some of the WTF students who came in to seek instruction on the ITF patterns than by any modicum of honour that I was supposed to have felt just by being able to study under him.

That is not to say that my experience with WTF Masters has been much more pleasant when they have found out that I am/was a student of ITF. The attitude is somewhat akin to what one would expect after having farted in public.

Even the last act of the General prior to his death, willing the ITF to Chang Ung, although seen as an attempt to move the two federations closer together has been (in my opinon) misunderstood. After the ejection of Grandmaster Choi (the son) from the ITF, I think that the General was uncomfortable leaving the ITF in the hands of a non-Korean, constitution be damned. If the ITF was subsequently brought under the Olympic umbrella then so much the better. This guess at his motivation is not entirely a stretch, he was fiercely nationalistic (and good for him, I'm not knocking that) Regardless of what I think, the official line is that this move was going to bring the ITF and WTF together...

First, the WTF would have to get together for that to be effective, and the results of the General's last wishes have done nothing but split the ITF apart. And he was anything but stupid, he must have known the risk that he was taking.

If a "union" was to take place, which "true" factions of the two federations would unite? And you may call me cynical if you wish, but my guess is the portions of each that choose not to unite will then look upon and speak about the new unionized federation as if it were inferior and we'd then have three "official" federations split into multiple factions, with one exception. That unionized portion of the ITF would end up changing its syllabus.....

Yeah, everybody loses.

Sorry [/rant] I just think we should concentrate on mending the ITF before we get too wound up about amalgamating with WTF.

Cheers
JJ

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/07/07 07:30 AM

I don't see the WTF going anywhere. They have really got there act together as far as the United states is concern. Here in the states they have reorganized the taekwondo unions and replaced entire committees full of greedy administrations business men who were steeling from the WTF. Although now there is less participation due to past handling of such issues. These TKD unions are raking in more money for the WTF than they were in the past with even less participants than before. Now slowly but surely the unions are once again attaining the number of students they once had in the past.

It seems to me that much of the baggage that the General had against the WTF or it's forefather association his ill will has been passed on to his organization and it's affiliates. WHo knows maybe there is something to be said about where the General was born, which is now considered north Korea, perhaps that has also attributed to his ill will.

The ITF should forget about merging with the WTF, and concentrate on unifying it's own organization which has spit in three.

I no longer feel the merger has to do with the unification of Korea, for that to happen many high officials in North Korea need to disappear. The political and ideological differences are to great for something as trivial as Taekwondo to make any difference.

Both the WTF and three ITF orgs. are nothing but money making giants. The art that has now been dubbed Tae Kwon Do and that is popular world wide has been around before these institutions were created and will be here long after these business/marketing giants fade.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/07/07 10:48 AM

I agree JJ!

It is very clear to me that he (Ambassador Choi) used TKD for his desire to re-unite his beloved Korea.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/07/07 01:32 PM

Let me start off by saying that it would be a beautiful reunion for the people of Korea if the two Governments unified. I for one pray this happens soon.

Addressing some of the issues stated above all of which are true however, can also be seen in a different light with alternate motives. Such as the decision of General Choi to exile himself from the very country he served and protected. Noone exiles themselves unless they have a very good reason, one of which and the one that comes to mind is that if your in serious trouble and are saving the embarrassment of having your government exile you, so you save face and do it yourself.

Second, the General made a goodwill trip to North Korea under the cover of peace, unification and the expansion of not Korean Taekwondo which was aleady being practiced in South Korea, but for ITF Chong Hon Tae Kwon-Do the only style of taekwondo he acknowledges to be true and pure taekwondo as he gives himself sole credit for creating it. This is why many have labeled him as traitor and why his action was considered a capital offense.

In a different perspective it can be seen as one entrepreneur tapping a new source of oppertunity. As North Korea is closed off to the world and is opposed with everything South Korean. Accepting this style of TKD brought by a man who self exiled himself from their neighboring enemy would not be difficult to accept. Nothing wrong with that as this is the way of capitalism. Every business organization and do not full yourselves folks, the ITF is a business organization just like the WTF and this is what organizations do. They are trying to grow and diversify.

Just like the current merger that is trying to happen right now. It's all about the $$$

To give an example of how impossible it is for these countries to merge. The only border that is peacefully occupied by both of these nations is guarded by North Koreans on one side and by American allies on the South Korean side and tensions are extremely high there. Thats right folks, the troops guarding the South Korean side are not even Korean, they are American. An example of how petty this competition is; no soldier on either side is under 5'10. And all soldiers on the South Korean side must be at least 6' feet tall. It's a stand off.

There is no communication between troops, all troops on guard are on full alert, and it's not like messages are past on by one carrier to another, if one side wishes to speak with the other, a troop goes out and states that they are going to make an announcement on a mega phone. Then they proceed to make the announcement in public. The other side usually does not respond, however, they record everything. All actions are being recorded.

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/08/07 12:32 AM

I personally don't see any reason to unify the two. They both have similarities but differences as well ... and the same goes for Karate. I think the world is big enough to house all of them and if they never come together then that is fine by me.

There is too much politics and when that happens nobody wins. Politics even within ones own system with changes is a pain so by unifying the two I believe would be an even greater pain in the butt and if it ever happened I would hope my school would not change and if it did then I would be looking at leaving. There is no room in my training for politics.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/09/07 07:52 PM

Sounds to much like a conspiracy theory to me. A country is going to turn it's back on one of it's highest decorated generals.

If it is true that Master Choi came up with the name of Taekwondo, why would the Korean government use that name created by him.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/10/07 06:09 AM

ITFunity,

I'd like to ask you some questions regarding Master CHoi and history of TKD. I will begin by stating that I feel that I am skeptical regarding what many ITF affiliates would have everyone believe about Master Choi. I don't think that ITF TKD is any different than TSD with regards to philosophy, techniques, and the method in which they practice. I have read information both on Master Choi and the WTF. I say it like that because when it comes down to it, it is one man versus an organization of masters. Although the ITF is far bigger than one man, he is at the head, the buck seems to stop with him, unlike the WTF. What I mean is that if you ask a random TKD student to name a WTF master or one of the original kwan masters, they wouldn't know the answer. And personally I like the idea of a bunch of masters forming an organization with no super star celebrities to outshine anyone. Well truth be told, I don't like the idea of an organization, but if there had to be one, I prefer a select group of top masters and not just one primodonna. So that is how I view things so far, I'll begin with my questions.

When Master Choi founded the ITF he was not teaching TaeKwonDo as it is known today. He was teaching just another version of Korean Karate. When did he finally start teaching the Chong Hon style that is practiced today?

It seems that he came up with a name before he actually came up with an art. Koreans are famous for taking credit for something someone else created first. Often they change the name of things in order to reinvent it. As example you can look u many of their arts that are renamed. Shotokan, kendo, judo, Muay Thai. Tang Soo Do, yudo, kumdo. The name for MT has currently slipped my mind. But you see where I'm going with this.

Also there were already many Korean instructors teaching Korean Karate all over the world. There have been many Masters who claim that when they spoke to General Choi, that he asked them to call there art Taekwondo in order to spread the art and make it distinctive from Japanese karate. Although I cannot name many of the master from the magazines I have read, currently Jhoon Rhee who is considered the father of American TKD comes to mind. Would this not give the right for any Korean Master to use the name Taekwondo if they were teaching a martial art that was taught to them by a Korean master? This would eliminate anyone being known as the founder of Taekwondo as art.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/11/07 07:17 AM

Tek, apparently he even asked Mas Oyama about Kyokoshin becoming part of the TKD banner. Interesting when I'm sure many Koreans have mixed feelings about Oyama's status as a Korean (pledging loyalty to Japan).

Interesting how the ITF manifesto/constitution claims Gen. Choi founded TKD 'in perfection'. This would mean it 'sprang fully formed' and needs no changes or improvements.

Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/11/07 02:22 PM

This is just more evidence that any merger is ill-conceived and likely ill-fated. We go back around the mulberry bush about the legitimacy of General Choi as the founder. The fact that the Gen. was the first person to forward the name Taekwon Do has never been, in my experience, legitimately disputed. It was still a committee decision. So they can all take credit for it if they like, but it was the Gen. who proposed it.

So what? I propose things in meetings at work all the time. Sometimes they are instituted and have national-level impacts. If I was working in a consensus based job, I could then go around saying that "it was all my idea" but the whole committee would have to agree, so it becomes shared. Hence why SK continued to use the name after everything else went on. Not to mentione the fact that so many "goodwill" demonstrations had gone on all over the world. SK would have had a lot of egg on their face if they just up and changed the name of their national sport because some general had fallen out of favour.

As for his exile, would it have been better if he had been executed? Would that lend more credibility to his claims to the art? Probably not, they would just erase his history as they have already tried to and the ITF wouldn't exist at all.

Although I think that some practitioners of ITF have gone too far to deify the Gen, I also feel that many of the WTF practitioners go too far to protest his legacy for there not to be credence in it. The old "Methinks they doth protest too much" adage.

WTF would never accept the recognition of the Gen in their syllabus, and the ITF wouldn't be willing to bury him. So the likelihood of a merger at anything other than the micro level is very slim.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/12/07 08:44 AM

I thinl they should just cut to the chase and have an NHB TKD death match to sort it all out (but then they'd probably spend the next million years debating the rules)

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/19/07 05:10 AM

Interesting reply. I have to admit that I do tend to agree with some of your valid points. You have forced me to think & that is good & I thank you for that!

I just think that many underestimate the whole geo-political effect that can influence a potential merger. If it goes the way I see it, the ITF-NK will be strengthened by those that will join it & weakened, by those who will leave it for your stated reasons. I just think that there are more independents that may gravitate towards the ITF-NK, if a merger happens with the WTF. The media attention alone will be tremendous. Of course both the ITF C & V, will attract the purists, but they are, I am afraid a dwindling group (of which I proudly am part of).
Stay tuned I guess. Time will tell. However, I see on the ITF-V website, the majority of their members want Olympic access & they said they will pursue it as well.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 06/22/07 12:36 AM

There was the 2nd coordination meeting earlier this week between the ITF-NK & WTF. If anyone hears of any news, please post. I will do the same.
Thanks

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 10/30/07 11:12 AM

The 3rd coordination meeting was held last week in Beijing China between the WTF & ITF-NK.Apparently they set up 2 additional sub-committees. One will handle sparring & the other patterns. In addition, they will work on a location & date for future meetings.......

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 11/04/07 06:23 PM

The most recent round of talks have been reported on the WTF website:

http://www.wtf.org/site/news/wtf.htm?realnum=183&page=1&keyword=&part=&mode=view

I have seen the WTF also report on the others as well.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 11/04/07 08:08 PM

Wow, it looks like they are finally getting the ball rolling. So are they trying to come up with a new set of patterns and sparring rules for this new joint organization they are trying to create from the merger of these 2 bodies?

I've got to say, that if I actually cared about this, I would be impressed but. But hearing all the squable and debating that has gone on in this forum and over forums over the who's who of TKD and who owns the ights to this, who created that. This all just seems like a bunch of crap to me. Now I don't look down on anyone who find this interesting or anyone who supports this merger, after all it can bring some glimmer of hope to the people of North and South Korea to have find some sort of common ground, I'm all for it. But as far as having a regulating body over an art, well that just seems stupid to me. I find any organization even non profit ones always having to do with profit. Either they want cash or some sort of recognition for something. Why should the future of TKD be left in the hands of these 2 Giant bodies, why not leave it in the hands of the individual practitioners, those of us who do practice the art. not a bunch of guys in suits who probably no longer practice the art. I mean its like small school owner who all of a suddenwants to build a franchise, their school grows, he needs more space, more money comes rolling in, buys another school, soon the once excellent and wonderful teacher is now a business man, spending more time in the back room thinking of marketing schemes rather than spending time on the floor educating his students and sharing his passions as a result studying TKD.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 11/05/07 11:59 AM

Good points. However, this is just about seeing if they can come to some agreement on having both ITF & WTF compete in the Olympics. As you know, the WTF governs Olympic TKD. To date, the only way an ITF player can compete, is to get a WTF BB cert, follow the WTF rules/format, then compete & win a place on the team. This is just an attempt to make it more of a mix, allowing easier access for the ITF players.
I doubt we will really see any progress anytime soon.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 11/14/07 03:38 PM

Why can't they just have both styles, like wrestling has two Olympic styles?

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 11/14/07 06:28 PM

Quote:

Why can't they just have both styles, like wrestling has two Olympic styles?

Because its really NOT two different styles (techniques are the same, just different terminolgy, and my guess is that the terminology is only different in English, not Korean). The difference is as ITFunity states, sparring rule differences. I personally believe that the ITF rules make sparring more exciting. Hands are allowed and attempts at scoring are more frequent, and no, hand techniques DO NOT dominate, they kick alot. But the more I watch the Olympic elite, the bigger the snooze fest (I can honestly say that I have never seen an exciting Steven Lopez match). Now its not to say that I haven't seen good ones, my own instructor is a very accomplished Olympic fighter just missing the '92 Olympic team due to injury. But I have found more action on the videos I have seen from the ITF world championships (and yes, some of that was ugly too).

VDJ

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 11/29/07 12:47 PM

This may be going off topic somewhat, but it is related. It appears the USTF in the USA is allowing their members to affilaite to the ITF-V. The USTF will still exist, however, access to international certification & events will now be possible through the ITF-V.

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/05/08 05:34 PM

Hi all, I would love to see a merge, you would see from day 1 an emergence of mutual respect for ITF and WTF especially from ea. other. And I support allowing punches in sparing it would dispel a lot of myths that WTFs can"t punch(box) ext. Taekwondo needs to merge to dispel the ignorance and deception that is out there mostly with its own practitioners regaurding the differences between ITF-WTF

Posted by: TKD_X

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/05/08 06:49 PM

I think it would be cool to get the best of both worlds. However, if they merge, i hope all of the forms and trditional aspects are preserved.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/05/08 07:57 PM

Quote:

I think it would be cool to get the best of both worlds. However, if they merge, i hope all of the forms and trditional aspects are preserved.

What do you mean the "best of both worlds"? They aren't really different with the exception of sine wave and the sparring rules. The techniques have different terminology, which is really only in english because in Korean they are the same.

VDJ

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 12:27 AM

Quote:

Hi all, I would love to see a merge, you would see from day 1 an emergence of mutual respect for ITF and WTF especially from ea. other.

No way! there is deep hatred that goes back decades from the old guard.

Posted by: EFRAIN

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 12:43 AM

Hey guys I've noticed that there is just 2 much beef with the ITF and WTF. I have a solution for this dilema...why not join the GTF? Global Taekwondo Federation...........This is farely a new federation been around for about 18 years and is still growing with over 25 countries on its resume...and yes it has politics but nothing compared to what u guys are dealing with.... Just thought i can butt in and help lol..... For curious peeps, GTF has the same forms as ITF and some new ones created by the late Grandmaster Park Jung Tae

OH AND THE GTF WORLD CHAMPIONSHIP IS GUNNA BE HELD IN CANADA IN JULY I THINK THIS YEAR...

Bow out with respect from a TKD/BAGUA MARTIALIST

Posted by: michaelboik

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 08:11 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Hi all, I would love to see a merge, you would see from day 1 an emergence of mutual respect for ITF and WTF especially from ea. other.

No way! there is deep hatred that goes back decades from the old guard.

The problem with a merger is that the WTF controls competition and KKW controls TKD. The ITF controls both. I still say keep them separate and have a huge TKD festival where both are showcased. We are at a time where both can exist without interfering with the other. We are seeing the ITF returning to SK with positive results. I feel this is a more logical step then merging.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 01:00 PM

This is something like TKD International (TAGB) tried to do. They have an independent World Championships which is open to all TKD stylists.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 01:34 PM

Th AAU in the states does as well. It recognizes ITF,WTF and TSD patterns at the tournaments. Sparring is both stop point and olympic.

VDJ

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 03:55 PM

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In my travels, about the only thing I have not seen in an ITF school is the "Double/Triple" kick.
[quote/]

If you are talking about mutiple kicks, the ITF has these as well.

No, it is not a multiple kick as you are probably thinking about it (same leg kicking numerous times). The first kick hits low around the thigh or buttocks and then is followed up very fast with the opposite leg to a scoring area, add one more with the first kicking leg to make it a triple.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WTF Narabum kick (because of its pronunciation some call Audobon) is the same as the ITF 360 turning kick.[quote/]

The ITF has no 360 turning kick

Kicking leg is the lead leg,spin all the way around and kick with lead leg? Maybe 560 turning kick?

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The WTF spin hook kick is the same as the ITF reverse turning kick.[quote/]

I don't think so. 2 differnt kicks, with 2 differnt motions & 2 different targets.

Please explain as everytime I go to an ITF school that is how it is explained to me. Maybe VDan can give some insight here for me as well.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

ITF turning kick is the same as the WTF round kick, which I am certain would have the same name in korean.[quote/]

Yes & no. It has the same name, but is not done the same way. We have side turning & turning kicks, with different targets. We also do turning kick primarily with foot the ball of the foot. The instep & knees are secondary tools.

I am aware of these kicks and the striking tools and their targets. If I'm not mistaken the Side turning kick also has a different chambering position than the turning kick, which is definitely a round kick with the WTF/Kukki.

Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The sine wave is the single biggest difference between the two styles and is typically only seen when patterns/stepping basics and 1,2&3 steps are practiced.[quote/]
I didn't think they had 2 step sparring & they do not do step sparring like the ITF does, nor do they do semi-free sparring, foot technique sparring or model sparring.

Depends on whose school you go into. But this still is getting away from techniques.

VDJ

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/06/08 04:26 PM

I've looked at this from time to time but have not really read everything. I however would like to add my simple comment regarding the possible union of ITF and WTF. I personally hope this never happens. They are two unities that are unique and should remain this way. I no more want to start learning the ITF format/techniques as the ITF doesn't want to learn the WTF format/techniques. The ITF has its encyclopedias that they hold in high regard and I highly doubt they want to give that up and I'm sure I'm not the only WTF person that doesn't want to have an encyclopedia. The ITF uses sinewave where as the WTF doesn't; and each like it this way.

Two separate entities that should remain as such.

Posted by: EvenRats

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/07/08 12:07 AM

Maybe ITF-NK would be the best candidate for merging. It creates the possibility that North and South Korea will finally unite.
That being said, merging any other sects of the ITF with WTF will be almost impossible. Theres too much resentment between the organizations. Or if resentment is not the case, then differences in cirriculum and founders. Those within their organizations are more comfortable with their styles. You can't expect a ITF practitioner to strap on a hogu and use only his legs in sparring, or a WTF practitioner to switch it up with both hands and legs. Of course however, if merging succeeds with terms that we can all agree on, I'll support it.

In my opinion, the best choice for all the major TKD organizations, be it ITF, WTF or GTF, is to fully recognize eachother. Not half-assed "meh" or "bleh" recognitions, but to actually discuss with eachother the future of TKD. Practitioners of different organizations could compete against eachother more frequently as well.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/07/08 12:21 AM

Well VDJ I see where you are coming from & won't argue against it further. It is just that then we all (TKD) is then just the same as Shotokan, except for the Tuls & SW movement.

Posted by: EvenRats

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/07/08 10:38 AM

Heh, It might just be me then (I can't even put the damn thing on).

Anyway, my point is, any merger is welcomed as long as they can come to terms that we can all agree and transition smoothly into. This might even be a chance to get ITF into the olympics.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/07/08 07:32 PM

Quote:

Anyway, my point is, any merger is welcomed as long as they can come to terms that we can all agree and transition smoothly into. This might even be a chance to get ITF into the olympics.

Be careful what you wish for. it may kill our Art.

Posted by: EvenRats

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/08/08 01:24 PM

Quote:

Be careful what you wish for. it may kill our Art.

I certainly wouldn't want to see our beloved ITF be 'killed', but I wouldn't want it not to progress into the modern world as well. I see it as more of a evolution; you take the useful traits and pass it on to the next generation.
Its a move on or stay kind of situation.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/08/08 03:07 PM

But EvenRats, what do you want it to progress into? An Olympic sport? There is a cost to everything in life & I think I want to pay that price.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/09/08 12:47 PM

With the cirticism that WTF has been getting, do you think it will make the Olympics past 2012? The Olympic committee is looking for sports that bring crowds. It barely made the vote this last time from what I've heard. We need to look beyond the Olympics.

I'm not sure it's even going to make it to the 2012 games ! Of course if it gets removed maybe that will help bring some credability back to the art.

VDJ

Posted by: badachagi

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/09/08 01:34 PM

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained, while softball and baseball were voted out. Squash and Karate were finalists in the vote to replace baseball and softball, but neither managed to gain enough voted to become part of the official program.

While TKD has received some criticism, I seriously doubt that its place in the Olympics is in much danger. The main criticisms that it received was low TV ratings, and lack of consistent scoring and officiating. There were some allegations that the TKD competition at the Syndey games were biased to favor the Korean competitors. However, many of these criticisms were laid upon the WTF while Un Yong Kim was president. Since the time he was replaced, the WTF has taken on many reform measures to address the criticisms it has receieved. For example, the WTF has been testing out wireless electronic sensors in the chest and head protectors to register points, instead of relying on corner judges. The vote to retain TKD in 2012 seems to be a vote of confidence in those reform measures.

I think TV ratings are not likely to have a huge affect on a sport's inclusion in the Olympic program. After all, baseball is probably more popular that TKD, and likely had better ratings, but it was dropped. Consistent officiating is probably a more valid reason, since I doubt the IOC wants to be accused of hosting sports where fair play is not promoted.

Finally, I think TKD right now has too much "politcal" support to be dropped. Compared to a lot of other sports, TKD is one of those sports that levels the playing field for medals, in that TKD is the best chance many small and developing countries have at earning a medal (since it doesn't require as much facilities and resources as, say, water polo or equestrian). Vietnam earned its first Olympic medal ever in TKD, so I think examples like that are likely to earn TKD more support than criticism.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/09/08 01:49 PM

Quote:

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained,

Yes, this was my understanding as well. It is beyond 2012 that I think is up in the air.

Quote:

Finally, I think TKD right now has too much "politcal" support to be dropped. Compared to a lot of other sports, TKD is one of those sports that levels the playing field for medals, in that TKD is the best chance many small and developing countries have at earning a medal (since it doesn't require as much facilities and resources as, say, water polo or equestrian). Vietnam earned its first Olympic medal ever in TKD, so I think examples like that are likely to earn TKD more support than criticism.

This is a good point that I never considered. Thanks

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/09/08 02:07 PM

Quote:

Actually, TKD has already been ensured a place in the 2012 Olympics. The vote was held during 2005, where TKD was retained, Karate were finalists in the vote to replace baseball and softball, but neither managed to gain enough voted to become part of the official program.

While TKD has received some criticism, I seriously doubt that its place in the Olympics is in much danger. The main criticisms that it received was low TV ratings, and lack of consistent scoring and officiating. There were some allegations that the TKD competition at the Syndey games were biased to favor the Korean competitors. However, many of these criticisms were laid upon the WTF while Un Yong Kim was president. Since the time he was replaced, the WTF has taken on many reform measures to address the criticisms it has receieved. For example, the WTF has been testing out wireless electronic sensors in the chest and head protectors to register points, instead of relying on corner judges. The vote to retain TKD in 2012 seems to be a vote of confidence in those reform measures.

Yes there seems to be several fronts that the WTF has to defend against. The corruption & alleged biased judging are just 2. Low ratings which indicate the new sport never took hold is another. Karate & Chinese Wu Shu pitch for inclusion are others. The biggest one however may be the SK & NK political situation. NK has become one of the premier developers of outstanding TKD players. To not allow them to compete is politically incorrect from the standpoint of what many see the IOC as being representative of. Now you can make an arguement that NK players can compete & you would be right. However they would make the counter-arguement that they are being discriminated against, as they do a different type of TKD, which they say is the real TKD. This was an arguement that Ambassador Choi Hong Hi made unsuccessfully for years. The WTF & IOC basically ignored him. Since the country of NK has become involved & as they have moved high up on the worldwide talent scale, this has changed the mood of discussions. This is why we now have ITF & WTF merger talks, with input & some oversight by the IOC. Whether or not an agreement can be made, remains to be seen. I think probably not. The key will be WHAT will Prof. Chang Ung, an IOC Member & president of the largest ITF does with his vote on the continued inclusion of TKD, when it comes up again in a few years & how hard will he lobby his friends & form a coalition with Karate, Wu Shui & China to vote against as well.
This I think is the key! It would be a great feather in the cap of the IOC, if they can resolve a sports conflict, that would also have very positive geo-political effects on a tense standoff between the 2 Koreas. JMHO

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/09/08 02:59 PM

Well thanks for the update on 2012. Smaller countries being able to compete in the olympics makes sense, but I am still not sure if that will be a strong enough reason for them to continue its inclusion. TV ratings will continue to suck as long as they keep putting the matches on at 1 and 2 AM. Finally, they still really need to do something to make these matches more interesting to watch. There is now where near the action it should have, and saying that they respect each other to much to make a fight is rediculous (sorry Von). All combative arts participants have a certain amount of respect for each other, they still go at it. aS FOR tkd sparring, I still find ITF matches much more exciting to watch, and they are not all about using their hands either.

VDJ

Posted by: badachagi

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/09/08 06:25 PM

Quote:

Well thanks for the update on 2012. Smaller countries being able to compete in the olympics makes sense, but I am still not sure if that will be a strong enough reason for them to continue its inclusion. TV ratings will continue to suck as long as they keep putting the matches on at 1 and 2 AM. Finally, they still really need to do something to make these matches more interesting to watch. There is now where near the action it should have, and saying that they respect each other to much to make a fight is rediculous (sorry Von). All combative arts participants have a certain amount of respect for each other, they still go at it. aS FOR tkd sparring, I still find ITF matches much more exciting to watch, and they are not all about using their hands either.

VDJ

Whether a sport in included in the Olympics has less to do with how exciting it is to watch or even popularity, and more to do with money and political clout. Perfect example is baseball, which has got to be more popular and more watched that TKD, but it was voted out while TKD was retained. Another example is Karate, which has got to be at least as popular as TKD in terms of numbers of practitioners, and yet it couldn't even get a majority vote at the 2005 IOC session.

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?

So back to my previous point, yes the WTF has had critics, but I think that these critics will not be able to dissuade the large amount of political support (in terms of IOC member nations) that TKD has built and sustained.

If anything, I think it would have been easier to oust TKD back when Korea was taking all the medals, as Judo faced a similar problem in its early days with Japan threatening to take all the medals. But now that the quality of TKD fighters has risen across the world, it's no longer a foregone conclusion that Korea will take 1st at a major international tournament. Countries like China, Taiwan, Iran, and other have built strong TKD programs which have become a rich source for medals in the Olympics. More countries now have a viable shot at medaling at the Olympics thanks to TKD, which I think will further secure its position.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/10/08 12:35 AM

Quote:

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?

Badachagi:
Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/10/08 08:56 PM

No apology necessary I have agreed with others that Olympic competition is a boring spectacle. However I stand by the respect comment. It is the scoring that forces the respect. There is not enough available to the opponents to attack without being effectively countered and pointed so you get that lull where each opponent lays back until they can"t take it any more. Actually non Olympic full contact WTF competitions are more exciting than the Olympics with many knock outs.

Posted by: badachagi

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/11/08 12:16 AM

Quote:

Quote:

I'm not saying that people were paid off or that shady deals were made for TKD to stay. I'm just saying that whenever you have people, you're going to have politics, networking, and jockeying for powerful positions. It's just a fact of life. Un Yong Kim, former president of KKW, WTF, and KTA was at one time an IOC VP, and during his tenure TKD was voted into the official Olympic program. I think we're all capable of connecting the dots on this one, right?

Badachagi:
Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?

To accomplish what specifically?

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/11/08 12:25 AM

Quote:

Badachagi: Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?

To accomplish what specifically?

To effect the continued inclusion of TKD as an Olympic sport. If he can, that of course may impact merger talks.

Posted by: badachagi

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/11/08 12:32 AM

Quote:

No apology necessary I have agreed with others that Olympic competition is a boring spectacle. However I stand by the respect comment. It is the scoring that forces the respect. There is not enough available to the opponents to attack without being effectively countered and pointed so you get that lull where each opponent lays back until they can"t take it any more. Actually non Olympic full contact WTF competitions are more exciting than the Olympics with many knock outs.

I think one could make the argument that a lot of sports are "boring" to watch, if you don't fully understand the game. TKD can get boring sometimes if you expect to see nothing but fancy kicks, but if you understand the motions, checking, and ring management that is going on between flurries, you appreciate the overall match more. Someone might think grappling or wrestling is boring because all they do is "roll around on the mat", and not appreciate all the work that goes into getting yourself into a dominant position to apply the submission or pin. Another person might think baseball is boring because it takes two strikes and three balls before the batter actually makes a decent hit.

In general, the matches I've witnessed that have been the most "exciting" or "flashy" were the ones where one fighter was clearly outclassed. The superior fighter would take points at will, and would be confident enough to execute more spinning and jumping kicks. These would generally happen in the opening rounds of a tournament, or at smaller local tournaments.

Then again, one of the most exciting TKD matches I watched was between Mark Lopez and Jason Han as USA team trials duking it out for the featherweight spot. Two amazing athletes, so you can hardly say that was an instance of one outclassing the other.

Back in the 80's and 90's when the Koreans were more dominant, they used to go to town on some of their opponents. They attempted and scored with all kinds of kicks.

On the hand, you have guys like Steven Lopez, USA's 4x world champ and 2x Olympic gold medalist, an extremely smart and successful fighter. He has the most successful record in the history of the sport. But I think he is pretty boring to watch. He's not out to entertain you, he just wants to play the game smart and win.

Posted by: badachagi

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/11/08 12:36 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Badachagi: Are you in a position to offer any insight or opinion into how much "networking & jockeying" Prof Chang Ung can yield as IOC Member & ITF-NK president?

To accomplish what specifically?

To effect the continued inclusion of TKD as an Olympic sport. If he can, that of course may impact merger talks.

I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/11/08 09:12 AM

Quote:

[I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?

Yes of course it would & that is the present strategy he is employing. However I have doubt that the ITF&WTF will merge. I also think it is even more highly unlikely the IOC will accept the ITF as a different body to run the sport. So my question is, given this, as we seem to agree, do you think Prof Chang Ung will have the clout to move the next vote of the IOC to exclude TKD? If you think he has the clout, would he use it to exclude TKD, if the WTF doesn't merge or come to some acceptable solution to him, the ITF & NK?

Posted by: badachagi

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/12/08 12:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

[I should think that even an IOC VP who is head of the ITF NK would want TKD to remain in the games. Wouldn't it be easier to simply get the IOC to pressure/encourage the WTF to be more open to ITF competitors, rather than trying to get the IOC to accept a completely different federation to run the sport?

Yes of course it would & that is the present strategy he is employing. However I have doubt that the ITF&WTF will merge. I also think it is even more highly unlikely the IOC will accept the ITF as a different body to run the sport. So my question is, given this, as we seem to agree, do you think Prof Chang Ung will have the clout to move the next vote of the IOC to exclude TKD? If you think he has the clout, would he use it to exclude TKD, if the WTF doesn't merge or come to some acceptable solution to him, the ITF & NK?

Purely my own speculation, but I think he'd have to have some tremendous ability to persuade people to get TKD excluded altogether, for reasons I've already stated. But besides that, it doesn't strike me as a very honorable thing to do. Essentially what you're saying is that he'd threaten to get TKD removed from the Olympics if the WTF doesn't give him his way. That seems rather petty to me. It's sorta like someone who is upset at his neighbor for throwing a party without inviting him, and so he calls the cops to make them shut the party down out of spite.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/12/08 01:29 PM

Quote:

Purely my own speculation, but I think he'd have to have some tremendous ability to persuade people to get TKD excluded altogether, for reasons I've already stated. But besides that, it doesn't strike me as a very honorable thing to do. Essentially what you're saying is that he'd threaten to get TKD removed from the Olympics if the WTF doesn't give him his way. That seems rather petty to me. It's sorta like someone who is upset at his neighbor for throwing a party without inviting him, and so he calls the cops to make them shut the party down out of spite.

Yes & thanks. I think he is a popular IOC Member & I believe that the situation does exist where he can build a coalition of those who think the sport is boring, those that feel to many fighting sports are there already, those that wish to have their sports in, the karate groups, the WuShu groups & China.
In the end, I share your concern that it just may be a less than honorable thing to do. Although a good threat, that can be used to get someone's attention & providing needed leverage in negotions, I also am hesitant to say he would vote & lobby against TKD's continued inclusion, as it may actually hurt the SK & NK political situation. If that is a reality, I do not think NK will let him do that. JMHO

Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/20/08 02:56 PM

Regardless on my opinions regarding the "three ITFs" I cannot think that Chang Ung would fight to remove TKD from the Olympic Games. That would do nothing but hurt both Federations in the end.
Interestingly, in at least one Province (Quebec) there is a provincial governing body that does not differentiate between the two federations. If this was more wide spread then training teams could then draw on a larger talent pool and train the specific rules of competition. The unfortunate part of that is that it would have to be a "neutral" party that is not interested in the politics or power play that seems rife in the upper echelons of Martial Arts.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/20/08 03:30 PM

Politics and Power Plays will exist as long as there are ANY kind of organizations period (and I don't mean just martial arts)!

VDJ

Posted by: ITFJJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 02/20/08 03:31 PM

I actually had a sentence in my post that said that, but thought it would be too cynical so I erased it.

I guess more accurately, it would probably have to be a governmental organization whose political interests and plays for power were outside the realm of Martial Arts.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/10/08 03:06 PM

Looks like the ITF-NK & WTF had 2 more days of meetings in Beijing, China on March 1st & 2nd, 2008. They issued a joint statement:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/10/08 04:11 PM

ITFUNITY

I know I have always stated that the school I train at is WTF affiliated but I just remembered that we also have an ITF logo on the window next to the WTF logo. Is it possible that we are a member of both? When I went on the ITF site to read about the unification talks I saw ITF logo and I remembered we have one too.

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. Why would we have both logos when he is president of this states WTF chapter? I am sooooo confused! When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.

Posted by: VDJ

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/10/08 05:10 PM

Quote:

Looks like the ITF-NK & WTF had 2 more days of meetings in Beijing, China on March 1st & 2nd, 2008. They issued a joint statement:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

What does it all really mean ? You will still have practioners on both sides who will hold animosity, you have 2 other ITF orgs still claiming to be the "Original" and what is it really uniting ? I know the quick answer is the Korea's, but TKD is a global thing with many different opinions and politics, more so than any other art I can think of. The funny thing I am seeing in this, and its not really a bad thing I guess, is the compromise they are seeking with each other. And lets be honest, when it came to TKD the General didn't really have the reputation for compromise, so where will all the compromise stand with the practioners who see it as the General's art and those who don't. I'm not trying to be a downer, I am just really curious as to what is trying to be accomplished.

VDJ

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/10/08 08:59 PM

Quote:

ITFUNITY

I know I have always stated that the school I train at is WTF affiliated but I just remembered that we also have an ITF logo on the window next to the WTF logo. Is it possible that we are a member of both? When I went on the ITF site to read about the unification talks I saw ITF logo and I remembered we have one too.

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. Why would we have both logos when he is president of this states WTF chapter? I am sooooo confused! When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.

ITF

Disregard this post I am an ediot. The logo I remember is simalir colors and round thats about it.

Red in the face

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/10/08 10:04 PM

Quote:

www.internationaltaekwon-dofederation.com

I know the quick answer is the Korea's, but TKD is a global thing with many different opinions and politics, more so than any other art I can think of. The funny thing I am seeing in this, and its not really a bad thing I guess, is the compromise they are seeking with each other. And lets be honest, when it came to TKD the General didn't really have the reputation for compromise, so where will all the compromise stand with the practioners who see it as the General's art and those who don't. I'm not trying to be a downer, I am just really curious as to what is trying to be accomplished. VDJ

Yes, but the agreement signed by the ITF & WTF in the early 1980s had loads of compromise, with more concessions from the ITF. However the WTF never executed or honored the signature by their Secty Genl. BTW, the intitial meeting was arranged by the SK Consulate General stationed abroad. So it shows the level of politics involved.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/10/08 10:07 PM

Quote:

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.

No problem Von1, BTW, how long has he been out of Korea? And what is his background? How old?
these clues can help me offer some insight. You can PM me if you wish.

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/11/08 11:31 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Sounds like a silly question but as I have stated before my instructor is from Korea and even though he has been in the states a long time communicating with him on historical matters is difficult. Too much gets lost in his English interpretation of the facts. This is part of why I am limited on historical knowledge, the rest is my fault. When I question him on WTF, ITF matters all I get is one word answer and a big smile. Politics is the answer, and I believe the smile is him wanting to better explain but he realizes his communication skills are not good enough.

No problem Von1, BTW, how long has he been out of Korea? And what is his background? How old?
these clues can help me offer some insight. You can PM me if you wish.

His name is Grand Master Sang Sup Kil he is 64 yrs. old. and he has been in the states since 1980. His younger brother Master Young Sup Kil is here also. He is a fantastic instructor but not well at long involved verbal exchanges. He speaks highly of all TKD when he does speak, but like I said these conversations are far and few and not real involved. He can be googled. Pay no mind to the kils web site it is really corny, one of the worst I have seen and does not represent the organization well at all.

I realize that considering Grand Master Sang Sup Kil"s age and the time period he arrived in the states he was most likely sent here to promote sport TKD but he is much more than sport and trains students accordingly. I have never once herd a negative comment regarding any TKD organization from him, he seems to admire any participation in the art of TKD. He lives for TKD.

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/11/08 04:12 PM

ITFUNITY

Should have thought of this earlier,

http://www.kilstkdonline.com/grandmaster1.html

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/11/08 10:59 PM

kool!
thanks

Posted by: von1

Re: Union of ITF and WTF - 03/11/08 11:11 PM

If you learn anything of interest regarding this please share.

Union of ITF and WTF