Combat Hapkido
Posted by: tarpshack
Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 11:41 AM
My brother's friend is taking a martial arts called Combat Hapkido. Has anyone heard anything about it? I get the sense that it's a self defense style. Has anyone here studied it? I'd like to know more about it and hear from people who have practiced it.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 11:50 AM
You know I've heard about this Combat hapkido lately. From the stuff I've read it's considered a more "reality" self defense system. I suppose instead of like traditional hapikido where they deal with all sorts of situations. Combat hapkido focuses more on modern based self defense situations. From all that I've read I've concluded that combat hapkido has adapted only the most practical techniques of hapkido and included some weapons portion to is curriculum, most likely stick or cane self defense.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 11:54 AM
It was founded by GM John Pelligrini (do a google search and you will find his webpage I'm certain). I know several people who train in it and speak highly of its effectivness. It is pretty popular with LEO's.
VDJ
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 02:27 PM
Well... I have seen numerous references to it over the years. It was given widespread exposure in TKDT years ago. It's pretty controversial within hapkido circles for a whole host of reasons
I had dialogue with a couple of CH guys. They both had a king size chip on their shoulder and seemed to think theirs was the ultimate for self defence. One was the guy who claimed he could beat Tyson (and me) up and the other one was the guy who likened me to dog ****
Obviously I was not too impressed. They seem to have an attitude that get's people's back up. For example Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA were two of their pet peeves. Particularly the fact that a Sgt Larssen had introduced MMA training into the army combatives programme. They were both pretty disrespectful about this person.
Things like that seemed to really anger them. No need to guess what they thought the US Army should have been learning.
There's a video on youtube of a CH black belt grading.
No comment
Posted by: tarpshack
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 03:37 PM
Quote:
There's a video on youtube of a CH black belt grading.
No comment
Are you referring to the Defense Against 5 Attackers video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upYOz1wDRH8
I did notice on the International Combat Hapkido Federation webpage they state that "in 1999 the Combat Hapkido System was officially recognized and accredited as a legitimate 'Kwan' of HapKiDo by the WKF/KKA (Kido-Hae)." So why is it controversial in the Hapkido circles?
From what I'm reading here and on their website, it seems like a stripped down Hapkido focused on self-defense in modern day real world situations.
Mostly my curiousity stemmed from hearing of fourth blacks coming from this system in four years, and I wasn't sure what it was about.
Posted by: Prizewriter
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 03:56 PM
Quote:
Well.. For example Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA were two of their pet peeves. Particularly the fact that a Sgt Larssen had introduced MMA training into the army combatives programme. They were both pretty disrespectful about this person.
Ironic that, as it was a Senior BJJ practioner who helped develop the groundwork program found in CH.
I have trained with Mark Shuey, a senior weapons instructor for CH who specializes in the Cane. Highly impressed.
The only thing that bothered me about CH is the lack (or seemingly the lack) of resistance training.
Posted by: vegantkd
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 04:38 PM
That video was funny. I usually keep to myself instead of insulting another martial art but if that was a black belt test I think the entire art of Combat Hapkido should fail based on that performance. That's right, the entire art of Combat Hapkido is a white belt now. Start over.
And first off, if you're defending against 5 guys, you're not submitting, you're breaking. So to be an accurate simulation, none of those people should've been getting back up. If I have your arm locked and your buddies are coming after me, I'm breaking that arm so you don't get back up. And I think at one point when he was punching the mitts he actually missed. And is it me or was he tapping all the targets. They might as well not have been holding targets for as light as he was hitting. I'm sorry but that video really disgusted me. All in all, it kind of looks like how my friends and I would joke around if we were drunk. And it would still look nicer.
Posted by: crablord
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 05:12 PM
I liked the way that the "totally serious attackers" walked up behind him and grabbed his shoulder, and only one at a time. Hed get owned in a real 5 v 1 lol
Posted by: EarlWeiss
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/13/06 05:17 PM
If any CH guys bad mouth BJJ just ask them why their instructor works so closely with Carlson Gracie Jr. ? Been to some seminars with Pelligrini, and at least one was team taught by Carlson Gracie jr. They were both at another seminar series and had a mutual admiration thing going. One reaso I went to Pelligrini's seminar was because so many people bad mouth him, what he does, and his rank as well as his training system. I found him to be quite prsoneable at the seminars and he did not bad mouth anything. He was pretty straightforward telling you to use what worked for you and that his program could be used to supplement another art you were teaching as well as help market to the public from the non traditional aspect of no excessive uniforms , formalities etc.
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 07:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
There's a video on youtube of a CH black belt grading.
No comment
Are you referring to the Defense Against 5 Attackers video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=upYOz1wDRH8
I did notice on the International Combat Hapkido Federation webpage they state that "in 1999 the Combat Hapkido System was officially recognized and accredited as a legitimate 'Kwan' of HapKiDo by the WKF/KKA (Kido-Hae)." So why is it controversial in the Hapkido circles?
From what I'm reading here and on their website, it seems like a stripped down Hapkido focused on self-defense in modern day real world situations.
Mostly my curiousity stemmed from hearing of fourth blacks coming from this system in four years, and I wasn't sure what it was about.
I can't comment on how good it is or isn't because I haven't seen it. All I can do is comment on the attitude of a few students I have had dialogue with.
If you want to find out more I would suggest you got to the Bullshido site and do a search. But keep an open mind in view of any criticisms made.
In other word try to form your own conclussions based on the evidence you find.
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 07:57 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Well.. For example Brazilian Jiu Jitsu and MMA were two of their pet peeves. Particularly the fact that a Sgt Larssen had introduced MMA training into the army combatives programme. They were both pretty disrespectful about this person.
Ironic that, as it was a Senior BJJ practioner who helped develop the groundwork program found in CH.
I have trained with Mark Shuey, a senior weapons instructor for CH who specializes in the Cane. Highly impressed.
The only thing that bothered me about CH is the lack (or seemingly the lack) of resistance training.
Well I too found their critisim of BJJ strange in light of their association with Carlson Gracie Jr. They definately claimed it was no good for self defence. In fact they singled out a particularly well known Gracie (based in Manhattan) and an apparent street fight he had (or rather their version of a fight he had) to label BJJ as ineffective for self defence. So much they were saying was based on their own prejudices and hearsay. Much of it was completely false but they persisted with it anyway.
With regard to BJJ in CH I seemed to get the impression they viewed CG as kind of less senior than Pellegrini. This is just my impression. Also I think they insunuated CG was learning CH. It was like...well yeah we do have BJJ as part of the syllabus but the real stuff is the CH.
I never did get to the botton of it. Others tried also but it was quite difficult to get a definitive answer.
With regard to Larssen.(btw his trainig video can be found on google video and is a pretty good introduction to BJJ). What he actually stated was that the army combatives programme was based on MMA training that included things such as western boxing, kali, wrestling and BJJ. They conveniently chose to ignore all the other stuff and trashed him and his inclussion of BJJ.
Slightly disingeneous I though.
I'm sure Edward (ITF Unity), Vince and Earl Weiss remember this debate. If I am in anyway off-mark I will gladly correct myself or retract anything I deem necessary.
MasL
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 04:51 PM
Yes I remember some of this debate as it started just before I stopped going to that board on a regular basis. I also remember that some of what was said by the two which you are refering to was taken out of context and had some spin put on it. The problem is I can't remember exactly (though I believe it was about Mr. Gracie and BJJ) what it was and with the board not available to go back and check the archives I can't elaborate further.
VDJ
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 05:35 PM
Ahhhh ... you remember the debate, the spin but no details
Cheers Vince
Hey I wish they had smilies like this at Online:
(for Mr One Shot of Vodka) LOL
Posted by: gojuwarrior1
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 05:50 PM
Why do people post those kind of videos? Do they think they are showing off? That stuff is a disgrace. I went to a CH seminar once and let me tell you it was the most upsetting thing i have witnessed. Everytime the uke would attack the "instructor" They would have to reset because he was getting attacked "wrong" and everything was done without any enthusiasim. After the seminar i was asked what i though of it and all i could say was its more geared toward women and its not my thing.
my wife scrutinized me all the way home for being so disreaspectful but i though i was being nice?
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 07:38 PM
Yes Mas I do ! I also remember that I didn't post in any of it as well, as I was doing more lurking than posting and I was getting fed up over there. Maybe we need to bring the 2 indiviuals that you are refering to in to the debate here as I'm sure it is more fresh in their minds as they were involved in it and I wasn't !
VDJ
Posted by: MA_Student
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/14/06 09:35 PM
Not sure about combat HKD, but I know a guy who's learned HKD since he was 4. He lived in Korea until like... now. That stuff is real aggressive. They don't stop after submitting you. He told me that he sees a lot of ppl here kinda stopping after the arm is locked. In Korea they pull your hair, choke you out, all of that is in the curriculum.
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/15/06 04:44 AM
Quote:
Yes Mas I do ! I also remember that I didn't post in any of it as well, as I was doing more lurking than posting and I was getting fed up over there. Maybe we need to bring the 2 indiviuals that you are refering to in to the debate here as I'm sure it is more fresh in their minds as they were involved in it and I wasn't !
VDJ
Well Vince you must do what you feel is right. If you want to invite them that is your perogative. I'm surprised you haven't contacted them already to be honest
I was merely making observation based on my own limited experince with two students of this art. I should remind you Vince that although Online is closed much can still be found there using google. For example even without really trying I found the thread containing the post by "The Truth" who claimed to be a Gracie student and who offers a rebuke to them both for their claims about RG.
This is how it works Vince. Go to google. Type in itf on-line then a few words, for exapmle you could type in marvin, Tim and Murphy. When the results come up look in the cache.
Still so much information out there.
All the best
MasL
Posted by: tarpshack
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/15/06 06:59 AM
Quote:
Not sure about combat HKD, but I know a guy who's learned HKD since he was 4. He lived in Korea until like... now. That stuff is real aggressive. They don't stop after submitting you. He told me that he sees a lot of ppl here kinda stopping after the arm is locked. In Korea they pull your hair, choke you out, all of that is in the curriculum.
I'm pretty well convinced that Hapkido and Combat Hapkido are NOT the same thing. Just looking at the International Hapkido Federation webpage for the minimum time in rank requirements adds up to over 11 years to get to fourth black.
( here: http://www.itatkd.com/ihfmintime.html )
That's some serious time, effort, and dedication. As I mentioned before, my brothers friend made fourth black in Combat Hapkido in four years. So it seems to me that CH makes for a good self defense class and even a supplement to other martial arts, but it doesn't sound like something I'd want to take by itself.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/15/06 08:56 AM
no system is perfect. Besides rank isn' really important unless you want to impress others. It's your skill that counts. Can you actually use what you know, does it serve you well. Rank can be bought, besides some schools have better teachers than others, different methods of teaching produce different types of students. So who knows mabe theyare prodigies an they learn really fast. Bruce Lee has all these fancy names and he only recived formal training for 3 years. But he could apply what he new and he could expand on the knowledge he had.
Learn the technique + application = underline principle = variations of the same technique.
Posted by: StuartA
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/15/06 09:50 PM
Quote:
...my wife scrutinized me all the way home for being so disreaspectful but i though i was being nice?
LOL - that was funny!
I don't know the guys, so wont comment on the overall system but I did watch the vid and it looked more like circle training to me, but with a lot less vigour!
I read on the video clip that this was at the end of a 3 hour dan grading (!), but thats no excuse for the performance portrayed - the BB grading clip I posted has the guys sparring about 3/4 through, they are knackered as well and it doesnt look like that!
TBH.. if that was a BB grading he should have failed and so should the others who were attacking, to allow a pass simply gives them a false sense of skill, security and probibly over confidence which will sorely let them down when the time comes! If it was just a video clip, then I take it all back and dont care either way! As a clip representitive of a dan grading it doesnt do much to help propagate their system!
Stuart
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 05:59 AM
Ditto
Posted by: tarpshack
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 08:01 AM
Quote:
Can you actually use what you know, does it serve you well.
The only trouble I have with this is you won't really know until you are in a situation where you really need it. (Or if you're a bouncer, bodyguard or law enforcement) Combat Hapkido, for example, sounds like it must work well if it is taught to LEO's, but other self-defense classes may only make you feel falsely more confident and safe if their techniques don't work in actuality. Building up false confidence is one of the worse things I imagine a martial art could do.
Quote:
Bruce Lee has all these fancy names and he only recived formal training for 3 years. But he could apply what he new and he could expand on the knowledge he had.
Three years of formal training, but not three years total spent studying, training, practicing, and learning right?
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 09:31 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Can you actually use what you know, does it serve you well.
The only trouble I have with this is you won't really know until you are in a situation where you really need it. (Or if you're a bouncer, bodyguard or law enforcement) Combat Hapkido, for example, sounds like it must work well if it is taught to LEO's, but other self-defense classes may only make you feel falsely more confident and safe if their techniques don't work in actuality. Building up false confidence is one of the worse things I imagine a martial art could do.
Most LEO training is to merely introduce prospective officers to alternative means of force. This is done primarily to relieve or protect the departments & governments of some liability issues. IMHO few LEOs continue to work these techniques they were only exposed to in their basic training (Academy) & not many enroll in formal SD classes to supplement this introduction, much like many LEOs do not go to the range or target practice on their own, outside of their regularly scheduled department shooting re-qualifications. I am also not aware of any departments that do follow up or re-qualification of their initial defensive tactics or arrest techniques.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 01:44 PM
I was told by an officer that most LEO's do not put much faith into the martial arts. For them they are only concerned with the life or death scenerios. Meaning when they pproach someone they are not thinking they have to preotect themselves froma kick or punch. They appreach every assailant as a potential murderer who is armed and ready to take their lives. With this kind o mindset, they prefer to depend on their gun and baton. More so their gun, as he demonstrate just how easy it is for someone to pll a knife on a ready officer. A few controlling and arresting locks is all they need to know, enough so hat the two or three cops at the scene can get the cuffs on the bad guy.
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 02:01 PM
Quote:
I was told by an officer that most LEO's do not put much faith into the martial arts. For them they are only concerned with the life or death scenerios. Meaning when they pproach someone they are not thinking they have to preotect themselves froma kick or punch. They appreach every assailant as a potential murderer who is armed and ready to take their lives. With this kind o mindset, they prefer to depend on their gun and baton. More so their gun, as he demonstrate just how easy it is for someone to pll a knife on a ready officer. A few controlling and arresting locks is all they need to know, enough so hat the two or three cops at the scene can get the cuffs on the bad guy.
Agreed, but my bigger point is the few controlling locks are something they are simply introduced to. Few, if any train them on their own, so THEY can OWN the techniques. There is little if any subsequent training or re-certification like there is with the guns. So therefore, it is done usually to insulate the dept or govt from lawsuits, so they can say they TAUGHT it in the ACADEMY. However, most of us know, that if we don't use it, we lose it.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 05:34 PM
Quote:
I was told by an officer that most LEO's do not put much faith into the martial arts. For them they are only concerned with the life or death scenerios. Meaning when they pproach someone they are not thinking they have to preotect themselves froma kick or punch. They appreach every assailant as a potential murderer who is armed and ready to take their lives. With this kind o mindset, they prefer to depend on their gun and baton. More so their gun, as he demonstrate just how easy it is for someone to pll a knife on a ready officer. A few controlling and arresting locks is all they need to know, enough so hat the two or three cops at the scene can get the cuffs on the bad guy.
This is odd, because I know quite a few LEO's & CO's and ALL but one train in MA's on a regular basis. This includes my instructor who is a retired state trooper who now teaches MA's full time. She has several students that either attend group class or private instruction for defensive tactical instruction.
VDJ
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/16/06 11:38 PM
Sir:
Ask her how helpful, useful or effective she thought the defensive tactics training in her Academy was?
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 05:42 PM
This is from a post I made on the thread "ICHF or traditional" on this forum 6/15/06
Hi,
I am a 3rd degree in Combat Hapkido so I will try to clarify what Combat Hapkido is.
Combat hapkido is Traditional Hapkido with a few changes.
The Base art is Hapkido,with the additions of JKD/wing chun hand techniques (such as the passs trap trap strikes)which allow for an easy transfer of energy and allows for a better ability to capture a hand or limb,as opposed to grabbing the hand in the air when delivered with intent.
Combat Hapkido is a stand alone art or an art added to an exsisting school/style of other arts,some such as Tae Kwon Do.
Combat Hapkido is not a ninjitsu based art,(if this is taught at a specific school it is the instructors other styles,not part of CH).
Combat Hapkido also has added,brought in ,other masters to expand the field of exposure for the students,so aside from Traditional based Hapkido arts the ICHF has,Ground Grappling with Carlson Gracie Jr,Cane Master Mark Shuey,Filipino Martial arts with Master Meligrito and other Great Masters.
Combat Hapkido has the goal of street usage(as does all hapkido) it is not used in sport so though we learn High kicks and high throws,they have been modified to the extent that for street application kicks are kept from the midsection down and the throws are not high lifting throws.
So CH is Hapkido with the addition of JKD hands and modified throws(students can attend seminars with the masters listed to expand their desired knowledge base)
breathing exercises are done in some schools but are not mandatory as part of CH(breathing and meditation were added to Hapkidos founder ,Choi's Art by GM Ji Han Jae.
Hapkido ,as aikido,are from daito ryu aiki Jujutsu,hapkido is not from aikido.
I hope this has clarified some thoughts on Combat hapkido,I will gladly address other questions on the subject.
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 06:28 PM
I am also the person who is being cited as having a problem with BJJ and MMA.
I post on many forums,of which this is one,I post on self Defense forum,Karate korner,Hocks site,Senshido and several military sites as well as other sites.
My point to BJJ is that it is sport and is not usable,nor is it trained ,nor was it intended to be the battlefield combatives portion for the US army and has been so stated by then SFC Larsen.
SFC Larsen created his combatives program using GBJJ as the entry point,to create an aggressive attitude in the troops ,to build unit cohesion and to be used to create an army wide field of trainers and competitors with hopes of having some make it to the UFC or some other forum.
(If one is interested the army has a Combatives Championship,it has grown to be a 3 day event full of fighters,so SFC larsen has gotten his desire hasn't he)
It is not intended to be the H2H portion of Battlefield combatives,SFC Larsen has created other avenues for that but FEW reach that level of training,the majority reach the GBJJ portion and they are told "PIN and HOLD till your Buddy arrives with a Weapon" not really a statement for Battlefield combatives in which one is to terminate the enemy.
The comment about gracie BJJ on the street is in reference to Renzo Gracie Breaking his knee in a street assault in which he went for a shoot on the attacker.
My point on that post, as with all my posts, is that if one trains sport specific methods ,in a Gym,on mats and they try to replicate those moves on the street ,many are not doable ,usable or desirable.
If one trains primarily in sport with brief periods of scenario,Reality based attacks,then when the crap hits the fan they will resort to sport moves and try things like going to the ground,because sport is what is ingrained in their fighting style.
I do not advocate the ground and if one finds themselves on the ground their first duty is to get back up,not to spar ,and roll around in ground fighting,we want and teach ground survival,we do not intentionally go to the ground.
In Combat hapkidos usage of BJJ under Carlson Gracie Jr,the majority of training was to enable us to use ground fighting tactics to get up,not pin,submit or tie up an attacker.
For those in Combat Hapkido who wanted more ground and Ground sport Carlson Gracie Jr was available for instruction in Traditional Gracie BJJ.
If people choose to read what I have to say on military use of BJJ,or BJJ use on the street then feel free to look at the other sites I post on as I have several thousand posts available and in all of them I say "Train sport for sport,but if you intend to use sport for street take those skills and train them against street based sceanrios and attacks by non compliant people"
The skills are their,the techniques are there just learn to apply them in the context of street,which is awareness,avoidance,pre conflict dialogue,contact and post contact,many in sport do nothing buit the fight side and this is no always needed or conducive on the street.
I hope this clarifies my points.
My Background:
3rd degree in Combat Hapkido
2nd degree in TKD
Instructor under Jim Wagner
Training in traditional Hapkido,Jujitsu,Judo,Karate,Krav maga,Commando Krav Maga,Kapap,WWII similar combatives,Wing Chun,Boxing,FMA,Aikido and GBJJ as well as other Reaity based arts.
I will gladly list my instructors in these arts as I have done so on other sites,it also allows me to have a valid,trained opinion on subjects in relation to the arts.
I have also served in the US Marine Corps,The US Army,seved in Special forces,airborne,scuba qualified and a graduate of the German Ranger school and British Royal Marine commando School,so I have an educated opinion on Military subjects and military combatives.
If anyone has any questions on my opinions or my training or about Combat Hapkido feel free to ask.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 06:36 PM
Quote:
Sir:
Ask her how helpful, useful or effective she thought the defensive tactics training in her Academy was?
As she became one of their instrutors, I would say she found them to be quite effective. She has had various incidents (with witnesses) in which she has shared with us.She has also shared with us some of the incidents in which they were not so succesful and needed her back up for assistance.
VDJ
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 06:40 PM
Some other points on this thread:
LEOs?
LEO's ,for the most part, are not interested in Martial arts or self defense ,they learn a minimum in the academies and those who work in countries that use weapons find most rely on the weapons as the Primary means of control.
Second is Mace,third is Night stick or collapsable baton.
The problem is they do not have the time to learn a usable art to spend the time needed for joint locks,pain compliance or throws,they are trained in quick functional techniques and are taught punches and kicks,baton use and firearms along with radio use to call for help.
Very Few LEO's go out of their way to use their time to learn a usable art,if they do they are a small percent,also the art they use maybe seen (if used) as being more than or against departmental policy and they can be held liable.
Posted by: StuartA
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 06:40 PM
Quote:
If anyone has any questions on my opinions or my training or about Combat Hapkido feel free to ask.
Hi Jim,
I have a question if I may. As someone who trains in the art, what are your thoughts on the video posted of it earlier on in this thread?
Cheers,
Stuart
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 07:14 PM
Hi Stuart,
I must clarify that I do not know this student nor his school criteria.
From my understanding this was a black Belt test as well as other ranked testing.
I understand that this gentleman was testing for a few hours prior to this round robin attack and defend practise.
After his test he was pitted against a group to keep him moving for 2-3 minutes,using his training and fighting and defending,if we look at the clip we see some students had shields so it was not a full out grab and defend scenario it was just a give me two minutes or technique,circles to maintain focus on the group,cuts through the group and kicking or striking when the bags come close.
we also do not know if this was the end of the test,as he may have done more after this clip,or he may have been doing this 5 on 1 for several two minute rounds prior to what we see.
(not unlike Kick boxing when certain numbers of kicks must be made and they deliver them with a half hearted attempt just to get them out of the way)
It is a form of Randori if you will,(though this is not aikido and Randori specific is not a general CH requirement)in which the student must move and perform,if after several hours of testing he were actually attacked by the five,he or others maybe hurt as he is working off adrenaline pump and injuries could happen.
If he were to be grabbed and required to defend or preempt and actually make contact to show enough pain,power and focus to stop each attacker,injuries could happen and it may not require 2-3 minutes of movement,as the group could overwhelm him or he truly hurt them to stop them.
If one has seen true Aikido Randori or Seagal clips of his randori we see non compliant attacks to the student being promoted,but again this is not aikido,and when we see randori with instructors we see compliant falls and self throws.
I would not base this student,his school nor Combat Hapkido on this less than 2 minute clip of a several hour day.
Again this is my view but each school runs students through the instructors criteria as well as the CH criteria.
Some schools who focus on other aspects add those to the CH testing like BJJ,FMA,or what ever so each school has a minimum to do to promote but many exceed those minimums.
I hope this helps.
In our students last Black Belt exam we had three men test,we do not do Randori,nor do we test all day,we tested those lower levels over the last few years so now they must show they can apply methods against specific attacks,so the student is attacked and must perform 78 defenses against various attacks.
We add a sense of realism in attack,but this also amps up the students resposnes,I ended up with split lip,a black eye and a hyper extended elbow and this was at medium speed.
I hope this helps give a form of perspectives on what we are seeing in this clip
Posted by: StuartA
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 07:38 PM
Hi Jim,
Thanks for your reply
Quote:
I must clarify that I do not know this student nor his school criteria.
I wasnt thinking it was your school, I was just interested on your views of it as a CH practioner yourself.
Quote:
From my understanding this was a black Belt test as well as other ranked testing.
Yup, hence why I commented about it (as I just posted a BB grading video myself)
Quote:
we also do not know if this was the end of the test,as he may have done more after this clip,or he may have been doing this 5 on 1 for several two minute rounds prior to what we see.
I understand what your saying but surely if someone was going to extract a clip from a video to represent their grading/style/whatever they would pick a decent portion of the film, hence why the standard was called into question (ie. if this was a good clip - what about the rest?)
Quote:
not unlike Kick boxing when certain numbers of kicks must be made and they deliver them with a half hearted attempt just to get them out of the way
Yes, and if it was a grading they would fail due to their heart-heartedness I would hope!
Quote:
If he were to be grabbed and required to defend or preempt and actually make contact to show enough pain,power and focus to stop each attacker,injuries could happen
I agree, but he lacked both focus and power when hitting pads not people!
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Seagal clips of his randori
This I would love to see, dont suppose you have any links?
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I would not base this student,his school nor Combat Hapkido on this less than 2 minute clip of a several hour day.
Well normally I wouldnt, but like I said, it states its a BB grading and common sense dictates the editor would have picked a decent clip (hence we can wonder about the rest!). And TBH, no matter wat part of the grading this was at, if it was part of one I held they would have failed. Like I said in my post earlier, we held a 7 hour grading with sparring 3/4 of the way through, the students were indeed knackered but at no point did they look like that (even the guy who did actually fail).
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I hope this helps.
I appreciate your answer and what i was really getting at was 2 fold:
1- Is this clip representative of CH? (Personally dont think it is, but I havnt seen much of it at all)
2- Based on the video, would you have passed this person?
I can only form an opinion of what I see and know of my own art/grdaings. Your an insider, so to speak, so I think your answers to the questions above would be enlightening, though feel free not to reply if you dont want to as Im only asking out of interest, not to put you on the spot or anything.
Cheers,
Stuart
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 09:48 PM
The clip shows the Testing student and other students laughing and having fun,so is it part of the Test? I do not know.
What is the intent of the exercise? I do not know.
Did this Gentleman pass his test?
I do not know
I see his instructor and other higher ranks in the left hand side of the video and they are smiling so did they approve of the way this exercise was run? I do not know but would imagine they did as they gave no corrections or instructions to the attackers or the testing student.
Is it an indicator of combat Hapkido?
Not as done at my school,but again I do not know the intent of the clip or what it is too show after three hours of testing or if it was even part of testing.
(a five on one is not a normal test expectation)
As said each school is run by a qualified instructor in CH as well as what ever other arts they teach,so if this student passed it was because he met the criteria of his instructor.
Sorry my answers are not more direct and clear cut but I cannot assume what the clip portrays,just what a caption says.
(now if that was at our school i could be more defined in my response)
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/18/06 10:09 PM
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 07:04 AM
JimH
Welcome to the forum. However, I should warn you that this forum is more closely moderated than ITF-Online. In particular, as I understand it, threats of physical violence are out of the question. So play nice Jim.
And once again ... welcome.
MasL
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 07:07 AM
Posted at ITF-Online by The Truth:
I am a long-time Renzo Gracie student and am actually good friends with Renzo. I would like to start off by saying that the misinformation and misunterstanding on this forum is PAINFUL.
JimH, You are spreading rumors that and misinformation that you neither have proof of, nor understand. For instance:
I would also point out that if a UFC/pride competitor forgets he is on the street and goes to take the opponent to the ground and fails,and breaks his knee cap ,what does that say about all those who talk of going to the ground in real life who have never done it on hard surface no less concrete.
Renzo was involved in an altercation and his kneecap did break, which he didn't realize until well after the fight. However, he did NOT hit his knee on the concrete doing a takedown. Renzo was weeks out of ACL replacement sugery and the kneecap was weakened due to the surgical process. This is common after ACL surgery. Just the simple stress on the knee during a shoot (in which the knee did not hit the ground) split the patella. Renzo was still able to easily defeat his attackers and went on his way. This is also confirmed by other people I know who were present at the time of the altercation.
Much later on, the knee swelled up and he realized that the patella broke. His surgeon confirmed that this is common after ACL surgery. Any type of action, where stress is placed upon the legs could accomplish this break after ACL surgery, such as running or jogging.
So, to clarify, Renzo did not "forget that he was in the street", nor did his knee ever hit the concrete. His art was very effective and he was able to subdue his attackers and go home to his family.
Jimh:
Again My point on the Gracies is that they Fought in the street to develop their art,the sons compete in the ring ,the sons have not fought in the street.
Once again, you are grossly misinformed and are continuing to spread misinformation. "The sons" you speak of actualy grew up fighting in the street. The streets of Rio De Janeiro, are quite rough. Renzo, himself has been involved in countless street fights growing up, as have his brothers and cousins. It's part of growing up in the region, especially when you have a name for yourself. The art of BJJ was originally intended for the street and it was refined there. This is the art that Renzo and his family have developed and refined themselves through various altercations.
Renzo has been bitten, people have attempted to eye gouge him, scratch him, hit him with weapons, etc, etc. He and his family are not strangers to these tactics. BJJ, as it was originally developed is designed to deal with tactics such as these. People often forget that if one is able to control their opponent on the ground, that they will have a better position from which they can use these very same tactics.
One more thing,
Jimh: Many of the MMA/NHB people who train do not employ scenarios,for example Matt Thornton/SBG does not believe in scenarios but he says the participants are able to easily switch over to street combat,which I do not believe.This is also the problem with US army combatives training now.They are using sport and saying it provides the reality of combat,when is the last time an MMA guy rolled or fought with 40-100 pounds on their back,canteens and magazines,pistol?
Matt Thorton is on the money, IMO. By the way, what soldier is going to grapple whe he has a pistol available? Think about your scenario for a second. Unarmed combat for the modern soldier is extremely rare, and many believe it is a waste of time, as most soldiers will have a side arm or at least a knife. But, reality shows that many scuffles and altercations DO end up on the ground, and when subduing an insurgent or suspect,it may be necessary to control them. This is why many NYC cops train at Renzos and swear by the techniques that they use to subdue suspects and resisting criminals while they are being arrested.
Matt Throton is not the only person who has written about the importance of sport. My friend John Danaher, a black belt at Renzos academy and author of two books on Jiu Jitsu writes about it's importance in this article:
http://www.realfighting.com/0702/danaherframe.html?l=6088208Here is another article he wrote on the importance of fighting in the clinch:
http://www.realfighting.com/0503/jdanaherframe.htmlEven if you disagree, please take the time to read these articles. I may or may not have the time to come back here and post again, as I am a full-time student and also teach martial arts as well. I just wanted to clarify the Renzo rumor and post my opinions on the importance of sport training.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 09:52 AM
Quote:
JimH
Welcome to the forum. However, I should warn you that this forum is more closely moderated than ITF-Online. In particular, as I understand it, threats of physical violence are out of the question. So play nice Jim.
And once again ... welcome.
MasL
Just in case you missed it Mas, JimH has posted here in the past. His first post on this thread he is refering to a post he made back in June of this year regarding CH.
VDJ
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 10:44 AM
I have a question about this video. Where does it state that it is CH ? The title is "Defensive against 5 attackers". I see a Kuk Sul Won Flag, a Korean Flag, a clock, an American Flag and I can't quite make out the last flag. Is it CH Association Flag ? I don't believe this vid to be a true representation of CH as I don't believe that it is a CH dojang, at least I haven't seen any evidence of it in the vid. And the execution of the techniques are terrible, the sweeps in particular !
VDJ
Posted by: MikeChaff
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 11:13 AM
Er, the video description reads "Combat Hapkido Black Belt test, this was the last thing we had to do after 3 hours of exhausting fun. Defensive against 5 attackers."
The video tags include the keywords 'Combat', 'Hapkido', 'Black', 'Belt' and 'Martial Arts'.
Where doesn't it say that it's Comabt HKD??
Posted by: JimH
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 12:11 PM
The video clip is of Combat Hapkido,as the uniform and patch show as well as the caption.
With a little search the school is in Michigan and they teach TKD,Kuk Sool Won and Combat Hapkido.
If the student testing is the poster of the clip,he is proud of it and if he was promoted congratulations to him as he must have met the requirements of his Instructor and school.
.........................
The Renzo Gracie incident was talked about by Renzo in an interview during a pride match in which he was to fight,but he showed up in a cast and told of the WHOLE INCIDENT and Injury.
I believe it was Pride Bushido III,it was posted on the other forum from which misinformed segments seem to be reemerging,lol.
......................
I have been a reader of this forum for a long while and began posting when the ICHF VS Traditional thread appeared 5-6 months ago.
I have also been posting on many other forums for years from which many on this site know me.
I have met some members of this board at various seminars.
I have met and trained with the Mr Caile at several seminars ,the last one was with Moni Aizik in New York,where Mr Caile ,Moni and I sat and discussed Karate,TKD,Aikido as well as Jujitsu concepts as applied in reality.
I am sure Mr Caile was sent the E Mail from from Moni with the class picture,I am in the back row far right.(6-1 Blondish/grey hair,lol)
I have also been on the Jim Wagner website pictured during the NY instructors school.
I have also been pictured in Real Fighting .com also in relation to Jim Wagners instructors course as well as having trained in WRs RBSD classes and attended his seminars.
I am also pictured on my schools Bronx Hapkido web site.
I am for real and not a poser,I have vast experiences in my 36-37 years of training,vast knowledge in several fields and arts and I use those qualifiers in my discussions,discussions which many times are opinions or likes and dislikes.
If people disagree with me and my points, fine,then debate them with the same experiences,knowledge and thoughts I use.
People should be able to give their thoughts and opinions and not rehashed ,other peoples second hand posts,prove to be a martial artists or knowledgable in the fighting arts first hand.
The main topic was Combat hapkido,but it became a thread about a closed forum and posts about people rather than topic discussion.
At least this forum is moderated
What was the point of combat hapkido members,ME,and BJJ and Larsens army combatives in this topic?
Again if people want my opinions/views on Military combatives (14 years experience active and reserve)and BJJ/MMA read my other posts here and on the sites posted or ask me here,as I have posted here on the Combatives threads and Lee Morrison,read my other posts)
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 01:32 PM
Quote:
Quote:
JimH
Welcome to the forum. However, I should warn you that this forum is more closely moderated than ITF-Online. In particular, as I understand it, threats of physical violence are out of the question. So play nice Jim.
And once again ... welcome.
MasL
Just in case you missed it Mas, JimH has posted here in the past. His first post on this thread he is refering to a post he made back in June of this year regarding CH.
VDJ
Ooops my mistake. I went back and checked. Wow, I saw the welcome you gave to Jim. Bit different to the one you gave to me. For a moment I thought there might even be two JimH's. 
You've stil got that some old sense of humour Vince.
Posted by: MikeChaff
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 04:50 PM
Quote:
I am for real and not a poser,I have vast experiences...
Here we go again...
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/19/06 08:30 PM
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Sir:
Ask her how helpful, useful or effective she thought the defensive tactics training in her Academy was?
No Sir! I think you may have missed my point. She was an accomplished martial artist before she started her Academy training. I think she may have been able to handle herself, as a result of her years of MA training, not the few things they covered in Defensive Tactics, which I believe is a minor course in the 6 months academy she received. I think many go throught the class, but none do the required & necessary follow up to "on the techniques" in order for them to be useful. I think they just introduce these tactics for liability purposes.
As she became one of their instrutors, I would say she found them to be quite effective. She has had various incidents (with witnesses) in which she has shared with us.She has also shared with us some of the incidents in which they were not so succesful and needed her back up for assistance.
VDJ
Posted by: MasL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/20/06 05:53 AM
Quote:
I am for real and not a poser,I have vast experiences in my 36-37 years of training,vast knowledge in several fields and arts and I use those qualifiers in my discussions,discussions which many times are opinions or likes and dislikes.
If people disagree with me and my points, fine,then debate them with the same experiences,knowledge and thoughts I use.
People should be able to give their thoughts and opinions and not rehashed ,other peoples second hand posts,prove to be a martial artists or knowledgable in the fighting arts first hand.
The main topic was Combat hapkido,but it became a thread about a closed forum and posts about people rather than topic discussion.
At least this forum is moderated
What was the point of combat hapkido members,ME,and BJJ and Larsens army combatives in this topic?
Again if people want my opinions/views on Military combatives (14 years experience active and reserve)and BJJ/MMA read my other posts here and on the sites posted or ask me here,as I have posted here on the Combatives threads and Lee Morrison,read my other posts)
JimH
We are all for real. Each and every one of us in our own different ways 
No one was calling you a poser? Relax. No one's doubting your training or background.
As for this thread: A question was asked about CH. I stated it is controversial (which it is), that I hadn't seen much so couldn't really comment on how good it is (though what I have seen doesn't particularly impress me), and that I had been in prior debate with two outspoken advocates of CH. I highlighted their views on other martil art and training methods.
I was perfectly entitled to do this within this debate.
All the best
MasL
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/20/06 09:57 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Sir:
Ask her how helpful, useful or effective she thought the defensive tactics training in her Academy was?
No Sir! I think you may have missed my point. She was an accomplished martial artist before she started her Academy training. I think she may have been able to handle herself, as a result of her years of MA training, not the few things they covered in Defensive Tactics, which I believe is a minor course in the 6 months academy she received. I think many go throught the class, but none do the required & necessary follow up to "on the techniques" in order for them to be useful. I think they just introduce these tactics for liability purposes.
As she became one of their instrutors, I would say she found them to be quite effective. She has had various incidents (with witnesses) in which she has shared with us.She has also shared with us some of the incidents in which they were not so succesful and needed her back up for assistance.
VDJ
No I didn't miss your point ! Yes she was an accomplished martial artist, but she has stated time and again that alot of the SD tactics she teaches us in class came from her trooper training ! Especially the "Come alongs". Now, whether or not the instructor that was teaching at the academy when she went thru it was a martial artist, I do not know. I guess that would be the more likely question !
VDJ
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/20/06 10:40 PM
Okay Sir, I see. My point is that they may be effective, but few ever train the after the basic school (Academy), to get them to a point that they could actually use them. In addition, few LEO do any follow up training with defensive tactics, like they do with firearms training.
It really is just for show & liability purposes.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/21/06 08:21 AM
Well like I said. She has a good portion that come in and train as does the BJJ that we used to share the room with (we have recently moved to a new location). But we may be the exception to the rule. That is a question I will aske her.
VDJ
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: Combat Hapkido - 11/21/06 11:58 AM
I will venture a bet that she will say, some, a amall group, will keep at it, but most do nothing with it after they graduate the basic school. BTW, she if she refers to it as the basic school.
This is like someone coming in for a free or short introductory lessons, then never coming back or working the few techniques on their own & thinking they know how to defend themselves. That is why many LEOs fall back to their weapons, gun, pepper spray, baton etc.
Posted by: MPEL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 12/16/06 03:10 PM
What's up VDJ! MP.
Posted by: MPEL
Re: Combat Hapkido - 12/16/06 05:49 PM
Combat Hapkido is great. One can't assume things about an art or combat system by looking at one video on YouTube.
As in all other martial arts, not all Combat Hapkido instructors offer a high level of quality instruction and one has to train in the system to know the difference, not simply infer from videos.
My experience in CH? One solid year of training in Combat Hapkido and I hold a blue belt (4th kup). This is in addition to my 3rd degree ITF black belt with over 20 years experience.
MP
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Combat Hapkido - 12/17/06 12:18 PM
Great advice, welcome to the forum.
-Tek