How young is to young?

Posted by: dinodude73

How young is to young? - 11/10/06 02:45 PM

I am an apprentice instructor at a Tae-Kwon-Do dojang and I was asked to weigh in on an issue:
How old should someone be before joining classes?
this question comes on the heels of a few kids wanting to sign up and they are only 4 and 5.
what do you guys think? all comments are welcome
Posted by: MattJ

Re: How young is to young? - 11/10/06 02:59 PM

Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 11/10/06 05:29 PM

Hello Dinodude:

If you were asked to "weigh-in" on this issue then what are YOUR views on the topic ???

Simply as a BUSINESS idea 4 or 5 year old students are definately one ~market~ In terms of bone-fide martial arts instruction... that is a very different question however . They can and do learn martial things, but literally only the smallest taste, a hint of the real picture. At such a young age ~reality~ is not entirely certain yet... and hey they are 4 or 5 right?

Depending SPECIFICALLY on the presentation type/kind
/atmosphere a very young age is possible. However, at that young an age, it will be "sneaky teaching"... and contine to be so for several years. Hidden lessons, drills and exercises for learning by concealed repetitions, rather than by outright rote.

"Serious study" won't happen (and probably should not) for a very long time if that young. Can they study even that young... certainly, but it will only be a taste of the flavor, a droplet of the true receipe in its complete longer form...

Myself, if forced to choose a random number.... I'd pick the 7-9 age range . You are not being a baby sitter and by that age they can understand far, far more. Capable of classroom learning and appropriate group behavior....

Jeff
Posted by: dinodude73

Re: How young is to young? - 11/10/06 11:21 PM

Thank you ronin I personally think that they are to young to practice any kind of stuctured activity let alone the martial arts.
I personally found that 6 and up do fine but I haven't heared of younger kids doing that well or sticking around to long.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 11/11/06 11:45 AM

I agree with pretty much of what Ronin1966 posted. I guess at some point (age) a child would not learn anything (below 4years old). Of course at 4, 5 & 6 years old, they could & do learn something, but many would say not it is not a serious study or grasp of true MAs.
IMHO they are just like babysitting services with a kick! An arguement could be made that they are good for kids & the school, as it brings in much needed revenue. However, it has been experience that the benefits gained through early practice, wane over time, becuase those that start too early tend to tire & drop out by 8,9,10 & 11 years of age. It is MHO that these crucial formative years, they say a personality is developed by 7 & when the child starts to interact with others, minus the supervision, or the lessened supervision during ages 8-11 is when you would want your child to be in a wholesome MAs activity, where they would not only exercise, but would receive all important discipline in an ever shrinking discipline society. Iwould rahter build a child's interest when they are under 7, so THEY will want to join. Then joining at that age may IMHO have better & longer lasting positive effects in a world where we see positive influences shrinking.

I have always thought that if a child WANTED to train in the Arts & started at an age where they were already used to be in a structured formal education setting, they would last longer & would be involved at a time where many dangle in being introduced to the many negative forces that appear in today's society.

Okay, I am stepping down from the pulpit!
Posted by: rageace

Re: How young is to young? - 11/14/06 02:16 PM

Just my opinion but I don't think I'd allow anybody under 7 (maybe six if they were really mature or their parents were doing it). I think it would turn into more of a cresh than a MA school.
Just my opinion
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 11:25 AM

Over the past 20 years I have seen dojo after dojo become overrun with near-toddlers. For the most part, kids 4 and 5 years old do not have the physical coordination, mental focus, or emotional maturity to benefit from martial arts training. Yes, there may be exceptions; however, they are few and far between.
Posted by: vegantkd

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 12:05 PM

I think if they are capable of listening to their parents and understanding instructions then they are mature enough. I was 5 when I started and I excelled. But I've seen 4 and 5 year olds and even 6 year olds that just don't listen to you. Some people put their kids in there like a daycare center or like an obedience school and hope that we'll teach their kids what they should be teaching them. I don't think that is right. They need to get the fundamentals at home so they can be incorporated into activities like martial arts. So it's not really a question of age but of maturity.
Posted by: rageace

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 12:05 PM

Well put.
My class had more juniors without uniforms, most of them under 8 in it than there were people with actual uniforms/official members. The mums were just loading the kids off there after school.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 12:28 PM

It all depends on what you are trying to accomplish in the class the child is attending. The youngest age I could possibly see for a child attending an adult class would be 7, more likely 8 or 9. We have several children in this age group that attend the mixed kids/adult classes and frankly, its usually the adults that have trouble keeping up with the kids.

However, if the class is geared towards the childs age group, then you can start them younger. We have several "little ninja classes", the youngest of which starts at the age of three. Obviously you can't teach them what you teach your adult students, but you can work on the basics. Kicking, punching, balance, proper behavior, safety, etc. All of which is geared towards their age group. We've had several of these students graduate up to the regular program, and these students are quite a bit further ahead than the children that start at 7 or 8.

Its no different that the school system. I learned to read and write when I was four. Granted, what I was reading was very simple, but I could read and write. Over the years, the level of what I could understand increased. Where as if you took an adult who had never learned to read, and taught them to read, well they would probably be able to read and comprehend more complex information in a much shorter time frame. Does that mean then that we shouldn't start teaching people to read until they are adults?

I agree that some schools may misuse the little ninja programs to just pull in money, or as a glorified babysitting program, but that doesn't mean there can't be good learning occurring at good schools.

For instance, we don't allow more than five students per instructor in our LN programs. Parents are encouraged to participant and help their students learn, not just sit and watch, and each class has a syllabus to insure that the appropriate information is covered in that class. And these children don't move up to the regular program until they show that they are really ready for it.

Laura
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 03:41 PM

I started TKD at age 4 and I think I turned out alright. It's not about the age of the student but their attitude. If it's just playschool, then it's a shame. I was learning proper TKD from the start and no doubt about it.

Discipline for kids in my school was tough. No talking at all during class, playing around was not allowed except during the 10 minute break period halfway through class and whining during drills was a no-no. We trained on hot concrete (literally foot-blisteringly hot on some days) but complaints were not allowed and they never turned up anyway. My dojo was far from playschool and I'm glad that it was. They treated the kids the same as the adults and respected them just the same as well. (with their physical differences taken into account, of course)

Some people think this is over-the-top but I think it did me a world of good. Besides, my first teacher was an army drill instructor as his day job, he was practically treating the whole class like babies compared to his usual work.
Posted by: Neko456

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 04:45 PM

As a Instructor you have to generalize most 4 yr. olds are not mentally or physically able to keep up with 5-6 yr. olds. Attention spand wise theirs is even shorter then the 5-6yr old. There are some rare cases were the child comprehension and physical abilities are better then normal.

But its been my exeprience this is not the case, I've informed by the parent that the child was of age 6 yr. old. And found that he was 4 r 4.5yrs old.

My Instructor didn't take kids younger then 13 yr. old, I take kids at 5-6 yr old. 4-4.5 is much too young I know there are some acceptions, but at a glance you can't tell.

Its not good to generalize, but sometimes for the good of the class, you must.
Posted by: cappo

Re: How young is to young? - 11/15/06 06:43 PM

in my tkd class, we had a 3 year old boy, who's now 8 and a junior black belt. depends on the child probably
Posted by: GizmoTKD

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 07:23 AM

Well, I believe the youngest kids we ever had were 4. We do not allow students under 10 in the adults classes (unless they are really exceptional, and they still have to keep up with the adults afterwards...).

On the other hand, I feel that 8 years old is way too young for a black belt, even a junior one.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 09:18 AM

Quote:

Well, I believe the youngest kids we ever had were 4. We do not allow students under 10 in the adults classes (unless they are really exceptional, and they still have to keep up with the adults afterwards...).

On the other hand, I feel that 8 years old is way too young for a black belt, even a junior one.




Can you please explain why you fell 8 is too young?
Posted by: olga

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 10:04 AM

I think that since Martial Arts are not just about punching and kicking, you can start preparing kids for serious training as young as 3.5 or 4.They can learn MA discipline (different from what is taught at home), maturity, respect, coordination and other values as they relate to MA. These qualities will only help the kids in their future martial careers if they decide to continue on that path. They can also learn very basic moves.

As part of my own training, a fellow student and I teach a kids karate class for 4-7 years olds. Some of the kids are 3.5. They are not ranked and they don't have unifoms. Rarely it feels like a daycare, and overall, what we are giving to these kids is different from what they are getting at home. For example, one day the parents were shocked to see their kids lined up on the floor and quietly sitting in seza for several minutes. >Olga
Posted by: GizmoTKD

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 10:15 AM

Just my personal opinion. To me, one can be a junior black belt around the age of 12, and it should be really an exceptional person - to be honest, I still have my doubts here. Even if we concentrate on the sporting aspect only, I do feel that the average age for a black belt should be around 16 minimum, when people start to act more mature. For kids, TKD is usually a game, a way to have fun and I don't really think that they need a black belt - even a junior one - as an additional toy. I had an opportunity to meet Korean kids, some of them holding 2nd and 3rd Pooms, and although they were all super nice people, I wasn't really too impressed with their level of skill - and I mean technical ability here, not for example the level of fitness, power etc., which is naturally lower that with the adults.

I have some young students in my school as well. I have a fantastic group of 6 to 9 years olds. Some of the youngsters, who have been training with me for say 4 years, are now between 9 and 11. They are 5th and 4th Kups now and they have plenty of work before being eligible for 1st Dan. Some have tournament experience already. Some won national championships and competed internationally. Some had their 2nd or 3rd summer training camp this year (10 days of training 2-3 times a day) and had an opportunity to take part in seminars with foreign instructors. Yet they have still plenty of work to do before achieving their 1st dans.

I'm not that much traditional when it comes to training, but I'm still pretty traditional when it comes to awarding grades...

Besides - in my country, even in TKD WTF which has rather relaxed attitude when it comes to junior grades, I believe the youngest 1st pooms are/were around 11 when awarded, and there were really a handful of them.

Regards

Gizmo
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 10:54 AM

MaAm:

I see your point & the value of what you do. I agree there are some benefits to be gained. However, IMHO the early start may contribute to drop out at an age prior to when one may want a youngster enrolled to have those same benefits, to counter act, the many negative influences that the young are subjectd to at later years, than they are at 3.5 - 6 years of age. Those younger ages, most children are still in a smaller, more protected world.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 10:55 AM

I see & thank you. I just think that we may place different emphasis or weight on what a BB is or what it represents. I do see your very valid point. Thanks
Posted by: ThomsonsPier

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 11:15 AM

I think that part of the strength of martial arts training is that the teacher is able to make a judgement based on the individual rather than applying a blanket policy in all cases. A teacher generally knows what his/her students are capable of and can adjust accordingly.

The problems only begin when classes are large or instructors varied, at which point the dynamics of the training may not allow the flexibility required.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 01:56 PM

Very good point!
Posted by: cappo

Re: How young is to young? - 11/16/06 05:15 PM

apologies if anybody's posted this before, but you should check out this crazy stuff.

crazy 6 year old
Posted by: Curly

Re: How young is to young? - 07/06/07 07:02 PM

We recently had a lady call into our dojo and ask "Hi, I have an 18 month old kid here and i'm wondering if I can sign him up for karate lessons". My sensei asked "Ma'am, is this a joke," and she said "no". And he began to laugh and said "lady, did one of my students put you up to this. Seriously, you have to be kidding", and the lady said "no i'm not kidding".

He then asked "does he know his left from his right", and she said "well no, hes 18 months old" and he said "Lady, this is a KARATE school. This is not day-care. Go sign him up for other activities, but karate isn't appropriate until hes AT LEAST 6 years old".


Posted by: Eagle13

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 09:47 AM

Ok, 18 months is obviously too young.

But still, you need to think of the other benefits of martial arts, like confidence and self control. Whether kids can handle your class depends on the expectations of your class.

Our school teaches a lot of kids, some beginning as young as 3. It is a family-centered style, where parents and kids often attend the same class. Discipline is mild to moderate in our classes, and always positive. The pace of the class is kept high, to sustain the interest of the young ones, and to teach us all to be alert and responsive to the events of the moment. Some kids' attention will drift away, then be drawn back in by a new activity or lesson. Teachers allow them to do this, but may ask them to do something else if they are being distracting or getting too close to other students practicing. I have seen some impressive displays of self control from preschool or early elementary age children. And, it makes us "big people" more careful about where we are striking and who is in our space.
Posted by: Supremor

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 11:03 AM

Quote:

And, it makes us "big people" more careful about where we are striking and who is in our space.




You see, that's exactly the kind of thing I DON'T want to have to do when I'm practicing.

Having kids in a MA class with adults is detrimental for both of them in my opinion. The adults have to take lots of easy fights, and have to cope with the kids' discipline issues; the kids have to practice in an environment they are simply not old enough to be able to fit in with.

That's not to say kids' classes are a bad idea, it's not my kind of thing personally, but I think that for many kids such things can be very beneficial, just like football, basketball etc. However, any kids under the age of maybe 14, I feel is just too young for them to cope with a group of adults, and it puts the adults in a difficult position of thinking more about being careful with them than focusing on our own training.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 11:19 AM

Hello Vegantkd:

How does one determine "maturity" specifically? You walk through the door and take a blood test??? How do you instantly filter out a child (or adult) determine maturity I wonder???

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 11:24 AM

Hello Supermor:

Could not agree more!!!! Kids & adults in the same class are a very bad idea for precisely the reasons you mention plus one or two I think I could add to that "list". Regardless prefer 15, or 16 before even offering the option to integrate into the adult classes myself... but not guaranteed by any means

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 11:28 AM

Hello Eage:

<<18 months obviously too young...

Foolish, foolish man.... A huge unutilized market in DIAPER DANS

Jeff (Running for cover FAST)
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 11:33 AM

hello Olga:

How large a class...? Forgive me, I too am shocked. How do you integrate the physical abilities of 1st graders with the lack of development of the pre-k kids?

Jeff
Posted by: Supremor

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 11:38 AM

BTW Jeff, you probably won't get answers for all that, there have only been a couple of posts within the last year.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 03:56 PM

here's something to ponder. i started when i was 4. nearly 12 years later i'm preparing for my 2nd dan test and i'm really grateful that i had the oppurtunity to start as young as i did.
Posted by: EvenRats

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 10:33 PM

I've noticed how those who start martial arts early as children have more control when sparring in tournaments, as opposed to the hormone-ridden, adrenaline pumped, pre-MMA fanatic out-of-control super junior divisions that I usually spar in.

That matter aside...I believe the ripe age for a child to start is when they understand responsibility.
Posted by: jasperdaman

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 10:35 PM

It all depends on maturity and willingness to learn, not age. Students can be 1 and have the maturity and commitment of a 7 year old and vice versa. It all depends.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: How young is to young? - 05/28/08 10:44 PM

i think it is true that kids that young may not grasp the idea of forms and practical applications, but i must say that it is highly beneficial. you start hearing words like respect, discipline, courtesy, and perseverance before you know what they mean. however those words reflect on you. i look at my peers at school and i see people who drink, smoke, get bad grades, do drugs, etc. and i wonder, what if i hadn't started TKD way back when? would i be one of them? would i blow off homework assignments? skip class? would baseball or football do the same thing to me? would i make the honor roll EVERY semester? in my heart i feel the answer is no. when i started, i didn't fully understand what TKD was about, but after a while it just became a part of me and it reflects positively in all aspects of my life. in the end i think that 4 years old is not too young. it worked for me and i'm turning out more than OK.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 12:52 AM

Hello TKD-X:

With respect, well earned I have no doubt.... yet is also one of the meaningful serious arguments against you (generic) too. Consider the equasion 16 = 2nd degree. (Age + the number of the next rank to determine your potential age at that rank.)

16=2
19=3rd
23=4th
28=5th
34=6th
41=7th
49=8th
59=9th

69= top of the "pyramid" Can you see the basic problem some of us old guys/old timers might well have with that??? A double edged sword (sic. with some seriously honed edge)...

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 12:55 AM

Hello Sire:

Understood, think its worth making regardless... tricky issues these but worth kicking around I hope.

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 12:58 AM

Hello Evenrats:

<<<I believe the ripe age for a child to start is when they understand responsibility.

[That makes em all PARENTS themselves...]

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 01:07 AM

Hello TKD-X:

Sounds like it...

Cannot tell you how many times kids who were with us, (and STILL are) keep coming back with the epiphany "... geeze I don't have a clue what I was #$*#_# doing when I was younger, but now that I'm older (sic. 20's) I "get it"..."

Deja-vu over and over and over...
Jeff
Posted by: Supremor

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 05:34 AM

Quote:


here's something to ponder. i started when i was 4. nearly 12 years later i'm preparing for my 2nd dan test and i'm really grateful that i had the oppurtunity to start as young as i did.




As I said in my post, there are reasons for and against young children doing martial arts, and I'm not sure where I stand on that issue. However, my concern is purely for mixing ages like this, i.e. adults training with young children. That situation is detrimental for everybody IMO.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 06:51 AM

Quote:

Quote:


here's something to ponder. i started when i was 4. nearly 12 years later i'm preparing for my 2nd dan test and i'm really grateful that i had the oppurtunity to start as young as i did.




As I said in my post, there are reasons for and against young children doing martial arts, and I'm not sure where I stand on that issue. However, my concern is purely for mixing ages like this, i.e. adults training with young children. That situation is detrimental for everybody IMO.




There are good reasons to have all ages classes BUT none of those reasons are that anyone learns. Some truly young kids want mom or dad to do it with them. They start out in a mixed age class until the kid is confident enough for mom and dad to go do their own class (or stop) and to settle into the kids class themselves.

IE - it is to lower a barrier to entry.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 09:15 AM

It's too young when you as an instructor don't have the skill or patience to deal with a child of that age.

At our main school, we have three little ninja classes. One for 3 year olds that meets once a week for half an hour, and one for beginner and advanced LN's from 4 to 7 year olds, which meets twice a week.

We've only had a LN program for a couple of years, so I've had the opportunity to see some of these students graduate out of that program and into our regular program at the age of 7. What I see is children who are more focused and disciplined and ready to learn. The little ninja graduates rarely get into trouble and are typically much better students. Will they stick around? hard to say, but many of them have already made it past the 3 year mark, which is hard to get to for any student.

As for teaching mixed age classes, yes it can be a real challenge. The class I teach is a mixed class which rages from 5 year old white belts to 40 year old second degree black belts. The nice thing is it does allow families to attend the same class. But it can be a real challenge to make it challenging for the advanced students, but easy enough for the beginners.

The trick I find is to break the class up by rank, beginner intermediate and advanced, and have them doing different things. For instance, the beginners might be doing turning kicks, the intermediate students jump turning kicks, and the advanced, 360 turning kicks.

I used to have two separate classes, based on age, but decided this past winter to combine them. There were a lot of concerns from the students and parents, especially from the older students as they were afraid that having younger students in the class would hamper their training.

Just the opposite happened though. The advanced students suddenly realized that they were setting an example for the younger students and started working a lot harder on their techniques, and the younger students started following that example. Within about two weeks, I would say about 90 percent of the disciplinary problems went away because these younger students wanted to be treated like the older students.

Just an interesting observation.
Laura
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 04:03 PM

Quote:

Quote:


here's something to ponder. i started when i was 4. nearly 12 years later i'm preparing for my 2nd dan test and i'm really grateful that i had the oppurtunity to start as young as i did.




As I said in my post, there are reasons for and against young children doing martial arts, and I'm not sure where I stand on that issue. However, my concern is purely for mixing ages like this, i.e. adults training with young children. That situation is detrimental for everybody IMO.




Hello Suprmeor:
I agree completely. Adults shouldn't have to deal with kids in their class. The only exception to this is family class where parents and their kids can take class together, while still participating in some separate drills.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 04:12 PM

Quote:

Hello TKD-X:

With respect, well earned I have no doubt.... yet is also one of the meaningful serious arguments against you (generic) too. Consider the equasion 16 = 2nd degree. (Age + the number of the next rank to determine your potential age at that rank.)

16=2
19=3rd
23=4th
28=5th
34=6th
41=7th
49=8th
59=9th

69= top of the "pyramid" Can you see the basic problem some of us old guys/old timers might well have with that??? A double edged sword (sic. with some seriously honed edge)...

Jeff




your saying that some of the more seasoned folks will not appreciate a 16 year old telling them how it's done? i can see where you're coming from. i would probably feel the same if someone half my age was three times my rank (no math went into that, just a hypothetical number). however i don't know of too many middle aged people who start martial arts with the intent of becoming 4th dan or higher. i could be wrong. i believe however that a grandmaster, upon reaching that rank, should still be young enough that they can pass on all of their knowledge to the next generation. if i had just started now, at 16, i would probably be in my 70s before i became a grandmaster, if i still had the physical ability to become a grandmaster at that age. i can't speak for older martial artists, but i would prefer to have a fresh instructor that can still do what they were doing 30 years ago.
Posted by: jeff_andle

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 10:20 PM

Laura, we have two year olds. I have some tiny tigers that are serious (for their 4-5 year old selves). On the other hand I rarely teach them. My favorite classes are the teens, adults and the motivated pre-teens.

OK, my FAVORITE are my Monday night semi-private lessons at a friend's house with his kids, but that does not pay the bills, as much as it feeds the soul.
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 11:01 PM

when i have kids, they'll be born in doboks and white belts .
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 11:17 PM

Quote:

It's too young when you as an instructor don't have the skill or patience to deal with a child of that age. Laura




Thats great! Now I know why they call you "The Brain"
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 11:19 PM

Quote:

however i don't know of too many middle aged people who start martial arts with the intent of becoming 4th dan or higher. i could be wrong. i believe however that a grandmaster, upon reaching that rank, should still be young enough that they can pass on all of their knowledge to the next generation. if i had just started now, at 16, i would probably be in my 70s before i became a grandmaster, if i still had the physical ability to become a grandmaster at that age. i can't speak for older martial artists, but i would prefer to have a fresh instructor that can still do what they were doing 30 years ago.




I think that many may miss the best part of being around or mentored by a real grandmaster & IMHO it has nothing or at least very little to do with physical attributes.......
Posted by: TKD_X

Re: How young is to young? - 05/29/08 11:50 PM

i know that being around a grandmaster is incredible regardless of what they can do. i know from recent experience. meeting a grandmaster in his golfing clothes is just as good as meeting him in his dobok. i'm saying that as a grandmaster I would want to be able to do everything and more than what i do now. i want to be able not to say "back in the day i used to do it this way..." i just want to be able to demonstrate it. i'm not saying that i expect a grandmaster to do a backflip and walk on glass every time i see them, i'm saying that's the kind of grandmaster i want to be. my personal goal is to be a really cool grandmaster that can still do cool stuff before i become the wise grandmaster whose body is too tired to demonstrate. but if one starts later in life, then they become grandmaster at 70+ and they don't always get to be that supercool guy that did this or that demonstration last week. the respect comes either way, but i want to be active and stay kicky for a LONG LONG LONG time. i don't want to become a grandmaster and then retire shortly after.