Kicking in self defense
Posted by: TeK9
Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 08:15 PM
Those of you who practice taekwondo understand that kicking is a large component of our art. When practicing self defense how often are kicks applied in your self defense step sparring?
I going to generalize here but many of the korean forms of self defense prefer and intersting step when doing their one-three step sparring. Many styles of karate prefer to end the exercise with a sweep or a throw. Something that takes the opponent down so they end up lying on their back. It is reference in many books and magazine articles that korean arts prefr to end their combos with a kick, usually a jump kick.
Now if any of you heard an old schooler talk about the kind of taekwondo they did back in korea or in the 60's in the united states, you will hear that many of the fancy spinning kicks of today were not employed back then. However, the many basic kicks such as the front, round and back kicks were used with a jump. Usually to end the encounter with an assailant permanently.
I'm not sure how all the schools practice today but I'm sure TKD still uses kicks in their self defense step sparring, although they may no longer favor that last jump kick as a finishing blow. So I ask you, is this how your school approaches self defense? If so how do you feel about it? Do you prefer another way such as the karates vesion of the sweep/throw technique?
If you do't understand me, write me and I wll clarify for you so that you can take part in the conversation.
Personally for me, I like this unique approach that TKD takes. It's something not often done by other styles of karate and I reall think it works just as good as if not better than the usual sweep or take down.
-Tek
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 09:08 PM
My TKD instructor had laways stated that high and jump kicks were ineffective in self-defense.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 09:18 PM
I prefer to leave both of my feet firmly on the ground during a fight. There is no quicker way of being taken down than when you are on one leg, regardless of how quick or how low you keep the kick.
-John
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 09:33 PM
Im not so adamant. I will kick. Its not often i do it to the head or anything, but I still practice them. I love a stiff MT Roundhouse to the knee. I attack the legs alot but Im comfortable kicking at any height. Its something that really has to be worked constantly though.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 09:58 PM
47martialman,
Thanks now we know how he feels about it, now how about you tell us your opinoin on the matter?
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 10:04 PM
Kicks to the knee is the stuff for me, although I don't do step sparring anymore. When I work my drills on the heavy bag it usually involves at least one knee kick per combo. I've also got a love for using elbows as a finisher at the end of a combo just because you can place them in the most unlikely timing and it should be pretty unexpected.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 10:09 PM
I know what you mean chen, I also like ending a scenerio with a nice round kick to the back of my oppoenents knees to take him down. It also helps if you do a grab a shoulder and pull to get the push/pull motion on the sweep. I copied this from Beeny "the jet" Urquidez.
I also role modeled by back kicks just like him too. I would do a good back kick as a finisher.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 10:11 PM
Quote:
Its something that really has to be worked constantly though.
It's also the first thing to go.
-John
Posted by: Chen Zen
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/30/06 11:13 PM
Thats what I hear but i havent experienced it personally. im a litle younger than you though.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 01:59 AM
I'll kick if the opportunity comes up but to be honest I find I use my knees more due to instinctively I'm clinching up. This can be good and this can be bad but grabbing the back of their head just seems so natural and so does the knee. Of course I admit that I need far more experience, training and application before I feel I can make any positive decisions.
If a kicking opportunity does arise it will be very low and more then likely to the knee. Though WTF I find for this I'm kicking more with the front leg, much like our ITF affiliates. Its fast and I realize that I'm more just trying to catch them off guard or give them somewhere else to focus on while I try to attack else where. Mind you this is all here say as this is mainly control sparring.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 12:37 PM
Well, firstly I'd never use a flying kick, a spinning kick or really anything that made me turn my back.
But in one-step sparring, I often use kicks to the knee and groin. I particularly like sidekicks to the knee, since it is basically a stamp, and we all know how much they can hurt! Front kicks to the groin are also a nice tool.
I don't think there's an "either or" situation with kicks and grappling though. As Dereck mentions, the clinch is ideal for throwing knees, and there are many grappling positions from which kicks can be thrown, particularly the upward kick or knee strike. And when you do use a takedown, why not stamp on them? Surely that's an ideal situation for kicks.
Posted by: RazorFoot
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 02:27 PM
I will use knees and low kicks. The highest kick I will use is a front kick or a round to the kidneys if the shot presents itself. I believe in using feints to set things up so I can get my leg kicks in. Inside low thigh (right above the knee), side or front to knee, or behind the knee round kicks work well along with the nice cutting kick Mr. Butterfly was kind enough to add to my arsenal.
Scottie
Posted by: matxtx
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 04:30 PM
Because ,like many,we are encouraged to come up with our own one step i personaly use more hand techniques and knees ,if my legs are involved ,and from recent times as i get better have been finishing more with takedowns then stamping on them and locks and breaks then kneeing.
The kicks i do though are low turning kicks (roundkicks( to the knee like others,i like the side kick and i like using it on the back of their knee to collapse the leg if iv gone outside with a parry or cover.I use front kicks to the shin or to the gangoolys.
I also take into account the shoes i wear.I know that at work iv steel toe cap boots on so i can shape my foot to hit with the steel toe end.And because they are heavy it effects my balance.Other times its trainers or shoes and i might use my shin more while in thinner trainers.
I like to trip to.
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 05:12 PM
Quote:
the nice cutting kick Mr. Butterfly was kind enough to add to my arsenal.
Scottie
WHAT IS THIS?
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 05:14 PM
Quote:
Front kicks to the groin are also a nice tool.
I HAVENT SEEN MANY SUCESSFUL FRONT KICKS TO GROIN IN STREET COMBAT 
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 05:15 PM
Quote:
I'll kick if the opportunity comes up but to be honest I find I use my knees more due to instinctively I'm clinching up. This can be good and this can be bad but grabbing the back of their had just seems so natural and so does the knee. Of course I admit that I need far more experience, training and application before I feel I can make any positive decisions.
If a kicking opportunity does arise it will be very low and more then likely to the knee. Though WTF I find for this I'm kicking more with the front leg, much like our ITF affiliates. Its fast and I realize that I'm more just trying to catch them off guard or give them somewhere else to focus on while I try to attack else where. Mind you this is all here say as this is mainly control sparring.
HOW TRUE. AND OPPENTS CHANGE THEIR COURSE OF ATTACK AND DEFENSE
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 05:17 PM
Quote:
Thats what I hear but i havent experienced it personally. im a litle younger than you though.
yES, BUT BEING YOUNG WLL BE NO EXCUSE FOR INTELLECTUAL COMPACITY. USE COMMON SENSE AND REASONING WILL HAVE YOU EXPEREINCE ALSO.
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 05:18 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Its something that really has to be worked constantly though.
It's also the first thing to go.
-John
John, do you mean to go, as not really used?
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 06:51 PM
I'm no talking about flying kicks, I'm specifically asking about jump kicks.
What I consider flying kick would be like a side kick, splits kick, scissor kick. These kind require you to fly across a certain ammount of space.
I'm talking about a tin which you land relatively in the same spot sometimes in a different stance in which you started the attack.
Example: Jump front kick using your rear leg.
-Begin in a fighting stance
-Jump up
-kick with your rear leg
-Land in a fighting stance with the rear kicing leg in the lead.
Same example would be for the round kick and the back kick.
Oh and when I say jump, this can be a small hop of two inches or twelve inches and up.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 08:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
the nice cutting kick Mr. Butterfly was kind enough to add to my arsenal.
Scottie
WHAT IS THIS?
If we are talking the same thing, this is when you start by kicking with your back leg as if you are doing a roundhouse but you don't finish off the kick but rotate your hips and kick with the opposit leg. This is probably the first kick I caught onto and have used a lot and love it. We refer to it as the cut kick so I hope we are talking the same thing.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 08:36 PM
The jump kick, I've seen it used successfully by my Instructor when sparring (jump front kick) as it can catch your opponent off guard but like any of these types of kicks, they carry a good chance of being more harmful for yourself. I honestly believe there is a time and place for every kick but they present themselves far and few and it is best to stick with the basics low kicks.
Posted by: JKogas
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 08:53 PM
Obviously the better at kicking you are, the greater chance you'll have of being successful. I'm just not convinced that most of the population has it in them to be great kickers in a fight. Thus I tend to focus on boxing and the clinch for stand-up. In that clinch are some great knee shots which are potential fight enders.
-John
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 09:02 PM
I can't argue with that.
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 10:35 PM
Quote:
Obviously the better at kicking you are, the greater chance you'll have of being successful. I'm just not convinced that most of the population has it in them to be great kickers in a fight. Thus I tend to focus on boxing and the clinch for stand-up. In that clinch are some great knee shots which are potential fight enders.
-John
I have seen people who thought they were great kickers. Kicking, no matter how good you are, has many limitations in a brawl.
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 10:40 PM
Quote:
The jump kick, I've seen it used successfully by my Instructor when sparring (jump front kick) as it can catch your opponent off guard but like any of these types of kicks, they carry a good chance of being more harmful for yourself. I honestly believe there is a time and place for every kick but they present themselves far and few and it is best to stick with the basics low kicks.
Sparring and brawling are entirely different. And since this thread is about kicking in self defense, has it to having limited use. Now, I can state that low kicking, as I had observed in many brawls, those performed when the opponent was losing balance to near ground or on ground were very effective. Of course they are more powerful and easier to deliver. Also to mention stomping.
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 10/31/06 10:41 PM
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
the nice cutting kick Mr. Butterfly was kind enough to add to my arsenal.
Scottie
WHAT IS THIS?
If we are talking the same thing, this is when you start by kicking with your back leg as if you are doing a roundhouse but you don't finish off the kick but rotate your hips and kick with the opposit leg. This is probably the first kick I caught onto and have used a lot and love it. We refer to it as the cut kick so I hope we are talking the same thing.
Got it. But please describe the so-called "butterfly"
Posted by: Umbra_777
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/01/06 12:08 AM
In my opinion a strong kick is an extreamly go way to stun an opponent allowing you to run away since it is unexpected, has good range, and does a lot of damage.
I sorta feel that perhaps a spinning kick could be useful for this since it comes from a wierd angle and can build up speed (although not an overly complex spinning kick). However, I have not messed around with this, it's more a "what I imagine would look right in a fight."
Posted by: crablord
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/01/06 12:23 AM
Spinning kicks in a fight? like hell. My instructor brang up a good point yestersay, in the dojo you may be able to pull off a jumping spinning kick, but in real life its different, the most efficient moves are the simple brutal ones. Leg kicks and maybe front kicks is as far as id go in a fight, i think clinch and punching are what needs to be trained
Posted by: clmibb
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/01/06 01:02 AM
Ya know I've popped in this thread a couple of times and I have to put my two cents in. Would I ever do a flying inverted hooking back upside down jump kick? Hell no. Would I do a good side kick to the knee (Eventhough I can easily kick to the head)? You bet! Kicks aren't something that the average Joe would expect to be done on the street. Like Crablord said it's the most basic techniques are the most brutal.
Casey
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/01/06 03:14 AM
Please stay on topic folks. Read my original post for more info.
Posted by: Umbra_777
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/01/06 06:17 PM
Ok, more on topic: I've done very little one step but from what I've seen their are a variety of kicks, punches, and hand strikes done. I don't think I can say yet weither I have or have not seen kicks used extensivly as finishing moves.
Something I have seen used in sparing is a front snap kick done while hopping backwards with the idea being to get distance on the opponent.
More off topic:
Is a back/side pivot kick considered a spinning kick? I was thinking along the lines of spin>kick>run in the direction you've spun to as one motion. However, like I said it's hypothetical.
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/02/06 05:23 PM
Quote:
Ok, more on topic: I've done very little one step but from what I've seen their are a variety of kicks, punches, and hand strikes done. I don't think I can say yet weither I have or have not seen kicks used extensivly as finishing moves.
Something I have seen used in sparing is a front snap kick done while hopping backwards with the idea being to get distance on the opponent.
More off topic:
Is a back/side pivot kick considered a spinning kick? I was thinking along the lines of spin>kick>run in the direction you've spun to as one motion. However, like I said it's hypothetical.
Hmmmn still not on topic. Kicking in self-defense
Posted by: 47MartialMan
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/02/06 05:31 PM
Quote:
Spinning kicks in a fight? like hell. My instructor brang up a good point yestersay, in the dojo you may be able to pull off a jumping spinning kick, but in real life its different, the most efficient moves are the simple brutal ones. Leg kicks and maybe front kicks is as far as id go in a fight, i think clinch and punching are what needs to be trained
Brang??????
But you are correct to keep it simple
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Kicking in self defense - 11/03/06 05:01 AM
Quotes from martialman:
Quote:
HOW TRUE. AND OPPENTS CHANGE THEIR COURSE OF ATTACK AND DEFENSE
Quote:
USE COMMON SENSE AND REASONING WILL HAVE YOU EXPEREINCE ALSO.
Please, if you are going to criticiso others' spelling and grammar, at least get it right yourself. Also, please post only once at a time, it's very annoying for other readers to have to scroll down through multiple posts. If you want to aaddress different statements to different people, just write their name followed by a commar, then what you want to say.