Should TKD teach ground fighting?

Posted by: TeK9

Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 12:09 PM

No style is perfect, and no style is pure. Grappling techniques of jujutsu can be seen in any art, the high kicks of the korean arts are no longer just practice in dojangs but in dojo's aswell, the multiple open hand strikes of kung fu are no longer just in the chinese arts but in the okinawen /japanese arts aswell.

There is no perfect style and even if it's not admitted or said out loud, every school is a practitioner of mix martial arts. It would be extremely rare for an instructor to have never been exposed to a second or third style of fighting, not unless they've lived on a secluded islandfor the majority of their life, and even still, they would have to have no televsion.

So the question is, should striking arts like TKD teach basic ground skills?

With the popularity of gracie jiu-jitsu and the practicality of wrestling in mma tournaments having knowledge of ground play has become essential. Perhaps it may not be very imporant to have tremendous knowledge of ground fighting per say, but at least a basic knowledge of ground defense should be considered as part of TKD curriculum.

While most attackers will not be skilled wrestlers or brazilian jiu-jitsu experts, the sole purpose of gracie jiu-jitsu was to prove that although on the ground and on your back, a skilled weaker opponenet has a chance against an attacker.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 12:21 PM

I honestly don't think it would really be TKD anymore if it had groundfighting. Call it what it is; MMA.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 12:23 PM

At our school, I do teach them during our self defence classes but call them Hapkido techniques so anyone going back to my Sah Bum Nim wont get me killed, lol. I can not teach something front the mount or the guard because that would immediately give it away but I can teach some basic concepts like controlling the opponents, clinching, takedowns, and ground control.

My Sah Bum Nim is Korean and strongly believes in only TKD being taught in his school but I know we need to have some ground strategies as well. This is the way I make that happen. For the greater good dang it!

Scottie
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 12:43 PM

Taekwon-Do, if taught properly, that is with realism, will of course have ground fighting in it.

If you currently train in TKD & do not fight on the ground, then you are not practicing with realism, as many fights have the potential to end up on the ground.

There has been fighting on the ground techniques in Taekwon-Do since the 1st English text was published in 1965. I do not have the 1959 Korean text, so I can not comment on that.

The problem (or 1 of them) with TKD today, is it has become so watered down as a sport & a babysitting (or discipline builder) service for children.

Most schools fight using tournament sparring principles. This is not FREE sparring. In addition, most schools teach or practice very unrealistic self defense movements, with a willing partner.

The ITF system - if you follow the syllabus, has provisions to be a complete MA. However, not that ITF is any better, as many of their schools do not follow the syllabus close enough to realize the benefits. Some do not even know the syllabus. (Refer back to the waterdown explanation, as they suffer from the same fate).
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 01:54 PM

Obviously my own school does not fit the mold as grappling is taught since white belt level. However we are affiliated with 2 schools with the name. As well we are associated with another school so I will give you the low down on us.

School 1; Main (owner of name of the schools) - No grappling taught until 3 Dan and higher.

School 2 - No grappling taught in curriculum until 3 Dan and higher though grappling is taught separate on Saturdays and Tuesday nights and has students that don't take TKD.

School 3 (us) - Grappling taught from white belt level and up though we have the same TKD curriculum as the first 2 schools.

School 4 (associatad) - No grappling taught; heavily into competition fighting.


We all test together prior to taking the Provincial test for black belt and higher. The first three school's Instructors all learned from one South Korean Master who was Taekwondo and Hapkido mixed and included ground skills. The 2nd and 3rd school's Instructors then took it upon themselves to become black belts in Ketto-Ryu Jujitsu. Then from there they began training BJJ with David Meyer a Machado black belt. Then from there the 3rd school's Instructor (my school) took it even further and trains and competes MMA.

The 3 affiliated schools all came from the same teacher and all teach the same curriculum though the 2nd and 3rd also provide more. The 2nd school teaches grappling separate as they have a large of enough base that people just want to learn grappling so takes other students and just teaches that without them having to take TKD. The 3rd school teaches it all together from the experience of the Instructor (my Instructor) who believes that the students should have all of the needed skills to become complete martial artists.

We are all still Taekwondo just slightly different. And as I see it, when it comes to 3rd Dan and higher, our school will be better prepared when grappling is manditory and tested for. While they will be learning the basics we will be far above this and more effective ... in my opinion.

So I think ground skills are something that should be taught but are not always. The basics of ground skills were taught to all three Instructors by their Korean Master due to Hapkido being blended into them. Probably most school with Hapkido influences (i.e. Scottie's school), do allow for some basic ground fighting. Should it not then be called Taekwondo like Leo suggests? I say no, they are still Taekwondo as this is the base of the art and the other stuff is just gravy or the icing on the cake.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 02:13 PM

Problem could be technical. It could be very hard to teach TKD that "flows" by switching what it is at the moment on to the ground. Many TKD schools, as I'm sure you all know, borrow SD moves from other arts. The WTF group in my area take them from Ju Jitsu. Although they are to be applauded for taking the initative, it was like learning two seperate arts in one class.

You may want to ask some of the Kyushokin/Ashiara/Enshin people on the karate forums about this. All of these arts, which resemble TKD to a certain extent, have well developed "anti-grappling" techniques. Just a thought.
Posted by: Supremor

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 02:17 PM

Ground fighting is crucial to fighting, and therefore TKD should include some. However, the extent to which TKD fighters should be taught ground fighting is questionable- there are only so many hours in a class. My preference would be that all TKD practitioners should know how to roll, how to do take downs, and how to do enough ground fighting to guard, to roll and to pound. I don't see the point in teaching that many arm bars, locks etc. since a TKD chap will be much more proficient at throwing strikes from the top.

ITFUnity, although I am sure TKD did include some level of groundfighting, we have to get real here, and admit that groundfighting is a place where TKD doesn't have a whole lot to offer other styles. Even if there are techniques, they are not only less effective, but less coherent as a grappling style than those found in judo and Jujitsu. If TKD wants to ground fight, it should take its syllabus from those styles, and not try to do it on its own.

The topic is a no brainer when it comes to what a serious student should want to be taught. It is far more controversial when one starts to demand changes to schools. TKD instructors are just not knowledgeable on the whole about such things, and even if they have experience in grappling, I would rather be taught be a grappling expert than a TKD guy who had added some grappling in. Dereck's instructor seems to be an exception, since the guy obviously has expertise in grappling as well.
Posted by: Supremor

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 02:20 PM

Quote:

You may want to ask some of the Kyushokin/Ashiara/Enshin people on the karate forums about this. All of these arts, which resemble TKD to a certain extent, have well developed "anti-grappling" techniques. Just a thought.



Now that is a good point Prizewriter, "anti-grappling" I feel is about as much as a TKD school will ever be able to offer. Things like sprawling and underhooks. In the end, if you're mainly trained in TKD, you're gonna be rubbish on the ground against a trained BJJ guy, that's why he wants you on the ground, and why you want to be standing.

Train to stay standing as long as possible, and then train worst case scenarios. Don't train to beat BJJ guys at their own game.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 03:11 PM

Quote:

TKD instructors are just not knowledgeable on the whole about such things, and even if they have experience in grappling, I would rather be taught be a grappling expert than a TKD guy who had added some grappling in.



Supremor, I totally agree. I may be an exception but you will hear my own Instructor say that if you want to learn everything about grappling then join a grappling school. He has said the same about boxing and MMA training that to learn all the ins and outs of these then join those types of schools.

We work on a 6 day rotation so we can only afford 1 class per week for 4 weeks straight to have a grappling class and then 1 week with none and then back again for 4 weeks. And if the class has a lot of newer belts we will go right back to the basics with falling techniques and simplier skills then continue where most of us are. So in otherwords time is an issue to get really competent at these skills.

We have good basics from white belt level and up. Then there are a handful of us that have more skills then the rest because we train after class and our Instructor sees this interest and spends more time with us. And for us we feel it is necessary to compete to further improve our skills. However our skills obviously would be far greater if we were doing it all the time if we attended a grappling school. But from our competitions we've competed and attended, surprisingly for some students and the amount of time they have put in which is substantial to our time put in, we were on par with a lot of them. Perhaps it is the love of the art that propells many of us to learn more in such a small amount of time.

But back to the main post, and agreeing with much I've seen written, I see a need for any stand up art to learn the basic minimum ground fighting skills just so they can defend from the ground and work to an advantage to finish it or at the least get back up to their feet to continue the fight or to take flight. Basics ... that is all they need. They don't need to know all of the armbars and scissor sweeps or chokes ... though these are the things I love the most about the ground game, but the basics of buck/trap/roll to gain top mount is essential not to mention having a decent guard and to wrap up their opponent so as not to continually take punches to their face where it could end. Basics, that is all they need ... but as also pointed out ... from somebody that has good experience in this field not just somebody that picked it up and throws it in. It must be effective and intregrated into the curriculum so that it flows ... and grappling is best when it flows.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/03/06 03:31 PM

100% RITE!
Posted by: Umbra_777

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/04/06 09:56 PM

In reply to the first post.

Keep in mind that a TKD person is never going to fight in a tournament that includes groundfighting. So their is really no reason for someone to worry about weither their style can beat BJJ or anything. Because of this the only reason that one would learn grappling is for self defense.

Theirfor I feel that the most important question is how grappling should be taught for self defense.

I personaly feel that grappling should be avoided at all costs in almost all self defense situations. Because of this I feel that students should be taught some basic grappling and then the focus should be on avoiding going to the ground.

-Umbra
Posted by: Mr_Heretik

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/04/06 11:05 PM

What about Hapkido? I've seen many TKD schools that include basic joint locks from Hapkido(which in turn, is taken from aikido(?)). My school doesn't teach anything with with J's in it, but we often have a part of the class where we try to prevent getting taken down by two partners, or have similiar sessions.
Posted by: Stormdragon

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/04/06 11:59 PM

You are a very incomplete fightign witholut ground skills even if it's just basic street fightign defensively from the ground. It's essential for reasons we all know. It jsut depends how much to teach of it and form what perspective; sport or street
Posted by: StuartA

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/05/06 04:35 AM

Quote:

So the question is, should striking arts like TKD teach basic ground skills?



In a word.. yes, as it makes properly taught TKD more rounded and covers the final area of fighting.

Many will say it should be left to the Judo, BJJ guys etc, but we dont do them, so why leave a whole. Granted, as someone said, learning from a core ground based art would be the best idea if you want a brilliant ground game, but being simply capable isnt that difficult with some groundwork as standard training, so helps fill a bad void in TKD.

Many grappling arts incorporate basic striking including BJJ so why not ustilze it in return. We do it all the time and you dont have to learn 101 armbars, just a few ways to dispatch someone should the fight hit the deck!

Stuart
Posted by: Umbra_777

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/05/06 12:49 PM

Sortof a side/related question:
It seems that the majority of people are posting that it is important for a TKD person to know ground fighting, but that still leaves the questions:

Is it better for TKD to pick up some ground fighting or for people to cross train?

I think it might also be good to point out that grappling and groundfighting are not the same thing. The reason this is significant is because for a self defense situation you want to use grappling/clinch work that avoids going to the ground. However the grappling in BJJ generaly is focused twards going to the ground. Aikido on the other hand has grappling that focuses on staying standing but no ground work.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/05/06 02:10 PM

Thing it depends on your goal. If you want to know basic grapple/ground defense, then ideally it would be good to learn that in TKD class, as you can focus on one art and how to develop TKD skills to counter grapple/ground attacks.

If you want to go beyong that and also become good at grappling/groundwork, crosstraining is the way to go.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/08/06 06:32 AM

http://www.worldhapkido.com/videoclips.htm

These are Hapkido sparring clips, but I think it would be posible to translate this into TKD. The first one in particular is a good example of what I meant by the groundwork/grappling "flowing" in TKD.

NB Sparring is a bit pre-meditated in the clips though.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/08/06 06:58 AM

I'm not sure it will flow like that in a self defense situation. I know that my own personal style combining TKD and Jujutsu does not follow that same principle. Basically, I use what works where it does. When I'm standing up, I use TKD. When I'm on the ground I use Jujutsu. There's a rapid switch between the two, rather than flowing between them like in the video. One second I'm thinking in TKD and the next in Jujutsu.

The kicks and sweeps just don't make sense to me in a context where a throw would be more efficient. The pinning on the ground doesn't make sense in the context of submission-oriented self defense. Going to the ground and getting back up without some groundfighting just doesn't seem right in my mind. Whenever I take someone down to the ground I make sure to do my best to keep them there, whether I'm standing up or not. It's just not what I'm used to.

I'm sure it's very effective for them, but it just doesn't make sense to me.

I think that cross training is the way to go because it allows you to make your own decisions about how you want to piece the puzzle together. You learn how to fit your styles together in a way which suits you and works well for you, rather than being told by an instructor how to go about doing it. (Note: I only believe in cross training after gaining a good deal of experience in your base MA [5-10 years or more] so that you are capable of understanding how to fit the mechanics of one MA with another)
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/08/06 08:16 AM

Umbra_777 wrote
Quote:

Sortof a side/related question:
I think it might also be good to point out that grappling and groundfighting are not the same thing. The reason this is significant is because for a self defense situation you want to use grappling/clinch work that avoids going to the ground. However the grappling in BJJ generaly is focused twards going to the ground.




You know, I often hear this sort of stuff from people who don't do a lot of real MMA / Vale Tudo stuff in their training. People always tend to think along these lines:

1. Grappling is something you do to an opponent - NOT something he does to YOU.

2. YOU are never the one being taken down and that takedowns "can't happen to you" (for some reason) and, that you will not ever find yourself having to fight from your back on the ground.

3. ALL self defense situations have you desiring to avoid going to the ground at all costs.


ALL of those ideas are wrong. It illustrates that people only see one part of the whole picture. Pretty interesting and telling at the same time.



Quote:


Aikido on the other hand has grappling that focuses on staying standing but no ground work.




Yeah...if you want to CALL that grappling. I wouldn't.




-John
Posted by: Umbra_777

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/08/06 11:10 AM

Quote:

Umbra_777 wrote
Quote:

Sortof a side/related question:
I think it might also be good to point out that grappling and groundfighting are not the same thing. The reason this is significant is because for a self defense situation you want to use grappling/clinch work that avoids going to the ground. However the grappling in BJJ generaly is focused twards going to the ground.




You know, I often hear this sort of stuff from people who don't do a lot of real MMA / Vale Tudo stuff in their training. People always tend to think along these lines:

1. Grappling is something you do to an opponent - NOT something he does to YOU.

2. YOU are never the one being taken down and that takedowns "can't happen to you" (for some reason) and, that you will not ever find yourself having to fight from your back on the ground.

3. ALL self defense situations have you desiring to avoid going to the ground at all costs.


ALL of those ideas are wrong. It illustrates that people only see one part of the whole picture. Pretty interesting and telling at the same time.



Quote:


Aikido on the other hand has grappling that focuses on staying standing but no ground work.




Yeah...if you want to CALL that grappling. I wouldn't.




-John


Actually my logic was just the opposite. It went more along the lines of:
1.) I don't want to groundfight ever, so their is no reason for me to ever use a takedown that would cause me to groundfight. ("ever" might be a bit of an exageration but it's easyer to explain in black and white terms)

2.) Theirfor if I'm ever groundfighting it will be because someone took me their.

3.) Because of this I should focus primarily on keeping the other guy from taking me to the ground and getting back up if I do go their.

Secondly I refrence aikido primarily for it's use of joint manipulation that doesn't involve progressing to ground fighting (although their are some pins).
Posted by: CatnPhx

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/08/06 12:06 PM

Our TKD school teaches basic ground fighting techniques to black belts only. I agree 100% in this philosophy and will continue with it once I open my own school.
Posted by: oldcoach

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 08:39 AM

Nope.

Because the ground doesn't know how to fight

- Oldcoach
Posted by: Isshinryukid4life

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 11:39 AM

Quote:

No style is perfect, and no style is pure. Grappling techniques of jujutsu can be seen in any art, the high kicks of the korean arts are no longer just practice in dojangs but in dojo's aswell, the multiple open hand strikes of kung fu are no longer just in the chinese arts but in the okinawen /japanese arts aswell.



Do you have any evidence of this?!?

Quote:

There is no perfect style and even if it's not admitted or said out loud, every school is a practitioner of mix martial arts. It would be extremely rare for an instructor to have never been exposed to a second or third style of fighting, not unless they've lived on a secluded islandfor the majority of their life, and even still, they would have to have no televsion.



Are you complaining?Or are you making excuses

Quote:

So the question is, should striking arts like TKD teach basic ground skills?



This is'nt an insult in anyway,But IMHO tkd is way too sport oriented for instructing groundfighting.
Posted by: Umbra_777

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 04:10 PM

Quote:

This is'nt an insult in anyway,But IMHO tkd is way too sport oriented for instructing groundfighting.

For sake of argument BJJ is a sport but it's primarily ground fighting. In addition atleast where I go they also teach self defense (and some judo ground fighting for that matter).
Posted by: oldcoach

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 04:56 PM

Quote:

But IMHO tkd is way too sport oriented for instructing groundfighting


Yep, it should just go away and let the "real" bad-boy martial arts play with their "real" toys.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 05:06 PM

Umbra, there is a Polish ITF fighter who is has actually been very successful in MMA tournaments against grapplers, as has Mark Weir, who is a former TKD world champion. Both guys had the good sense to learn groundwork to supplement their TKD.

With regards to 'not entering a tourney which involves ground fighting', well what about the street? With more people learning ground-based systems and techniques, I would have thought that TKD should consider incorporating these to be able to function against someone who has (possibly) learned to neutralise a stand-up fighter and take them to ground.

I was in Finland in the early 1990's (around the time of the first UFC) and the helsinki WTF TKD guys were doing basic wrestling techniques in their training because most of the street fighters were wrestlers and fighting in a baltic winter often means slipping on the snow and ice and going to ground.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 05:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:

This is'nt an insult in anyway,But IMHO tkd is way too sport oriented for instructing groundfighting.

For sake of argument BJJ is a sport but it's primarily ground fighting. In addition atleast where I go they also teach self defense (and some judo ground fighting for that matter).



I think I get your point, Umbra. All martial arts could be considered "sport", if you are taking "sport" to mean "practicing with rules". If (for example) BJJ allows it's (narrow) technical repetoire to be practiced against full resistance, but (for example) AKK or Krav Maga with a broader technical syllabus, has rules about using resistance on it's practice, how can you say which is "sport"?

I don't think that the question should neccessarily be should TKD teach groundfighting. TKD is an art. The instructor should teach groundfighting with TKD.
Posted by: JKogas

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/11/06 05:32 PM

Umbra_777 wrote
Quote:

For sake of argument BJJ is a sport but it's primarily ground fighting.




Umbra --

Please explain how Brazilian jiu-jitsu is a sport and not an art. I would really like to hear your take on that.


Quote:


In addition at least where I go they also teach self defense (and some judo ground fighting for that matter).




Are there rules in place during your training?



-John
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 03:11 AM

The question is, should TKD teach ground fighting? If the answer is TKD the art that is for practical use the 100% "yes". If you are talking about a sport orientated TKD that they only do Olympic Style sparring then I would say "no".

If your goal is to be the best darn TKD sport sparring competitor and you understand that this is the only thing you can do with these skills then absolutely you do not need to learn ground fighting skills. If you plan to ever use any of your TKD skills in a real life situation then absolutely you will need to know ground fighting skills, there can be no other logical answer then this.

I think that sums it up nicely.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 04:28 AM

Dereck

Can you recommend any Jiu-jitsu books or video/dvd series that would be good to have? I mean other than Gracie bjj. You've been to a couple seminars, could you recomend some of the instructors perhaps I can get some videos on them.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 08:45 AM

Seriously, you're in California and you're asking about videos? ( Man, do I wish I lived there ) That state is one of the best in the US for BJJ, why not just go to a BJJ school and check it out for yourself first hand? That's much better than buying a video.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 09:44 AM

Leo...

After all that hoopla, and skippidy doo da and blah, blah, blah. You still did not drop a name.

I am a recent colege graduate. Unemployed and flat broke. I need a job, a new car and some slacks. I have no money for hobbies and recreational sports. HOwever, what I do have is a brother who recently graduated college with a degree in comp. science and who knows how to get pretty much anything he wants off the internet. And this is why I requested some names.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 10:51 AM

Tek -

Look in the MMA forum. There are several excellent instructional vids already posted there.
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 11:04 AM

Ahh, sorry about that mate. Can't be wasting precious cash on stuff like that when you're a little low. I'm sure you'll get to training when your income picks up a bit.

Never the less, you can probably get an introductory lesson or two on the cheap if you ask around at local schools. Who knows, maybe they've got a storage cabinet they need cleaning out or maybe the school needs a new paint job which you could help out with in return for a lesson or two. Never know until you try.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/12/06 04:40 PM

Quote:

Dereck

Can you recommend any Jiu-jitsu books or video/dvd series that would be good to have? I mean other than Gracie bjj. You've been to a couple seminars, could you recomend some of the instructors perhaps I can get some videos on them.



Hey Tek, to be honest I've never read any books and probably won't as I don't learn to well from reading but more from viewing and/or hands on. I haven't done too many seminars but the few I did were David Meyer's (Machado Black Belt; my Instructor's Instructor), who came and taught a whole Sunday on arm bars and some other related techniques, plus George St. Pierre's MMA seminar. I did get a copy of David's arm bar DVD from another student that I have reviewed a few times and use some of those techniques. I also get many videos directly from the grappling forum and if on Google or Youtube I download to my laptop so that I have to take to class so I can work on them with other who are also interested in trying new things.

After watching many videos I can determine if I find easy to learn or hard and then decide if to work on them. Here are some of my favorites:

Abhaya BJJ: http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=abhaya+bjj&hl=en&page=1&lv=0&so=2

Nogueira Instructional Video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6128720650855456750&q=nogueira&hl=en

Jean Jacques Machado Techniques (I'm currently training 1,2 & 4): http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=38975

Again I try not to get overwhelmed with too many techniques and just pick a few to try and perfect and then when in class we get to free roll, I will continually try to master them more. Others will find them interesting and I will teach them as well further solidifing them to my memory. Plus I have an excellent Instructor that teaches good basics and works with me on other techniques. If it wasn't for him I would not know as much as I do now or be able to recognize techniques that are more learnable for my level.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/14/06 07:42 PM

Believe it or not, TKD once did teach groundfighting. Back when I started (this was in 1982), ground fighting and learning to break out of holds was a standard feature of TKD training (at least in ITF schools--I do not know what the WTF folks were up to).

That changed as TKD gradually changed from a martial art into a martial sport. Today's TKD schools, with a few exceptions, are mostly competition-oriented. Since ground fighting has no place in competative TKD, most schools no longer bother with it.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/15/06 03:57 AM

Agreed but thankfully there are some good schools out there still.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/16/06 11:42 AM

Quote:

The question is, should TKD teach ground fighting? If the answer is TKD the art that is for practical use the 100% "yes". If you are talking about a sport orientated TKD that they only do Olympic Style sparring then I would say "no".

If your goal is to be the best darn TKD sport sparring competitor and you understand that this is the only thing you can do with these skills then absolutely you do not need to learn ground fighting skills. If you plan to ever use any of your TKD skills in a real life situation then absolutely you will need to know ground fighting skills, there can be no other logical answer then this.

I think that sums it up nicely.




It does sum it up nicely!
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/16/06 11:47 AM

Quote:

Believe it or not, TKD once did teach groundfighting. Back when I started (this was in 1982), ground fighting and learning to break out of holds was a standard feature of TKD training (at least in ITF schools--I do not know what the WTF folks were up to).

That changed as TKD gradually changed from a martial art into a martial sport. Today's TKD schools, with a few exceptions, are mostly competition-oriented. Since ground fighting has no place in competative TKD, most schools no longer bother with it.




Yes Sir, you are right. Too many so called Taekwon-Do schools teach sport & a watered down version of a MA! In a good Taekwon-Do school, there should be an all around program that helps the student progess mentally & physically. When it comes to SD, the training must be realistic, to be effective. Under this scenario, SD must include fighting on the floor, because realistically, this may happen, so the student must be prepared. However, the fighting in many schools in just sport or competition/rule oriented. Too bad, as the students suffer. But of course, to each their own, PROVIDED that the advertising DOES NOT CALL IT SELF DEFENSE!
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/16/06 02:42 PM

ITFunity

Does Gen. Choi, make reference about ground grappling in his TKD encyclopedia? Does he demonstrate ground techniques or exercises to use incase a fight goes to the ground?
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/16/06 06:44 PM

There is a whole volume dedicated to fighting, with several additional sections on self defense. There are also some sections that have fighting from/on the ground etc. However, I do not think that these instructions go anywhere near the level of depth required for strong grappling instruction.
Many TKD students are not even exposed to this aspect. It is a shame, as if they were to practice with realism, they would find themselves on the floor, where they MUST contimue to fight. It is that process that will help open eyes & then open minds to learn the additional techniques that are needed to be a well rounded fighter.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/17/06 03:27 AM

I may be getting off base here but could it be that in the beginning many did learn the aspect of ground skills but as things were more commercialized because of Olympic TKD, and because many low level black belts who were good at sparring decided to open schools and taught what they knew best, that everything got watered so that most TKD schools did not have any ground skills and those that did were few or were only taught at the black belt levels?
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/17/06 11:32 AM

Quote:

I may be getting off base here but could it be that in the beginning many did learn the aspect of ground skills but as things were more commercialized because of Olympic TKD, and because many low level black belts who were good at sparring decided to open schools and taught what they knew best, that everything got watered so that most TKD schools did not have any ground skills and those that did were few or were only taught at the black belt levels?




Yes, I think you are dead on with your observation! In fact, the more popular a MA gets, the more likely it is to get watered down. I think that is the case with most everything in life. I have often heard that TKD is the world's most popular MA. I don't know why, because from what I see, many are simply throwing their hard earned money away. This is sad, as most people do not know what a MA is. When they join a school, it is so easy for them to be ripped off. Even when they are not being out & out ripped off, many TKD instructors are teaching a watered down version, without even realizing it. All at the expense of the student & the Art. The same goes for many ITF schools. Escept here, they have no excuse. There was a great deal of work by the Founder, for almost 60 years of teaching his Art. He traveled the world probably more times than any other teacher. He was able to obtain an unprecedented level of worldwide standardization. However, that emphasis was mostly on patterns & movement (tournament rules as well).
Still there is no execuse for an ITF school to be watered down, even though many are. There is a comprehensive 15 volume encylopedia, that has no equal (to my knowledge). Still, many ignore the instructions & the full text, thereby cheating their students & harming their Art. When one does not train with realism, they can't be expected to fully hone SD skills.

Years ago, there was just MA schools. They specialized in self defense. It was all new for Westerners. Slowly, as the public became more aware & shows like Karate Kid, Ninja Turtles appeared, it became more of a child's activity. Adults, looking for real SD, starting to join the MMA & combat schools that appeared to fill the void.

One must realize what they want. Then they have to do some research & comparision, just like buying a car or any other major move in life (ie. academic school search for college). Then they must make the move to the school that will most closely afford the learning experience they desire. Once there, they must keep to their focus or get a good enough explanation of why the thrust of the school has changed.
Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/17/06 01:44 PM

Tek9,

Gen. Choi does not make many references to grappling or groundfighting per se--maybe I was not clear about what I meant by "ground fighting."

Years ago, it was pretty standard in ITF schools to teach students how to break out of holds and what to do if knocked to the ground. However, the goal was not to out-wrestle the oppoent; we knew perfectly well wrestling was not our forte. The object was to get back into striking distance as soon as possible--i.e. to return the fight to the mode we were comfortable in.
Posted by: tkd_high_green

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/17/06 04:02 PM

We certainly don't grapple, but we do practice strikes and blocks from the ground, kneeling or on your back. You certainly see some of this in the 2nd don pattern Choon-Jang, where you drop to your knees.

Laura
Posted by: StuartA

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/17/06 10:11 PM

Quote:

ITFunity

Does Gen. Choi, make reference about ground grappling in his TKD encyclopedia? Does he demonstrate ground techniques or exercises to use incase a fight goes to the ground?



Allow me to jump in before Mr Unity.

His book demonstrate strikes from the ground (seated & prone positions), as well as throws etc.

Its not groundfighting as well know it today (ie. ground grappling, rollin etc). This was never part of the standard TKD curriculium and the previous poster who did it in the 80's, all I can think of is that the instructor had the forsight to bring it in from another source (ie. judo).

That said, its something all clubs should try to intergrate these days, whether its considered proper TKD or not! We do it, but I dont pretend its TKD.. I call it the 'weak link in the chain'

Stuart
Posted by: Fletch1

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/17/06 11:03 PM

"So the question is, should striking arts like TKD teach basic ground skills?"

If the instructor has legitimate skill and knowledge that he or she can "back up", then yes. If the instructor has only seminar level skill like most of the ATA "certified" instructors who teach grappling to their students....then no.

Teaching grappling badly is worse than not teaching it at all.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/18/06 03:49 AM

Agreed and this goes for teaching any skills.
Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Should TKD teach ground fighting? - 10/19/06 10:38 PM

Yes Mr. A, u r 100% cOrrect.

However, Ambassador Choi never taught sparring techniques. He taught 3,200 fundamental movements, including throws, sweeps, kicks, locks, releases, leverage & strikes from the floor, etc. The bottom line is, this can most definately be seen as the weak link. I prefer to look at it as, if you are practicing with realism (within obvious limits) & utilize all of these techniques, one can not help going to the ground, as it is bound to happen. As such, one must adapt their fighting skills as such. Just like he never taught tournament sparring, other than general observations, he encouraged us to adapt the wide range of techniques to our abilities & the particular situation at hand.

It is & always was in my mine, to have the individual instructor coach fighting skills. They are the ones that know their charges capabilities & limitations. Certainly, a good ITF school, or instructor (any school or instructor for that matter), must expose their students to all of the above. The students should develop their focus, depending on the needs, desires - shaped & guided by the coach (taecher).