'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries?

Posted by: sgtZipper

'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 06:42 AM

So in TKD we do patterns and perform our techniques in the 'air' (read: with no resistence). Now I always want to kick and punch my best (technique must result in full power right?), but I feel my joints, especially my left knee, begins to hurt and 'shift', especially when I do a Dollyo Chagi.
Can it be the technique that needs some adjustments or do I just have to hold back? Anyone else got simulair problems?
Posted by: Marishiten

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:01 AM

I believe the patterns done in the 'air' you speak of is called kata.
I don't do TKD, but you either may have something wrong with your joints or you really might need to improve your technique. I don't know the likelyhood of your joints hurting and shifting if the technique isn't right ... you could ask your master. But it's most likely something to do with your joints, so have them checked out.
Posted by: crablord

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:21 AM

lol kata hurting your joints? come on.. He probably means they have to shadow box kind of thing, If it were me id hold back a bit, dont kick at full force when you kick the air lol, ive done my knee in once when i side kicked the air really fast. So yeah, take it easy.
Posted by: Marishiten

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:27 AM

yes and it's probably worth mentioning that the point isn't to kick/punch as hard as you can. If your form and technique isn't up to par yet with what it's supposed to be, I advise working on that first.
Posted by: crablord

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:31 AM

yep, if they wanted you to hit hard theyd make you hit a bag. Bag = Hard - Air = Technique
Posted by: sgtZipper

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:42 AM

I'm talking about performing kicks during Tuls (the 'kata' like patterns) and random practice. It is not that I am kicking my hardest without thinking about technique, contrariwise I DO kick using good technique (not that I kick so hard that I get unbalanced), but I meant maybe my joints can't take the 'power' provided by the technique?
So I just wanted to know, do you guys have any problems with this? I guess I already know the answer to my problem, which is to take it easy on the joints;)
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:43 AM

I suspect you punch or kick to "full extension" in the air, and throw all that force to your joints. Keeping the joints slightly flexed will alleviate much of that problem or eliminate it all together.

Keeping your hip back while kicking can also cause the mechanics of your kick to be incorrect and cause the angle you're trying to execute the kick to stress the knees. Talk to your sensei and have them watch what you're doing and correct your body posture.

If you don't get any changes, you might want to have it medically examined to see if its a medical problem.

Posted by: sgtZipper

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 07:53 AM

Ok, thanks, the hip might indeed be the cause of the knee 'snapping'. So what you are saying is to 'throw' the hip more forwards? I recall one of my Sabums mentioning it.
I think the problems began recently when I bought a punching bag, when kicking it I forgot to think about the technique, I was just bringing op the leg instead of first pulling my knee up. So in practice I had to start all over again, because the technique was all gone. When training for the 1st degree I got some notes from my Sabums, so I'd check them out, because maybe there might be some pointers.
Thanks, you somehow got me thinking haha
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 01:56 PM

One of the first things we teach students in karate is to roll their lower hips forward with any kicking technique. That essentially puts your hip joint vertical with the floor, rather than over your heel and pointed at your toe. It frees up the mechanics of the kick considerably. FWIW

Posted by: sgtZipper

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 02:25 PM

So I went through the notes I got from my Sabums, and indeed there was a note for the Dollyo Chagi. Like you said, the hip is ought to be in that direction, so that the heel of the foot is pointed upwards (I was doing this wrong already haha). Well I hope this will solve the problem of the Dollyo, though I will still hold back on kicking too hard, because I first want the knee to restore. So I think this was a matter of technique.
Posted by: Supremor

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/17/06 04:00 PM

WristTwister's identified what I see as the problem already. Don't over extend the joint- you're looking to straighten the arms and legs, not lock out.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/19/06 02:37 PM

Some people complain that they feel pain in their joints. Usually elbows and knees when they air punch and kick with speed and strenght.

I myself am not one of those people. When I practice forms I use full power however, to maintain balance and proper stance I also use control.

For example, when I shadow spar I use full power aswell and if I were to throw a rear hand punch I would tend to lean my body slightly more forward than when I would do forms. Durring forms I twist my hips for power BUT I maintain a straight posture, I DO NOT lean forward. When I shadow spar I tend to lean my body forward into the punch while still maintaining complete balance.

The difference is because forms are formal, while shadow boxing is not. Either way though, when I attack I go ful power. When I do a round, side, back and front kick, I straighten my leg.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/19/06 02:42 PM

If it's not a medical proplem and it's not serious. Then perhaps it could be lack of stretching. However, if it's not that, then perhaps I suggest you were a knee brace. As for myself I've dislocated both my left and right knees. Fortunately I didn't hurt the ligaments, but I sometimes feel that my knee is just not being held together as tightly as before. When it feels lose, or when I feel it cannot support me. I wear a kneed brace.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/19/06 03:30 PM

Quote:

As for myself I've dislocated both my left and right knees. Fortunately I didn't hurt the ligaments, but I sometimes feel that my knee is just not being held together as tightly as before. When it feels lose, or when I feel it cannot support me. I wear a kneed brace.




I read this and then your previous post ... perhaps stop kicking full force in the air and shadow boxing.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/19/06 04:01 PM

I dislocated my first knee in my first year of martial arts practice. I was practicing jumping high kicks in my cement floored garage.

Jumping as high as I can straight up into the air then high kicking, unfortunetly at the time my re-chambers where not as quick and I would land on one leg. My instructor never warned me about practice high juping kicks without mats... I learned the hard way, when I destroyed my left knee.

My right knee was dislocacted durring sparring. I was swept wrong. Instead of attacking the back of the knee, my sparring partner hit the side of my knee.

That clear it up for you? When I refer to pain in my knee's i's usually a pinching feeling or lack of power in the knee. As I said, I wear a brace when this happends.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/19/06 09:15 PM

Cleared it up good. Take it easy still because you don't want to make things worse. Take care of yourself Tek.
Posted by: MastaFighta

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/20/06 01:15 AM

Newton's First Law of Motion - "Objects in motion tend to stay in motion, and objects at rest tend to stay at rest unless an outside force acts upon them."

Newton's Second Law of Motion - "The rate of change of the momentum of a body is directly proportional to the net force acting on it, and the direction of the change in momentum takes place in the direction of the net force."

Newton's Third Law of Motion - "To every action there is an equal but opposite reaction."

The object in motion, for example, is your arm when you punch. The only way your arm will stop is if another force acts upon it which in this case happens to be you contracting your muscles to halt the motion. Usually the amount of force needed to stop motion needs to be equal to the force used to start it. As you try stopping the movement of your arm, the momentum is still moving forward as the force you are exerting is moving backwards, thus placing stress upon your joints.

I hope that makes sense, at least from a scientific perspecitve. If not then I apologize.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/21/06 04:03 AM

If you don't extend your leg completely or punch with bad intentions how are you training?

Not extending the leg, is poor technique, works the muscle less and is a bad habit which can spill over to your sparring. Further, by not extending the leg and using power behind your technique your not commiting to the attack which is very bad psychologically. Especially if your oppoenent catches wif of your fear of committing, they will eat you alive.

Example: If your constantly on the defense durring sparring or durring a match, your opponent will gain confidence and momentum, you on the other hand lose any advantage you might have had.

Never let them see you sweat.

-Tek
Posted by: Dereck

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/21/06 09:29 AM

Question to me? I personally don't like kicking and punching into the air but I do it as that is some of the drills we do. Punching I have no problem but kicking I hold back. I try to complete the technique but lighter and with control. I much perfer kicking paddles as then I can kick through it.

I've found for myself I cannot kick very high when it comes to the air. Kicks are usually knee/groin level when kicking in the air, with the exception of step side kicks and front kicks, but when kicking to paddles I can easily kick chest height. Also a little reserved about kicking to hard as I have a bum left knee.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/21/06 09:38 AM

It was a general question to anyone.

I prefer kicking paddles or chest protector drills. But when we do warm up line drills we kick the air. I like to extend my leg completely to get full range of motion and work te muscles more. I don't put so much power that I lose control of myself and trip over. But I do extend my leg completely. For side kicks, round kicks, back and front kicks, I lock my knee's when I kick and then quickly re-chamber.

But yea, wen it comes to kicking drills I prefer paddle and chest protector drills.

Much of Olym[ic style kicking drills are done with a forward momentum. Meaning many of the kicks are down with footwork. Very little is a kick down in stationary position. And even then we have like foot work for stationary position.
Posted by: gregc618

Re: 'Air' punching and kicking result in injuries? - 09/27/06 11:14 PM

Dont extend the joint in a punch or kick. Also keep the elbow or knee slightly bent. And pull the technique back if there is no pyhsical target to hit. But the real key is to not extend the joints as if you were going to hit a real target.