Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class

Posted by: BrianS

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 02:27 PM

Oh boy,such is the mindset.

TKD is sport oriented,face it. Whhat's wrong with getting the kids involved in martial arts?Would you rather them be out paintballing transients?

Quote:

I remember my dad telling me when he practiced TKD as a kid growing up in Korea decades ago, they sparred full contact without gear with bare knuckles.

With that kind of sparring,you wouldn't be sparring very much. All the students would be on the 'too injured to train' list.

I have never personally seen a TKD school without kids or that employs "serious combat training" lol.

I'm just sayin'...

Posted by: StormDOA

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 02:34 PM

yeah i totally agree with both of you, really there are lots of good TKD schools out there. I try to run one myself, but unfortunately it is hard to keep pride in TKD in general because there are so many schools that have went totally comercial. And some of these are good schools, my own school has a kids only class they work hard and they have fun, they learn discipline and social rules an I can hnestly say I like them, they are good kids. But none the less, having kids in class has diminished the adult aspect of it, even though I fight against it. It is too bad TKD cannot have a universalized junior black belt rule, but unfortunately as an art we are just too big now, I guess thats the downside of being popular in any given period.At any rate, to stp rambling, I will continue to try to keep a serious adult class that teaches a quality martial art and combat system to my students and just hope others are doing the same.

Posted by: KarlHTKDSTUDENT

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 02:43 PM

I do a Martial Arts class at my school that teaches Tae Kwon Do with other other arts mixed in. We do learn some stuff that is more sports orientated, but most of the techniques are taught to be able to be used in a real combat situation, where you would have to stop your attacker as fast as possible.
-Karl

Posted by: stormbringer

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 03:20 PM

Where I go has an after school program, and the ages are broken up with the youngest being of elementary age and the junior high and high school has their own age group. The elementary group gets neon colors and no black belt but the jh and hs get normal colors. They seem to be about as varied in skill as our adult class. But none of them are given their belts. They have to earn them like everyone else.

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 03:25 PM

I agree with Brian, I see nothing wrong with kids doing martial arts. They have to start somewhere so why not as a kid? I'd rather see them doing this where they can do it for life should they find that love then becoming a deliquent or something.

A lot of Taekwondo schools are sport orientated and I see nothing wrong with that if that is what you are looking for. This would be no different then kids joining soccer or baseball or any other sport. Kids like to compete so let them. They love trophies and stuff and so do their parents so why would not somebody cater to that.

There are schools that are not sports orientated even for kids, or in my schools case a good balance. Kids learn respect and are not allowed to talk and have to follow strict guidelines. Their parents are told this upfront and are involved in everything to do with their kid including providing an "attitude" stripe that is the 5th required for children to test. This stripe can be taken away at anytime by the Instructor or the parents and I've seen it done. The majority of the kids in our school are vey well disiplined. However thankfully children and juniors get taught at a different time then the adults so I see them train but do not train with them.

You have to remember children can only take in and understand so much so "combat training" can only be minimal and must be simple things that they can remember. Repetition is good on the basics they learn ... heck they are good for everybody.

Now if a school is nothing more then kids running around screaming, playing games and more like a play school or day care ... definitely not my cup a tea.

Posted by: mudotkd

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 04:51 PM

I never said there was something wrong with kids doing Taekwondo.

But there is something wrong when the instructor caters to kids and the overall atmosphere is not very serious because of this.

This is the case for most of the Taekwondo schools, regardless of federation or organization. You might say then, "Oh, just join the adult classes and you can forget all about the kids." If you have an instructor that caters to kids and does not promote a serious and mature atmosphere, the trend is likely to permeate into the adult classes as well. If you look at Judo, Kickboxing, Boxing, or Kyokushin Karate, there is no catering to kids and the adult classes are very serious and mature. These arts have remained unspoiled and untouced by the commercialization powers of little tiny kiddie martial artists.

Lots of tiny kiddie martial artists + an instructor that cares too much about them

= Commercialization / Watering-down

Posted by: StormDOA

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 05:07 PM

I agree with Mudo, but I really think TKD is not for kids, you can teach them some rudimentary sport tae kwon do since that is really the age group, but to focus on them and make them able to achieve a actual rank I think is foolish in most cases. There are many other activities that build the same thing as TKD in kids that are just doing it for an activity, idealy in my opinion a martial art should have an age requirement minimum of like 12 at the youngest.Too many start get rank ad then grow out of their bodies or do not understand the implications of the discipline and techniques

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 05:20 PM

All valid points. The thing is, some kids can pick up on things well and will excell at it. It is too bad there wasn't a weeding out process required that would be able to help determine who was mature enough to attend. With that said, many juniors and some adults may not even be mature enough ... but those that aren't many gain it from doing martial arts. Sort of a damned if you do and damned if you don't scenario.

Posted by: mudotkd

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 05:23 PM

Part of the problem is, modern TKD training is too "easy". I'm afraid to call it that as I feel I'm about to be flamed in about 5 seconds. I didn't say TKD is ineffective. But the training is too "easy" and suitable for kids.

Kicking only sparring with tons of foam protecion equipment is attractive to kids who don't want to get hurt. While kids tend to stay away from Judo for fear of getting thrown and submitted. Kids tend to stay away from Muay Thai and Kyokushin Karate due to the level of contact involved and the intensity.

With that said, a large part of the blame lies with the instructor who takes advantage of these kids' desire for a safe, easy-going martial art b encouraging it even more and commercializing the way the teach the art to draw in even more kids of the same type.

Posted by: StormDOA

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 05:26 PM

I agree, though as i said before there are still tons of good schools out there unfortunately there are also tons of McDojangs

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 05:29 PM

Quote:

I agree, though as i said before there are still tons of good schools out there unfortunately there are also tons of McDojangs

This I will also agree with.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 06:20 PM

Easy is not the word your looking for, safe is the word you should be using. As an adult, I am 100% satisfied with the safety measures taken in TKD.

You seem to like to mention MT and kyokushin a lot. First MT is more about fighting than self defense. Kyokushin teaches the same techniques that TKD teaches. It is my opinion that you are just reffering to the sparring and not the art itself. If this is the case then it is a personal preference in the way you train and not in the art or school.

MT is not known for teaching self defense techniques, they are fighting closed fist, they don't teach escape techniques which are used in self defense. MT includes sweeps, throws, elbows, knees, punches and kicks. So does any other martial art.

Kyokushin practices without padding, thats a personal choice, doesn't mean it's more efective than practicing with pads.

My head gear and chest protector are the only heavy pading I use. My shin and forearm gaurds are light pads and very cheap to purchase.

Boxers use seven ounce gloves when they box and for practice they use head gear. This doesn't take away anything from their skill when throwing punches.

If TKD did't use a chest protectors we'd end up with broken ribs, because we spar full contact using our kicks which are three to four times more powerul than our punches.

"With that said, a large part of the blame lies with the instructor who takes advantage of these kids' desire for a safe, easy-going martial art by encouraging it even more and commercializing the way the teach the art to draw in even more kids of the same type."

What blame? They are intrducing sparring in a safe and motivating manner, when these "kids" get older they will be more prepared to spar than any oter student who is just starting. Because they would have already gotten used to hurdles that keep most MAist from sparring. If intensity you mean pain, thats a simple matter to get over. You give what you get. But fear, propper technique, strategy, al that experience is something you just don't develope instantly.

Posted by: StormDOA

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 09:00 PM

Plus I think the market for TKD has went down so many instructors combine kids and adult classes, which I have always observed as a disaster
And I think it is sometimes more difficult for adults to overcome the uncomfortableness of classes when they are lining up next to 8 year olds that outrank them and it is even worse when the kids have come up in a watered down or kid version of the class
I have a 330 lb. 6 ft. 6 30 year old green belt, when we visit other classes it is hilarious to see them line up next to each other, but as I said I think it is hard on him, most kids just cannot take that level of intensity that is critical for a good martial arts class of any kind

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 10:51 PM

Not sure if intensity is the right word because it's the kids, teens and 20's year olds that I see who work at a high intensity level in our schools. Usually the parents or the "adults" 35+ usually they are doing low intensity stuff, like practicing one steps, light contact sparring.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 11:04 PM

Must you pay extra for the TKD training at this bally's or does the instructor only make money from belt tests? Just remember although TKD for some is a an avenue to which they focus on spirituality, new cultures, self exploration and sports, but, it's also business and the instructors gotta eat.

Posted by: StormDOA

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/20/06 11:29 PM

"but, it's also business and the instructors gotta eat"
I agree, which is why I strongly advocate not instructing for a living, it makes an instructor too dependent on his students, I talked a friend of mine who is a teacher for West Coast TKD. Course the downside is it is hard to have a good dojang if you only teach part time

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 12:04 AM

Quote:

Not sure if intensity is the right word because it's the kids, teens and 20's year olds that I see who work at a high intensity level in our schools. Usually the parents or the "adults" 35+ usually they are doing low intensity stuff, like practicing one steps, light contact sparring.

Ouch, I'm 37 going on 38. In my opinion it seems that it is up to the individual and what they want out of the class. At my age I am pushing things still and more then many plus there are a few older people then me that push it as well. In fact the people that push the most in our school are around my age. Of course there are many that are not looking for the same thing and are doing lower intensity and stay away from days we grapple or toss each other around. I can understand as I stay away from sparring days as I hate sparring but if I know it is sparring day and takedowns are allowed then I'm there.

I guess I'm this age but still thinking I'm 16 years old and perhaps why I push things sometimes too much and why I have so many aches and pains. Maybe I am getting older ... but shhhhh ... don't tell me.

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 01:57 AM

Pardon my generalism, I didn't mean that a 35+ couldn't work at high intensity level, just that many of the adults in our school are there for self defense and not sport. They are no trying to learn how to take someone down and submit them. The only high intensity work out is during conditioning drills. Many of the adlts are parents who want to get into the same hobbies as their kids. We emphasize a family atmosphere.

For the record, I taught at a gym for free for 3+ years, I only recived pay from parents when kids tested for belts, I charged 25 dollars per test. I taught 2 classes 2 times a week. I did not get payed to teach, it was a deal I worked out with the gym for free membership for me and my famly. I based my gradings on performance mostly, kids were very good with attendance considering it was only 2 clases per week. Testing was far inbetween, we had 6 belts, one stripe for five of those belts. White, yellow, green, blue, red, black.

Now although I said I did 2 classes 1 our each, I was always there usually for nearly 4 hours. The second classes usually ran for 2-4 hours long + the extra help I gave for any student regarding forms and sparring and one steps and belt preperation.

Now this gym really appreciated me well they appreciated what I was doing, because they had a child care that was over flooded and within one year I took all their kids, every single kid from that gym was in my class. From the shy ones to the little trouble makers from hell. I had kids who wanted to be there and those who parents wanted them there. People were joining the gym just so their kids could recived free tkd lessons. In seeing this y instructor has me focus on just sports, so I cut out the step sparring and only taught it to my teenage students. We emphasized forms for elt promotion and sparring + I mae sure each and everyone one of those kids new what the tenets were.

My youngest students was 3 and my eldest was 70. Martial arts isn't just about fighting and techniques, fighting itself isn't an art...and it's nothing really to be appreciated. I mean the lesson is, we learn to fight so that we never have to, that is what a good teacher teaches. Now that I think about it, why do we even discuss if techniques are usefel or useless, when the technique does't matter it's how we perform the technique which makes us artist...isn't it? We arn't warriors, otherwise we would be fighting in some war right now, we arn't soldiers otherwise we'd have a gun in our hands.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 02:54 AM

Quote:

If you look at Judo, Kickboxing, Boxing, or Kyokushin Karate, there is no catering to kids and the adult classes are very serious and mature. These arts have remained unspoiled and untouced by the commercialization powers of little tiny kiddie martial artists.

It depends what you mean by 'catering for kiddies'. Judo restricts locks and chokes for juniors and Kyokushin certainly has a children's programme.

If, as I suspect you do, you mean they don't compromise their integrity of the art for the sake of commercialisation, then I fully agree with you.

Posted by: JasonM

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 06:17 AM

Quote:

" If you have an instructor that caters to kids and does not promote a serious and mature atmosphere,

I think you said it perfectly and should read what you typed. Matured is the key word. Remember you are talking about kids, young ones. They aren't obviously matured as their adult counterpart. Secondly, I belong to bally's and not impressed with their "TMA" or whatever they are calling it. Like some have said, it is still a good thing for the kids. If you don't like it move on and find a school that drills ya at kicking the beams in the school.

Posted by: oldcoach

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 07:45 AM

Ahh, yes.

But first, we each need to define what we mean by "martial arts".

Making distinctions about other people's art or training methods according to our own definition will naturally color our view of the effectiveness, or lack thereof, of "their" methods.

Posted by: Eveal

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 09:20 AM

McDojos are cool with me because they spark the interest of children and adults. Then they notice that the level of competition might not be for them and they move to a hard more full contact type of martial arts.

Posted by: trevek

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 07/21/06 11:15 AM

Having read the earlier post I see what yopu mean. Yes, I think one of the benefits of MA for kids is discipline and any compromise of it is not good.

I'm not suggesting beating the little darlings with sticks (although...) or mega Cobra-Kai style routines, but a firm control is definately necessary. After all, these kids are getting taught potentially dangerous stuff.

I seem to recall some of the clubs I've trained with sometimes allowed kids to train with adults (although there were often kids classes as well). This was useful as the kids had to behave and train seriously.

As a junior judoka in 1970's discipline was pretty good. Not least because it was before the PC brigade got involved and also cos there were often big brothers and sisters who made sure you behaved!!!!

Posted by: mcmillintkd

Bally's TDK in TKD Times - 08/10/06 06:11 PM

... though it may be a bit off the topic from where this thread is going, but the lastest issue of TKD Times has an article on Bally's TKD. I found it interesting that the implication that only Koreans can teach serious TKD.

Posted by: ITFunity

Re: Bally's TDK in TKD Times - 08/13/06 05:35 PM

Yes, you beat me to it, the latest issue does have an article on Bally's TKD. It does leave the reader with the impression that it is better to have a Korean teach it. They added that it was getting harder, post 9/11 2001, to get the Korean instructors visas to come to the USA. The ROKorea is not part of the visa waiver program yet, so even if they wished to just travel here for vacation, they need a visa.
I think Taekwon-Do is for all ages. What differs is the output expected for different age groups. I am afraid that many martial arts have been watered down, childrenized if I may. That is probably 1 of the main reasons MMAs have become so popular, as amny of the traditional classes have become kiddy play areas or airconditioned sweat programs, where the students don't really want to sweat.

Posted by: TkdWookie

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/31/06 12:14 AM

Since I seem to be the only person here who is a member of TMA I guess I will put my two cents in...

First I would suggest not judging the quality by watching a childs class. Whatever your thoughts on if a school should teach childeren the child classes will by their very nature be less disciplined and much more chaotic, these are, after all, kids.

I tested a number of "real" schools before deciding on this one. I found all of them to have strong points and weak ones. For the most part I was unimpressed with what I found at other schools. Not that they were bad, just that for me they didn't work. I was really doubtful about TMA and only went because a friend was in it. I wanted a real school. After the first class (adult class) I was hooked.

I am sure there are plenty of McDojo's out there that live up to the name, and that I am very lucky to have the instructors I do, but my school works great for me. I have been to a number of competitions and gone to other schools and have found that we are on par with everyone else. We have some students that are amazing, and some that are not so good, but are getting what they need out of the school.

If anyone is in Minneapolis and feels like trying one of our classes please let me know, I would love to talk to a "real" student after taking one of out McClasses.

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/31/06 01:36 AM

Quote:

We have some students that are amazing, and some that are not so good, but are getting what they need out of the school.

I think you summed up most schools. As long as there people involved with different personalities, different desires, different wants, different drives, different body styles, different whatever ... then this will never change and will be the only true constant.

Good on you and stick with it if you love it. I guess until somebody has walked in your shoes then they will never know. You've left an open invitation and that is all you can do.

Posted by: blascun2k

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/31/06 02:04 PM

I was merely pointing out my observations, each location may be different. But did I mention you MUST sign a 3 year contract to join TMA? Or atleast thats what the instructor told me.

Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/31/06 02:08 PM

I got as far as "Bally's" and stopped reading.

Posted by: fileboy2002

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 10/27/06 04:26 PM

I have noticed this myself, and it is discouraging. When I started TKD back in the ealry 1908s, I attended a "children's class." Most students ranged in age from about 11 to 14. Nowadays, it seems most TKD schools are overrun with toddlers.

Posted by: Zombie Zero

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 10/27/06 04:29 PM

A co-worker recently told me about how his 5 year-old is getting ready to test for her black belt.

Posted by: MattJ

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 10/27/06 04:30 PM

Woof.

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 10/27/06 05:21 PM

Quote:

When I started TKD back in the ealry 1908s ...

This would make you around 98 years old ... if I did my math right. When do you become fileman?

Posted by: vegantkd

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 10/27/06 09:35 PM

Quote:

A co-worker recently told me about how his 5 year-old is getting ready to test for her black belt.

Well that's great she must be really dedicated to have started at 2 years old. haha.

Posted by: Dervish

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 11/02/06 09:05 AM

Quote:

Then they all punched a time card, I asked one of the parents what that was about, they said they can't test for their next stripe unless they have a certain amount of time.

When I took TKD well over a decade ago, the dojang I went to had these cards, however the time seemed to only serve as a guideline, one wasn't automatically promoted once they hit a certain amount of time.

My dojang seemed to have competent teachers, but it definetely had some McDojang tendencies (not so much the cards, but I noticed when I was checking out dojos for other martial arts in the past few months, none of them seemed to have this card system).

Posted by: TeK9

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 11/02/06 01:36 PM

I suppose the card system is a pretty good way to make sure youare putting in a good ammount of time at the dojang. But remember it's just one form of measure, it's a minimum requirement which measures length of time. This is because westerners are goal orientated and like to see reseults...belt tests. However, you will find that most instructor do not strictly go by the time card, they take into consideration skill level aswell.

If you were training in the orient you would most likely not have goals, the practice of MA there is more like a journey, where the experience matters more than the final outcome.

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 11/02/06 01:58 PM

When coming to class we do have cards we pull out. The card is broken down into what days we have (A,B,C,D,E & F) and that day gets initialed by the Instructor. This he logs into the computer and is able to see what classes a student comes to most often and ones that they are neglecting in their training to see where there may be some weak points. For myself I have a lot of "E" classes (Grappling) and very few "D" classes (Sparring) so I know I need to work in that area more. Plus with these cards he can see how much time you've put in as there are minimal times per belt level you must have in order to move on and I can honestly say that by the time the majority have the skills to move on, they've surpassed the required class time. A few have been allowed prior to this if they have the skill set but this is only a guideline. Plus the cards allow the Instructor to know who was there and when as trying to remember would be asking a lot ... though I'm sure he could as his memory is amazing. That he can remember everybody's name ... and I mean everybody's name including spouses, children or parents ... truly amazing.

Posted by: lmmuaythai

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 12/26/06 12:23 PM

Hello everyone I just wanted everyone to no that no every tma is the same. I Do the Tma at ballys and i Love IT! Not only that my father is a 3rd degree black belt and we have serched for 2 years trying to find someone that is actually registered in a real degree in martial arts! Not only that my master is a korean 5th degree black belt and is a 4th degree black belt in hopkito, I would like everyone to no that he is one of the best masters i have trained under and I am No where in shame since i have won every tournament under him. On top of that i Also train under sakson janjira WHO IS A 6time MUAY thaI thailand kickboxing champ. Both of my masters give me the best workouts i have ever had. On top of that i Think its funny that even my muay thai master has recognized my tae kwon do master and has even said he is a incredible instructor. IF anyone has any questions on tma from ballys let me no. Maybe i can tell you what masters are very exceptible. THANKS-lauren

Posted by: wristtwister

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 12/29/06 12:02 AM

Dereck,
See if the Canadian Government can use a 5 year old self-defense instructor... I'm sure there's a police department or army unit that's in desperate need of a "qualified instructor"...

Posted by: Gaylen50

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/15/07 04:21 PM

Did you guys know that TMA wasn't always owned by Bally's?
It was taken over in April of 2000, about 3 weeks after I tested for 1st dan.
There are a lot of people who believe that TMA is a McDojang. My belief is that you would have to be with the school as long as me to make that statement. (I mean no disrespect with this)

I have with TMA since August of 1998. I have been with every change of TMA. Side note - it took 10 years for me to become a 3rd dan black belt.

TMA is the only school that I know of that is supported completely by Kukkiwon. Not many schools certificates are available to use all around the world. The belt testings go by Kukkiwon standards for length of time. In Kukkiwon, the minimum number of years to become a black belt is 3 years, and then each black belt testing is 1 year for each of the dan numbers (example 2nd dan is 2years, 3rd dan - 3 years, etc,)

TMA will not allow students to test for black belt until they are fully ready. Even though students can test in a short amount of time, the black belt testings are not easy at all. They test your stamina, they also test your knowledge of certain aspects of TKD (written test).

All of the masters are from Young-In University, except for the ones promoted from Instructor of TMA. By the way, if you think the prices are really high, please don't blame TMA for that. Bally Total Fitness is the one that controls all of the contracts and pricing for everything. I know for sure since I have asked the Grandmaster.

The school I am training at now is the oldest TMA school when bally's 1st took over. Most of the highest belt students are in this school.

If anyone didn't know, even though really young students become black belts, they are not considered Dans until they reach 16 years of age. Until then, they have a poom instead. (it says on the kukkiwon certificate). They still receive the normal black belt so that they are still considered a black belt in TMA. I think that is the best way to do that.

I am also in their HKD program, I am testing for black belt hopefully in June if I am ready. Right now, other than the area masters, I have been with TMA the longest. It is very rare to find students who have been with TMA longer than 7 years because it wasn't popular until at least 2002. From 1998-2002 not very many people knew the school existed.

One of the main reasons why I keep training at TMA is the quality of the instructors, and school spirit. You usually won't find a school (with several schools) that has that much school spirit. All of the schools are good friends with each other. Tournaments are friendly competition.

My 1st 3 years in TKD were at a different school.

I respect other schools as long as they also show respect to TMA. I have seen other schools say bad things about TMA (I won't name which schools). Every school has its own way of teaching, and I respect that.

My belief is that everyone can have their own opinion on Bally's TMA, but they would have to know the organization really well, and have been a member/student for a very long time to make an honest opinion (I mean no disrespect).

Because of my length of time with TMA, I am really well known among all of the schools.

Anyone have any questions about this info?

Posted by: Dereck

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/15/07 05:50 PM

Gaylen, that was very well written; kudos.

Posted by: VDan

Re: Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class - 08/15/07 09:14 PM

Not that it matters much, and I am sure they will come out of it fine, but just as a financial FYI Bally's has filled Chapter 11 and they are reorganizing right now. Their TKD instructors were featured in a recent edition of TKD Times. Their TMA business model looks good though. Most schools where the business model looks good can look like McDojangs and can turn into them quickly. But like anything else it is based on the quality of the instructor based on the location and the student base.

Posted by: ColdRedRainStorm

Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/19/07 07:34 PM

I'm also a student at Bally's Total Fitness' Minneapolis/Saint Paul locations (I go to the location in Saint Paul-Midway) and I can say that your observation on our dojang was VERY wrong. We do NOT charge for tape tags for our belts. Those are for free. We do NOT pass students through just for "time served", as I was rejected for testing many times because I didn't do my form correctly.

We are WTF certified which means we are associated with a well known and well certified organization.

But to play the devil's advocate, yes, there are a few mcdojoish things about our club, there are some blackbelts that look like they can't fight their ways out of a paper bag, but then again, a black belt isn't about the end of your martial arts training, it's about the beginning. It just means that you know all the basic moves on how to become a good fighter.

That's why first Dans can't teach at our school, and the second degree test is as hard as it is (All this is from hearsay as I have never taken the second degree test)

Also, we do have many belt rankings (15 to be exact), I will not defend the fact that our school does use the revenue rainbow, but at the same time, we do offer quality WTF certified instructors. And we have the advantage of having a quality place to work out at after we're done doing our martial arts classes, something most dojo's can't offer. The belt tests are seemingly excessive at 65 dollars for colored belts and over 100 for junior black belts too, but at the same time, our fees are only 30 a month. If you were to pay for a genuine, qualified WTF instructor and a gym at the same time, it would run you upwards of 80-90 bucks a month just to get that quality of a martial arts education complete with a world class gym. But you're also throwing in a race track with a jacuzzi and a mat that's open for over 16 hours a day so you can practice on your own. That would cost you upwards of 150 a month if you did it through another dojo and a club separate, and that's assuming they're just your strip mall club and chain gym. My non-testing months only cost me 30 dollars a month, and there's a local Aikido dojo that I pop into once in a while that charges 20 bucks a month that has NONE of those features. Because of Bally's, I can afford BOTH, and get a GREAT martial arts education. And since I'm running into a new glut of money right now, I'm going to also sign up for a local boxing gym that charges 30 a month. Because of Bally's good prices and good quality I could be a well rounded fighter for just under 90 dollars a month.

So yeah, the revenue rainbow might be a bit much, but it's for a whole lot of quality that you would never get at Kahns' School of Karate, where you get your blackbelt within a year, or the local college TKD club, where you can only use their mats an hour before or after class, and there's no gym afterwards to get in shape.

BTW, I've trained with TKDWookie a few times and he is a VERY formidable fighter. I'm glad we're classmates and not rivals.

Actually, you can come into our classes one of these days and see our true quality. Our classes all over Minneapolis/Saint Paul, Milwaukee, Chicago, DFW, Miami and soon, Orlando has a sparring class every Friday.

Posted by: ColdRedRainStorm

Re: Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/20/07 05:41 AM

Oh, and if you're wondering why a hot tub is good for martial arts, it's good because if you have sore muscles and stretching your muscles wouldn't get rid of the soreness, stepping into a hot tub does wonders for it. It reduces hyperextensions considerably. Imagine if you had a hard practice the night before and you want to go another practice again the next day and you limp into practice. You just lost valuable dojo time because you're sore. Not if your club has a hot tub. The hot tub does wonders for your muscles.

Posted by: Andymcc

Re: Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/20/07 11:16 AM

Quote:

there are some blackbelts that look like they can't fight their ways out of a paper bag, but then again, a black belt isn't about the end of your martial arts training, it's about the beginning. It just means that you know all the basic moves on how to become a good fighter.

I will have to disagree with this statement. A blackbelt in YOUR school may "just mean you know all the basic moves", but that is not what a blackbelt SHOULD just mean.
Yes, 1st dan is but a step on the continuous path of learning. However a BB should represent a certain level of advanced achievement, not just knowing what the techniques are.
This is the inherant problem with schools out there that water down the meaning of a BB. And, while you perhaps do not agree with the concept because you are a part of that school, it is symptomatic of a McDojang.

1st dan BB's SHOULD be revered as someone who has not only "learned the basics" but has achieved a strong level of proficiency with them, as well as certain advanced movements. After all, the general publics perception of a BB is someone who can "kick some ass". So should it not then be the case? Otherwise, we have watered it down to a BB "knows the basics".
Sounds more like a yellow belt to me. JMHO

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/20/07 05:51 PM

Quote:

I agree with your point wholeheartedly, and therefore don't think it quite applies to my point to this ladies description of her school or blackbelts.
In my response, I don't say with any level of specificity what a blackbelt means "to me."

You definitely did state what a BB means to you. Let me demonstrate:

Quote:

level of prificiency

What do you mean by proficiency? And how much should a black belt have? How do you measure proficiency? The level you define does not apply to everyone, different schools will be different.

Quote:

knowledge of some advanced movements

What are advanced movements? How many advanced movements must a black belt know? Some schools require thousands, some schools only require a few dozen. Are movements the only thing which makes a black belt a black belt?

I'm pretty sure that my definition of a BB includes an understanding of philosophy, the culture of the MA, understanding of stances, transitions and techniques, a sense of self control and confidence, the ability to teach and a high standard of physical fitness. My definition of a black belt, from my school, clearly differs from your "advanced movements" and "level of proficiency". Neither are better or worse, they are both simply different.

Quote:

you know the basics

Again, what is a basic technique? Many long-studied martial artists will assert that what they know is simply the basics, applied in a fashion which a beginner would not expect.

To me, a black belt is not about how many techniques you know, but how well you understand and use the techniques that you do know. As such, even if a black belt only knows "basic techniques", as long as they have mastered how to use them effectively to create a solid basis for combat, they are experts in my opinion.

In the end, a black belt is simply a piece of cloth. It's the person, not their belt, which determines their expertise in the martial arts.

P.S. As you might well have guessed, I'm one of those guys who doesn't care at all what the public thinks about MA. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm not spreading misinformation, the public's perception of martial arts is out of my hands. Also, I find the idea that black belts should be seen as going around trying to "kick some ass" quite a puzzling one, especially for someone who so reveres the principle of tradition and respect. I'd rather that black belts are seen as knowledgeable, helpful and friendly people who are concerned about protecting themselves and the people they care for. But heck, maybe I'm too sentimental.

Posted by: flynch

Re: Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/20/07 07:32 PM

Quote:

To me, a black belt is not about how many techniques you know, but how well you understand and use the techniques that you do know. As such, even if a black belt only knows "basic techniques", as long as they have mastered how to use them effectively to create a solid basis for combat, they are experts in my opinion.

In the end, a black belt is simply a piece of cloth. It's the person, not their belt, which determines their expertise in the martial arts.

P.S. As you might well have guessed, I'm one of those guys who doesn't care at all what the public thinks about MA. As far as I'm concerned, as long as I'm not spreading misinformation, the public's perception of martial arts is out of my hands. Also, I find the idea that black belts should be seen as going around trying to "kick some ass" quite a puzzling one, especially for someone who so reveres the principle of tradition and respect. I'd rather that black belts are seen as knowledgeable, helpful and friendly people who are concerned about protecting themselves and the people they care for. But heck, maybe I'm too sentimental.

I agree with your opinion about a BB's mastery of basic techniques and I too question the kick ass comment. I have learn as much or more about not having to kick ass then about kicking ass in martial arts. I have learned how to control an attacker, how to not be injured by an on coming opponet and how to disable them without doing too much damage.

I guess the idea here is we all have a concept of what a black belt means or what a black belt should represent. These ideas and opinions are just that, our own ideas and opinions based on our previous experience with our own martial art. To everybody this is a different thing because it is based on our own personnal experience which are different. It may be closer for people in the same art but even this is not the same. Some arts/schools/instructors focus on techniques, some focus on toughness, some focus on power and some focus on knowledge. There are probably other primary focuses too and schools that emphasis many of these but to varying degrees.

As an example lets take breaking because it is seemingly simple and measurable.

Lets say that a black belt syllabus says that the student has to break four boards. In my mind that means one technique all boards at once to demonstrate power. To somebody else it is four seperate single board breaks with different techniques (maybe some advanced high jumping/spinning techniques) to demostrate skill for another it is four consecutive breaks w/out pausing to set up to demosrtate speed. Which is better? Which is more appropriate? Which shows more skill? I don't know and I don't think there is a correct answer. The only test I can see is when the student started 3-5 years has the student worked hard and increased the ability to defend themselves and have they developed the right character.

And I will agree with ITFunity that it must be left to the individual instructor to determine this. Unfortunately as with all humans even martial arts instructors are prone to mistakes and are always driven by fear, greed and sometimes with luck even a little common sense.

I think at my BB test I had to break 12 boards in total but I can't compare that to other people because that test was for me. Did I have to do power techniques? Did I have to do high jumping/spinning techniques? Did I have to put the boards on the ground and stomp them (i'll never understand that one)? Did I have a balance of the above (w/out the stomping)? Was I allowed multiple tries or was it one chance and thats it? You see even with breaking it just can't be a set standard.

Posted by: Andymcc

Re: Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/21/07 07:47 AM

You are so far off topic it is a joke. If you have nothing better to do than twist the meaning of my post, than perhaps you should go start another post on the topic you truly want to discuss and I will gladly post my thoughts on it.
First of all, I could care less that you "don't care what people think of you" . What do we care here?
Secondly, my post is not about "what a blackbelt is, in ANY certain terms." I'm not going to debate with you what the definition of "proficiency" is, or any such thing, because that is not the intent of my post or the focus of this thread.
If you took the time to read the previous few posts prior to my response, you would UNDERSTAND that the person was describing their school and the blackbelts as if they were nothing more than students who knew the "basics".
Do you see me asking that person to "define the basics" so we can pick apart the definition of a word and further diagnosed what a BB means to you, me and each tkd school on the planet????
If YOU don't understand the english definition of "proficiency" please go look it up in a dictionary. It may be a subjective judgement as to what is proficniency is, OF COURSE!!!. That is not up for debate, and not what I'm trying to put to question.
For the last time, my response is SIMPLY that a BB means more than "knowing the basics" . THAT is obvious to ANYONE I would think.
I'm not looking to define exact what a BB is. OF COURSE it is different across schools, styles, etc. I'm not looking to tell anyone "what it means to me". But if you think the poster's comments about a BB is someone who simply "knows the basics" is accurate, then great, maybe you are from a McDojang as well, what do I know? (by the way, I also don't care what YOU think of ME).
Anyhow, it is ludicrus that someone whould argue that a BB and the word proficiency are not necessarily congruous. Start by going to the dictionary for the meaning of proficiency, then try to have an open enough mind to realize that it is simply a relative term and we all know a BB can't be compared from school to school, etc.
And by the way, if you "question" the kick some ass comment, please go back and read a little slower next time, and try your best to understand the "context". It desribes a "lay-person's" comprehension of a bb since it is simplified and illustrates how a lay-person does not get the picture. But that even the lay-person understands that a bb is indicative of a level of "developed-skill" (is that a better word than proficiency, and no I won't debate HOW developed, b/c that is not the point!) Don't look to implicate more meaning to it than what is there.

All if this is JMVVHO. (standard disclaimer I see here)

Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Newbie Necromancing A Thread!! Woohoo!!! - 10/21/07 10:00 AM

Well, having heard your explanation, I now fully understand the meaning of your post. I still hold to my opinion that you and your federation/school/MA are only one of many and that a black belt holds little meaning outside its own context.

Not to say that you haven't worked hard to earn yours or that other people shouldn't, but I've seen enough McBlackBelts to hold little faith in the institution of belt gradings.

I'm sure we can maturely agree to disagree on this matter. To each their own, I suppose.

Bally's Total Fitness TKD Class