Chang Hon Real Applications Book

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By any chance would the author be a member of this forum?

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I hope they go into great detail in te descriptions and lots of photo's.

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However, I think the difference with this book versus your SD book is the explanation of the application rather than a how to.

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As mentioned in the previous post, the book not only covers applications, but how to train them and how to utilize them in real situations.

No point giving the tools by not letting anyone know how to use them!

Thanks,

Stuart

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StuartA from ITF-ONLINE, right ? Welcome to this forum, I see that they finally shut the board down over there. I apologize, I thought that sjon was the author. Will it be available in stores in the US or is it only available online ? Again, welcome aboard !

VDJ

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Yeah, sure was, hence why I havnt visited recently as well.

So, have I convinced you to go get a copy of the book?



Stuart

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VDJ,

I hope you didn't get the wrong impression that I was critiquing Stuart Anslows book,

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Currently, I've been checking Barnes and Nobles for Mr. Anslows book on the Chun Chi forms but they don't carry it.

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StuartA,

Wow, what better way to get my answers than from the horses mouth. Thanks for taking the time and contributing to the forum and answering all of my questions. Often many students recommend books and yet never say why, I figured I would ask, but I never thought the auhor would answer. I look forward to reading and hopfully purchasing your book.

-Tek

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VDJ,

I hope you didn't get the wrong impression that I was critiquing Stuart Anslows book, I have yet to see it. What I was doing was reminding Sjon about these things incase he pops up on the board and catches my post. I am very much looking forward to sjon's.

Currently, I've been checking Barnes and Nobles for Mr. Anslows book on the Chun Chi forms but they don't carry it. I don't want to order it because then they assume I want to purchase it and I like to look over what I buy.

I mentioned Sjon's name while I was on topic about authors many times over looking those small techniques because many illustrated books do not contain them. I understand some form of the technique must be altered in order for it to be applicabale to self defense, howeve, I hope tat it does not deviate to much, otherwise I would prefer to teach and practice the actual technique itself rather than practicing it in a poomse/hyung form.

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Hi Stuart, and welcome. We have met on Iain's forum. Nice to see you here. I haven't seen the book yet, but the preview looks great.

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Hi Sjon.. is it Simon O over there btw?

So your writting a book too eh! Interesting. Im not too up on the WTF forms but it should prove interesting, how far alog are you with it?

Regards,

Stuart

Ps. I love all the smileys on this site.. the best Ive seen

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Ps. I love all the smileys on this site.. the best Ive seen

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You're welcome.

I like your signature quote. Couldn't have said it better myself. Welcome to the forums.

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You're welcome.

I like your signature quote. Couldn't have said it better myself. Welcome to the forums.

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Hi Stuart,

I am thinking very hard about purchasing your book. Do you have a sample page posted somewhere that we could look at? All I've seen is the cover of the book.

Thank you for taking the time to talk with us on here, and good luck with the book.

Laura

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From my understanding of slow motion, according to Gen Choi, it was 2 fold. 1st was to emphasize the coordination of the eyes, hands, feet & breat (into 1 single coordinated movement) (as per the training secret of Taekwon-Do). 2nd it was to remind that attacks come or may come in different speeds.

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Im with the TAGB.
Even within that though there are differences.lol.

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I did mention the book to my instructor breifly before i had it and he said i should go as deep as i like by all means.I was asking and he showed me things though seemed to favour me coming up with my own saying nothing is definite.He said that instructors pass around ideas ,some he agrees with some he doesnt, so he did seem a bit sceptical to be honest.yet maybe if another instructor mentions the book he will take more notice lol.

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We do everything you mention like sweeps,locks,takedowns,breaking,more heavy contact sparring if both agree etc heading towards realer TKD though no pattern sparring which i reckon i need to do to learn more and that i realy want to do.

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Do you have justt he one school? Your a bit far away though id like to train in this stuff

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Fraid so

Stuart

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Hi StuartA and all
I look forward to purchasing a copy of the book.
Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.
I credit Master Willy Lim with opening my eyes a long time ago.
http://www.classicaldimension.com/

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The turning kick i kind of view as using a bit like the Muay Thai one because they take a step to the side

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If youv iv got my steal toe caps on i use for work or college i can shape as though i was using the ball of the foot though id end up hitting with the toe which wouldnt matter it ,wouldnt hurt me.
From what iv been taught and from the book and other research originaly soldiers were in heavy boots thats what was taken into account.

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Diffences are things like in Hwa-rang (iv not got the spelling in front of me if i wrong lol) the 3 punches in L-stance after the 2 turning kicks,knife hand gaurding block,

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Hwa-Rangs not in the book (its in Vol 2)

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low block section iv seen done where people do them facing right then left then right virtualy all the way facing .some a little...me,im taught to face the front like it was a short close punch.Though if someone does it the other way they wont see how it could be that so their application would have to be differen.Thats an example though theres a few variations of different things.

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The kick..i mean low for self defence.
Im still learning and figuring so..

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Haha confusion...oops.
It was just an example.Though to try to be clearer I mean after the walking stance low block facing forward (north) when you go into L- stance and do a punch and iv seen people punch to the east..then the next one towards west..then the next east..then back to forward (north) with the x fist pressing block.
My point was that with the diferences no wonder applications can be a grey area.
TAGB

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Correct me if I am mistaken but I understood that General Choi never knew the true meaning of the movements in his patterns. They were mainly adapted from a watered down version of karate (the Japanese were never going to teach a Korean national their hidden applications) and rearranged in a manner that was pleasing to the General's eye.

Let me correct myself !
The watering down seemingly came when the Okinawa passed on the art to the Japanese.General Choi restructured what he had learnt from the watered down shotokan karate and passed on these elementary movements in a new package. The applications in ITF TKD continue at this elementary level (block/kick/punch) throughout the syllabus.

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Let me correct myself !
The watering down seemingly came when the Okinawa passed on the art to the Japanese.General Choi restructured what he had learnt from the watered down shotokan karate and passed on these elementary movements in a new package. The applications in ITF TKD continue at this elementary level (block/kick/punch) throughout the syllabus.

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Actually, thats very well put IMO... though the last bit can read.. "until now"

All covered in the book btw.

Regards,

Stuart

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Stuart - how do you see the ITF dealing with these 'new' applications.

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While I have greatest respect for Grand Master Rhee Ki Ha and his fellow ITF masters - they have been repeating the same elementary syllabus over and over for many years now and will have no desire to introduce anything new.

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As a ITF instructor and 'open minded' martial artist how do you deal with General Choi's applications when teaching beginners ?

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Thanks Stuart
Your publication is eagerly awaited.
Sounds like it will give me a route back into training at black belt level . My kids have recently started ITF TKD classes with an open-minded instructor and ,after years of training in other arts, I have wondered about dusting the dobok off and joining them . Will let you know how it goes

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With regards to differences in application and technique, itis worth remembering that ITF continually update their patterns and moves. This can make some moves look very different over time. For example, although all my instructors in UK learned under ITF and graded under people like GM Choi and GM Rhee Ki Ha, what I have been taught and what goes on in an ITF dojang these days sometimes seem very different.

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One example is the grab release in do san. I was taught to twist downwards and to the right (perhaps pulling back a little beforehand). Last night, in an ITF dojang I found it a very different move.

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Therefore, I'd suggest that any small changes to the moves in this book are probably negligible as the original moves themselves have probably changed over time.

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ITF no longer teach the grab...

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Uhhh... I go to an ITF school, and I was taught the "grab" from the moment I started learning Won Hyo.

I did finally break down and buy your book. From my limited experience and understanding of tkd, it appeared solid. Many of the techniques you described are the same locks and take-downs I am currently being taught. We don't get into that much at our school until we reach red belt, so I'm only just getting started in that area. I will admit that some of the applications left me scratching my head a bit. Some of the techniques just seemed a bit too complicated to be effective, but that could just be from my lack of experience.

My instructor has run off with my copy, so I can't quote specific pages, nor can I really comment on the techniques or their application, but I do have some technical suggestions as far as the layout of the book goes, which I hope you may find useful.

1) I still think you should take a few screen shots of a page or two of your book and post them on amazon. Being able to browse the book before you buy it, even with a limited number of pages means people are more likely to buy it. That and I think the layout you've chosen would work well to tease people into wanting to read more.

2) When displaying a sequence of moves, I think it would be useful if those moves were sequenced numerically. Especially as people read left to right, but the images often went right to left. This made it harder to follow the direction of the moves, especially when you rotated the pictures to better view the move.

3) In some of the pictures it became difficult to tell who was attacking and who was defending. I recommend possibly having the attacker and defender in different colored uniforms.

All in all, not bad. One of the things I did notice was your description of the double forearm guarding block and how its changed from Karate to TKD. Interestingly enough, what I am being taught, and what I see at all of the tournaments I've been to, is what you indicate is the Karate version. Shrug.

Since the next book isn't available yet, I am curious to know what you feel the applications are for the first two moves of Chung-Mu.

Thanks
Laura

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Uhhh... I go to an ITF school, and I was taught the "grab" from the moment I started learning Won Hyo.

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I did finally break down and buy your book. From my limited experience and understanding of tkd, it appeared solid. Many of the techniques you described are the same locks and take-downs I am currently being taught. We don't get into that much at our school until we reach red belt, so I'm only just getting started in that area. I will admit that some of the applications left me scratching my head a bit. Some of the techniques just seemed a bit too complicated to be effective, but that could just be from my lack of experience.

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My instructor has run off with my copy,

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so I can't quote specific pages, nor can I really comment on the techniques or their application, but I do have some technical suggestions as far as the layout of the book goes, which I hope you may find useful.

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1) I still think you should take a few screen shots of a page or two of your book and post them on amazon. Being able to browse the book before you buy it, even with a limited number of pages means people are more likely to buy it. That and I think the layout you've chosen would work well to tease people into wanting to read more.

2) When displaying a sequence of moves, I think it would be useful if those moves were sequenced numerically. Especially as people read left to right, but the images often went right to left. This made it harder to follow the direction of the moves, especially when you rotated the pictures to better view the move.

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3) In some of the pictures it became difficult to tell who was attacking and who was defending. I recommend possibly having the attacker and defender in different colored uniforms.

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Just go backwards in the pics LOL. Seriously, thats a point we have already considered but may mean everyone buying new doboks just for the book

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All in all, not bad. One of the things I did notice was your description of the double forearm guarding block and how its changed from Karate to TKD. Interestingly enough, what I am being taught, and what I see at all of the tournaments I've been to, is what you indicate is the Karate version. Shrug.

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Since the next book isn't available yet, I am curious to know what you feel the applications are for the first two moves of Chung-Mu.

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It isnt too far off so Il say this for now, my favorite ap ends in an arm lock and you should be lookng into move#3 as well . More importantly, whats your take on it?

Stuart

Ps. Oh okay, simultanious parry and chamber, strike and control, following into an arm lock (just one of a few)

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Do you mean an ITF school or Ch'ang Hon style school.

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Guess you may hopefully be learning some new apps soon as well then!

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I learn something new every class. As I mentioned before, locks and take downs are only taught to older advanced students, so I've only just begun (within the last 6 months or so) being introduced to these techniques. There are only so many techniques a person can learn at one time before their brain cramps

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Point 2 I get what you mean, but decided to run them in their most viewable form to aid clarity (so limbs arnt covered etc), sometimes that meant going right to left Im afraid.

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Seriously, thats a point we have already considered but may mean everyone buying new doboks just for the book

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More importantly, whats your take on it?

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Our school belongs to several organizations. Not that I really care, but we do have a big ol ITF Flag hanging on the wall in the school. The pattern set we do is the one you are discussing in your book. Chon-Ji, Dan-gun, etc. Does that answer your question?

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I learn something new every class. As I mentioned before, locks and take downs are only taught to older advanced students, so I've only just begun (within the last 6 months or so) being introduced to these techniques. There are only so many techniques a person can learn at one time before their brain cramps

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I agree that the order makes sense for clarity, I was just suggesting, numbering the pictures, like you do when you showed the whole pattern. That way, no matter which way you had them, it would be obvious which picture went first.

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ok, how about a head band?

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Well, my first thought, besides the one in the encylopedia, stemmed from the fact that I wasn't doing any counter balance between the first and second move, when I first learned the pattern, So it looked an awful lot like you were snapping someones neck. Once you throw in the counter balance though, it doesn't make as much sense. Shrug. Ramblings of an over-tired insomnia induced mind.

Laura

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IMP this book should be given to all new ITF black belts along with their degree certificate.

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Another top idea

Thnaks for your nice comments Doc and glad the postal service did its job well.

Thnaks as well to HMFC for the props too.


Regards,

Stuart

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Since the next book isn't available yet, I am curious to know what you feel the applications are for the first two moves of Chung-Mu.

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Stuart,
Congrats on the book.I hope it does well for you and the TKD community.

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For example, we wear ITF doboks, practice the Ch'ang Hon system thats commonly (though incorrectly) termed ITF TKD, but arnt part of any of the ITFs any more! So you can do ITF TKD, practice Chon-ji etc, but not be part of the ITF!

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if as you say that you are not part of any versions of the itf. then why do you wear the crest on your suits?

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is this not a bit misleading to readers of your material?

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if as you say that you are not part of any versions of the itf. then why do you wear the crest on your suits?

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I am no longer part of the ITF or ITf based group, though I was. We wear standard ITF doboks (and have done since I started the Academy) for a number of reasons.

1. I train & teach the Ch'ang Hon system, most commonly refered to as ITF - hence it denotes what we do

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is this not a bit misleading to readers of your material?

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Going back to No.1 - as many see the Ch'ang hon system as ITF, and that is the system I teach and practice.. then no, I dont feel its misleading - as what I do is exactly the same as someone who is a member of any of the ITF Orgs does... technical/move wise!

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are you going to there instructor courses? i'm sure you can pick up stuff from your friends in the itf. but as your club is not joined with them you are in that group they class as "cowboys" as much as i am

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Besides which, even if I did WTF the book is based on the Ch'ang Hon/ITF patterns.. so it makes sense to wear the right uniform!

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again you are going towards misleading ground here. it would make sense to wear the itf style uniform. not the crest also as people looking at the cover and pics would get the impression that you are an offical itf (whichever one) member. which you are not, and that this information is from "one of there own" so to speak!

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Why does this play on your mind anyway?

Stuart

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because i see it as being a mis-representation of what you are doing.

i myself have had to drop the taekwon-do part of my clubs name as it was turning off adults from training with us because they were putting us into that tkd box which they had come across at some point or had a passing knowledge of it being a bit like karate and they were looking for something more self defence driven which is what we are doing through our work with the adk.

also the sub title ""real" applciations to the itf patterns" again make it look like these applications are from an offical itf source.

sorry for being such a snot here stuart. but i do feel that we as instructors have to be honest with both our students in the dojo and the public when we are producing information and instruction.

i do deeply respect you for getting a book like this out to counter ballance so many years of neglect.

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Well I think he would not have minded much at all. In fact, GM JC Kim designed the patch/crest, along with Ambassador Choi back in 1965/6. It should be noted that it has remained in public domain, free of use, since that time, till some recent unkind lawsuits. I for one, see no problem with its use, as that was what it was intended for. Certainly it helps what the Founder tried to do.
JMHO

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Exactly.. thank you!

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Anyway Paulo,

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why would it be a problem that your students would different to students in the itf? They are not, so there is no good sense to wear a patch that says they are.

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Not neccesarily ITF.. I just wanted a standard white dobok in the style I was use to.. the patch was already on it, so it wasnt an option to not have it on. Besides which, when I set up the club I hadnt decided if I was to continue down the ITF road with another group.. so it made sense to cover my bases rather than have to make studnents change doboks later down the road.

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if the founder knew you were wearing his assoications crest without being paying members then I think he would not have approved?

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As ITFunity pointed out - he never actually owned the crest and it was given by the designer for anyone to use!

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there are many avenues to get doboks. putting your own crest over the itf one would be a simple way of keeping things in line?

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There are now, there wernt then. it was a) WTF uniform b) Karate Gi or c) get a funky coloured uniform made up - none appealed to me. In fact if I recall in 1999 only one place outside of an organisation made doboks like I was use to.

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are you going to there instructor courses? i'm sure you can pick up stuff from your friends in the itf. but as your club is not joined with them you are in that group they class as "cowboys" as much as i am

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I dont really care what people class me as, I know what I do, others know what I do, my obligation is to my students.. the only ones who would say things like that are the 'cultish' idiots that are the people that stop all TKD'ers unifying and getting along. And yes, I can go to the instructors courses if I want, I have many ties with people still actively part of the ITF (including many high grades). I also teach to both ITF and non-ITF groups - all without issue about the uniform I wear - only you seem yo have an issue for some reason.

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again you are going towards misleading ground here. it would make sense to wear the itf style uniform. not the crest

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The ITF unifrom includes the crest - the dobok, crest, tree etc are the uniform .

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also as people looking at the cover and pics would get the impression that you are an offical itf (whichever one) member.

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There is no official ITF anymore! Well I guess technically there is, but 2 out of the 3 ITF's arnt part of it - do you say the same to them?

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well they have some claim to be the itf in some form or another. all claiming to be the real or official one. so i guess that gives them the right to wear the official uniform of that federation. also lets remember that this suit/crest is the uniform of the federation and not of the style or set of forms.

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because i see it as being a mis-representation of what you are doing.

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Well if I wanted to be pedantic I could say the same for you!

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I myself have had to drop the taekwon-do part of my clubs name as it was turning off adults

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Isnt that more misleading - acting like you dont teach TKD to get them in the door, when in fact you do!!

Or perhaps more misleading is wearing Gi's which are associated with karate system, when in fact you teach TKD!! I dont care, but obviously you do?

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when i started tkd we all were wearing karate gi's! when tkd and it's various early forms started they all were wearing karate gi's. i dropped the tkd term in my school name because i don't really teach tkd anymore. i've not taught a chang hon form in nearly 3 years now. following the path of my current instructor i'm now teaching forms of heian and naihanchi katas as were taught to him in tkd. they were wearing cross over gi's then so on that matter there is no issue with my group wearing a cross over gi? i could still keep the tkd term because i still have as much to do with that early form now as ever. we have left it now because it does not reflect what we do and so we were not drawing people in as there are many other long established tkd clubs in the area. we are training in cross-style martial arts and looks more like a ju jitsu class than karate or tkd. so no stuart! we are not misleading the public by dropping the tkd out of our name, in fact we were misleading them more before this!

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also the sub title ""real" applciations to the itf patterns" again make it look like these applications are from an offical itf source.

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Maybe to you they do.. as I dont really care about the politics it serves a simple frame of reference to the book searcher/viewer. Though it is indeed incorrect, many know the system as ITF and use that to search rather than Ch'ang Hon - thats a fact of life.

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indeed they do! but this is why the itf has pushed out the term chang hon so much. so as to give people the correct term to call the pattern set that is used in the itf.

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sorry for being such a snot here stuart. but i do feel that we as instructors have to be honest with both our students in the dojo and the public when we are producing information and instruction.

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Well, perhaps people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones! Like I said, its just as easy to twist bits about you if I were so inclined. Theres nothing dishonest about what I do. My lines follow up from ITF roots, yours from AIMAA I believe, I respect my roots, no more, no less.

Stuart

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we have left it now because it does not reflect what we do and so we were not drawing people in as there are many other long established tkd clubs in the area. we are training in cross-style martial arts and looks more like a ju jitsu class than karate or tkd. so no stuart!

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Well if what you now teach is based largely on Rick Clarks AoDenkou Jitsu.. shouldnt your school hold that name too so its more descriptive of what you do?

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we will have it on the new site and promotion posters. i takes time to build up a relationship with an instructor by distance and so we have gotten to that stage now.

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we are not misleading the public by dropping the tkd out of our name, in fact we were misleading them more before this!

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Is this not the logo from your web site then?

Seems to have the name "Taekwon-do" still in it?

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we are in the middle of changing our logo and i can't access my online files to change the pics on there at the moment. it will be changed in time but we have changed the text on much of the site with more to do.

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well you insist on wearing that style of suit, i'm sure that they can be made for you by a company for you now? but thats besides the point now.

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Im sure they can these days, but Im not about to tell all my studnets they need to pay for a new uniform cos Ive decided to change them. Its just how it is, ITF badge or not Im not that bothered about really, but when it comes to my students I dont want to do something like that - so thats how we started and thats how we stay and everybodies happy - cept' you!

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again, i have no problem with what ever gi/dobok you want to wear.

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Funny!! Your post says different!!!

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we are in the middle of changing our logo and i can't access my online files to change the pics on there at the moment.

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Well then perhaps you shouldnt state that you no longer state things that arnt correct! Thats a bit dishonest/misleading isnt it?

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i have outlined that we are changing the public information. as there is a lot to change i do not have the time to do it all at once. but it is being done. in anycase i could still use the tkd term if i wanted and take the chance of causing confusion. but have changed for the reasons mentioned before.

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Like I said, anyone can pick holes in things or split hairs about stuff (as I have done above).. thats easy. The question is why someone would want too!

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my OP was no really meant to be as attacking as it may have seemed and it was really just a question of the use of a crest of a federation that you are not belong to and it's possible repercussions.

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For the record, I have no issues with what you do, what you teach, how you train etc.

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i never said that i had a problem with your work or even your feckin' suit! none of that was in question

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and how silly it is at the same time for guys batting for the same team!

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I thought some might be interested to know there is a book:

Ch’ang Hon Taekwon-do Hae Sul: Real Applications to The ITF Patterns” by Stuart Anslow.

:that has either just come out or is comming out very soon.

I dont know too much about it yet though it seems interesting.
If any one has any more information on it or even has it,please post.

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Hi
The patterns seem to contain techniques that are in shotokan kata? I havent seen the book but would like to discuss the techniques that are in the book if they can be described.
Jude

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taekwon-do patterns are based on karate kata with changes made for various reasons. i teach applications, pressure points and self defence to a few karate clubs and groups. more so than TKD ones. who don't seem to be able to find the time to host a seminar with me or host prof clark.

i also have taught a ju jutsu group and have been invited to teach an aikido club. it's really nice to be able to cross over styles like that.