Training for the leg catch

The way I train for this is, usually when someone catches a kick (not that easy to do considering the risk involved) they will catch it with both hands. If both their hands are on your leg, then they are not defending their face. Throw punches, and hand strikes. This is actually a deceptive tactic I use sometimes in MMA sparring. I will throw many hard kicks, as I usually would, then I will throw one a bit softer, to try and get then to grab my leg, then I will be sure to move in close, and attack with elbow strikes, or if I am farther away punches. Also, if someone catches a really hard kick, sometimes it will hurt the person who caught it more than the kicker, even If they are taken down. I think it is important to have striking and grappling skills, so that even if your kick is caught, and you are taken down, you can still defend yourself, and be in the fight. So my advice is to kick hard, and if your kick is caught, then throw punches until they let go, or you can get your leg loose. If they cathch it with one hand, you still have two so strike away.

I think you will find several different perspectives so here is mine and I'm going to hit this from several different angles so bare with me. Since I have an understanding of what I would do if I caught your kick, I have a better understanding of how I would react if you catch my kick ... so hence I am going to do it from both perspectives.

1. I catch your kick

A fast kicker is hard to catch kicks especially when they are low but the more tired they get the slower the kicks are and the easier they are to catch. For the most part my experience is not so much catching but scooping as when they kick I step in and scoop thus taking them off balance ... but should I take a kick that is high enough up, the best place to catch and trap this leg is on your back "lat". This is muscle and can take the impact more then your ribs. Of course not to be there is the first priority but if I have to take it then this is the best place. AND you don't just stand there and take it, you step in and move with the kick the same way you learn self defense to minimize somebody swinging a bat or an object at you. You lead in to reduce the amount of force and then move with the flow of the moving object and then trap it on your back lat with our arm.

Now this doesn't end here. Whether scooping or trapping a kick your first instinct should be to throw out your other arm to create space to eliminate your opponent from hitting you. You should shrug your shoulders and get your chin down and your temple below your arm so that if they can punch you that you only take it to the top of your head. Plus by extending the arm this limits them getting in close enough to clinch up with you or to really deliver a blow. At the same time start moving this person back to take them off balance and then step to the side and trip them to the ground. From here you can get get away, you can start kicking your downed opponent, you can apply an ankle lock or you can follow him down and try to gain top mount and whale away ... which even being a grappler I would stay away from unless I had several friends who had my back and I was in a crazied sense of mind.

Of course kicks can also be timed for block and punches but they have to be circular kicks to be effective, and you can also scoop from this position or just bowl them over. And if you can get in close with a block and punch then it is also possible to clinch up and try to control the head while delivering knees, elbows, uppercuts, etc. And if you can clinch up then you also have the capablity to take them to the ground. If they want to stand up straight then you can grapevine their legs to trip them or step in and sweep them to the ground. If they want to create a lot of distance then you can pull them forward thus leaving you in a top sprawl to deliver knees or downward elbows, chokes, etc. And if they lean too far forward you also can deliver some nice knees to their chin or pull them into a guillotene ... thank you.


2. You catch my kick

Very bad on me for allowing you to catch my kick. What was I thinking kicking that high in the first place? All kicks should be low and fast and never much above the knee. If you want to try to bend down to catch or scoop my knee I should be fast enough to pull it back or react accordingly to prevent it. If I kick high then I'm in trouble and I'm more then likely going to pay.

If I'm caught of course I am going to try to retain my balance and get in close so that I can lock you up. I will try to bend or lift my knee to move in closer, in fact I will try anything as I am now in panic mode because if my opponent knows what he is doing then I'm going to the ground no matter what. But as explained above, if he knows what he is doing he will have already limited me from getting closer and any punches I am throwing will either hit nothing but his arm or the top of his head and will be ineffective … plus I will be dealing with moving backwards and to the sides and worry about falling on my ass or head … which leads me to my next attempt ... I go to the ground.

Sounds crazy but I would rather control myself going to the ground then to be tripped or swept and with you holding me I can reduce some of my fall. I may have to use some falling techniques but be assured as soon as I feel ground under me I am kicking for your knees and groin and what ever other targets present themselves. I also will be pumping my legs like a bike and moving them in and out circular to release my leg and to fend you off. I will stay in this position and move around on my back to ensure that you do not get close enough to re-grab me or attempt to mount me, with my feet always facing you at all times. Hopefully with me kicking you you'll move back enough so that I can get up quickly defensively and should you come in before I can get up then I go back to my back and start the process over.

I'm sure there are other ideas of what can be done but this is what I have received from my training. They are good basics that my Instructor has provided and was shown again by George St. Pierre a few weekends back when I attended his seminar on MMA. These are basics I can remember and will use if I have to in the future as they seem a no brainer. Of course with other individuals joining in to kick your butt ... defend as best as you can but accept that it will eventually catch up and you will be on the losing end.

I think George put it best, there is a defence for everything ... but some times that defense is before you get into that position. If somebody catches you in a Rear Naked Choke and sinks it in then there is no defense ... the defense was prior to them sinking it in. The same goes for a kick, your defense should be before not when they do it. Sure you can limit it such as I've layed out ... and others will also provide ... but the best defense against getting your leg caught is "not" to get it caught.

Of course again you don't want to be in this position but if you are then you have to deal with it. I had not thought of the link as an attack but it certainly is an option. I was thinking more going to my back ... and yes a heel hook or ankle lock is possible and won't feel good. But hopefully I will take them off guard and even while going down I will be kicking thus hoping they will release the hold. And even if my ankle has to break this doesn't take from the fact I am still going to have to defend myself with whatever means I can.

In attempts to clinch up when the arm is extended by the opponent to create distance, and being moved back quickly and to the sides ... the clinch has not been possible, though I also would certainly try for it because you never know. From the catch, to the extended arm, to the moving, to the takedown, it can be a matter of seconds ... literally, which nullifies the clinch.

I have sent a PM to John hoping he will pop in to give his perspective.

Best option is, of course, don't get your leg caught in the first place. I agree with you however that the takedown will likely be very fast. However, unless there is a knee lock, it is quite difficult to take someone down instantly. If the person who's leg is caught bends the leg quickly, it will extend their time standing. This may be enough to get a clinch. Either way, the likelihood of being taken down is high. It's just I'd rather take them down with me than have them standing above me while I lie down on the ground for them. I think we all know that the best position you can be in when attacking someone is standing up with them on the ground below you. Eliminating this by taking both parties to the ground reduces your opponent's advantage considerably. In fact, if you have groundfighting training and he doesn't, it nullifies his advantage completely the moment the two of you hit the ground.

Further more, one advantage of my clinch method is that it sets you up quite well for a flying armbar if you are trained well enough and have lots of upper-body strength.

I would like it if you would make this thread a sticky thread, this topic appears to be a recurring one.

Guys -

I haven't taken the time to read through all of the posts (I DID read bits and pieces).

Let me just tell you how I would handle the situation. I like Derecks format of both perspectives and will use that myself.


I caught YOUR kick:

If I managed to catch your kick, it was probably because it was a mid-level kick to begin with. Lower kicks tend to be faster and get progressively slower the higher you go (slower in a relative sense of the word mind you).

If I catch a kick, I'm going to use my opposite arm to keep you off of me. Sort of like a football stiff-arm. Then I will do one of three basic things:

• Step backward quickly to drag my opponent off-balance and down (this has the potential to injure/pull the groin muscle so you have to be careful in training)
  
• Take my opposite hand and forearm across the back of the knee, pulling hard right behind the knee joint to drag him off balance
  
• Use my leg opposite of the side I have the kicked trapped on to trip your support leg
  

I may even attempt a Barsagar (a wrestling takedown based off a single leg attack)


If you caught MY kick:

GOOD LORD!!! What the hell was I doing KICKING in the FIRST place?!??!??! I must have forgotten about my cardinal rule against kicking EVER under any circumstances!!

Just kidding. (Not really)

Anyway, you caught my kick. I have to treat it like I’m countering a single leg now. There are two basic things to try first:

1. Get in close to your opponent and grab the elbow of the arm that has your leg trapped. As you grab the elbow, push your leg further through his arm until your leg is more beneath you. You should now be able to put some weight on it and step through. As you do this, try and get his head down if you can.

2. The second way might be easier but depends on timing. As your kick is caught, turn away from your opponent quickly and simply pull your leg downward and out. When you turn away, have the mentality that you’re about to sprint away from your opponent. This has to be done quickly, but I’ve seen it work a lot.


Those are two methods that are basic but work pretty well. Timing is everything as it always is. Isolate that situation and practice it for reps.

The caught kick scenario is one that I’m not often in seeing as how I rarely ever kick. I would use one of the above methods to deal with it if I were in that situation. I would also treat it as a single leg and come in close, getting a whizzer on one arm and wrist control on the other as I try sprawling my weight back and getting his head down UNDER my weight instead of upright with him looking at me.

If the guy is good with it though, you’re probably going down so it’s a good idea to be ready for that and prepare to start working from your guard position once on the mat.


There are some amazing things that people can and will do. I’m more conservative however and take a simple approach. I find that works better over the long haul. Pick a couple of things and get your reps in. Perhaps what I’ve said has already been said and if so, I apologize.


Thanks

-John

I probably should have clarified that once your leg is caught, if caught from far away, you should clinch, by pulling your leg back and trying to get closer when you strike. Also low kicks are extremely hard to catch, so use a lot of them in a street fight. With a few mid kicks, and high kicks if you want.

Thanks for all the great replies, guys. I'm sorry if this topic has been done before, but I couldn't remember a detailed look at this particular issue, and well at least it's stickied now.

Anyway, I'd like to move on to the second part of my original question: how do you train for it? Do you simply do drills where one person catches the others' leg, then brings them down, with the other trying to end up in the best possible situation? Maybe some of you have imaginative approaches to training for this? Maybe, even, some of you *don't* train for this, and are suddenly feeling the urge to start

Easiest way to train it is just allow leg-catches and takedowns in sparring.

To be honest Tim, the training we have received on this is very minimal.

With most things we train, we train light first with no resistance, then with a little resistance and then with more resistance ... but not enough that you are full out or will injury your partner or yourself (too much ). By doing it light first you can get the idea of trying to clinch up and what it feels like, or try other techniques. We do this numerous of times and then switch with our parnter so they can get a feel for it. Then we do it with a little resistance the same way working back and forth and then with enough resistance that if you try to get it that you probably won't but try you still do. Because we train break falling skills separate we take this for granted that we all know this since more then likely you are going to land on your back. For those that don't have good skills then they don't go to this level.

It is hard to practice something like this as soon as somebody has your leg you are at a disadvantage. I'm not saying that it can't be practiced but it is something we do not practice often and cannot remember the last time with the exception of the George St. Pierre seminar a few weekends back.

I'd be interested in reading other's responses as well.

Great Thread Tim it's good to finaly talk about TKD as a martial art and not just in sports context or your basic selfdefense issues.

In my earlier years of training I trained for leg catches and what to do once I have them. It is my experience that I am only able to catch someones kick when they are being lazy or are tired. I would think it is very dfficult to catch a TKDist leg simple because of the extensive use and practice they have with throwing the kicks. A wel trained TKDist should know the dangers of such improper technique and I find hard to beleive that such a situation could happen. I would think it happens more in other karate type styles.

When watching UFC matches I rarely see kicks being caught, that said I rarely see kicks being avoided also. Usually because these guys are muscle bound they just block the kick with knees and forwarms, while more point karate or olympic stylist avoid and evade the kicks. I guess it depends how conditioned they are.

I myself am not conditioned enough to block or deflect kicks so simple, I block only when I have to, I prefer not to be in the way of an attack. That is how I train. I have practiced catching kicks with people of all ages and sizes, kids are extremely to catch, adults a little harder and usually results in more pain. I've mainly practice catching only two types of kicks The front thrust kick, which is well within avoidance range simple because if you read the opponent you can see it comming by the knee rising towards their chest. This kick can be caught simply with an unerhand scoop. I've been taught only three ways to respond once I catch the leg. Either pull to off balance the kicker. I do this by either steping back or side stepping while still maining a hold of the leg. This then would lead to a leg lock or ankle lock. And I only nkow a few variations of those.

My second approach once I catch the leg is step in and sweep the suporting leg. The attacker falls on their and I procede with either a strike or a leg lock. A strike here is necessary because I have step into the attacker, I am no within range to strike with my hands. Ground and pound sort of thing.

My third reaction is to slightly jerk the leg foraward then push the leg back into the opponent throwing them back wards on their back. I suppose a grapple would then smother the fallen opponent, however, because I hae no training in ground attacks, I would simple run.

The same techniques can be practice with a thrusting roundhouse kick. When the opponent commits to the kick, however, depending on the size of your oppoenents you may want to re-think this approach. As state before I've worked with some 250+ pound guys and although these men do not kick with speed they kick with a lot of power. Often my bicep would be bruised just by catching the kick, being able to hold on to it was a different story. My current teacher was an army recruiter he often wore his combat boots I'd ask him about catching kicks. He'd tell that it's not the best of ideas that it was better to avoid the kick altogether, he assured me that if I were t try and catch his kick that more than likely I would break my arm. This was his apporach to leg grabbing and why he stressed avoidance and evasion. This prinicple helped in olympic style sparring also.

I guess someone will read "thrust roundhouse kick" and wonder what the heck that means, I suppose it can be refered to as a push roundhouse kick. Basiclly it's a kick your commiting your entire weight into.

Well something I've come up with is too literally jump on them. I highly doubt this is legal in the UFC, and no I'm not talking about some fancy Ong-Bak thing(awesome how he got on his shoulders and clobbered him with elbows).

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3200145913123453079&q=aikido

^-- Thats an aikido video, at around 1:18 he does a similiar lunge to the guy who's charging. This can be done if your leg is caught, I've tried it on people a bit bigger than me and it works. IMO, it works better the higher your jump, almost like trying to land on them, they should let go or get pushed backwards and downward to the ground. I've tried this on people a bit bigger than me, but I haven't tried it on anyone 6'0" yet...

Sorry if that explanation is vague.

With the traditional fighting stance (open hands, rear arm at stomach, lead arm outstretched) it's extremely easy to catch most mid level kicks. Just move forward and to the side and their leg will fall right into your arms. Side kicks are the most difficult to catch, IMO.

Tim, it is tought at our dojo, a matter of fact they are belt requirements to know the take downs from a front, round, side and back kick. I don't feel like typing a book on all these techniques but they are extremely effective. A matter of fact there are three basic take downs we teach just from the round kick. Most of the take downs end up on the ground with some type of ankle or leg lock as well....I love it, fun stuff!!!

this is only an idea if somebody can try it or something please tell me if it works or tell me why it wouldnt or doesnt work. if somebody catches your kick bend your knee to get close enough to the person that the are in arm range or closer. the try to grab a hold of their kidney areas (under the rib and above the hip on side of the body) and squeeze hard. this causes immense amounts of pain if squeezed hard enough and most likely they will let go. again this is only an idea if somebody can try it or tell me if it would work or not please do.

As far as a kick grab counter that is both indigenous to TKD and functional/ reliable? Good luck.

A waste of time trying to describe the tactic to non grapplers, but any decent wrestling coach can show you counters to a single leg takedown which is very similar to the kick catch that will be easlily integrated into your standup game. They involve the Whizzer and a judicious amount of sprawling.

When i first encounted this question myself i asked my instructor. He told me from a front kick lean forwards and stomp your foot down while striking the face and this does work.
I have since then done some training with other people and if someone holds your leg from the side they can quite easily control your body by putting pressure on a joint of choise.
If you cannot instantly get close to them to put all your weight on the leg they're holding and strike your best bet it to go to ground.
I will not waste your time as i have seen many other explainations of what to do at this point and all i will say is practice and see what you can do.
All untrained people will either let go, try to put the boot in, or jump on you though, which is why i train for grappling as well.

I actually got caught in a leg catch yesterday. I was doing some light sparring with a Southern kung fu stylist..I had the upper hand for most of the brief session because he wasn't used to reading kicks; a guy watching us said I got a couple good headshots with some turning kicks (well, at least they would have been good, we weren't wearing any gear so I was being real careful not to actually hit, or at least hit hard).

Eventually though, I got sloppy and he caught my leg after staying on the defensive the whole time. However, in doing so, he dropped his defense and he had caught my leg, not my foot, so I was close in and he exposed his back. I immediately grabbed his neck from behind while he took my leg..we stopped as he started applying pressure to my trapped leg and I started choking him for obvious safety hazards. The next thing for him to do would have been to fall backwards and try to smash me into the concrete, which admittedly would have hurt..but if he didn't take me out then I think I would have had him because I would have been in a BJJ backmount on him.

So, in essence I guess, I couldn't figure out anything to do that was really indigenous to TKD. Though, the way he caught my leg, I could have tried striking him at the distance we were at, esp. since he was holding my leg with both hands, but I was worried he would throw me so I went for the backchoke. Though I might not have dared do that if he was a dedicated grappler, but I had the feeling that he wasn't really a much better grappler than me so I decided to risk it.

hmmm I have never really seen the leg catch in action...however strange this might sound though, I have done it lol. Maybe I'm weird...but if you're going to catch a roundhouse you sort of move with it, redirect the energy flow, and place your foot beside their other one...and they'll go crashing down..and at that moment..you can take it to the ground...woohoo! I need to see that in action in UFC though lol.

one way to stop a roundhouse is to dodge the kick but grab their foot and push it in the way they are going. that way they would over rotate and be open.
another jeet kune do move i learned is to grab the leg and kick the back of the thigh then the groin. definately not a tkd move, but i really think its super effective

One thing I can say if your leg is caught chances are you will hit the floor. Stay calm. I have found that I can still fight back if I remain agressive and let my miond go. Let me explain. I have had my leg caught and I used my opponent to be my base in which to thow a back kick to the gut. I landed on the floor, if this had been a real fight my opponent would have benn hurt. I am not saying that you should only do this when caught, but allow yourself the freedom to fight back.

You got to be careful not to kick too much. They are a good weapon to have, and TKD makes use of them well. However, its a lot of energy. After so many times your movement gets slower and you get caught. Thats why they always tell you to quick fast and never past the belt. It isnt because head kicks dont work but because the wear and tear on your energy. Also, if the opponent has good footwork then it is easy to catch. Nearly every kick can be caught with a quick enough step backwards. By judging the level of the knee, you already have a good idea of where its going. Its just a matter of stepping back and getting your gaurd to the proper position.

why not just punch them in the face?

I agree with VDJ on this one. Always kick low in a real fight...

hey there,

i believe that once someone who knows what they are doing catches your kick, then your pretty much done for.
because in my opinion off balance = major disadvantage.

the best way i make it hard for people not to catch my kicks
is not to telegraph and use " FEINTS ", with hands, the other leg. confuse them etc.

It depends if you are referring to self-defense or competition. In a real encounter, you can elbow all you want, which is good. In competition, you can probably try some of the risky stuff without fear.

Depends on the situation.

I tend to favour the scoop myself, getting in close under the knee / thigh before the kick can reach its true power. works well in the dojo but very rarely have I seen anyone throw a kick in the pub on a Friday night, unless they watched a Van Damme movie before drinking too much.

And if someone catches my kick, I like jumping straight up at them and wrapping my opposite arm around their neck for the choke. Again, I speak purely from dojo experience.

I train in Ju Jitsu, so the close work is excellent. But I shudder when I watch UFC and see the low kicks being blocked with shins and knees. I don't think I could ever reach that stage of conditioning!

sorry, i meant in tournaments.

leg catches according to my school arent part of tkd apparently.

Any art that includes kicking should have some form of understanding catching a kick and defending from it. If it doesn't then it is failing and has too many holes. It would be like learning Judo and being taught throws but not taught how to defend from being thrown, nor how to fall after being thrown.

ya know I was thinking about this in class one day, school not martial arts class, but anyway I thought of a pretty good way to solve this problem. When someone catches your kick you react very quickly by dropping to the softly on your buttox and kick their shin like a mule, ooh, if someone can stand their holding your leg after getting kicked right there they gotta be nuts

I train in both TKD and Judo and I would recommend several techniques.
1. If your kick is caught you must be facing forwards. If it is a turning or side kick you need to twist so that you are facing your opponent.
2. You can then (if you are not already floored) try to free yourself. As a grappler I would recommend bending your knee to get as close as possible. This will prevent a leg lock and make it harder for you to be thrown. Also it will threaten the grappler and allow you to land strikes to his face. Finally, it puts much more weight on the grappler, making it harder for him to hold. Watch out for leg sweeps tho!
Alternatively ( this is very risky) go for a very commited front snap kick to the head. I personally wouldnt recommend this but I have seen it done. You need to be quite far away and get plenty of height.
If you are grounded , pull your legs in fast to avoid a leg lock and sit up as soon as possible.

in practical situations my motto is kick low and often - the head will come to the kicks.

haha oh the leg catch.

my opinion
honestly in a fight no one's gonna think OMG THIS GUY IS GONNA KICK ME. so u gotta use that to your advantage. work smarter not harder. so they arnt gonna expect a kick. and a kick is powerful.
though i am not suggesting you NOT learn how to avoid/ defend it i'm saying people freak ou too much about it and it's over exaggerated.

i guess to sum up the idea and add my 2 cents. yes it is worht learning if the chance happens to come. but i think that you should take measures to avoid it and see what works.

"my opinion
honestly in a fight no one's gonna think OMG THIS GUY IS GONNA KICK ME"

Wanna bet!

VDJ

Funny thing,

I was watching the UFC fights on Spike TV last night, in both the Jardine fight and the Bispane fight there was about 7 to 8 leg catches. Some were on low kicks, the majority were body kicks.

VDJ

LeoE49, Derek, and JKogas...great information guys!

Good thread.

~C

lol true too much ufc... HONESTLY UFC these guys are TRAINED they are professional they are sick at what they do. and u cant compare a brawl with UFC> these gusy are trained they know what they are doing. the avg. bozo that you might get into a brawl with wont belike them i'll put my life on it. and if they do know waht they are doing i doubt they would fight for no stupid reason. and neither should you.

ok sorry for the rant bu thad to ge tit out

ok back on topic.

umm.. mm personally i train NOT to get into this. i personally find it all about playin with their head. try to get them wehre they arnt gonna think. so kick em low like 3 or 4 times then kcik em in the head if it's reallyt obvious they suck or jsut settle with a nice kcik to the chest thats jsut me tho. i do some wrsteling ont he side so i'm prety exp eitehr way but i'm more kick oriented.

mm never the less it is a concern i will agree. i think for more self-defence its not something that should keep u up at night to much
and it's really a sticky situation.

Wow hushsound, wow!

If you are trained to avoid this I couldn't agree more. However kick them 3 or 4 times low and then kick them in the head ... way off!

Every fight is different and you need to deal with each separately. This will come down to surroundings, how you are feeling, your opponent and so many other factors. You come up against a grappler or a wrestler, that kicking won't mean $hit. And I would never tell anybody to kick somebody in the head in a real life encounter as too high of a risk. As for the chest, that is just an opportunity to have that leg taken and you winding up on your a$$. Not saying either can't work but too high of a risk.

Agreed Dereck. And I can't beleive he said this either:

"the avg. bozo that you might get into a brawl with wont belike them i'll put my life on it."

I would NEVER bet my life on anything, period! And then to make comments like kicking in the head??? Yeah, only if they're bent over and their head is down low enough to kick. The more he rants, the more his inexperience shines thru!

VDJ

mm welli 'm not saying i know would or woudlint becase i'vebut i'm just saying. i'm not saying YES that is the smart thing to do but simply pointing out you dont have to be completely paranoid dereck. and i suppose yes you would have to deal with each fight seperatly and take into account things.

VDJ u are jsut a [censored]. making an inssult to me isnt helping anything just making u look like an as$ hole, d bag.

the point i guess i was trying to make in a terrible analogy is that you cant say that UFC is like real life. VDJ. u take away so much. like footing, strikes to the spinal . those guys are insane. i would not ever want to fight with one of them.

still i think to learn how to avoid it is the best defence, long story short

"VDJ u are jsut a [censored]. making an inssult to me isnt helping anything just making u look like an as$ hole, d bag."

Whose really being insulting here? Any SD instructor worth their salt will tell you to never kick high or turn your back on an opponent and yes of course common sense is that you should try to defuse the situation first, but making such statements as you have shows inexperience or ignorance and calling me the names that you have above also shows your immaturity.Yes, UFC is a sport and it has rules (as it should) and their fighters are professional, but its as close to a real fight as you're going to get. However, my point about your comments is assuming that some regular Joe off the street isn't as well trained is a VERY dangerous assumption, and again, any decent SD instructor would tell you to assume ANY opponent is trained and dangerous. And alittle more advice, making personal attacks as you did with me can get you banned from this board, just some food for thought before you call someone else (like a moderator) a "d bag or as$hole".

VDJ

agreed MMA or UFC w.e u prefer is about as close as you get to a real fight. and yea you should assume they are dangerous. but i would never say to the point of the MMA fighters. i just feel likey they are on a whole diffrent level.

and as to the insult. i'm sorry i am a litlte more open and less cloak and dagger like you. your words may not sound nasty but they are just uncivilized as mine. so lets call it even.

mm. i just think that to avoid the leg grab is prevention. but it's never 100%. and i really dont see too many defenses against the leg grab. other thent o draw in real quick and grab his head. but that seems risky. too many places where it could fall apart

How are my words uncivilized? Because I think that you're inexperienced based on your comments? I am not cloak and dagger, I say it how I see it, sometimes harsh but never insulting or disrespectful. I think most on this board will attest to that.

VDJ

so what are your thoughts.

I think if you can throw 3 low kicks and set them up for a head kick which is now 4 kicks. Then your really not fighting. Your just sparring.

Neither a self defense situation or a fight should take that long if your really trying to end things.

Especially if your in bar or night club type of scenario. Now if your some kind of middle. jr high, or high school fight, where u and the other guy are circling around in the parking lot throwing pitter patty shots at each other with no contact (all bark no bite). That's not fighting that's sparring.

I just read post from 2 years ago. I still agree with what I wrote, and noticed that my sweeping and take down option was very similar to jkogas (pats himself on the back).

The only thing I would add now is if I were to catch the leg, bull dose them down using momentum and stiff arm, I would then pass their guard, or stack them and ground and pound the $hiznik out of them.

"The only thing I would add now is if I were to catch the leg, bull dose them down using momentum and stiff arm, I would then pass their guard, or stack them and ground and pound the $hiznik out of them."

Why not just sweep the supporting leg? Some people have great balance on one leg and are very effective, I give you B.J. Penn for an example.

VDJ