The truth about TKD

Posted by: MrBerzerker

The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 02:08 PM

This was inspired by an episode of the boondocks where Martin Luther King Jr. comes back to life and tells some people off. (You'd have to watch the episode to understand what I'm talking about).

This is not a bashing of TKD. It is just the cold hard truth about the art, how it's been dumbed down, and how it's been commercialized over the years.

So here we go...

Forms: The purpose of a form is to prove to the judges that you have learned and can properly perform the moves of your current belt level. This is why white belt forms consist of low blocks, inside out blocks, front stances, and punches. It is also why brown and blackbelt forms consist of just about everything under the sun. It is only nessesary to learn one form per belt level. I know that you want your students to be recognized by both the WTF, and ITF, but learning two forms at once cuts out your drill time. And seriously, why the hell should an orginization turn their backs to a student just because they don't know "their" forms? It's silly.

One Steps: Knowing 12443525463 ways to counter an overextended punch is not very useful in a real life encounter. These things aren't even traditional TKD. They were invented a decade or two ago, by god knows who. Time would be better spent on sparring drills, and bag drills.

Sparring: TKD practitioners already have a bad rep for not knowing how to punch/block a punch. Not allowing punches to the head only reenforces this stereotype. It also makes for bad self defense. If you want to do sport sparring that's fine, but give the other people in class a chance to do continuous contact sparring with punches to the head. Some people are there to learn how to defend themselves. Not win a tournament, and walk around calling themselves "Cobra", or "McHitsalot".

Non-Contact Sparring: For the love of god, there's nothing sadder than watching two BB's with $80.00 worth of protective gear on not hit each other!! One guy is thinking,"I think that one would have hit had I followed through". The other guy is thinking, "I think I blocked that one". You can't really know if you've been hit unlesss you've been hit. When you don't know when you've been hit, then you don't know when you're leaving bad openings for your opponent to take advantage of. Non-contact sparring completly defeats the purpose of sparring. Why are certian schools so afraid that someone is going to get seriously injured? Boxers actually aim to hurt each other when they spar and yet you hardly hear of a boxer going to the hostpital in an ambulance.

Board Breaking: If your schools doesn't do board breaking or uses plastic boards, then YOU ARE NOT A MARTIAL ARTIST!!! The black belt test break should not be palm hand through one board. If you have never broken a board then you will never be able to hurt anybody with your kicks. People are a lot tougher than those white pine boards. Also people need to not be so afraid of going past one board. Breaking multiple boards has little to do with strength. As long as you plant your heel right smack dab in the middle of the first board the other two will break easily.

Belt Ranking: Belt = time spent doing TKD. It does not always equal skill in TKD. Skill and time corelate so by the time you get to be a BB you are usually pretty skilled. Sadly I have seen more than a few people in my lifetime that did not deserve their rank.

For the newbies: Congrats on starting TKD. If you came to learn a fun sport, then good for you. If you came to learn how to defend yourself then take a look around. Are there mirrors in the Dojang? Is there a heavy bag or two? Does your school do full contact sparring? Do you break real boards in your school? If you answered no to two or more of these questions then RUN AWAY AS FAST AS YOU CAN!!! And join up with the local boxing gym. No matter how well your instructors can kick, it's all for show unless they train for real self defense. The majority of TKD schools teach it as an art first, a fun time second, and self defense last.

Kicking: Kicking can be of great use to you in a real fight. BUT ONLY IF YOU HAVE GOOD PUNCHING SKILLS AS WELL!! You cannot go into a fight doing nothing but kicks and expect to win. Kicks are there for when your opponent leaves an opening that your hands cannot get to as quickly as your feet can (front snap kick to the cheat, or sidekick to the ribs when they are too far away to punch for example).
Posted by: MattJ

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 02:41 PM

MrB -

I appreciate the strength of your opinions. This does not mean that I agree with all of them. Board breaking in particular has NOT A THING to do with martial arts, IMHO.
Posted by: oldman

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 02:45 PM

The only thing MattJ breaks is noses.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 02:47 PM

The other thing I would add is that one shouldn't overlay one's own description and requirements of a martial art on someone else's practice.
Posted by: oldman

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 02:59 PM

B,
But if we don't do that how are we supposed to feel "better" than other people?
Posted by: cxt

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 02:59 PM

Butterfly

Excellent point!

Nothing more annoying than a person that takes the limits of their OWN PERSONAL EXPERIENCE and mistakes it for THE LIMITS period.

Guy has a point/points--no question.

But to take that point and apply it to an entire planet of people is kinda reaching.
Posted by: cxt

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 03:01 PM

Oldman



"But if we don't do that how are we supposed to feel better than other people?"

Now thats funny!
Posted by: oldman

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 03:02 PM

Quote:

Guy has a point/points--no question.




Yes, but I think a different hairstyle might make them less noticeable.
Posted by: GuitarNinja

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 03:25 PM

I agree and disagree with this, I agree face punches should be allowed, I agree forms should be better regulated but used more often as a self defense mechanism. I dont break boards, but I sure as hell know I can break someones face, if just breaking one pine board isnt enough for you... then why contradict yourself and say breaking more than one is just as easy as long as you break the first board... then it would make sense to practice only breaking one board, save money on breaking 4 at once or something : ) lol

Not everyone wants to be hit, not everyone is there to fight, some people want art, some people want deadly techniques, whatever, who cares. I want a hot dog for dinner and my fiance wants chicken.
Posted by: theoldone

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 04:47 PM

You know, we (people) talk a lot about things on internet forums. (OK, that's what they're for, duh) But it seems to me there are two primary ways we go about it:

1. We defend our view of things because we see things only from our point view.

2. We really open up to the possibility that other views hold valuable insights that help enhance our understanding. Thus we expand our minds.

We talk about how TMAs are dated, we talk about how MMAs are too function-oriented, we talk about how TKD is useless with punches, we talk about how grappling is useless in a street situation, we talk about how strikers are helpless against grapplers.

Fact is, we can talk about anything under the sun and we can talk about them until the cows come home or the gods of war arise out of the depths of the earth to destroy all MAs, but it seems to me that many of us are missing the point in all this talk.

In the final analysis, after all the talk is done, we are faced with one final question: what are we going to do about it? Will you use all this talk to learn? To expand your mind? To absorb what is useful?

Or will you content yourself with using it to keep on saying how good your art is and how all other arts stink?

In the words of Bern Wheeler (an advertising agency owner who wrote the book "The One And Only Law Of Winning"):

Only constant self-confrontation of responsibility reaps results

He was writing about personal individual success, but if you'd use that principle in your MA training, you'd reap results and knowledge far beyond what you presently possess.

So, OK, some people are saying TMAs s*ck. Some are saying MMAs s*ck, etc., etc. But after reading and listening and researching or whatever, what is your responsibility to yourself amidst all these generalizations, beliefs, prejudices, etc, as a individual martial artist, as your own individual person?

Do what your intelligence/wisdom/heart tells you is your responsibility as an individual martial artist and your own individual person, and you will begin to define your own individual path to the martial arts.

You will then not be so susceptible to the fickle winds of hype, misinformation, pride, prejudice, etc., that run rampant in the MA world. You'll also not be so easily taken up by the personality or "authority" of a grandmaster, guru or mahaguru or whatever.

You'll be your own person. You will be your own thinker. You will do your own thinking. And that would be a goal that is worth much more than being able to scale 20ft walls with nothing but your fingernails, would it not?

Finally, "The Thinker's Way" (Author: John Chaffee), would be as good as any to follow as a martial artist:

- Think Critically (not to be confused with being critical)
- Live Creatively
- Choose Freely
Posted by: MrBerzerker

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 06:17 PM

Guitarninja, I didn't say that breaking one board was as easy as breaking two or three. I said that just so long as you hit the board dead center the other two will follow. I forgot to clarify by saying that you can hit one board off center and it will still break, but multiple boards with the same amount of force will only break if you hit it dead center. And yes, anybody can hurt someone by punching them in the face. I was takling about kicks. If you don't learn how to board break, then your kicks to a person will not hurt them because they will be off-center/not thrown right (your kick won't be focused). That's what I was trying to asy about board breaking.

Oldman I'm not posting this just to make myself feel better than others. Trust me, I'd much rather be surrounded by Martial Artists that I can look up to. I'm fine with people going off and doing TKD for the sake of art. Just so long as they do not impose on my own progress as a Martial Artist. And just so long as they do not walk around claiming to be able to defend themselves (or claiming to teach self defense) when they do not/cannot. Forgive me this was just my rant about how TKD has been watered down into nothingness. TKD is quickly becoming what DragonballZ is to Anime, what Yu-Gi-Oh is to Card Games, and what Nintendo is to Video Games.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 08:06 PM

Quote by MrB -

Quote:

And just so long as they do not walk around claiming to be able to defend themselves (or claiming to teach self defense) when they do not/cannot.




Now I actually agree with you there. To say that at a (sport-oriented) TKD school that a student will learn self confidence, kicking, etc in the art of TKD is fine. To say that narrow focus sparring equals self defense is overstating it IMHO.

The problem is, when folks have no exposure to other ways of doing MA, how do they know what they are getting themselves into? Or conversly, how do the long time practitioners (who have never done any other styles) know what they are missing?

A difficult situation indeed.
Posted by: AkhilleusWeeps

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 08:33 PM

Meh...


At first I was a bit angry by this post, but I realized that with all the ATA crap, all the mcdojo'ness invovled in TKD, and how commercial it is to some extent I agree alot of TKD can be brushed as [censored].

Then again, i'd like for him to come to my dojang, or any other similar dojang, where the training is live and minimal padding is worn and see what it is when you train to actually beat the [censored] out of your asailent instead of developing "chi" and all the rest of that [censored].

meh....
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 08:53 PM

I appreciate all the spirited enthusiasm about TKD but you can illustrate your point with out theneedfor colorful language. As a long time TKD stylist myself, I agree that there are soft spots in the discipline from watering down but there are also a lot of good schools that teach effective techniques. Try not to display your opinion as fact. Understand the difference between the two and be ready for a challenge if you get the two confused.

So with that being said, please continue and lets try to be civil, shall we.
Scottie
Posted by: BrianS

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 09:41 PM

MrBrezerker gave us his opinion that's all. I don't necessarily agree with it all either.

If they don't teach real self defense,they shouldn't claim to,but who's idea of real self defense are we talking about?

Look at some of the TKD posters in this forum. Some are obviously from a watered down style and some are not like sjon,VDJ,Dereck and several others.
It takes time and experience to know what you have and what you don't,but you have to start somewhere.

BTW,I like to break boards and cement blocks. I think it does have something to do with martial arts.
Posted by: AkhilleusWeeps

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 10:11 PM

Quote:

Look at some of the TKD posters in this forum. Some are obviously from a watered down style and some are not




I wonder how many eyebrowse that raised =] Certainly more than my coloreful langauge? Hehe.

Okay I apologize for being a bit vulgar but when all you hear is "wah wah wah tkd is crap" and actually have to deal with people who make this opinion fact rather than some nutriders opinion it's enough to drive this MA'ist mad.

Guess I'm wah wah'ing my self, arn't I?

Meh...
Posted by: MrBerzerker

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/27/06 11:10 PM

Quote:

Meh...
Then again, i'd like for him to come to my dojang, or any other similar dojang, where the training is live and minimal padding is worn and see what it is when you train to actually beat the [censored] out of your asailent instead of developing "chi" and all the rest of that [censored].

meh....




And I'd love to attend a dojang like that. Sadly they are extremely rare these days.
Posted by: oldman

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 12:29 AM

Perhaps you could tell us about your school and not the majority of schools.

That might be one way to begin to add veracity to your comments of what is true.
Posted by: sjon

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 03:17 AM

Thanks for the nod, Brian. However, I must point out, at the school where I train the norm certainly is "watered down" TKD, in the sense that patterns are for passing gradings, the main emphasis is sport sparring, etc. (hard, full contact sport sparring, but sport sparring nevertheless).
Independently from this, I carry out my own parallel training in the kind of SD stuff we've been talking about over the last few months. I do this at the same gym where the regular classes take place, but in an unofficial or extra-curricular context, with a scant few people who are interested and open-minded enough. In the regular classes I teach, I slip in a few of the basics of my own way of interpreting TKD, but I can't say outright "this is the way it is, and the other way is not effective SD", because the school is not mine, and I do not feel it would be appropriate for me to undermine the owner's approach.

I actually agree with everything Berzerker says except the board breaking. I have never broken a board in my life (I have never tried, since it is not a requirement in Spanish TKD). However - and please correct me if I'm wrong - if I can make the heavy bag double up and dance on its chain, and if I can produce an equivalent effect on my training partners, then I would say that my strikes are quite effective.
Posted by: MrBerzerker

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 04:31 AM

Sjon I completley forgot about heavy bag training. That works just as well as boards for getting your kicks right. I prefer boards because multiples take better aim to break.

Oldman what do you mean add truthfulness to my comments about what is true? How can you add truthfulness to what is true? Are you just making up words here, without checking the dictionary?
Posted by: Supremor

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 06:40 AM

I think MrBezerker hasd made some good points, however I do not agree with all of them.

Board breaking is a part of grading at my school. We break with with mostly kicks, but also hand techniques, although no more than 2 boards are ever used for hands. However, I have met many effective martial artists who could not board break.

There is so much mental stuff involved in breaking. I have known many guys who in class could not break a board, no matter how many times they tried. However when they grade, they break them with ease. Why- adrenaline; most people will not really try and break something until they have a shot of hormones. Now there are guys who find it very easy to summon up this testosterone at will, but for others it only comes about only when they feel under pressure. now that's fine if you're doing MA for self defence which is definitely an under pressure time. So breaking is not necessariloy a test of power.

I also have to say I disagree with your view on one-step. I think most people by now know that I'm a fan of one-step. When we spar, we use semi contact, so you can hit the other person but with control. However in all MA systems, sparring is confined to certain targets- no groins eyes, sometimes no sweeps or throws or joint locks etc. In one-step, anything goes, anything is legal. This is the only time when you can practice groin kicking, knee breaking etc. One-step is not a chance to show fancy techniques, it is a chance to show effective self-defence techniques against common attacks- punches, grabs and simple kicks.

So that is my "definitive" view of TKD, although it may not be 100% true
Posted by: sjon

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 07:16 AM

Supremor,

I don't think Berzerker was dismissing one-step practice per se. As I understood it, his comment was aimed at the tendency towards totally unrealistic one-steps in which the attacker waits at long range in a long front stance with low block until the defender gives a signal for him to attack with a lunge punch.
We talked about this in a "step sparring" thread, and what I and others said was that one-step is essential, and can be made much more productive by varying attacks, using closer range, introducing unpredictability, simulating aggression to provoke an adrenaline response, etc. You still have to pull the groin strikes etc, but it's far more realistic.
Posted by: Supremor

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 07:40 AM

OK, I agree completely then
Posted by: oldman

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 08:50 AM

I'm asking about your experience with what is true rather then your perception of what is true. When you use phrase like "The majority" it implies that you have experienced the way most schools train. Either that or you are making gross overgeneralizations based on presuppositions that are not based in experience but in conjecture. I'm not talking about adding truthfulness to truth I'm talking about adding clarity and accuracy to your communication.
Posted by: RazorFoot

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 11:11 AM

Quote:

Thanks for the nod, Brian. However, I must point out, at the school where I train the norm certainly is "watered down" TKD, in the sense that patterns are for passing gradings, the main emphasis is sport sparring, etc. (hard, full contact sport sparring, but sport sparring nevertheless).




Sounds like you and I train at the same school or at least two that are very similar. Our training is based on the same concepts but we do add self defence techniques in with our regimen because although my Sah Bum Nim is an Olympic coach, he still believes in the true self defence nature of TKD and of MA's in general. He will emphasize that sports type sparring is only one aspect of TKD and that there should be a balance.

Quote:

Independently from this, I carry out my own parallel training in the kind of SD stuff we've been talking about over the last few months.




IMO, this kind of training is necessary and a benefit no matter what style you train in. I have always tried to maintain a balance between Dojang training and outside sessions with other MA'swho practice different styles and have different views on what is effective and what is not. Testing techniques like this help me to make my TKD more effective.

Is my school ideal, far from it but I do enjoy my training and I feel we have been able to maintain the right balance between sport and self defence to help me achieve all the goals I have set for myself as benefits of my training.

Scottie
Posted by: TimBlack

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 12:58 PM

When TKD hit the scene, of course, it was considered extremely effective and tough - TKD practitioners tended to hit _very_ hard, quickly, and were in largely good shape. I think many problems with TKD are not, actually, problems with TKD itself but rather with the proliferation of dojos and the existence of McDojos - which is what happens when something gets popular. So I think that what MrBezerker dislikes certainly exists, but that it is not a fair critique of TKD - after all, I've been to a couple of rather ridiculous kung-fu classes which were so esoteric (but lacking the actual esoteric training required) as to be laughable, and which I found about as realistic or 'street-effective' as lying down in the road

My point, of course, is not that kung-fu sucks - quite the opposite in fact, but that it is easy to gain the wrong impression of a martial art when subjected to its worse excesses and a corruption of what it originally is. To claim that a sport-oriented TKD dojo is a bad dojo is like claiming that a football team is rubbish because they can't defend themselves on the street
Posted by: Dereck

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/28/06 01:11 PM

Some things I can agree with and some things I don't. I agree with Oldman and you should not generalize that the majority are like this unless you have visited the majority of them.

Forms: More to them then meets the eye. Not always sold on them but understand why they are necessary with one of the biggest reasons being repetition of techniques in a fashion that is easily duplicated. This is much better then doing hundreds of kicks, knife hand blocks, etc. repeatedly in front of the mirror.

One Steps: Big fan of these and find them extremely useful. Have to react to a partner punching at your face. We use contact the higher you go and finish off blocks, controlled punches, thundering sweeps and trips, etc. When you do this with many of us, including myself, expect to put your all into it and feel the pain.

Sparring: I need to be better at this but this is extremely beneficial. Timing, distance, controlling energy, pacing yourself, looking for openings, defending, evading, etc. The list goes on and on. I don't compete ... I'm not looking for any awards.

Non-Contact Sparring: Don't do this unless it is in class to practice lightly to warm up or working on certain drills. And if we do it, it is done lightly and controlled but don't do very often.

Board Breaking: We we do this and has taught me many things which I have posted in the past. Not for everybody but is a useful tool.

Belt Ranking: I agree with a little of this. To pass a test they of course must show their requirements but many people can pass and just scrape by. If they are happy with being less then marginal martial artists then good. I don't accept this for myself and I really only have to worry about myself, don't I? And if I ever get into a scrap with one of them ... who is going to be the better off?

Newbies: Look around to see what "you" like. If you like just sport sparring then good. If you like it just for the fun, good. If you like it for any reason, good. As long as you are not laying around on the couch or on the computer wasting your life away then good. If all you get out of it is to treat everybody with respect then I'm satisfied. This is a starting point for the newbies and if they have a real passion for it then they will realize what is missing and will search it out ... just like many have ... just like many on this forum have.

Kicking: Kicking is good but yes punching is good as well. You say you cannot go into a fight and expect to win with just kicking ... you are correct ... but don't think punching will make the difference. Don't forget clinching up and sprawling and going to the ground. You want to be balanced then you better know the whole game. Can you win a fight by kicking alone ... you better believe you can. You can with just punching or just grappling. It all depends who you are fighting, the situation, who commits more, who reacts first, and many other factors. All have a chance on their own but your chances get better with the more skills you have.

I think that about covers it. Any questions let me know.
Posted by: MrBerzerker

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/30/06 01:11 AM

Sorry. Maybe I should change the name of this thread to,"The truth about commercialized TKD. I didn't mean to imply that all TKD schools are like this. Depending on where you go in the U.S. schools can be either great, or full of the B.S. that I complained about in this thread. For example the Texas/Arkansas area of TKD takes things pretty seriously. However if you go to the northern midwest all the schools are sport/hobby oriented. I've even heard horror stories about how certian sections of the country have no TKD at all.

I wasn't saying that all TKD schools are like this, and that TKD sucks. I was calling out all the B.S. that goes on in different TKD schools at different times. No school is so bad that they are guilty of all those things. (Well maybe a really bad McDojo). And with the olympic sparring, I don't have THAT big of a problem with it. Just so long as they give non-competing students a chance to do some serious continuous contact sparring. I was basically making fun of those schools that have allowed self defense sparring to take a back seat to sport sparring. Everybody knows that TKD, and sparring were not invented so people could get trophies for playing tag. They were invented as a means of defending oneself, and as an exercise to improve one's ability to block/counterattack.


Speaking of which I have one last thing to make fun of....

Stretching: For the love of God schools need to start teaching their students how to stretch, and expect them to have a certian degree of flexability. I'm not talking about being able to do the splits. I'm not even talking about being able to touch your nose to your knee. I'm talking about simply being able to reach down and touch your toes, without going, "ooch, ouch, awww". I'm also talking about being able to throw your kicks solidly at about six inches above belt level, without wobbling around, and bending over backwards.
Posted by: Ed_Morris

Re: The truth about TKD - 04/30/06 02:59 AM

Quote:

I'm talking about simply being able to reach down and touch your toes, without going, "ooch, ouch, awww". I'm also talking about being able to throw your kicks solidly at about six inches above belt level, without wobbling around, and bending over backwards.



that bad huh? lol gotta love the classes with martial-tourists.
I thought of another criteria, if your dojang has more than 50% of it's students of people that started taking classes within 1 year, it's time to balance out the recruitment/retainment ratio...places that have a 1 year or less average turnout, aren't able to keep their students for a reason...usually the answer is simple: because maybe the instructor suucks and lacks depth.

we have a TKD place in town that has an even quicker turnout of students, they coexist with a weightlifting gym/aerobics and pilates. members of the gym apparently rotate between all of these activities during a month...it basically works out to be 2 classes of TKD per month, and since testing is every two months, people are being ranked every 4th class. The managers of the club tell me the average membership is 1-2 years or off and on during seasons. hmmm...season passes for TKD now. niiice. This version of TKD is basically tae-bo...or lets call it TKB-Tae Kwon Bo. now I ask myself...what has made TKD so well suited for this type of humiliation? I mean, how come it's not surprizing to walk into a TKD class now and see them doing leg kicks without bending the knees, shockingly amature form, multicolor headbands, belts and super thick chestpads but only light contact and no contact to head. and whats with kiais during jumping jacks exercises? I almost threw up on their wall-to-wall carpeted floor dojang.

then I realized, this can't be TKD...but why did they choose to use that name? is there something inherently appealing to soccer moms about an 'Art' with that name? a name they can trust that is not too 'rough', perhaps...but the TKD olympics look very different from what they are doing, wouldn't they get a clue from that? fact is, people don't care...just another activity for them in their adult jungle gym. to each their own...some people work out like gerbils. but at least working out is a good thing I suppose.