"Okinawan" kata in some form?

Posted by: Ronin1966

"Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/27/06 10:55 AM

Good Morning:

Many Okinawan karate kata have been transported across the globe in many different forms, emphasis and "flavors". Whether those movement patterns have been kept intact or have been mutated beyond recognition... or something between the two is always an interesting question. If, if the art you practice either acknowledges an Okinawan influence, or has a direct time-line to "Okinawan relatives" (ie Okinawan Kata) somewhere in the recent past... does your practice maintain any of the following Okinawan kata in some variation/form?

Seisan aka Hangetsu
Seiuchin aka Tekki
Chinto
Sanchin (A "breathing" form)
Tensho (A different "breathing" form)


If you DO possess any of these forms, what are they called??? (Note: I am truly interested in direct Okinawan arts to Korean direct transfers. But acknowledge transfers from the Japanese variations of the original Okinawan kata are likely more common. As such massively problematic re: WW2 and 5 decades since many initial exposures) Several hopefully connected question. My apologies for not being more concise...

Jeff
Posted by: TeK9

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/27/06 11:12 AM

You came to a korean forum using japanese words. Probably best if you were to use english terms instead.
Posted by: JoelM

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/27/06 11:35 AM

http://www.jenningscc.com/TaeKwonDo/PalgweToTaeGuekSwitch.htm
Quote:

Those studying what Korean Tae Kwon Do stylists call the "Pyong-An" patterns, will either be intrigued or alarmed to discover that they are exactly the same patterns practiced in Shotokan karate. In Japanese they are called "Heian". Tae Kwon Do black belts who, as part of their traditional curriculum, studied patterns called Bal-Sek, Chul-Gi, or Kong-San-Koon would do well to know that these patterns are also traditional Shotokan forms with the Japanese names Bassai, Tekki, and Kanku, respectfully. Even the WTF-recognized Palgwe patterns have Japanese origins. If you examine the Pyong-An (Heian) forms, you will see many of the movement sequences are copied directly into the Palgwe patterns.



Check here for TKD forms:
http://mchenry.homeip.net/TangSooDo/forms/
Posted by: BrianS

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/27/06 10:46 PM

Ronin,
I wouldn't say the entire form would appear the same,but you can see many of the similar movements within forms.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/28/06 03:45 PM

Hello BrianS:

Of the quicklist I gave (assuming variations via cultural transfer & time factors)


Seisan aka Hangetsu
Seiuchin aka Tekki
Chinto
Sanchin (A "breathing" form)
Tensho (A different "breathing" form)


Which do you/your art possess? In Korean what are their names?

Jeff
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/28/06 03:53 PM

Hello Joel:

Thank you for the link. Unfortunately, though extensive the only way to determine if the Korean name has any bearing to the Japanese (originally Okinawan kata) seems by watching each and every one I'll have to hope the five I'm after "trensferred" by somebody...

Any chance you know of specific breathing forms done in Goju similar/parallel fasion???

J
Posted by: JoelM

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/28/06 04:30 PM

Unfortunately no, Jeff.

Although I am 99% sure that the ones you are looking for, if they are on that site, would be in the leftmost column under the Tangsoodo/Taekwondo title.
Posted by: Ronin1966

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/28/06 06:45 PM

Hello Tek:

I appreciate the thought, thank you. I use English at every opportunity and feel fairly strongly there runs a serious danger of either cyclical references (ie the Yin/Yang phenomina) and/or using deliberately foreign terminology to obfiscate.

However given my/the header I believe at least am on safe ground in this particular instance... Kata in the generic martial context seems a term embedded in American ~martial culture~ today. Am I genuinely speaking some truly ~alien language~ with that particular term, even here in the forum of our ~Korean airborne Brethern~ (generic)?

Kata (sic. badly translated) might in English be "form"? Similar to an outside observer to the Korean Hyung, Poomose(s), etc. in many gross ways. Merely kata being a term indiginous specific to the Japanese-Okinawan heritage arts.

Jeff
Posted by: BuDoc

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/28/06 08:21 PM

I mean no offense by this. It is no secret that I have something close to disdain for the sport(yes thats correct) of Tae Kwon Do. I feel that it is a weakend, watered down version of Japanese Karate which is a weakend, watered down version of Okinawan Karate.

I have very close friends that are strong advocates of TKD and even with them I have never been impressed by form or function.

I will say that I have not seen all TKD so before I get slammed, I do realize that there must be something there of value(sporting, not martial) that makes it very popular. I only report what I have observed.

Also I will say that I do appreciate the overall athleticism of TKD. TKD practioners very generally are quick, in shape and able to some very impressive acrobatics. No doubt that it takes skill, concentration and dedication. I just don't see its martial aspects, especially where grasping the fundamentals of Okinawan kata application.

What prompted me to stop here was the question about some Okinawan kata.

Of the kata that you mentioned, I practice Seisan and Chinto. These are Okinawan versions (Matsumura Seito in particular) that I have found to have very little similarity to Jspsnese versions. I can only imagine what they would look like from the TKD perspective.

Having said that, If you are not pi$$ed off, I would gladly answer questions you have.

Page
Posted by: Lokkan-Do

Re: "Okinawan" kata in some form? - 04/29/06 01:20 PM

Grab a Tang So Doo school and look at their forms