Beyond 1st. Dan

Posted by: TeK9

Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/15/06 02:46 AM

In almost all styles of martial arts, 1st. Dan, is known as the beginning of your martial arts journey. A plateau in which the practitioner has mastered the basics and is now seeking a deeper understanding. But a deeper understanding of what exactly?

I've heard from some that 1 st. Dan, is the beginning of discovering hidden techniques within the katas. Combining basics and transforming them into advance technique.

Then you have schools of mix martial arts schools, which blend techniques and exercises from several arts, what does reaching a black belt mean to these practitioners? Do these practitioners have a full understanding of the guiding principles involved in their martial arts respectively? How much of a basic understanding do they posses?

If you were to pick up a book, it would probably lead you to think that 1.st Dan, is the pivotal point where a student begins to look inward on some spiritual introspective journey. However, for most of us, our martial training was not taught to us with religious or spiritual emphasis, at least not the way our Asian counter parts are taught.

So what does it mean to be a 1st. Dan in TKD?

I personally no longer believe in the mysticism of the martial arts, and if there is a spiritual journey or some philosophical enlightenment to attain, then it is only done out of someone’s own conscious choice and not because they have attained a black belt.

-Tek
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/15/06 11:39 AM

I've always equated getting one's black belt like learning to play the piano. As a colored belt you are learning all the keys and playing some cords and maybe a few simple songs. At black belt you have the fundimentals down and now you are ready to play songs.

I come from a school that is mixed but when reaching 1st Dan you are only recognized by the WTF Taekwondo ... and that is fine with me. It will be just that my 1st Dan with the mixture of other martial arts will be better then somebody who only takes Taekwondo and knows only those techniques. That if I get together with others and we are showing and learning techniques I will understand better then some and may even exceed others in some.

I don't for once believe in anything mystical about receive a black belt other then the sense of pride and the new color and new uniform. It is only a small goal achieved in a long road of learning. I don't believe you will be more in tuned or more in touch with yourself and your surroundings as this is a personal thing that some will achieve and others won't and they can achieve it earlier or later on in their training ... or may even receive without training.

1st Dan is only a title just like 1st Gup, or private or lieutenant, or sir or ma'am, or mister or misses. Some like titles and some don't. Each to their own and the more power to each.
Posted by: mbac640

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/15/06 12:30 PM

Quote:

I personally no longer believe in the mysticism of the martial arts, and if there is a spiritual journey or some philosophical enlightenment to attain, then it is only done out of someone’s own conscious choice and not because they have attained a black belt.




I'm not so sure spiritual means the same thing to easterners as it does to westerners. Eastern martial arts are surrounded by words like "art" and "way" and "philosophy". And odd thing to mix with sport and exercise and controlled use of physical violence, isn't it?

If you reach 1st dan and don't wander away from martial arts, but instead redouble your efforts, it inevitably grows to encompass a great deal of your life. It's a lot more than just working out. It's undeniable, there's more than physical development that goes on here.

What do you call it?
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/15/06 12:41 PM

Quote:

I've always equated getting one's black belt like learning to play the piano. As a colored belt you are learning all the keys and playing some cords and maybe a few simple songs. At black belt you have the fundimentals down and now you are ready to play songs.




I like Dereck's analogy. I would expand upon it slightly to say that IMHO at BB, you should not just be playing songs, but creating your own original songs.

At BB, you can do kata, punch/kick, etc. But can you explain what you do? Are you able to apply a given technique in different situations? Do you know the underlying principles involved?

These are just some of the things that BB's should be working on.
Posted by: trevek

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/15/06 02:03 PM

I think first dan is a kind of point which you can say you have arrived at which shows you have dedicated yourself to a goal and have worked for it over a number of years.

However, it is also a point where you realise it is not the be all and end all and that you still have so much more to learn.
Posted by: SaBumNim

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/15/06 11:03 PM

A black belt means that you have "learned how to learn"; not only from your instructors, but also from yourself.

Just my opinion.

SaBum Nim
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/16/06 12:14 AM

I think that a new blackbelt should be given the opportunity to teach under someone. I learned more in the few years from 1st to 2nd dan by teaching than all the years up to 1st dan.

The blackbelt just signafies a good student IMO. He has reached his one time goal and now should begin to realize that he has just scratched the surface.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/16/06 12:43 AM

I agree with Brian as well about the teaching. I'm no black belt but I've had several opportunities to teach one on one as well as teaching a group. Heck I've been stuck where I am due to my physical limitations that I have taught most of the class Taegeuk 8 who are at red belt and have passed red belt. And now I seem to be the go to person when new people start to teach fundimental techniques, not to mention to pass on grappling tips to those I train with (as well as receive grappling tips). In my limited teaching I have become better at doing things as I am more aware ... and awareness is a part of growing.
Posted by: Shyro

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/16/06 09:29 PM

In my opinion, based on my personal experience, attaining the rank of 1st dan is not the cause of change. At least not directly.

After attaining 1st dan, one can start teaching and that's the really big change. In my case it forced me to think beyond my instructor's teachings and even question them. I started reading about all sorts of martial arts, their techniques and principles. All this just because I wanted to provide the best possible martial arts training to my students.

Since then I have learned a lot. If I had continued training with my instructor, this personal development would not have happened. So I think the consequences of becoming a 1st dan might, or might not put a martial artist beyond the beguinner's level. It not because of the colour of the belt holding your dobok that you'll be better than before.

I now consider that becoming a black belt should mean that you start questioning what you have learned in order to improve it and yet, you should also continue to learn from orders.

Martial arts are a never ending process to attain the unattainable perfection.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/23/06 09:39 PM

All the extra training you do in your dojang is it part of the TKD curriculum? Are you tested on the material during belt examinations? Or are you just tested on TKD techniques and you are only recieving a pure TKD rank? Or are there several ranks in your school? Like are you earning ranks in TKD, hapkido, and JJ?
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/24/06 01:37 AM

When being tested as colored belts it is strictly the Taekwondo format of patterns, one-steps, sparring and board breaking. Obtaining your first Dan is the same. It isn't until 3rd Dan and higher then the grappling is a part of the testing and is recognized as a requirement.

The belts we wear are just that, Taekwondo. Even with our three schools they are all run differently. The main owner of the name and the largest school is strictly Taekwondo blended with Hapkido. Another owner is Taekwondo blended with Hapkido but trains BJJ as extra classes on Tuesday and Saturdays and many of his students do not take Taekwondo. This owner/Instructor trains with my Instructor as well both took JJJ and became Black Belts together and both are students of David Meyer (Machado BJJ). Then there is our school where all the students are exposed to Taekwondo blended with Hapkido, JJJ and BJJ and some MMA. The MMA is something that my Instructor trains 5 days a week at with a Shoot Fighting Club. I should also mention that all of the owners are friends and trained under the same Korean Master who taught them Taekwondo/Hapkido.

Though we all are under the same name and we all test for black belts together, each of the students receive different curriculms depending on what Instructor they go to. Another school also takes their black belt tests with us but they are purely Taekwondo with a heavy emphasis on sport and demonstration. This individual is also a friend. Now after these black belt test we have to take a Provincial Test put on by the WTF ... so in essense you have to test twice for any black belts. The nice thing is the hard one is our own.

So our belts are only recognized as Taekwondo but some of us know a little more then the others. This is why I thank my lucky stars where I train and who I train with. It doesn't cost me extra or have to go to separate classes ... it is all there all packaged nicely together and blended so that it is seamless. Stand up to takedown to ground work ... it just seems so natural and can't imagine doing it any other way.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/24/06 12:02 PM

Tek,

I would also have you take a look at what you mean as MMA. MMA is a different animal to mixing martial arts and is probably more close to shoot fighting or Vale Tudo with a complete set of principals guiding the techniques.

Now mixing styles without addressing "how" one puts together aspects of different systems is a different story and would require a different teaching paradigm.

I like how Dereck's instructors are proceeding, but I think they are doing a little of both...teaching MMA and mixing stylistic elements. Two separate things in my book.

-B
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 03/24/06 12:56 PM

Quote:

I like how Dereck's instructors are proceeding, but I think they are doing a little of both...teaching MMA and mixing stylistic elements. Two separate things in my book.




Correct, they are taught as two different things.

Our based curriculm is Taekwondo with Hapkido blended. Self defense blends everything from Taekwondo, Hapkido, JJJ and BJJ all blended together by our Instructor to fill in gaps and to make it flow. We also train "sport" sparring of Taekwondo, not to mention grappling. And then we have MMA days.

For the record I don't want anybody to confuse the MMA train I take with what a pure MMA training facility is. I would put our MMA training more as drills. It is like anything, you come to class and it may be grappling day, or it may be forms day or it may be WTF sparing day ... and then it is MMA day. It follows the style of Pankration of stand up fighting that involves throws, sweeps, take downs, etc. It continues on the ground by being pinned or if you verbally tap out due to blows from punches or elbows. Of course realizing that on ground work elbows and punches are minimal and are just to make the training partners realize they must defend from these. Stand up is 60-70% to body and 30% to head. Head shots should be controlled and nobody should be throwing haymakers or throwing out blind punches and jabs. And also realize this does not happen all of the time. We may do a couple of times in a month and then not for another month or so. It all depends on the skill levels of the class as we try to rotate everybody around so they get used to different sizes and skill levels and techniques. A good training tool which adds some realism into the training. This way you can understand about not throwing super high or flashing kicks and keeping them lower to the legs or mid section. Not turning your back to your opponent for doing back kicks or to walk away but to remained focused. You learn to use the sprawl and clinch techniques. Realize your elbows and knees are weapons as well ... not to mention to defend against them. A drill I'd like to do more often but also realize their are many things in our curriculm that are important as well.

Perhaps if something in our curriculm really fascinates us then realize that later we may wish to follow that path and cross train ourselves so that we have more focus just on that part of the curriculm. That going to a school with just this focus is the best way to train more in these areas ... we only get into parts of it and in no way are we a pure grappling school, or MMA school, etc. This is what our Instructor emphasizes and would like people to do as this is what he did. In fact he thought I'd enjoy Judo and thinks later I should look into this. And then as we learn we can bring more stuff back backing everybody else a little better.
Posted by: tkdbutterfly

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/07/06 09:01 PM

It seems that those who reach black belt and stick around beyond that were the equivalent of the gifted students in the regular class as they came up through the color belts. They tended to stand out in class, at testings and at tournaments. In the black belt ranks, you suddenly find yourself as just one of the gifted ones in the gifted class as the others dropped out. It is a journey into becoming a more humble person and realizing how much there is still to learn. It some ways it is like a journey in which you are traveling to reach the top of a hill. When you finally reach the top, you suddenly realize that this isn't the end of your journey, but that you have reached the point where a whole new, exciting vista is now open to you.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/07/06 09:50 PM

I guess my question is asking, how much more is there really to learn?

What vistas await me?

These are the real questions I am asking. Furthermore, I think it is the combination of instruction and the students own consious that he/she becomes humble. I have seen and met many martial artist who are back belts who are the least bit humble. I'd also like to add that in the Olympic style of taekwondo where competition is emphasized many of the practitioners from what I have seen are not very humble.
Posted by: White_Fox

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/16/06 10:19 AM

Quote:

In my opinion, based on my personal experience, attaining the rank of 1st dan is not the cause of change. At least not directly.

After attaining 1st dan, one can start teaching and that's the really big change. In my case it forced me to think beyond my instructor's teachings and even question them. I started reading about all sorts of martial arts, their techniques and principles. All this just because I wanted to provide the best possible martial arts training to my students.

Since then I have learned a lot. If I had continued training with my instructor, this personal development would not have happened. So I think the consequences of becoming a 1st dan might, or might not put a martial artist beyond the beguinner's level. It not because of the colour of the belt holding your dobok that you'll be better than before.

I now consider that becoming a black belt should mean that you start questioning what you have learned in order to improve it and yet, you should also continue to learn from orders.

Martial arts are a never ending process to attain the unattainable perfection.




That is exactly what I needed to hear thanks mate!
Posted by: WavyD

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/25/06 11:41 PM

In my experience it's a matter of learning more about yourself as a martial artists and a warrior. If your not perfect yet, and none of us every will be, then there is always more to learn and perfect. Once your able to help others find their path, your own path opens up as well. Watch a good instructor and they can pick apart your strategy and tactics.
Many times in sparring or tournaments I'll see great competitors who would obviously be lost if left to develop their own strategy. As you progress throught the BB ranks you'll learn more about strategy and tactics and be able to pass that on, if your open to learn.

Regarding the competitors and their attitudes, I think it's also important to remember that for many of these athletes this may simply be their sport of choice, for others we're simulating battle. Some are better at turning on and off the "game face" than others. Some need to get psyched up and having a little attitude, or "emotional content", can add to their confidence and rediness. That being said I too have seen a number of people at tournaments that I'd like to kick out for poor sportsmanship and poor marital spirit. Tournaments are friendly combat.
Posted by: sjon

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/26/06 05:40 AM

Wavy, I notice you're mainly talking about tournament skills. In my experience, most people I know beyond, say, 2nd Dan are already either too old to compete realistically or have work or family obligations which mean they can't afford the commitment necessary. That kind of makes how much you progress in that field a bit irrelevant.

Apart from that, the interesting question would be what kind of SD material or weapons are taught after 1st Dan. In Spain, at least, very little. Nothing in the way of realistic pattern interpretation. What SD stuff there is is basically up to each instructor and how much HKD/JJ/MT stuff he may happen to have picked up over the years.
Posted by: sjon

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/26/06 05:42 AM

Quote:

That being said I too have seen a number of people at tournaments that I'd like to kick out for poor ... marital spirit.




In what sense? Being nice to your spouse? Remembering birthdays? "Performing" satisfactorily on a regular basis?
Posted by: TeK9

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/27/06 11:35 AM

Don't be harsh on the guy sjon.

WavyD,

What you said is kind of the text book answer for black belts and beyond. However, it's a really bad misconceoption because knowing ring strategy and sparring tactics can only be taught by someone who actually has experiences, someone who specializes in that aspect of TKD. There are far to many Traditional martial artist who claim they know the sports side of the martial arts.. In this case TKD being an Olympic sport and the most popular of the martial arts, many young students tend to enroll for the sports element.

This is not to say that the reverse side of this statement is not true, there are many schools claim to teach traditional methods of self defense and yet only concentrate on sparring. Now sparring is a great component to have and really enhances your skills as martial artist when fighting or using self defense, however, sparring has it's limitations and should be supplemented with traditional methods of self defense such as step sparring, where the more dangerous infact lethal components of the arts are honed.

Although in many cases sparring as really enhancd the way we now see combat, many traditionalist believe in the one hit kill method. Concentrating all their power on technique, through sparring we have come to realize that this is not always the case, an opponent wil not always be defeated with just one technique. This paved the way for the new techniques practiced in TKD, the shorter stances the foot work, the judgeing of distance and timing of the kicks. Having learned all this new enhanced kicks emerged to replace the now more traditional ones. Snappier new controlled kicks, replaced the slower more powerful ones.

But as I was saying, learning sparring tactics is not someting that just any Master can teach you, they must have had someone teach them these techniques or they must have developed themselves through their own tournament experiences.
Posted by: WavyD

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/27/06 05:10 PM


Yeah nice one..
Posted by: WavyD

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/27/06 05:19 PM

True I used tournament sparring as an example but please don't misunderstand that combat strategy and tactics are the key to the martial part of martial arts. You just have to know the rules of engagement. Tournament sparring is a game, they call us players or athletes, not fighters. But you can take the combat knowledge and develope it with the right instruction.

Oh and I guess sounding like a text book is bad? good or what? ha ha! I guess it's from writing too many papers and reports...

Posted by: WavyD

Re: Beyond 1st. Dan - 04/27/06 05:30 PM

Quote:

Wavy, I notice you're mainly talking about tournament skills. In my experience, most people I know beyond, say, 2nd Dan are already either too old to compete realistically or have work or family obligations which mean they can't afford the commitment necessary. That kind of makes how much you progress in that field a bit irrelevant.

Apart from that, the interesting question would be what kind of SD material or weapons are taught after 1st Dan. In Spain, at least, very little. Nothing in the way of realistic pattern interpretation. What SD stuff there is is basically up to each instructor and how much HKD/JJ/MT stuff he may happen to have picked up over the years.




Well to be honest I was talking more about combat skills and used tournaments as an example. Combat skills can help you in the ring, but the reverse isn't always true.

The average age of 1st and 2nd Dan I know is about 20 yr's old maybe even 18. I'm one of the old guys at 30, but I studied other arts before I got into TKD. One of my instructors fought and won at the National level at 45. Keep in mind she does have a full time job ecetera so I don't think that you have to be too old to compete. I think you can find the balance to do what you want in many cases.

Your right about the level of SD training you get depending on the instructor. You have to find someone open to other styles, because they understand the doctrines, in order to get a well rounded martial experience in my opinion.

Hopefully I'm not too textbook.