Jr. Black Belts in TKD
Posted by: TeK9
Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/28/06 04:16 PM
I have read many post where people express thier opinions about young children receiving thier black belts at a young age. I myself was witness to a black belt test which a 7 year old boy who was extremely talented earned his jr. black belt.
I was currently enrolled in a traditional tkd school and this kid had been practicing since the age of 2 and after 5 years he had become an exceptional martial artist.
I myself question whether certain kids should be allowed to obtain BB but then I've got to thinking. That certain arts are not as lethal as other arts and although tkd is a striking art which has devastaing techniques if applied correctly, it doesnt really have a huge arsenal interms of lokcing and grappling. And with the masny aspects of tkd competition being one of them a child can choose to focas on many things such as forms or sparring.
It so happends this young man was very talented with forms. We could do all the traditional forms perfectly and was creative enough to creatate his own routines for competition. He was a state champ. And his basic techniques were perfect they only lacked the power of an adult. And I got to thinking that in 10 years this kid could be a devastating fighter. However, for now he is earning his jr. black belt and is being put through a rigorous 2 hour test to obtain it, so why not, why not let him have it? He is konwledgeable in basic self defense and in advance striking techniques, he just doesnt know any of the lethal or fatal techniques and for good reason.
So I ask you, my fellow artist to please state your opinions. I dont think there is a real right or wrong here, then again maybe there could be. so please share with us.
Posted by: Sushi
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/28/06 07:57 PM
Quote:
I myself was witness to a black belt test which a 7 year old boy who was extremely talented earned his jr. black belt.
...and this kid had been practicing since the age of 2 and after 5 years he had become an exceptional martial artist.
that is a absolutely ridiculous 
he startet at the age of 2 with Taekwondo. He is not able to do anything else than playing aruound or doing something similar to moving his feet instead of kicking.
You are not trying to fool us? arenīt you??
Here in good old Germany minimum age for starting taekwondo at any dojang is seven years , or eight years!
I think I better donīt answer this question. You just want to provoke, arenīt you?
Posted by: mean_fighter
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/28/06 10:55 PM
Agreed! I do traditional TKD myself and have seen younger kids at higher belt levels then me but, still dont make it to black belt until they are at a physical and mental level of maturity. My instructor wont teach any kids younger then 10 years old!
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/28/06 11:35 PM
Honestly, my instructor told me he begun his training at age of 2. He had older an brother and sister training at the school. And he used to watch them, and my instructor gave his parents permission to participate.
This is not to provoke an argument. I saw his test it was one of the first bb test I ever saw. He was tested on basic kicks, punches, poomse and inpromptu forms, weapons forms, step sparring, written essay abbout why he wanted to be a black belt.
To me he was a little mutant ninja turtle. As far as I know he knew everything except how to hurt people real bad. Is he not a legit jr. black belt?
Posted by: tkd_high_green
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/29/06 11:33 AM
As you said, it sounds like a valid "Junior" black belt to me. Thats the point of having them isn't it? For kids who know the material but don't have the maturity of an adult. At our school, any student who earns a Junior Black Belt must retest again at a later date (When my instructor feels they are mature enough) to earn their black belt. I see no reason not to reward students who have trained for a significant number of years with a junior black belt, and when mature enough, their black belt. However, I don't think you can blindly assign an age at which to consider that student to be "mature" or not. I know many 13 year olds who are significanly more mature than many 18 year olds, or for that matter some 40+ year olds that I know. In many ways, the junior black belt is like a Junior Operators (Drivers) License. We as a socitety acknowlege a persons skill in an area, allow them the priviledge to drive a potentially deadly vehicle, but also acknowledge a potential lack of maturity. This is primarily because the person administering the driving test doesn't know the person behind the wheel and can only assess their techinal abilities. Where as, a MA instructor knows the student and family for many year, and is a better judge of a students maturity level. When I earn my black belt, I know I will be less technically capable in some areas than many of the adolescents when they earn theirs. I may not be able to kick as high, or be as flexible, or jump as well. Is it any more right that I should earn my belt in less time than a kid, simply because I am more mature?
Laura
Posted by: trevek
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/29/06 11:44 AM
I trained in Judo in the early 1970's and I was 7 or 8 (can't remember, you had to be one age for cub-scouts and the other for judo). I don't recall seeing very young BB's at that time.
However, there is a serious question, if sports like gymnastics and dancing allow very young children to train in what are exceedingly demanding physical activities, then why is it so strange for kids to train in MA from a young age?
Granted, there is the question of responsibility, but this is the reason for restricted knowledge of technique (no locks or chokes in junior Judo) and junior grades.
Just a question, how many kids in places like the US learn to handle firearms at a young age (not US bashing, but in UK we can't, except in organisations like army cadets)?
When I was younger I did shotokan karate (about 15-20 years ago). When we were in the kids class we went through all of the junior ranks and then when I got to brown belt we went on and started the senior gradings. We never had a junior black belt, but we did all of the junior grades up to that and it was very much known to everyone that they went on to the senior grades after junior brown.
The Junior grades were pretty easy to go through and it meant that kids were progressing which pleased us. Once we got to the senior grades though, that was when it all strarted again, but for real this time.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/29/06 04:27 PM
Quote:
However, there is a serious question, if sports like gymnastics and dancing allow very young children to train in what are exceedingly demanding physical activities, then why is it so strange for kids to train in MA from a young age?
I think this largely is due to the rather subjective use of belt ranking in MAs. In gymnastics, dancing, football etc. the only way you can differentiate(yes, I do take pure maths) students, is on ability. In a MA, it is very easy to try and equate skill with belt attainment. IMO, too much is made of this link- it may be true of older students to a certain degree, but there will always be large differences in ability between a 12 year old,a 25 year old, and a 50 year old.
In my organisation, there are very few young black belts. I believe the youngest ever was just 9 years old, but I would think the average age is nearer 30. This 9 year old was a daughter of an instructor and had thus been taught from a very young age- personally, I still think she was too young, but hey.
I believe personally that all children should be regularly given gymnastics classes. The reason is very simple- gymnastics is a solid base, from which one can take up almost any sport. Better to equip children with the attributes to choose what they want to do when they are older, than to force them into a MA when they are too young to truly appreciate it.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/29/06 05:51 PM
Many people complain because the children are learning a watered down version on the art. However, from this point of view that doesn't seem so bad, I mean the last thing I want is for my son to gouge the eyes or rip out the throat of a school yard bully. I much prefer he used punches to give him a bloody nose. I mean if he had to defend himself period. Maybe there are just certain arts that should not be taught to children, maybe seperating the grappling arts from the striking arts, but then again this leaves question as to what strikes are appropriate. And then theres judo, boxing, wrestling.
I mean the way it is now, martial arts are geared towards children, and we must find a way to motivate them. Otherwise everyone lose's. I can certainly see why so many schools turn into mcdojangs, even if the instructor is a true practitioner and loves teaching MA if he has no way of motivating his kid students he is done for. He has to find a way to atleast pay for the monthly rent. Through belt test, added tip/stripes and even contracts to protect himself, which ofcourse can be mispercieved by the public. What to do, what to do?
I don't think it should be allowed to have Jr. black belts. If a young kid who wouldn't be able to defend himdelf in a real situation (and by this I mean kids older than him.) If he is confronted by someone with bad intentions, he might decide to stay and fight instead of running like he should, because he has a false sense of security because of his black belt. My old dojang had some black belts that were as young as 6 or 7, which is one of the reasons I decided to start going to the adult classes, and eventually switch dojangs. Just my two cents.
-Karl
Posted by: TeK9
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 01/31/06 10:34 PM
That makes a lot of sense, but me being a black belt myself. I'm not going to fight anyone unless I have no choice. I plan to defend myself and if I cant get away then I suppose I have to stand and fight.
But my first instict is to avoid a violent confrontation, second to defend myself, usually this by walking away and sometimes running away. But if I have to, I gets down with my bad self.
Thanks for your 2 cents karlhtkdstudent
Posted by: schanne
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/02/06 04:10 PM
I think it's great, he put his time in and deserves it just like anyone else would. Let's get one thing straight though...he needs to know that he is a junior bb and should understand what it means. Again just like an adult it is really the begining to further his MA skills.
For the junior BB na sayers I would like to discuss this topic in more detail since it always seems to come up here and with many of our students parents(These days it seem the only thing they care about is how fast little Johnny will get his BB and if it's not as fast as the school down the street I might leave this dojo and go else where!!
).
In your opinions, what age is suitable for someone to recieve a BB and why? Please no bashing lets keep it civil
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/02/06 04:19 PM
This is a hard question schanne. In our system, until you are 16 you are a junior black belt. I must also point out that I have seen some junior black belts that are phenominal and I have also seen many adult black belts that don't deserve it. Which is better?
I think there should be a guideline and maybe 16 years old is a good guideline. If some are more deserving at a younger age then take them individually and make that decision. As for adults ... what kind of guidelines can you make? Some did their requirements so do then not deserve it? It is just like a drivers license. They did the requirements to get it but that does not necessarily make them a good driver ... not by far. Some have disabilities or unable to perform some techniques that others can but put their time in, have the heart of a black belt and did their necessary requirements. Do they not deserve it?
I know this is getting off topic but I think they relate to each other. I would hate to hold a phenominal child from getting their black belt when they are better then many adults. Some kids are just that good.
My answer is ... I don't know ... I really don't know.
Posted by: TacoBill
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/02/06 04:49 PM
My son, 11 y/o, has a 1st Poom BB. Received it when he was 7 or 8. Early on, he thought it was 'cool' to have a BB. That was until he started practicing (concurrently) Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. He quickly learned that belt colors meant very little when it came down to fighting. Looking back, even he admits that he should'nt have received his BB at such an early age.
Basically in TKD, it boils down to this, like it or not; you pay $$$, you'll move up in the ranks.
In GJJ, you move up when you're ready.
Posted by: schanne
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/03/06 10:29 PM
The whole subject of kids with BB is overwhelming anymore, between the parent pressure and the forum I'm still totally confused but still believe that it's all relative. To me it's just a belt and I'm not going to loose sleep over the subject. As they progress over the years and become teenagers I will take it more serious if they are still training. Right now it a great goal for them to achieve. It's something they can be proud of, there just kids and it's only karate to them at this point in their life. As adults we take Karate-do much more serious, lets let the kids be kids, it's only another rank.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/04/06 01:30 AM
In the end schanne ... you are correct. It doesn't affect the way I train or others so what is the big deal? We can't stop it and no matter how much people gripe, it will continue on as long as people are willing to buy into it. It is like every new piece of exercise equipment or programs that come out and people buy them. Some people genuinely benefit from them and they seek more ... and then you have others it doesn't because they don't put their heart into it as they were looking for a quick fix and now it sits in a corner with cloths draped on it. Sure they can brag they have one all they want ... but there is no benefit to it ... just like a lot of black belts (juniors and adults). But if there are some that it worked for ... then it makes it all worth it.
Posted by: trevek
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/04/06 05:34 PM
Taco, sorry but it depends which TKD org you are with as to how you move up. I've been on some very tough gradings where kids were treated no differently.
Posted by: RockHard Huy
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/04/06 07:33 PM
Quote:
my instructor told me he begun his training at age of 2. He had older an brother and sister training at the school. And he used to watch them, and
Your instructor is seven years old? You've got some serious humility, gj
Posted by: elly12
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/05/06 04:22 AM
Tek I'd have to say that I have seen some schools promoting young children on what appears to be contract training or worse. It is the same with adults as well. I was in Korea for some time and one of the instructors I'd encountered commented on the superb skill of a 10 year, but said "yet, his youth continues to hinder him". I think it's wonderful to see children excel in the martial arts, but remember they are still children. There is more to a BB than know moves
Posted by: JohnL
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/05/06 10:49 AM
As much as I am insulted by having 13, 14, 15 year old blackbelts around. Let's for discussion purposes call them "Junior" blackbelts. How insulted they must be to be catagorized in the same manner as a 7 year old "Junior" blackbelt. Maybe under 8's sould be called "PeeWee" blackbelts.
Not wanting upset the new "PeeWee" blackbelts, maybe the under 5's should be "Tiny Tot" blackbelts.
Is it only me that finds this whole issue pointless.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Jr. Black Belts in TKD - 02/05/06 12:43 PM
Quote:
Is it only me that finds this whole issue pointless.
Unfortunately it is. There is nothing that is going to change by discussing it. Many people have valid points ... but these points have been brought up time and time again in this forum and in others such as Martial Arts Talk. Understandably many discussing it now are newer to the forum and never went through it the times before ... and as history dictates it will be discussed again in the future.
Again many insightful points made but I'm guessing this has run its course. If you have any other points that you think would be new and insightful then contact Razorfoot or myself and we can add to this post. Thank you all for your cooperation. Meeting adjourned.
