Martial Art vs. Martial Sport

Actually that is where some people differ in opinion. For me Traditional TKD kicking techniques are different from Modern TKD kicking techniques which are used in olympic style sparring.

But both hand techniques from "traditional"and "modern" are identical.

Please add more to your post. Now that I've tried to clarify this up.

I understood what you posted. The lines begin to get blurry dont they?

I think this question between martial art and martial sport is going to need some extra terms added to it such as "budo" and "bujutsu" For a simple description of these they can be found on google.

I've been thinking about the debate between M-arts and M-sports, to me it's beggining to sound ust like politics between the old and the new.

Taekwondo is both a martial art and a martial sport. Forms, self defense and all of that stuff is martial arts. Competing in the olympics or the sake of sparring only is martial sports. One is traditional and one is sport. Some schools will train just traditional, some schools will train just sport and some schools will train both. This includes ITF, WTF and any others I missed.

Scoring a point could be seen as scoring a punch or kick in self defense or in fighting. Free sparring is the next best thing to actual combat.

But the boundary conditions never change. You will always start off at fighting distance from each other, and neither of you will have a weapon, and the sparring ring will always be a set size.

In an SD situation, all of these will vary and therefore one needs to train for it. That is why I make a distinction between the goals of sport and art.

Ok, lets see.When you practice martial art as a sport it pretaines to nothing else in your life, like brushing your teeth or combing your hair.In the martial art way of life it is much more than just doing these things.You strive for perfection and simplicity in everything you do.

At the end of my training session i do not leave my art at the dojo, i take it with me and everything i do from the time i wake up untill i fall asleep, should be as perfect and as simple as possible.Not just my kata and sparring are to be perfect but myself as a person.

Look at the japanese and okinawan masters,everthing from opening a door to pouring tea was perfect THAT my friend is martial art!

Hmm, interesting.

Firstly, I'd suggest that just because a martial sport isn't the same as a martial art that doesn't mean it has no effect on your life philosophy or have a deeper meaning. After all, many sports people and dancers have a very spiritual and philosophical outlook through their sport/discipline.

A sport can, of course, provide certain benefits which we seek in our MA but may not readily come by, such as the realisation of winning and losing, the fear of conflict and the need for discipline to get up after you lose.

As much as we think MA training gives us this it may not. After all, I might train in a non-competitive art for years and never find myself needing to use it, therefore I may not ever relate it to my everyday life. On the other hand, I might train in a martial sport and find those qualites of self-discipline and resilience more of a requirement through the nature of competition.

Then again, we need to ask what is a martial art? Is archery a sport or an art? What are wrestling or Judo? Judo particularly is used by LEO's etc and is a practical system, however it is also readily used for sport.

At first, I thought that i could say that a Martial sport is something which uses aspects of a Martial Art but limits itself, due to the nature of sport, with regards to applications. It is also geared to competition and winning. However, I realised a lot of this could be said about an MA.

Might I suggest then, that an MA is something in which a Martial Sport can be found and exist, however part of the art is knowing when (and having the ability)to leave the sport behind?

True trevek. Sport can have an positive impact on a persons life as much as an art can. But overall I feel 50/50 about the whole "sport vs art" thing. Once you think about it dont they need eachother in a way?

Sushi,

I knew you would have a response for gojuwarrior
After all those who participate in martial sports athletes in training which is one step more than just training in the martial arts.

I think some of the people who post on here should look up the terms Budo, Bujutsu, Martial arts, DO

To get a better understanding. So that they can add more substance to thier posts. I myself have looked up these words and am trying to think of a good way to express myself and explain what martial art/sport is, right now I cant, but so far to me tey are the same.

In terms of self defense, free sparring is the closest thing you have to actual combat. So sparring is very important in training for several reasons, not just technical, physical but also psychological.

I'll have more for yo guys in a bit, keep posting guys. Everyone is doing great, feel free to add as many posts as you want, we all change our opinions or add to them as time goes on. Keep em coming fellas.

Here is a good story about a martial arts master and a martial arts champion. http://www.24fightingchickens.com/2005/10/15/the-master-and-the-champion/ .

I have studied TKD as both and there is a distinct difference to me, at least from the schools I trained with.

In the Martial Art school (Moo Duk Kwan), I sparred in a street practical method for confrontation and learned hapkido techniques to augment my self defence. We studied some poomse but spent the majority of the time training for practical self defence. We used punching and kicking techniques to the face and all target areas. We used leg strikes to set up other techniques and elbows and knees were used much more frequently than in my other school.

Martial Sport (Kukkiwon), trains for olympic style sparring relying significantly on the roundhouse kick. The majority of the strikes are to the body with no punches to the face and only kicking to the face at the black belt level only. We train for sport copetition with only a small part of the time dedicated to practical self defence.

The sport aspect has helped me and hurt me a bit. The sport aspect is much more demanding physically because the training pushes me to the limits of my stamina. I am in better shape now that I have ever been from a stamina perspective. In having to select which targets I can and cannot strike with certain techniques (punches and no low kicks), I have had to alter my basic sparring/fighting style. In my mind, this has hurt my sparring.

Depending on what you are looking for, either has its benefit. I prefer training for practical self defence but having done so in the past, I can apply what I am studying now to those circumstances. I fight/spar outside of class which helps me to retrain my mind and body to fight without the sporting limitations I put on myself when I am doing olympic style sparring.

There is a definite difference so check things out well before you sign up for a school or for a specific type of training. Make sure it fits your specific needs/desires/goals.

Good luck and have fun,

Scottie

I had an article published on this topic - The Martial Question - . Check it out at my website. http://www.geocities.com/ustfregion5/What.htm

A martial art is an art studied as a way of life.
A martial sport is an art where one seeks competative opportunities in a regulated inviroment, be it for cash, trophies, glory. It is where the main goal is competition in a sporting venue and not a life choice.
This being said, some can choose a martial sport and keep it as a martial art. It is completely possible to study and train in something as a life style choice, yet still be competative in the sporting cirucit. Aa martial sport also can cross over to a martial art. It is all in how the practitioner carries it.

I agree with Sport and Art statemnet. I have some friends now too old to compete they range from Boxers, Wrestlers, MT boxers, Karatekas, TKDs and others once they get too old to compete its over they hang up training and just talk about what could have been & never train again.

Judo seems different its seems to hold the older practitioners through out some times and its usually heavy on competition. Some like Aikido, Jujitsu and Hapkido seem to draw more older students that want to continue training in a Do or self defense art. Not the same we know but the draw is older crowd most of the times. Younger people are attracted to this way also, not ruffle any feathers, I was.

Karate/TKD/Gung/Kungfu/Sialt... the above mentioned and others have a large number of S/D students. Bc its stresses continued growth throughout life.

It only makes sense you can only compete so long, its hard to see a once excellent fighters still fighting a young mans game. Some can compete but its rougher on them, then it was when they were younger.

My last fight people asking when and where was I fighting again. But I knew it was over. Too many near misses on me, too many of me stumbling and just could get there in time. I won that HW division. You really know when it time, some just you live in denial. It not about winning, its about giving your best performance, you know when you can't give 100% anymore, in that arena.

But I am still a Perpetual student of the MAs.

Trevek,

Good job I htink your on the right path. At least for me my opinion is currently very similar to yours. Thats why I started this thread so I can add to my conclusion. Right now I can't see a clear distinction between the two. But I hope to come to an understanding real soon.

I'd question that training in a sport is not also a way of life. I can't see how the sacrifice and discipline needed to successfully train in any sport cannot be considered a way of life.

Let's not forget, many sports people are never that successful at their sports that they win, but they continue training. How many people have trained for years in MA and then find themselves ex-MAists after they get a demanding job, or get married, or move somewhere else. I nearly found myself walking that path after over 10 years of training.

Let's not forget, many sports competitiors become trainers when their competitive career is over. I can think of a number of successful people who first became well known as sports competitors and have since gone on to have successful business or political careers. Can't we say that the discipline and training of their sports training has been useful to them in their careers outside of sports? Surely then we must consider sports can also be a way of life.

Amen..

Goju I love that story. If you find or have anymore like it please let me know. I love reading them and expressing them to my students. Story time kids. woot woot!

Nice job treek, stick and move baby, stick and move.
I agree sports can defiently be a way of life. Remember guys what makes martial arts different from "just a fighting sytem" is that they teach philosophy, morals, self development through self discipline. TKD whether taught as sport or traditional...is still considered a martial art. BooYaKa!

Keep the posts coming fellas, this duscussion is getting interesting.

What about the people who earn their money with it, are they also MA's?

// more oil on the fire..

Hmmm good question I have no idea. I taught over 100 students for 3 years for free. At the local gym. The last year and a half I was being payed. Once my instructor opened a new school he took over my 100 students. So i pretty much bank rolled his school. SO now I recieve free lessons. I did it for the love of the art. I was also inspired by my instrucotr. When I first met him in 2000' he was only charging 50 dollars per person. And he was giving family discounts. A family of 8 people were only paying $200 a month. What a saint!

I thought here is a guy who loves this art. Not to mention he teachers the aspect of TKD which most schools charge extra for teaching, he teaches sports tkd and trains atheltes. MOst TKD schools charge extra for this kind of training because its modern. Most traditional instructors dont know much about modern sports sparring and strategies. Thats why I always say. It doesn't matter whether a school is a member of the WTF that doesnt mean they know anything about olympic style sparring.

As a matter of fact there was another school in town, who lost 25 students to us, and I'm talking about state and national champions because they were not recieving the proper training.

Rembrandt painted for money... a commercial painter or an artist?

Rembrandt painted for money... a commercial painter or an artist?

I'd suggests artists are often people who can afford to be.

Now thats what I'm talking about.