My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. Yours?

Posted by: TKDFighter89

My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. Yours? - 10/13/05 02:18 PM

I just have a theory on WTF sparring and O-sparring, but I'd also like yours.

In my opinion, despite the criticism, WTF style sparring and olympic sparring are both good ways to apply techniques learned. Sparring, in terms of kicks, enables the practicioner to get in good KICKING practice for a real showdown.

Maybe not punches but I think a competant WTF style sparrer or olympian would know the blocks and punches and hand strikes of TKD. Plus, sparring always provides for distance training.

Your thoughts please?
Posted by: JoelM

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. Yours? - 10/13/05 02:25 PM

I think WTF and Olympic sparring are great ways to apply techniques to be used in WTF and Olympic matches.
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 02:29 PM

The practice of sparring was invented so that people can practice fighting and combat. I believe WTF bashing happens because peopel don't understand it.

I also believe a competant sparrer in TKD will hold his own in a fight, although he might not be as wel lrounded as say, a MMA artist.

I think bashing WTF is pretty ignorant
Posted by: JoelM

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 02:36 PM

Quote:

he might not be as wel lrounded as say, a MMA artist.




I agree

Quote:


I think bashing WTF is pretty ignorant



Any bashing, of anything, is ignorant. Thought-out and knowedgable discussion of anything including the pros and cons of each side is the only logical way to discuss things.
Posted by: JasonM

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 02:37 PM

How was Joels' post bashing?
Posted by: yamig

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 03:15 PM

I think he meant bashing in general, right? Not saying that Joel was bashing...
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 03:50 PM

Yes I did mean bashin gin general. Wasn't trying to offend or criticize JoelM at all.

But I'd lik eto get some opinions now. What do you guys think. Clearly, an only TKD guy would be at a disadvantage to a martial artists who crosstrains.

However, I think that TKD sparring (even WTF style) allows practicipants to practice combatant kicks, combinations, speed, power, and distance control which would aid them in a fight. Agree anyone?

Obviously, WTF lacks punching in sparring. However, I believe that the KICKS used in WTF sparring is good practice for KICKS on the street. the KICKS (notice how im emphasizing kicks) used in sparring would also be good for real life. Anyone agree?

I do.
Posted by: oldman

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 03:58 PM

Quote:

Yes I did mean bashin gin general. Wasn't trying to offend or criticize JoelM at all.





Joel has been a student of General Gin for 26 years.
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 04:42 PM

What???


Can i get some actual thoughts and opinions please
Posted by: cxt

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 04:52 PM

TKD

"Can I get some actual thoughts and opinions please"

Ahh, dude, you got PLENTY of BOTH back on the Sword forum--in 2 different threads---which you have yet to reply too.

Why should folks waste time with you here, when you have left folks hanging all over the board?
Posted by: butterfly

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 04:55 PM

TKDF,

Let me ask you a few questions: Have you sparred anyone outside your particular discipline? What did you feel the benefits or detriments of your training were?

Did you think you handled yourself well? How were your techniques compared to your opponent's? How did you defend against a single leg or double leg take down? What about a jab, right cross combo? Did this put you off your game when you tried a high round kick? What about the clinch and any knees thrown in there?

See? Questions are questions. The proof must be sought after and recongnized by the individual. No amount of hypotheticals or anecdotal info will do you any good, because you have a personal agenda and wish to see things in a particular light.

It's all good, bro. It's what you make of it.
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 06:08 PM

Sorry but I don't really understand what you're trying to tell me.
Are you saying TKD is ineffective? WTF doesn't work at all?

I'm not trying to offend you. I just really don't understand what you're trying to tell me.
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 06:17 PM

Quote:

TKDF,

Let me ask you a few questions: Have you sparred anyone outside your particular discipline? What did you feel the benefits or detriments of your training were?

Did you think you handled yourself well? How were your techniques compared to your opponent's? How did you defend against a single leg or double leg take down? What about a jab, right cross combo? Did this put you off your game when you tried a high round kick? What about the clinch and any knees thrown in there?

See? Questions are questions. The proof must be sought after and recongnized by the individual. No amount of hypotheticals or anecdotal info will do you any good, because you have a personal agenda and wish to see things in a particular light.

It's all good, bro. It's what you make of it.




Read reeeaaallll slow.......oh and train more,post less.
Posted by: butterfly

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 06:30 PM

What I am saying is neither. What I see is your perceiving resentful remarks bashing TKD in the posts of others. That isn't what I was doing either.

What I am doing is two-fold: 1) I am trying to let you know that your large amount of questions asking about others opinions and takes on how effective TKD is are as good as me asking these questions of you; and 2) I am sincerely trying to figure out where you are coming from.

The simplest way to answer your questions is to pracice with other stylists and get a sense of what is involved. There will be no other solution, since whatever anyone tells you will be his/her subjective experience and may not be yours.

So, have you sparred others outside of your discipline to give you at least an idea of what is involved with responding to your questions about the utility of TKD? Have you had a good or bad experience?
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 06:57 PM

No I have not.

So in your opinion, do you think TKD is inferior to other standup styles?
Posted by: butterfly

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 07:04 PM

Succinct answer: No! But it depends.

-B
Posted by: SANCHIN31

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 07:06 PM

Quote:

No I have not.

So in your opinion, do you think TKD is inferior to other standup styles?




I've seen people fight and spar. I've never seen a style fight,so how can it be superior or inferior?
Posted by: blascun2k

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 08:16 PM

Quote:

Sorry but I don't really understand what you're trying to tell me.
Are you saying TKD is ineffective? WTF doesn't work at all?

I'm not trying to offend you. I just really don't understand what you're trying to tell me.






If i here one more post or comment saying TKD is not effective I think i'm going to break my own leg.....can we get to something more meaningfull? Like ....lets see, i don't know,...Whats your favorite TKD form?? And dont take this personal TKDfighter99, but EVERY SINGLE post you make seems to scream " i don't like TKD " or " TKD is not effective" Go Do Something Else if you don't like TKD, try weaving baskets,..maybe you will find that effective.

Not a bash, just irritated...i'll be quite now.
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 09:26 PM

Are... are you kidding? Can you understand english?

I've been trying to say TKD IS effective...

Wow... that is all i have to say to your post buddy... wow...
Posted by: blascun2k

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 09:37 PM

Okay, then quit bringing it up...
Posted by: Christie

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/13/05 10:39 PM

Quote:

Okay, then quit bringing it up...




over, and over, and over, and over again.... its getting entirely irritating

Every thread you (tkdfighter) have ever started has been about directly or indirectly the effectiveness of Tae Kwon Do.
Posted by: trevek

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/14/05 05:20 AM

Fighter, listen to what people are trying to tell you.

Let me give you a scenario. A WTF-TKD guy and a boxer. One is predominantly reknowned for kicking, the other for hand-strikes.

"Aha", the boxer thinks, "TKD guys can't cope with close up punching techniques (I've seen the Olympics, so I know)". What does he try to do? Close the gap and get in there. He has too cos otherwise he'll never hit the TKD guy.

Question: What does TKD guy do, does he just let him get close. If yes, it suggests he might not know about comfort zones. Ideally he would use his kicking to inflict damage at a distance. However, maybe he lets boxer get close. Boxer thinks he's onto a good thing until he is treated to a short range spinning back kick to the ribs. Ouuuch!

What are we saying here, is boxing ineffective? No, of course not. But in this instance the TKD guy knew how to counter a hand fighter.

In Chang Hon style TKD (ITF-style) we were always told, get close in on the WTF guys cos they don't know what to do. What nobody told us is that a lot of them do. having trained with some WTF guys I found this out.

That being said, in a telephone box or the edge of the ring it is hard to do a spinning reverse kick so it is better to develop your punching. As we've said a zillion times before, TKD has loads of hand/elbow strikes but they aren't often taught to the fullest extent. Other arts emphasize these things over kicking, so watching or training in these arts can give you new insights into your own TKD. It isn't a case of them being superior, they just train in a way many TKDers don't.

So, what have you got from all your posts... it aint the art its the way you train.

You're too young to be having mid-life crisis that you've wasted your life doing TKD. You've woken up (somewhere) and smelled the smell of coffee, just get out there and sample all the different types rather than asking if your brand is the best.
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/14/05 09:03 AM

yo thanks trevek. that's the kind of well-thought out answer i was looking for. appreciate it.

Even up until several months ago, I had no doubt at all. But after checking out some forums, I've heard many people insult TKD, saying how ineffective it was, how weak it was, and how it was so vulnerable to other styles. eventually it got to me so that's why ibegan questioning what i was doing.

plus, all of this ufc pridefc and k-1 insanity added on to the doubt.

i think i do now believe that all styles are equal..
Posted by: trevek

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/14/05 09:28 AM

You're welcome Fighter,

I think it is the insular nature of a lot of TKD which leads to bad comparisons. Did you get my links to Mark Weir, the TKD/MMA guy? They're on a listing further down TKD site (backing it up)
Posted by: oldman

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/14/05 09:29 AM

So, did you finally come to any conclusions? I can wait 1200 seconds if you like.
Posted by: TKDFighter89

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/14/05 09:38 AM

How do you mean? Why do you say its insular? and yes i know what the word means...
Posted by: butterfly

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/14/05 12:28 PM

Fighter,

He meant insular in the respect that many TKD schools and organizations stay within the limited bounds of their own systems. Thus, the exposure to other styles...either singularly or as a group is limited.

In some cases, the tournaments in a particular TKD system might be closed to even outside TKD participants, let alone allow for outsider stylists.

What this does is beg the question of exposure to different techniques from different styles and seems to fuel questions about the utility of TKD as practiced by some of these insular practioners.

-B
Posted by: trevek

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 10/15/05 08:13 AM

Exactly, Butterfly. I was in one assoc in UK where you needed permission to enter a non-association tournament.
Posted by: kshaun

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. Yours? - 12/01/05 11:04 AM

TKD Fighter you are absolutely right on with your theory on TKD sparring. Even though TKD Fighters use their feet in the sport application of TKD, people fail to recognize that TKD is a martial art as well. We learn the same exact things as a Karate man, Judo man, Jiu-Jitsu man and Muay Thai man. The difference is in TKD's emphasis, which is on kicking geared toward sport and effective movement for on the street. TKDoists learn elbows, low kicks, joint locks, punching(jab,cross,hooks etc.). Taekwondo sparring is simply put the same as any other combat sport. Boxing emphasis hands and only hands, Grapplers grapple, and only grapple. Every style looks like a specific set style. All boxers fight the same, all grapplers fight the same, and all muay thai fighters fight the same. In my opinion every style of martial arts is the same. The only difference is the one thing that sets them apart from each other. It just so happens that sets apart Taekwondo is kicking.
And damn good kicking I might add.
Posted by: LameDojoHater

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. Yours? - 12/04/05 01:25 AM

Quote:


And damn good kicking I might add.




Lol. Yeah. I've heard a sidekick is actually really awkward for non-TKD people to do. Yet most people in TKD can do it pretty well.

Oh and about WTF sparring...

WTF sparring is fine, just so long as it's full contact. No punches to the head isn't good for realism, but without that rule people would be a foot apart throwing punches all day long.

I prefer allowing punches to the head. Just so long as the other person doesn't spend all day a mere foot from me.

Oh and don't complain about WTF sparring TKDfighter. I have to put up with the following rules at my school.

1. No contact at all.

2. No kicks or punches to the head.

3. Only area to hit is the body.

(I hate it and I never even try to spar, since these rules make it pointless.)
Posted by: trevek

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. Yours? - 12/04/05 05:19 AM

LDH,

interested in those contact rules. Is that just for lower grades?

Do you do point-stop upto a certain grade?
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 12/04/05 07:08 AM

Quote:

1. No contact at all.

2. No kicks or punches to the head.

3. Only area to hit is the body.




Feel sorry for you man.
Posted by: trevek

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 12/04/05 09:30 AM

Seriously, it might be a condition of junior grades. That's why I asked about point stop.
Posted by: Sushi

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 12/05/05 02:03 PM

I read this discussion and I have to say, that I donīt understand where all that talking about ineffeciveneess is coming from!
I do WTF-competitions on international level now for a few years and it is one of the fastet martial arts you will find.
Just compare a kickboxre kicking, it is very slow. because he has to concentrate on feet and hands as well.
So we are not good in boxing but we are very fast in kicking.
You donīt have to talk about effectivness in self-defense. This is completely different and there are more effective styles than Taekwondo. But for Sparring and WTF-competiton it is just great.
I mean the WTF -Version the Lopezīare doing.
I never faught one of them, but it might happen some day.
Posted by: TeK9

Re: My opinion on WTF sparring and sport spar. You - 12/24/05 01:44 PM

What's up guys? I am a WTF tkd practicioner. Thats Sports tkd for all you traditionalists. I began in traditional tkd and earned my black belt 4 yrs. later I moved on to sports tkd at a new school. The emphasis on sparring over doing forms was to my liking. Remember guys people think tkd lacks hand techniques, this is incorrect, they may not stress hand strikes as say shotokan or kenpo but just about every tkd school has basic self defense and one-three step sparring. Remember when we say self defense we are not talking about sparring, we are talking about avoiding a situation or getting away from one as quickly as possible. One-three step sparring as many know are pre-determined hand and foot techniques done with a partner or partners. Pretty much the same thing done in almost every other martial arts school. Now the mere fact that when sports tkd practicioners spar with an emphasis on kicking, does not mean they cannot defend themselves in a real altercation vs a different form of martial arts. Some of you may think MMA immediatly. What you need to realize is that MMA/UFC have rules for thier kind of sparring also. Real self defense is not pretty and is limitless. Any 92 yr.old woman has the strength to poke an attacker in the eyes. The reason why she may not do it is because she lacks the propper training and confidence to defend herself. I am 28 yrs. old, I have been dropped by a 7 yr. old student of mines when she kicked me in the groin infront of my entire class. Durring one-step sparring.Embarressing yes, effective HELL YES, did I want retaliate...maybe at first, but I was even more proud of her than anything. Now when it comes down to discussing the pro's and cons of open point sparring vs olympic continuous point sparring. Both forms of sparring have benefits. Open sparring, you get to test your ability vs multiple styles, you gain tons of experiences through exposure, this is not like cross training, infact i believe you should only cross train when you have at least mastered one style, that way you can integrate your new knowledge with your basics. But if you were to just spend 2 months in tkd, 2 months in kenpo, 2 in boxing. Doesn't sound like a well rounded artist to me. Now training for olympic style tkd as certain advantages that no other MA offers. Because sport tkd has become its own unique martial art, I mean everyone a kick is a kick no matter what, but sports tkd have changed thier kicks altogether. Emphasis is no longer on power but on speed, timing and accuracy taking into account distance as well. This is something that rarely any martial art does, because the focus is more on hands. WTF tkd has created new kicks to go along wth its olympic style sparring, kicks not seen anyone where, and probably not very wel known by non tkd stylist. Infact you can pretty much take out modern tkd from the "HARD CORE" style section, because all elite athletes train and practice for avoidnace techniques, unlike the tradtional "hardcore" arts which considers every block an actual attack. This is what makes olyimpic style sparring unique, avoid attacks and counter attack during the attackers weakest point, which just happends to be during the initial attack. Thats right folks, olympic style practicioners train to counter attack before the attackers initial kicking foot hits the ground, cathing the initial attacker at his weakest. Now you must be thinking "thats great, for kicks but what about punches?" The same application and counters used for kicks can be used against punches as well. I myslef tend to watch my opponents shoulders, some people watch the eyes. I watch the shoulders because no matter if he kicks or punchers his upper torso (shoulders)must follow. Now dont get it twisted people EVERY tkd stylist knows not to throw high kicks in real life self defense this is a misconception, practicing high kicks is a good leg work out, because if you can kick high you most certainly can kick low and with more power I might add. Thats why olympic style tkd only awards points for solid kicks landed to the face or chest protector, and dismissed the light punches to the hogu. Unlike open sparring when the main attack is a back fist often lacking power almost like a "tag, your it game" I competed in a open tournament when I was a black belt in traditional tkd, I was going against a kenpo practicioner. The score was 2-2 we were tied and the next point wins. I initiated the attacker with a traditional rear leg axe kick, which can be easily countered by a sports tkd stylist with a counter roundhouse kick ^^, and ways, this kenpo stylist back up and ignored the attack, I followed up with a left rear leg round house kick at the same time he countered with a lead hand back fist. He tapped the top of my head gear making me blink, I nailed him in his stomach knocking him down and taking the wind out of his lungs. Guess who won? Although my attack seemed to me and to many others superior my opponent landed his back fist first. He was given the point while down on the ground. That was a sad, sad, sad day for me. And it just so happends that a few months later I joined the kosho ryu kempo school. And learning about the rules of open sparring I had to agree he won.

Guys I know that sports tkd lacks the emphasis that many other arts place on self defense, but this doesnt mean that it doesnt have it. Also I think everyone often over looks the new innovative kicks and counter techniques that sports tkd has to offer, judging distance and timing, modern tkd has changed the game with its new short stances, and super fast kicking combos. I mean lets look at the fancy skipping round house kick. To a novice this kick looks pretty spectaular and is ofter the first kick people try to emulate. taking a big long jumping step with your rear leg then rotating in the air to attack with your other rear leg. Sports tkd has changed this kick, many elite competitors do not jump, often they jump soly because they are countering back moving backwards and the speed of thier foot work combined with the speed of their turning lifts them off the ground. Remember you are at your weakest when you dont have your legs under you, which is why you are at your weakest when you are attacking, because one or both legs are off the ground making you unbalanced and open to attack. Hmm man I think I fell off subject somewhere along this babbling. guys I'd ove to hear from you, I'm not down for arguing, i'm down for learning and expressing opinions. I dont really like to get into all that historical martial arts crap, but if you wanna chat about techniques or styles of self defense or if you want to inform me on a specific skill that your style emphasises I'm down. Cya

"Do or do not...there is no try" -Yoda