sport tkd vs street tkd
Posted by: TKDFighter89
sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/27/05 09:44 PM
People say sport tkd users wouldn't be effective in a real fight.. but I'd like to see someone challenge an olympic medalist. A TKD olympian would own in a fight. BUT.... i do have some questions
What is the difference? Does street tkd require the use of more close range combat with more hand techniques? People say high kicks, but i have rarely seen sparring matches where the combatants have used high roundhouses. So ... what is the difference? Is that difference big?
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 03:09 AM
Fighter91, you manage some how to ask every annoying question I can think of.
Big difference? Yes, in a street fight you will get killed, whatever your training, you still have only a 50% chance of getting out alive. Ofcourse, you could make it a 100% chance- by running away.
Posted by: TKDFighter89
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 05:48 AM
Who's this fighter91? I suggest you stop being rude. I don't know any fighter91 nor have i ever been fighter91.
i was asking what i believed was a worthwhile question. but obviously you're just too damn conceited to be of any help.
Posted by: TwistingKick
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 07:05 AM
i agree, it was a completely valid question, maybe wrong place wrong post??
i would say in a self defence situation it is not usually wise to kick above belt level unless u are extremely good e.g. the olympic champ. So self defence would tend to be strikes that could get u out of danger and not leave u vulnerable e.g. knee/groin kicks and like u say more emphasis on punches
I think if u want to be able to defend urself using TKD u need to make sure u train things u might not for sport TKD, for example more emphasis on power especially in punches, than speed.
this is IMHO,
Posted by: TKDFighter89
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 07:11 AM
Thank for you help but another thing.. i agree too many ill-placed neck-head kicks would leave me vulnerable. but wouldnt stomach and chest kicks be effective and fast as well? (i think so IMO). instead of kicking knee and thigh all the time.
SO basically..... to sum it all up... the differences between sport and combat tkd is that combat tkd requires lower kicks and more and stronger hand techniques. right?
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 07:25 AM
anyone telling you TKD is inneffective in a fight has never been kicked with the force of a full grown man behind the strike. Your training is as effective as you make it out to be. Some of those flying kicks are enough to put a very large man on his butt even if he was expecting it. All the better if you train to kick without telegraphing.
If you are not training hard enough that you feel you'd put your life on it if you had to, then maybe you should train harder, find a new dojang or find a different hobby. Simple as that really. If you fight a martial art for sport and points, don't be surprised if things don't go as well as you'd like them to because the rules are no longer in place.
Posted by: TwistingKick
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 07:51 AM
i have never been in a serious self defence situation but IMHO jump/flying kicks will not work as there is no way to be non-telegraphic. i say head kicks are going to leave you vulnerable assuming u r against sum1 who is not drunk, drugged up, or a midget. i agree mid-section/ chest kicks and even head kicks could be used if the situation allows it e.g.the attacker bent over from kick to groin etc. but a situation such as this provides u the chance to run away, which i would certainly rather do than throw a head kick.
i can understand your wiewpoint but u would have to be an incredible fighter to be able to throw a head kick/jump kick at an attacker who is fully awake and has a good guard
(and connect)
p.s IMO if u throw a high kick and the attacker blitz's u with punches u will likely be off balanced. This is my take on things
Posted by: JohnL
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 09:03 AM
Quote:
People say sport tkd users wouldn't be effective in a real fight.. but I'd like to see someone challenge an olympic medalist. A TKD olympian would own in a fight.
Your question clearly exhibits a lack of understanding of both self defence and TKD.
An Olympic TKD gut is very good at what he does. That is Olympic TKD and nothing to do with self defence.
Olympic TKD does not;
Punch to the face or defend against them.
Grab
Pull around.
Throw.
Sweep.
Use weapons.
Practice mental awareness from a SD perspective.
Wrestle.
Do groundwork
Use elbows.
Use knees.
I could go on, but won't.
This is not to give Olympic TKD stylists a slagging. You just have to understand what they do and what they don't.
Posted by: matxtx
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 12:32 PM
the patterns or tuls have great self defence techniques in them.open hand strikes,knife hand strikes,knees,kicks ,low middle, high,elbows,eye strikes,forearm strikes ,,etc etc.also grabs and holds and locks and takedowns though you might need to be shown how to turn a low block into a lock or takedown for example or that a blocks also a strike for example.and stuff like that.all done with power.and abbreviated for reality.thats that side.
then theres the sport side.youd get footwork from that and distance so its needed.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 12:36 PM
Quote:
Who's this fighter91? I suggest you stop being rude. I don't know any fighter91 nor have i ever been fighter91.
i was asking what i believed was a worthwhile question. but obviously you're just too damn conceited to be of any help.
Awww man. I'm so sorry! Getting your name wrong was a daft mistake of mine and I'm sorry if you felt my post was rude- it was(again sorry!).
However, I would stand by my point that there is no way you are going to radically improve your chances in a street fight if you use TKD. One of the frequent posters on the forum, Leo, introduced me to http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/
A brilliant site which confirmed my suspicions about street fighting and MAs. The fact is that if you get into a street fight, you either deserve to get beaten up(not using your noggin!), or you're being very silly to stay around. People who get into street fights know all too well, that they don't have huge chances on a level playing field- so they'll use every cheat in the book to win. My advice- don't go there!
If you're talking about differences between "more realistic sparring types," and WTF sparring, then I would agree that low kicks are mostly the order of the day. Jump kicks and high kicks can be used, but you must only use them when there is a completely oppurtune moment- the opponent is stunned etc. I think the low side kick to the knee cap is the best kick in your TKD arsenal, since it has great range and attacks a very sensitive area.
Hope that mankes up for my earlier mistake. 
Posted by: Neko456
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 04:12 PM
Olympic TKD is like a spining top once you stop it it falls over. O-TKD vs. Kyoshinkia or Subuki guy would be KO ville for the O-TKD guy, I mean the grab, kicking, elbows (to chest) and knees, sweeps/throws and punch in close. Their use to jamming/sweeping high continous kicks.
Olympic TKD might do well against a point fighter maybe but they kick to the grion and grab kick and punch to the body & head. If it got long maybe the odds would go to the TKDr, maybe head strikes still a surprise for him.
Street TKD is another subject they hit everywhere and do more practicle techniques until they get you hurt, once staggering around they find it hard not to Jump side kick or Jump Back kick (I like this one too if the guys sliding down a wall after a good hand strike). Its just as tough as any art.
Or the Gung-fu, Capioer or Silat guy fighting from the ground O-TKD wouldn't know what to do. Now a Street TKD guy would.
Olympic TKD are conditioned athletics but only in a certain arena.
Posted by: TKDFighter89
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 05:28 PM
JohnL....
I agree Olympic TKD doesnt use ground fighting, throws, or hand techniques but the kicks used in olympic tkd would be effective ina real fight.
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/28/05 09:39 PM
A) it doesn't matter if your kicks telegraph a little bit, if you randomly kick someone on the street on a whim do you think they are going to stop you from connecting?
B) very few self defense situations will pit you against someone who knows how to stop attacks from a style they don't train in. Not to mention the kind of people who get involved in martial arts usually avoid fighting for stupid reasons in the first place.
c) all this talk about fights going to the ground, being hit with elbows, etc, it's far too involved, come on. The stiffest competition you're likely to come up against is someone slightly bigger than you that at most has a little training in boxing. Anyone who is skilled enough to beat even a novice TKD'ist and still attack someone must be so drunk or high or mentally unstable their technique is likely to be very poor as well. There is the size factor but there is not much you can do about size except hit harder and fight dirtier regardless of the art you study.. Then of course you have multiple opponents but that's something else entirely.
Can anyone even point me to a real fight where an advanced TKD practicioner was attacked by or attacked a good grappler? I have read of numerous stories where TKD practicioners knocked down some rowdy brawlers in a bar, there was a particularly famous story that came from a Korean TKD master in New York City, I believe he's the president of the rotary club in his area now.
street fights and self defence in particular are usually not some kind of slow process of observing a weakness in the opponent and then attacking at the best possible moment. The bad guy is going to attack you with almost no forewarning, whenever he wants and you will need to react. Whatever takes them down is good enough. A kick to the head, chest, whatever if it works. If you don't believe TKD will stop an attacker tell someone to kick you in the head or stomach and get back to me.
Training with points in mind is a sure way to mess yourself up if you need to use your skills in a pinch. If you're used to pulling your kicks and punches you'll very likely do it too when things hit the fan.
Posted by: JohnL
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/29/05 12:23 PM
Unfortunately that's not necessarily the case.
Olympic TKD kicks are thrown from a longer kicking distance (Due to the nature of the competition) than SD situations normally occur at.
While I have no doubt that a good MA would adapt this, the assumption that they will work is a fundamentally flawed one.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/29/05 12:26 PM
I think we are talking in cross purposes here paradoxbox. The question was about street-fighting, what you seem to be talking about is self-defence situations.
I agree that TKD can be very effective for SD, indeed I would not be doing it unless it had an element of SD in it. Now SD techniques have one purpose- giving you the oppurtunity to get away, and TKD is certainly useful for this, since you don't have to grapple or anything.
However, when you get into the area of street fighting, then the people you fight WILL know about MAs, or will be so damn tough that no amount of MA is going to help you. Street fights are for people who are not of entirely sane mind, which I expect is none of us here.
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/30/05 02:18 AM
I'm not a subscriber to the myth of 'street fighters' being so superior to everyone (including trained martial artists) that an art can be rendered inneffective.
I have no idea if you are talking about people who brawl illegally for money? Or what? People who go into bars looking for trouble maybe?
Why does it matter?
If someone is looking for trouble you can either leave, or you can strike first, strike hard and do not stop hitting them until they are no longer a threat. These people are not super humans, if you are ever 'street fighting' a guy hopped up on drugs and a strong desire to kick your a$$ you're stupid for not bugging out or shooting him or running him over with your car. If you're in so much danger that you need to fight you can strike first and they aren't going to deal with it well even if you telegraph. I stand by the assertion that if you should ever happen to come accross a 'street brawler' and you're completely forced to fight (in a non self defense situation, i.e. life or death) he's going to be a good boxer at best. Please prove me wrong but I've never encountered any evidence that would suggest otherwise, and I have looked hard for it.
If you are looking for 'street fighters', you will find them if you try hard enough. But you have to be a real jerk for them to find and attack you.
I don't know why everyone tries to make the 'street' look like some kind of 1 versus 1 sizing up fight scenario with all kinds of highly trained athletes/fighters on both sides.
All the 1vs1's I have seen (in real life and various video clips) have been a few idiots trading a couple punches and profanity.
Never encounted some magic street fighter goon who could see a TKD/Savate/Muay Thai style kick coming, let alone withstand it once it connected with his gut or other area.
If you're in a crowd that hangs around aggressive fighters who look for illegal matches with other martial artists, you're an idiot for staying there in the first place, no ifs ands or buts.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/30/05 03:02 AM
Quote:
If you are looking for 'street fighters', you will find them if you try hard enough. But you have to be a real jerk for them to find and attack you.
If you're in a crowd that hangs around aggressive fighters who look for illegal matches with other martial artists, you're an idiot for staying there in the first place, no ifs ands or buts.
My thoughts exactly.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/26/07 10:19 PM
I think much of the counters found in sports TKD can work in the street. Just as a person trains themselves to counter a punch with a variety of counter attacks. I believe a sports TKD guy will do well with a kicking counter.
As a sports TKD practitioner myself. I have trained to counter my opponents kicks. In fact much of the sport of Tae kwon do is based on attacking and counter attacking. Like boxing we wait for the right time to attack with the appropriate counter (response).
If the sports TKD fighter maintains his distance which is mid to long range he or she should do well. They merely wait for an attack and counter with an appropriate response. Usually a kick, keep in mind that a kick is 2 to 3 times more powerful than a punch and now add the fact that your using shoes, the damage should only increase. A good counter to the proper target should end the confrontation or at the very least give the sports TKD fighter time to get away.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/26/07 10:35 PM
First off, to make a statement like "an olympic medalist would own their opponent" in the street, is quite naive. I have seen phenominal competitors get their a$$e$ handed to them in the street. I have also seen them handle themselves very well, but they weren't using O TKD, they were using self defense. Tek, you once made a statement when you first came to this board that certain masters (WTF) no longer believed in the "One Strike,One Kill" philosophy (you never named who they were by the way), you said , as you mentioned above, they practice the "avoid and counter". Well, self defense is exactly the "One Strike,One Kill" (not literally of course, unless..........). Countering plays a part in SD, but the idea is, end it quickly and get out safely. If that means I have to get inside to grab, then thats what I do, If I'm keeping my distance, then the farther the better and I have no problem running away if it gets me home to my family !
VDJ
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 01:25 AM
True I did mention that many TKD master no longer abide by the one strike kill principle. Surely every attack must count and while the intent is to end the confrontation as soon as possible and best if you can do it w/o violence or with very little of it, the training method is no longer to stop on that single blow. Training is now more continuous. Before the way people sparred for practice and competition it was stop point or stop kill. The assumption that the blow delivered would end the confrontation either in actual combat or in sport was taken to literally. Everyone now has changed their view with respect to how they practice. For instance a style like Kenpo which literally has 5-10 follow up attacks from a single technique. Many call this overkill and to an extent it is, however, they are back up for the X variable which may present itself when an opponent does not respond the way you expected.
I should also make note that when referring to Olympic style and their sparring tactics used for actual self defense or fighting. The majority if not all are based on mid to long range fighting. This is where O-TKD excels in.
However, this is not to say that an O-TKD school does not teach fundamental self defense, and the basic tools for attacking such as punching, elbows, knee's and head butts.
But with response to the original question asked by the initial poster 2+ years ago. The counter tactics of O-TKD are very useful for evading and dodging attacks. Coupled with good counter attacks, counters probably not expected by the average untrained attacker.
I myself could not go into what a trained street fighter would expect or go into.
I train for self defense, and even by chance if I had to fight or get into a street fight, my goal is still and will always be self defense first. As soon as I have an opening to escape... I'm gone.
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 04:45 PM
The question also begs to be asked as to whether a sports-stylist can actually take a good body shot without the padding.
Personally, I think if the O-TKD guy is quick enough then (s)he can hit the street fighter with their medals and run away. of course if it is in London, they can show them the 2012 Olympic logo and make the street fighter vomit or curl up in helpless fits of laughter before 'owning' them.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 05:51 PM
Quote:
Personally, I think if the O-TKD guy is quick enough then (s)he can hit the street fighter with their medals and run away. of course if it is in London, they can show them the 2012 Olympic logo and make the street fighter vomit or curl up in helpless fits of laughter before 'owning' them.
Whoa! Sarcas-O-meter dangerously in the red! 
Posted by: JKogas
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 06:07 PM
Quote:
BUT.... i do have some questions
Does street tkd require the use of more close range combat with more hand techniques?
So ... what is the difference? Is that difference big?
Street TKD is practiced in a parking lot.
-John
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 06:26 PM
How many people train TKD on the street? I mean seriously, please say whether you train on the street and what street you train on.
I feel sorry that you can not afford a venue and you are forced to train outside on the street. How do you dodge all those cars?
Posted by: GriffyGriff
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 06:38 PM
Quote:
How many people train TKD on the street? I mean seriously, please say whether you train on the street and what street you train on. I feel sorry that you can not afford a venue and you are forced to train outside on the street. How do you dodge all those cars?
Timing, Footwork and a Hi-Visibility Dobuk !
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 06:40 PM
Incredible! My respect to you. I hope your reflexes remain excellent for many years to come.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/27/07 06:48 PM
I do practice it on the avenue, It's a little classier !
VDJ
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 06/28/07 04:28 AM
Pfft, I don't think any of us well dressed O-TKD stylist would fight while dressed in our 2000 Herb Perez Limited edition Olympic Gold Medal Doboks.
Posted by: practica
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/06/07 05:31 AM
The best way to train for 'street TKD' is in your normal clothes, and without mats etc. Base the encounters on realistic scenarios etc.
I've been doing TKD since 1991 and was recently on a course, I threw three kicks maximum (ovber the week) when fighting against more than one opponent and resorted to groin grabs, simulated eye gouges, bites etc.
Unless you're in a duel, you're going to resort to more instinctive and 'safe' techniques (safe to you that is).
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/06/07 09:58 AM
Yes under realistic conditions!
Posted by: practica
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/06/07 06:58 PM
Yep, get rid of the mats, wear street clothes, shout, swear and go at it. 1-on-1, 2-on-1 and 4-on-2. Use no-lie blades, shocknives (if you can afford them), BB guns, padded weapons, trip hazards, and work at a level of contact that all people are comfortable with.
Posted by: GriffyGriff
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/10/07 01:51 AM
Yes! Good Idea!
Remember to place lots of obstacles like chairs and stools.
Lower the lighting. (It heightens your awareness).
Litter the floor with cheap beer, peanuts and crushed crisps.
Ramp up the music to a deafening degree.
Bring in loads of random people to cut down the amount of space you have at your disposal.
Oh and a Disco Ball.... Got to have one of those.
Then charge 10 dollars a head.
Posted by: practica
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/10/07 07:53 AM
That's one scenario you could use, if you have the space
Another one would be to simulate an alleyway, a shop etc. You don't need LOADS of props etc, but just enough to get people in to what they're doing.
In the Women's Survival, the attacker dons very smelly clothing, washes their mouth out with whisky etc and the women are giving a jumpsuit over which they wear tearaway clothing. Add a bag of 'shopping' and you can have a very realistic scenario indeed.
Fun, fun, fuh
Posted by: oldman
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/10/07 10:20 AM
Quote:
BB guns
Bad idea...
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/10/07 11:49 AM
Don't forget the slippery kebab sauce on the ground and the enormous piece of dog-poo you'll slip on when you do a high roundhouse...
Posted by: practica
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/11/07 10:51 AM
"GASP" HIGH roundhouse? Tsk tsk.
In the case of Kebab sauce it would be jump spinning kick to wipe the sauce into their eyes
Quote:
Don't forget the slippery kebab sauce on the ground and the enormous piece of dog-poo you'll slip on when you do a high roundhouse...
Posted by: practica
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/11/07 11:08 AM
Why are they bad? They reinforce what works and what doesn't more succintly than an explanation and 'to feel is to believe'
Quote:
Quote:
BB guns
Bad idea...
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/16/07 10:41 AM
Well I came across this aticle & website. I think it fits here, but also have greater ramifications, as it is asking all MAists to rail against TKD & label it a Martial sport & not a Martial Art.
I don't know if the pupose is as stated, just to cause trouble or make money, but the writer has some strong feelings. It includes some accurate information, but is also apparent that it is a propaganda attack. I am not just sure what the motivation is. Any commnets?
http://www.taekwondotimes.net/
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/16/07 01:04 PM
ITFUnity, that article is an interesting read, but I think its argument is broad and challenging enough to warrant its own thread. is it a problem for you to start one?
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/16/07 04:50 PM
Quote:
ITFUnity, that article is an interesting read, but I think its argument is broad and challenging enough to warrant its own thread. is it a problem for you to start one?
It has its own thread over on the martial arts talk forum titled "MA Controversy"
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/16/07 07:15 PM
Quote:
Quote:
ITFUnity, that article is an interesting read, but I think its argument is broad and challenging enough to warrant its own thread. is it a problem for you to start one?
It has its own thread over on the martial arts talk forum titled "MA Controversy"
No I did, but thought the TKD members should see it as well.
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/17/07 08:41 AM
Thankyou!
Posted by: RazorFoot
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/17/07 10:09 AM
Guys, assuming that O-TKD practioners ONLY fight within O-TKD confines is a bit silly. Sport competition is one thing but a real confrontation is another. Swinging a bat on a baseball field all the time doesn't mean you couldn't crack someone's head open or break someone's knees with it if you needed to use it for self defense. A weapon is a weapon and someone who knows how to use it can adapt it to different situations when the time calls for it. Will they be as good at it as someone who swings a bat for self defense only, probably not. Will they still be able to manage to protect themself, probably so.
As far as taking a shot, pads or no pads, I have seen people split open and turned into a bloody mess but continue to fight in sport TKD, myself included. Last time I checked, the only difference between sparring in traditional karate and TKD was a chest protector. Big whoop! We don't use the same safety kicks, our feet are less protected which means the impact they give should be more substantial, yet we are soft? Please!
I have worked with and without pads, on and off the street, and my TKD translates just as well on either venue. No, I do not kick to the head in a confrontation but I will kill those legs, work to the back and get those kidneys, and if they are available, break a rib or two. It is silly to think (IMHO) that someone will fight using a sport mentality in a life and death situation.
Just my two cents.
Scottie
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/17/07 12:01 PM
Quote:
Sport competition is one thing but a real confrontation is another. Swinging a bat on a baseball field all the time doesn't mean you couldn't crack someone's head open or break someone's knees with it if you needed to use it for self defense. A weapon is a weapon and someone who knows how to use it can adapt it to different situations when the time calls for it. Will they be as good at it as someone who swings a bat for self defense only, probably not. Will they still be able to manage to protect themself, probably so. Just my two cents. Scottie
Great point!
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/18/07 11:09 AM
true, most kicks I've ever got were football kicks, not MA kicks.
The most lethal technique you have is the one which comes naturally and without thinking, whether it's a sport technique or not.
ok without reading all the posts but feeling a need to put my 2 cents in,
I don't care about what type of martial arts you know or trained in, it doesn't matter in a street fight. Now having said that let me go a little further
All martial artists if trained properly have a large advantage in a street fight. But as in all fights nothing is proven until the actual fight. I properly trained martial artist has developed muscle memory and can react without knowing they are reacting.
Real fight sequence..kicks low from the feet to the groin, and lots of running away.
I also know that a martial artist has the strength and ability to crush people with solid punches. For example my 15 year old son (black belt in TKD) can break with a hammer strike 16 inches of concrete. his goal this coming week will be 20 inches.
So he has the ability and knowlege on how to do something, but more importantly...he has the common sense not to get into a street fight.
My final point.
Most street fights are avoidable. A properly trained martial artist does not need to prove anything to a punk on the street and they should know how to avoid the fight.
So whether trained in "street" styles or not, a properly trained martial artist will hold his own in a street fight
Notice I said properly trained...not a "mcbelt factory" for tests.
That is all
Posted by: mwmanvt
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/18/07 03:16 PM
One mistake you made...there is no 'street tkd'
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/18/07 04:30 PM
OK, maybe 'avenue tkd' or 'winding country road tkd'
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 07/18/07 05:19 PM
Quote:
ok without reading all the posts but feeling a need to put my 2 cents in,
I don't care about what type of martial arts you know or trained in, it doesn't matter in a street fight. Now having said that let me go a little further
All martial artists if trained properly have a large advantage in a street fight. But as in all fights nothing is proven until the actual fight. I properly trained martial artist has developed muscle memory and can react without knowing they are reacting.
Real fight sequence..kicks low from the feet to the groin, and lots of running away.
I also know that a martial artist has the strength and ability to crush people with solid punches. For example my 15 year old son (black belt in TKD) can break with a hammer strike 16 inches of concrete. his goal this coming week will be 20 inches.
So he has the ability and knowlege on how to do something, but more importantly...he has the common sense not to get into a street fight.
My final point.
Most street fights are avoidable. A properly trained martial artist does not need to prove anything to a punk on the street and they should know how to avoid the fight.
So whether trained in "street" styles or not, a properly trained martial artist will hold his own in a street fight
Notice I said properly trained...not a "mcbelt factory" for tests.
That is all
Please do not confuse cinder patio blocks, bricks and clay tiles with concrete. I will gaurantee you he is NOT breaking concrete !
VDJ
You know, all this jumping and spinning around may be a lot of fun for a while, and you may even be good enough to lay your foot upside someone's head before he can even get his chest and lats properly inflated for intimidation mode, but what skill sets will you fall back on as you begin to truly age, and you've had a hip replacement or two (big daddy Norris comes to mind)? In my not so humble opinion, TKD has received entirely too much attention as a method of "self-defense." Street, sport, it matters very little.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/07/07 07:55 AM
TKD is much more than flashy kicks if you are studying the ART and not the sport!As you age, you adjust your techniques to your body types and limitations (no matter what art you practice, try rolling on the ground applying BJJ technique's with a bad shoulder and/or back)! I'm 45 and am very confident of my abilities. My instructor, also 45, has had a hip replacement and she is still sought after for SD tactics by local Law Enforcement!
VDJ
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/07/07 07:59 AM
Oh and BTW. Big Daddy Norris is in his mid 60's and still has some amazing kicking abilities, not to mention GM He Il Cho, also in his 60's !
VDJ
(snicker, snicker) Thought I might pull a few whiskers with that one. TKD is okay, I just haven't had much luck with the "superkick" arts in the past. Not that big a fan of BJJ either for that matter, although I did go through the standard Gracie worship phase back in the mid to late 90's. A matter of personal taste with a little self-indulgent bitterness thrown in for good measure is the fuel for my reply post. Ciao!!!
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/07/07 02:59 PM
Well,
I know this thread has moved a bit off the original topic, but I had some thoughts here. While I too wouldn't advise most people to use high kicks in SD situations, they can be used by a skilled kicker and some are very effective. Crescent kicks can be used very close quarters if practiced right and most people would never see it coming. I've seen it used in a bar in between a pool table and the wall. ( maybe 3 feet) Also, those flying kicks, while very dangerous to perform in this situation, can make a big impact on moral of a group of would be attackers. I watched a guy in a parking lot faced by 3 attackers: As they approached he side stepped and did a jump double side (both feet) into the lead man's chest. This sent him flying back a good 6 feet knocking one of his buddies over with him. After that, they decided to find someone else to mess with.
One more I didn't see but was told about, was a TKD instructor friend of mine. Again, in a bar with a pool table and multiple bully types. The story I heard from the bouncer was he jumped to the corner of the pool table, around one guy, to spring back of with flying roundhouse to the instigator (sorry if spelling sucks here ) which put him out cold. None of the others tried anything beyond that.
So, while high and flashy kicks are never my first choice for SD applications and I don't reccommend to most of my students, there are always circumstances where these techniques can be very powerful if you know how and when to use them.
I have never met ANYONE, and I mean ANYONE, that would be able, let alone suicidal enough, to try that crazed dragon of the pool hall technique you just described. Not sayin' it didn't happen, just...Hmm.
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/10/07 03:04 PM
Normally I'd be with you 100% on that statement. And your skepticism is justified. I wouldn't have believed it either except that the source I got it from is not given to random ego pumping story telling. And, I don't go to bars with this marticular guy anymore because I've seen similar ( though far less spectacular ) displays from him in person.
But, legend or truth, my statement still stands: these kicks can be used and effective if put in the correct situation, even though they are far less likely to present themselves. I have personally seen crescent kicks, spinning kicks, and even jump double kicks used in live situations and work. Though, admittadly, I didn't actually see the pool table incident. Just giving it as an extreme example of something I would never reccomend or try myself that might still be applied by someone else.
ps. In all fairness, I have seen and heard about countless things along these lines that went exaclty the opposite: disastrous. Most people can't pull those kinds of things off; and when they try, they get themselves hurt. That's why I said in my original post I don't recommend that kind of thing to my students.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/14/07 11:48 PM
If I were to kick to the head in a real altercation it would be with an inside crescent kick and not a roundhouse. The crescent kick is very sneaky.
I too have seen some of taekwondo's fancy kicks used in a school yard fight setting. Some of the guys in my college TKD class who just happen to be native Korean got into it with a couple of fellas who decided to make fun of these Korean girls. I knew these guys from class and I had interigated them a few weeks early asking all sorts of questions comparing American TKD with Korean TKD and what kind of training they do. Anyways these boys did jump kicks, spinning kicks in their fight. It was pretty amazing watching these athletes deliver kicks with power and ease. However, it wasn't all about kicks, more punches were thrown than kicks.
Typical school year fighting in college. But still it was a real eye opener to see how those who have no training react to someone who does particularly since it's not all your average tool for attacks.
Posted by: JMWcorwin
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/15/07 12:45 PM
Yeah, the guy I'm talking about was born in Korea and trained there in TKD from age 5. When I met him he was already in the states at age 27ish. So, probably close to 20 years training that way in Korea and also time in the Korean spec ops. Not many people can do that kind of thing, but that's HIS life; it's all he's known.
And I never said he did nothing but kicks, just that some people can pull them off. He's one of them. I'm not.
Posted by: VDan
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 08/15/07 09:25 PM
Most people that claim kicks "above the belt" have no place in self-defense usually can't execute them fast enough or strong enough. I am not saying I am an advocate of high kicking in most situations. However, that being said, in 2 serious altercations (1 involving multiple attackers) I have used back kicks (spin side kicks) above the belt (one to the chest and one to the nose) with great success. I believe that the focus on self-defense in TKD schools is based on the experience of the instructor and the "focus" of the school.
TKD, as original concieved, was first and foremost an art of self-defense. Things changed when offshoots arose and people started changing/modifying/adding/subtracting to the system/curriculum to the point where self-defense was totally neglected in many school.
Posted by: taekwonjohn
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/04/07 04:26 PM
Sport tkd is not complete, as show e.g. fights of Muay Thai fighters with TKD fighters. Elbows, knees are powerful.
I think when you master any kind of Art, you will do, using what you know.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/04/07 04:45 PM
Quote:
Sport tkd is not complete, as show e.g. fights of Muay Thai fighters with TKD fighters. Elbows, knees are powerful.
I think when you master any kind of Art, you will do, using what you know.
But the true ART of TKD trained as a system of SD DOES include knee & elbow strikes !
VDJ
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/10/07 11:10 PM
All different styles of martial arts practice sparring in their own way. There is no perfect way. WTF TKD has many different weapons in its arsenal for self defense just like any other style. in it's most basic form I challenge you to distinguish one style of striking from the next, same goes for grappling styles. When the gloves are off and the ring is concrete and the ref is nowhere to be seen and you are both fighting for that last Mr.Good Bar, i bet money you would not be able to distinguish a round kick from a TKD man and a thai fighter.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/11/07 06:12 PM
Quote:
All different styles of martial arts practice sparring in their own way. There is no perfect way. WTF TKD has many different weapons in its arsenal for self defense just like any other style. in it's most basic form I challenge you to distinguish one style of striking from the next, same goes for grappling styles. When the gloves are off and the ring is concrete and the ref is nowhere to be seen and you are both fighting for that last Mr.Good Bar, i bet money you would not be able to distinguish a round kick from a TKD man and a thai fighter.
Tek,
Are you responding to my post above or the thread in general ?
VDJ
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/12/07 04:38 AM
Cant be exactly sure, but i think i wrote this after reading taekwonjohn's post. I haven't been posting lately and this new system of posting takes getting used to.
I'd also like to state, that a kick in one art is a kick in any art. If you practice kicks you will be proficient with them, more proficient than someone who doesn't practice kicks. As for me all the elements of kicking came pretty easy for me. And at the beggining of my TKD journey didn't undestand why people said TKD ws so hard to learn. But having taught young children with no sense of balance and uncoordinated adults. I have come to have a whole new respect for the hard work and training put into the proper application of kicks. Which is why i for one, still would use them in self defense. Because of the great amount of time i spend practicing for them both in sport and in self defense.
Posted by: matxtx
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/12/07 01:16 PM
Yes,TKD does have elbows and knee's though they are not trained to there potential.I think thats what he meant.
Thai Boxers train and drill elbows and knee's in the best way for stand up fighting.What they do is THE way to train them.Iv never come across them being trained like THAT in TKD at any time in its history.Sure in the old days Iv seen it said they trained them alot and im sure non watered down TKD people have too but not to the potential and in all the ways Thai boxers do with the variety and using them in the clinch as well as the open position and how to counter them too etc etc.
Its common sense to just do what they do.But in TKD we sadly dont.Unless its an instuctor who has trained in Thai Boxing too.
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/12/07 02:57 PM
snore... here we go again, back on the well-trodden path...
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/12/07 06:16 PM
For the record, we do and my instructor has never trained Thai. Also, until MMA came along, I'm pretty certain that Thai Boxing rules within the U.S. did not allow elbows. I want to say I remember an interview with Alex Gong as saying that was the difference between here an Thailand!
VDJ
Posted by: matxtx
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/12/07 06:43 PM
Its not a putting TKD down.Its just a fact the Thai's train elbows and knees alot more.What they do is not in TKD .They do LOTS.Clinch work alone is an art in itself.Practicing that way is THE way.Unless a pure TKD guy goes and fights within rules where elbows and knees are aloud and develops drills based on that they wont know that stuff.Not to that depth.Sure some is done.Not to its potential though.
So take it from Thai boxing.Simple.
I dont find it boring.I hope TKD people read it and branch out go off and learn and be better for it.
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/12/07 06:49 PM
ALEX "f14" Gong, I was a huge fan of his. Sad what happen to him. And from what I heard it was both amazing and stupid the way he died.
Mattxt
Have you seen the Human Weapon series? Did you check out the episode on MT? Good stuff there. Sadly TKD wont be aired this season
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/13/07 04:26 AM
Quote:
Its not a putting TKD down.Its just a fact the Thai's train elbows and knees alot more.
...
I dont find it boring.I hope TKD people read it and branch out go off and learn and be better for it.
While I would agree that everyone can benefit from cross-training, I think that there are many reasons people train TKD and not all of them are in it for full contact sparring or self defense. If that were the case, more people would be training MT than TKD, naturally. Put someone who trains TKD in an MT class and they'll do poorly initially, but their foundation in TKD training (footwork and physical conditioning) will ultimately be a benefit to them, especially in MMA.
Posted by: BrianS
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/14/07 12:18 AM
I agree with Leo. Everyone trains for different reasons. Superiority complexes aren't needed. ( my art is better because we don't do forms and we use elbows and bla bla bla)
Happy birthday Leo!!
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/14/07 02:35 AM
matx, the subject itself isn't boring and is quite important,the thing is it pops up with the regularity of a jack-in-the-box on viagra and just ends up in the usual circular set of exchanges. Look at over half the discussions on this board and there will be 'TKD isn't complete because it isn't BJJ' or 'TKD doesn't use knees and elbows' (I know that's not exactly what you said).
Why don't we hear 'Sport TKD is more complete than boxing because it uses hands and feet' (I might be joking here!). 'Sport TKD is better for SD than archery because by the time you get your bow ready the BJJ guy will have eaten you'.
reply: 'Yeah, but if you're as good as Legolas you'd have shot 20 BJJers before they shoot in on you!'
I think the discussion here has run its course (especially when i start writing this kind of drivel).Happy Birthday Leo! Don't overdo the irn bru!
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/14/07 07:15 AM
Posted by: matxtx
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/14/07 04:52 PM
Bloody Nora ,whats going on haha.
Im just stating total common sense by saying that The Thai's drill elbows and knees more and better than is in the TKD curriculum.Thats it.
The fact the everyone is taking it other ways and getting defensive is more those peoples problem.
Its a shame how defensive TKD gets.In my opinion it is its downfall.It saddens me.
Also its funny as I have just got back from my TKD session!Yes, TKD is my base martial art!I just look outside too.So there is non of that anti-TKD malarky going on here.
Your right,people should do it for there own reasons.Though this is a thread on self defence so they should be in the political posts or the fitness posts or something.
That is also the double edge sword.Tkd was developed to be self defence.Thats why people SHOULD train in it.Though its popular standing and all THE MCdojos have come about because people train for these 'other' reasons and want it easy.Rather than the reality ,which is that its hard ,solid,good training that will give you the best chance of surviving a violent assault.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/14/07 05:57 PM
Its a shame how defensive TKD gets.In my opinion it is its downfall.It saddens me.
First off many of us here ARE advocates of cross training and have stated so many times. The defense of our art is NOT what has been the downfall. No other art is attacked and critisized as much as TKD, the downfall has been its inclusion as an olympic sport, making those of who practice the ART defensive as we are all painted with the same brush. Train with their hands down, don't use knees and elbows, no ground technique and so on and so on! I am not saying that TKD is the be all end all art, but no art is fully complete, hence the need for cross training!
VDJ
Posted by: BrianS
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/14/07 06:31 PM
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/18/07 06:19 AM
Not just Olympic sport, but a sport period. Olympic style sparring as a way to practice is not bad, it's a good way for a person to enhance their kicks, like boxing is a good way to enhance your punching ability. But the emphasis on sport techniques and competition strategy over practical self defense and reality combat. That in my opinion is why TKD suffers.
But this isn't anything new, we all know this. Some people however, seem to forget it and think what they see in the Olympics is all TKD has to offer.
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/18/07 07:48 AM
Quote:
Some people... think what they see in the Olympics is all TKD has to offer
You mean it isn't?
You mean... my knees and elbows have a place in TKD?
Oh my word! you mean I DON'T have to study Muay Thai?
Posted by: TeK9
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/19/07 03:26 AM
Trevek are you kidding, why would you want to study a sport like MT, they dont even allow eye gouges and groin kicks. What are you gonna do with MT if your ever attacked in the street, get close enough to low kick someone on the thigh and rink injuring yourself. NO way not me...
I'm going over to Krav Maga were they allow eye gouging, groin kicks and hair pulling.
Not a girlie restrictive sport like MT. no thx
Posted by: trevek
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/19/07 07:18 AM
TeK, admit it, shiny shorts aren't your thing... you've got a thing for Israeli uniforms, haven't you.
I've sussed the way to beat a Thai Boxer in the street, you wait until he's doing his war-dance and then change the music for techno.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 09/19/07 04:55 PM
An TKD olympian would definately own in a fight--provided his or her opponent agreed not to catch any kicks, wrestle, or punch to the face. But since when do thinghs like that happen in real fights?
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 05:03 PM
flyboy the more you post the more uninformed I see you realy are. Its sad because you are doing much harm to taekwondo with your inaccurate assumptions of WTF and what it is about. Yes it is an olympic sport but we also train for realistic situations most of us use the olympic sparing methods only as a training tool to perfect our kicking skills and nothing more.Do you realy think that most WTF people think they are going to the olympics? I explained this to you on the human weapon fourm in more detail yesterday you haven't read it though. Are you that ignorant that you believe these fighters don:t know the difference between sparing and fighting? You should do everyone a favor and tone your rhetoric down until you know what you are talking about. I am to the point that I feel I must follow you and others around the fourm and educate you on WTF so this nonscence will not be absorbed by others unfamiliar with WTF practices. Very frustrating I am sure you are very good at what you do but I can asure you that many WTF people would hand it to you real or not real.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 06:32 PM
von1,
I appreciate your passion for the art, but I think that you too must tone your responses down a tad as well. You are speaking to people on this board who have trained MANY years in the art, whether it be WTF or ITF (and for keeping it simple, that is how I will address them even though they are the orgs and not the styles), and have formed their opinions of what the art is. Now, I can tell you, as I have mentioned many times here on this board and most recently in response to one of your posts, I have traveled significantly thru out the USA (and these are the schools to which I am referring, no other country), and the WTF schools MOST DEFINITELY put an emphasis on the sporting aspect over the SD aspect, and the punching lacked seriously thruout the class and a good portion of these schools were Korean owned.
Now as in all cases, there are always two sides to the same coin as I have come across some very good WTF schools, but for the most part I have found ITF schools to be much more SD oriented. I would ask that you pay attention on how you are addressing people by telling them that you feel the need to "Educate" them on WTF just because they don't share your opinions. It is also hard to take seriously being educated by someone whose spelling needs assistance (don't mean it as an insult, especially if english isn't your first language, but guy, it makes it hard to follow what you're saying when the words are mispelled so frequently). Now I know that you said you have been visiting the board for about a year and have just recently decided to start posting and we welcome that. BUT, to most of us, you are considered a "newbie" and when you start talking to people who have been posting for a long time in a condescending tone, that will just bring on ridicule toward yourself and possibly get you banned. So with all that said, welcome and enjoy yourself.
VDJ
P.S. It's FILEBOY not FLYBOY
Posted by: TKD_X
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 06:44 PM
I personally like schools that teach practical striking, hap ki do and similar techniques, as well as close quarters fighting. To help my knowledge, have there been any docmented fights between olympic tae kwon do guys and well rounded "street taekwondo" guys?
Posted by: flynch
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 07:58 PM
I like to focus on power. I like to focus on a limited number of techniques that I feel are effective and that I can deliver with power. The kind of power that can knock somebody out or at least put them back on thier heels.
Posted by: TKD-Skippi
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 08:07 PM
I like to keep it simple to. Those flying spinning kicks would do some damage if you were hit by one though. even if somone did train heavly in sport TKD they would be able to do you an injury...no one ever says Boxing is a waste of time even htough its a sport form of an old fighting art...pugilism (sp?) i think it was called.
Posted by: StuartA
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 08:08 PM
Quote:
I personally like schools that teach practical striking, hap ki do and similar techniques, as well as close quarters fighting. To help my knowledge, have there been any docmented fights between olympic tae kwon do guys and well rounded "street taekwondo" guys?
Theres undocumented stuff on when the NK TKD crew visited Seoul for there demo in 2004 (!). apparently, on the grapevine they match some WTF Olympic champs against some of the NK lot.. the outcome I wont comment on because without proof its heresay, but on eSouth Korean official simply said "WTF TKD for sport, NK TKD for killing!
Stuart
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/05/08 09:55 PM
VDJ
Agree, I should tone it down . Also agree my spelling is not up to par, the real problem is my typing, takes me so long I don"t care about my spelling. Just because someone has been posting a long time shouldn't give them the right to be condescending to other organizations or art forms. Like I said I have been monitoring many of these postings a long time and can identify many who are posting damaging information. I have not always agreed with you but at least you state most of your opinions without being too arrogant about it. I can respect a difference of opinion if one is not condescending. As far as being banned I really don"t think I have said anything that would justify that. In the future I will try to be more diplomatic with my responses. Guess I hovered too long and let things build up to the point that my own postings are out of character. And to Fileboy I apologize to you for a second time and hope to have good conversation in the future. To accomplish this we both will need to work on our deliveries. My addressing you as fly-boy was a legitimate mistake not an attempt to belittle you.
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/06/08 12:00 AM
Quote:
Theres undocumented stuff on when the NK TKD crew visited Seoul for there demo in 2004 (!). apparently, on the grapevine they match some WTF Olympic champs against some of the NK lot.. the outcome I wont comment on because without proof its heresay, but on eSouth Korean official simply said "WTF TKD for sport, NK TKD for killing! Stuart
Yes I have heard those same rumors. But would like to clarify that NK TKD is ITF TKD. That is the style of TKD that is taught there, from grade schools all the way up.
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/06/08 12:09 AM
Quote:
flyboy the more you post the more uninformed I see you realy are. Its sad because you are doing much harm to taekwondo with your inaccurate assumptions of WTF and what it is about. I am to the point that I feel I must follow you and others around the fourm and educate you on WTF so this nonscence will not be absorbed by others unfamiliar with WTF practices. Very frustrating I am sure you are very good at what you do but I can asure you that many WTF people would hand it to you real or not real.
Von1:
Welcome to the forum. As you knwo by now I am a long time & fervent ITF student. Now you say that you are WTF. May I ask what is the WTF?
It is not a style. It does not have a common syllabus. There is no standardization of technique or training methods. They do not even have the same patterns. Some WTF schools do the old karate forms, some do the palgue, others taeguk, while some even do the ITF Tuls. I also see that they are coming out with new patterns as well.
So what does it mean to be WTF?
The WTF is simply a sports governing body, resonsible for regulating Olympic TKD, nothing eles. So in a sense, the only thing WTF schools have in common is the sparring rules for tournaments,
Now please do not take this as an attack. It is not. I have seen my share of bad ITF schools & many that do not follow our standard syllabus as fully as they should. I have also seen ITF TKD McDoJangs as well.
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/06/08 07:55 AM
"Just because someone has been posting a long time shouldn't give them the right to be condescending to other organizations or art forms."
Agreed !
VDJ
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/06/08 01:53 PM
You don't mean me do you? I didn't think I was. Sorry if it was seen that way. Please point me to it & I will do my best to explain &/or apologize.
Posted by: flynch
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/06/08 02:32 PM
Yes it is an important point to mention those in North Korea practice ITF style Tae Kwon Do which is truely Korea and originaled in South Korea. (More properly Korea)
Posted by: VDJ
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/06/08 03:29 PM
Quote:
You don't mean me do you? I didn't think I was. Sorry if it was seen that way. Please point me to it & I will do my best to explain &/or apologize.
No I wasn't referring to you. I was just agreeing in general terms, though it maybe possible Von was referring to fileboy.
VDJ
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/07/08 01:32 AM
Okay
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 02/07/08 01:34 AM
Quote:
Yes it is an important point to mention those in North Korea practice ITF style Tae Kwon Do which is truely Korea and originaled in South Korea. (More properly Korea)
Yes I find it fascinating that they, NK totally embraced a SK military fighting system that was devised by an enemy general, among others & now do it so well & are instrumental in spreading it further around the world. Another example of what the founder meant by building a more peaceful world!
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/23/08 12:12 PM
quote
Theres undocumented stuff on when the NK TKD crew visited Seoul for there demo in 2004 (!). apparently, on the grapevine they match some WTF Olympic champs against some of the NK lot.. the outcome I wont comment on because without proof its heresay, but on eSouth Korean official simply said "WTF TKD for sport, NK TKD for killing!
Stuart end quote
Geeeeeeer,
More ridiculous propaganda.
If one was speaking of a competition between NK TKD against a sport only student competitors I could see this happening, (maybe not a given) but frankly I personally have not witnessed any of these schools that teach only sport competition and no SD. I believe they exist but are not common as people let on. One would see them more often especially those of us that compete against them.
What if the same fighting took place between an ITF demonstration team and a NK fighting team, out come would be the same, fighting team 1 kill, demo team gets the oscer, one must compare apples to apples.
The point is that 99% of wtf schools train SD along with sport. I have no doubt that any WTF organization would hold it"s own against any ITF organization fighting under ITF or WTF rules, or in the street. The same applies in reverse. There is not the difference that some people wish to believe and wrongly advocate and insinuate. I can say this with confidence because I have trained in both systems. I can not wait for the day when the two organization are more cooperative and do competitions against each other, then every one will witness that there really is no difference and it will always boil down to individual talent not a particular style. There will be ITF competitors that get soundly beaten in there own back yards by WTF fighters, and there will be WTF fighters that will be soundly beaten in their houses too, sorry thats just the way it is but I feel a duty to confront this sort of propaganda because it promotes ill will and ignorance.
Posted by: Fruitloopy
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/23/08 02:16 PM
Quote:
More ridiculous propaganda.
Absolutely. I fully agree with this statement as somebody who has been involved in both "ITF" and "WTF" "styles" for many years. What is taught to the student really depends on the individual school and instructor not so much a federation. I have seen good and bad in both Organizations. As far as SD goes I believe most martial art schools are missing the point when it comes to instruction on the topic, not a atyle thing but an inductry thing!
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/23/08 02:44 PM
As far as SD goes I believe most martial art schools are missing the point when it comes to instruction on the topic, not a atyle thing but an inductry thing!
Dido
Nice to here from you.
Posted by: ITFunity
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/24/08 01:23 AM
Quote:
Quote:
More ridiculous propaganda.
Absolutely. I fully agree with this statement as somebody who has been involved in both "ITF" and "WTF" "styles" for many years. What is taught to the student really depends on the individual school and instructor not so much a federation. I have seen good and bad in both Organizations. As far as SD goes I believe most martial art schools are missing the point when it comes to instruction on the topic, not a atyle thing but an inductry thing!
Yes of course, no doubt about it & no agruement here. However the missing piece that few may be considering is not so much the ITF - WTF battle, but rather these players from the north are identified early on. The talented ones are taken in, train as their job, for their leader & these tuff hungry students eat well & live better than most others in the country. If they do not perform, they go back to where they came from, which is not such a nice place to be. JMHO
If you look at the history of fighters in general, boxers specifically, the toughest always seem to come from the down the soci-economic scale.
Posted by: mangoman
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/24/08 12:36 PM
My daughter's school teaches only sport TKD, no forms, no self defense, no bowing to any "superior intellect" or stupid symbols. She show's up. She puts on her gear. She practices Olympic Style TKD. A couple hours later she takes off her gear and goes home. She repeats the next day.
Could she hold her own in a street fight. Hopefully we will never find out. Should the situation happen, she has clear instructions to not even bother with trying her TKD skills. Kick to the crotch, bite, spit, scratch, pi$$ on, throw dirt in the eyes, scream, what ever it takes to get a few feet of distance from the bad guy(s) and at your first opportunity, run like hell to the nearest person for assistance.
Any of you clowns that think that your (insert martial arts skill here) will save your ass in a street fight so you go out trying to find one needs to know that there is always someone out there that knows more or doesn't play by your same rules.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/24/08 01:24 PM
A little bit of anger there mangoman however I will give you my opinion for what it is worth.
It sounds like you understand that your school is only about sport sparring and there is nothing wrong with that ... not what so ever. Many children/teens/adults join sports to compete and that is what sport sparring is. If you school doesn't sugar coat it and tell the students they are learning self defense then I see no problem.
Now I want to state for the record, unless you train to fight and unless you test those skills through competition then you won't have a clue of what a real fight can entail and even as a trained martial artist you may meet somebody tougher, you may meet somebody equally as skilled, you may have an emotional dump or a multitude of many other things happen that your training won't help you one bit.
Completion is the safest way to test your skills and getting used to the resistance of a person trying to win. This isn't street fighting as you have rules and you have a ref to step in however this is the closest you will get to actually fighting. I've been told this time and time again and I have found this out for myself as well through personal experience.
Remember, knowing a martial art doesn't make you a fighter. You may know more then the average person but being able to use that is a whole different thing. Without resistance training and testing of these skills then you truly haven't explored enough to be as effective as you could be. And just because you martial arts train doesn't mean you won't have your butt handed to you but somebody with no skill.
When it comes to the streets and especially in todays age, get out of there as soon as possible without fighting if possible. Do what is necessary as required and trust me, it won't look pretty even if you are trained. If the school your daughter is in explains it like you said then that is all good in my books.
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/24/08 02:52 PM
Quote:
Any of you clowns that think that your (insert martial arts skill here) will save your ass in a street fight so you go out trying to find one needs to know that there is always someone out there that knows more or doesn't play by your same rules.
Hey!
that is not nice you are cheating and not playing by the discussion rules.
You are street talking and I did not train for this!
Posted by: Supremor
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/24/08 03:15 PM
Quote:
Any of you clowns that think that your (insert martial arts skill here) will save your ass in a street fight so you go out trying to find one needs to know that there is always someone out there that knows more or doesn't play by your same rules.
I think you have misunderstood the aim of a SD based martial art. The goal is not to become a match for the toughest guys in the world- that is to say, who goes to a basketball club expecting to be able to beat NBA players? The hope of MAists who train this way is to raise the odds somewhat should they ever get into such a situation.
Now, personally I think it would be folly to argue that any skill will gaurantee success in something. Your daughter may train all day every day, but one day she may well compete against someone in competition that beats her. Likewise, one can train hard for self defense, but there are some things you just can't deal with- the advantage of SD is that such situations are much rarer, and there is plenty of chance to de-escalate the violence and walk away- all skills that a martial artists training for SD will learn.
Posted by: dicen
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/25/08 12:05 PM
Self defense does not equal fighting plain and simple. You want to learn how to fight join the military where they show you how to kill. Self defense is that one split second where the agressor, who thinks you're weak, trys to surprise you with an attack. SD martial arts are geared to react to that initial action and counter immediately. If the SD martial artist isn't able to end the situation at that moment then it becomes a fight and thats an entirely different animal because now the agressor now knows what you're capable of.
A sports TKD practitioner will have the same chance as a sports boxer, they're both trained to react to a person coming at them. Furthermore since the TKD practioner has the advantage of attacking of ending the fight before the other guy can close distance and make it a ruff and tumble fight.
Posted by: Huhmasta
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/27/08 09:23 PM
Listen TKDFighter89, I don't think I can agree with you on an olympic medalist surviving a street fight. I mean unless he was also taught self defense portion of tae kwon do, then he's pretty much dead. If he only knew sport tae kwon do, I guess he would have the upper hand in terms of striking and against one on one. But self defense requires SOO much more than just one on one combat and striking. He would probably die if the attacker had a gun, a knife, came with 5 guys, etc.
Posted by: Novum
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/28/08 02:21 AM
Lucky for all of us that learning martial arts also includes learning discipline and responsibility for your own actions. Kind of like the same discipline and responsibility that people use to avoid violence by staying aware, keeping your ego in check, and looking out for the best interests of the people who depend on your continued health. I'd wager that this hypothetical olympic tae kwon do fighter would have the good sense and judgment to know that his kids can't eat if he's too maimed or dead to put food on their table. Peace is the truth behind martial arts as far as I'm concerned. Someone correct me if I'm out of line in saying so.
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/28/08 08:54 AM
quote
He would probably die if the attacker had a gun, a knife, came with 5 guys, etc.
end quote
silly, silly, siiiiilly statement!
And so would you!
and anyone else, unless there is a good amount of luck involved, I don"t give a crap how good one thinks they are or what type of martial arts one practices. This is not the movies. Yes, if you were to luck out and get some duff-us holding the gun/knife one could possibly defend, probably not unscathed though, I hope I never have to find out, by the way hahmasta, most every WTF affiliated school trains SD as you do so don"t kid yourself about sport fighters, their chances of surviving are as good as any one who trains TKD.
ooops, replied to the wrong person, my reply is to hahmasta"s post.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/28/08 11:36 AM
I was going to submit something similar Von but you beat me to it. Totally agree.
I do agree that those that only train sport are missing out on a lot of good information however those that do train sport understand distance, movements of their opponent, have great cardio and can attack and avoid quickly. Plus competition is a great means of testing yourself under pressure and understand being hit ... those are great benefits and "can" give them an edge over unskilled and unsuspecting assailants. But as Von pointed out, these people are most likely getting self defense training as well that increases their chances on the street.
In my opinion those that train self defense and also train to compete are farther ahead in the game then those that only train self defense. Those that only train self defense and don't test those skills will never understand the pressure or the skill needed to deal with somebody trying to defeat them.
Posted by: von1
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/28/08 03:46 PM
quote
In my opinion those that train self defense and also train to compete are farther ahead in the game then those that only train self defense. Those that only train self defense and don't test those skills will never understand the pressure or the skill needed to deal with somebody trying to defeat them.
end quote
Bingo!
And that does not mean straining against the same old people you train with day in and day out, it means testing your skills against the unknown under stress.
Posted by: Dereck
Re: sport tkd vs street tkd - 03/28/08 04:54 PM
Exactly.
. I Agree with you my friend. Although the real reason i came on...
