TKD poll

I'm going to agree with you on this one Sanchin. I would never use the "x block", or upward cross block in such a situation. AKK actually has a technique that uses it for defending a stick attack, but I don't like it. Too easy to screw up, especially under that kind of stress, and we have so many other techniques that counter against the same type of attack.

Palgue sport poomsae? I have to disagree with you on that one. The Palgue forms were introduced before Tae Kwon Do ever became part of the Olympic movement. Perhaps you are thinking of the Tae Geuk forms.
The Palgue forms are much more traditional and focus on basic techniques. They are surely not designed to earn points.

I thought the "Chonji" forms were the traditionally oriented ITF being originally established by General Choi Hong Hi.

This will clear up alot of misconception:
http://www.tkdtutor.com/02Taekwondo/TKDHistory/15TaditionalSport.htm

Kintama, I'm new to this board, and I live in Massachusetts as well. What area are you in? I live in New Bedford. There are two Taekwondo schools in the city. One is Kwon's TKD. They are definetly a Mcdojang. Fancy jumping kicks, 2 years for BB, "tea ceremonys" that kind of stuff. The other Tkd school is the one I attend. Gonsalves Tkd. We teach very practical techniques, low kicks, punching is considered just as important as kicking, we have joint locks, takedowns, its actually alot of Hapkido mixed in. Our founder is Master Joseph Gonsalves, I don't know if you've heard of him.

I'm in Western Mass. but I'm familiar with the NBedford area. I'm not familiar to TKD other than what I've seen watching classes, demos and competition stuff. so your area is a 50/50 chance then lol
I'm looking into TKD only to find out what went wrong with it. or, I should say, why the sport dojangs are advertising to the public as Self-defence. The non-sport dojangs seem to have the same ratio as Karate when it comes to mcdojo vs self-defense.
So, my conservative estimate is about 3 out of 4 US TKD dojangs are false advertising. They can't be designed for martial sport and claim self-defense. It's wrong and people are getting ripped off.

I completely agree with you. Tkd seems to have a bad reputation in the serious martial arts world. I've gone to watch demo's of some Tkd schools, as well as the other one in my city. Most schools there demo's contain things such as 720 spinning kicks, back flips, hand stands into kicks, it doesn't look like a martial art at all. I've talked online to many people who practice martial arts such as Goju Ryu, or Kenpo, etc. All of them immedietly assume I know nothing about real fighting when I say I do Tkd. That isn't true. There are still Tkd schools in the world that teach an actual martial art. The main philosophy behind what my school teaches is to keep your opponent away using kicks waist level and below, and if he moves in to use your hands, elbows, etc. We also teach takedowns, joint locks, how to escape from joint locks, as well as a few ground techniques when you reach red belt. I think we teach a pretty practical well balanced system. I mean, sure we do some point sparring too, but thats just for fun, its not our main goal. As for fancy high flying kicks, we dont do them. Although I will say, we open our demos with a black belt doing a jump side kick over 4 chairs breaking boards. However, that just seems to get everyones attention to come watch us.

Hmm, am I just ignorant or are McDojo's quite rare in my area?
I'm taking Taekwondo classes where the owner (and half the time teacher) is a 6th dan black belt Korean of about 50 years old approved by WTF and he's a coach of the national competiting team. The club has several affiliations in the area. A BB is obtained in about 3.5-4 years.
Is this a McDojo? If it is all the clubs in my area are McDojos, if it isn't none are.

Foundation, I don't think it sounds like a McDojo ... and to be honest who really cares if a person goes to a McDojo or not?

I had a similar discussion with my instructor and others on Saturday. He's heard it all before and knows that the WTF takes a bad rap and at one time he considered changing the name to Martial Arts as we are a blend of Taekwondo, Hapkito and Jujitsu. But then he thought why as he was proud of what he is and does and decided against changing it.

He even expressed his opinion on McDojo's. I can't remember it word for word but he basically said if people join up, learn something and come away with a good attitude then it is all okay. If everybody had a good attitude then the world would be a better place. Is that really bad?

I've known that my instructor was trained Taekwondo and Hapkito as one. I always assumed that he trained/trains Jujitsu as a black belt and brought this to our school to add to our training. After further discussions on Saturday he told me this wasn't the case. His Master taught it all and the reason he got his black belt in Jujitsu was more for business purposes as people want to see that a person has a black belt in an art before they will believe that they can teach it.

When training in Jujitsu, Kickboxing and Muay Thai he wasn't given much respect from those teaching once they heard he was from Taekwondo. But after he easily proved his skills he definitely earned it. This all boils down to his instruction from his Master. And his Master ... and others out there ... teach a complete system that covers punching, kicking, throwing, sweeping, grappling, etc. They are out there you just have to look for them.

Who cares if Taekwondo gets a bad name ...especially WTF. Not all schools are the same ... and the same can be said for any other art. Just be proud of who you are and what you are taking. You live your life for you ... not because of what others say. I would challenge any of these people who bash Taekwondo to come to my school and others. They would change their minds quickly.

not necessarily. Remember, a mcdojo is all about money. A bad dojo is all about Ego.
McDojos are bad because they sell ego, and not the SD skills as advertised.
Bad dojos could have honest non-money hungry intentions but just don't have a clue and don't even try to get a clue about SD. usually, the sensei are content with the knowledge they have without trying to further their skills. (e.g. a lazy dojo)
If you are studying a style designed for sport and you are training for and doing competitions and the sensei is honest about SD non-effectiveness... it's cool and everyone is happy. If a dojo trains for sport and advertises self-defense...that isn't cool. people will take that for years before finding out that the sport they studied does not translate into SD training. Hopefully, they don't find out the hard way when they try doing head kicks to someone with a knife.
I assume people would react differently when they find out they have been studying neither 'traditional' nor practical self-defense. correct me if I'm wrong, because this is just an educated guess:
People that find out their dojo is non-self defense effective have the following reaction...
Some defend their dojo reguardless due to pride or loyalty. (probably most common)
Some will bring the topic up with their sensei who will convince them that after more years of training they WILL be able to use the training in SD situations.
Some quit and never take another MA.
Some quit and search harder for a good dojo.
Some continue anyway because they like the sport aspect.
Some continue anyway with the goal of opening their own business (dojo) someday.
Some refuse to look at how other styles train in fear they might not like what they will realize. (again, pride and loyalty)

Here is where the grey line is, and it's where many people feel justified calling their sport as self-defense: SOME techniques in sport are transferable to SD. If you get really good at throwing punches and kicks for competition it's alot better than nothing for SD right? Thats right, but you have to be aware of which techniques and when they are appropriate so you don't end up making the SD situation worse. In SD situations for example, spinning attacks are not a good idea...turning your back period is never a good idea. you might be all that in competition but I guarentee you are going down if you try a spin kick in a bar fight.

Anyway, my motivation is not bashing...it's to inform and provoke questions enough for you to do your own research to really be honest and ask yourself if what you are learning is what you intended to learn. Lots of junk and sheisters out there... cavet empor, let the buyer beware.

Take care and keep your eyes and minds open.

I dont think theres any more bogus TKD schools than there are in any other MA. Ive seen many bogus Karate schools, Jujutsu schools, hell, even ninjutsu schools.If your spending months in a MA and your not getting good at your art then mayby its you.An idiot master could train a prodigy easily, and a grand master who taught his whole life could teach the worst practitioner of an art ever.I think the problem is most people get in the habit of judging every college,school,dojo, etc in comparison to theyre own.Some schools may have more focus in different areas and prices may vary...but i think your gona have a hard time not learning an art if your dedicated no matter what unless of course your training litterly consists of watching kung fu movies and eating cheeseburgers.

Heh, yea tkd in my area is about 75% mcdojo to actual ma. My dojang focuses on self defense aspects of the techniques. We practice the practical kicks, none of this acrobatic 720 kicks. We do participate in tourneys bout our view is ma and defense first and then tourney. Personally i think that forms are worthless but thats just me.

I stand corrected. It was indeed Tae Guek that I did, but I think it existed BEFORE Palgue was introduced. Mind you, this was 25+ years ago and my memory is somewhat faulty at this point (u know, old age and everything).

I was learning palgue forms before there was a wtf. I believe that taeguk was made by and for wtf. Any oldsters learn taeguk before 73?

The Palgue forms were introduced before the Taegeuk forms. The Palgue forms were developed by the KTA to standardize the forms that everyone practiced. Previously, several different forms sets were used by by the different Kwans. The Taegeuk forms came later in an attempt to make the forms more "Korean".

To everyone. How many TKD schools are in your area? How many are mcdojo's?

If you want to define area as being anything I can drive to within four hours, there's at least a dozen. Any of the ones I had contact with have shown no real signs of mcdojoism, except maybe the teachers wearing an expensive uniform.

The only one I could say for sure was a mcdojo closed down within a few years of it opening, it just couldn't compete in the atmosphere up here.

Well I do ITF, great fun, hard work and certainly not a mcDojo. Tae Kwon Do is bound to have many more McDojos I think, because it is the most popular martial art in the west, or at least it has the most practitioners. I think alot of instructors just use the name Tae kwon do in order to give people some idea of what they teach.

My advice is to evaluate Dojos on their affiliation with national organisations and on how old their instructor is. I hope this causes no offense, but I don't believe a person with under 12 years of experience is good enough to teach others as though they were an expert. I mean, it take 4 odd years to get a black belt, and another 2-3 years for a 2nd Dan.

Ofcourse this is just my very subjective opinion. I have only a limited experience of Dojos, having stayed in the same area since I started. I am also English, and no little of what America is like for dojos.

Gemini, are you trying to convince us or yourself? It is what it is, and people do what they do ...and all those zen-like justification phrases. lol kidding. seriously though, you can't explain away the fact that I can go to any random town in the US and within a 10 mile radius have a 1 in 4 chance of locating a TKD school that puts form over money and function over form.

ummmm... 1 in 4 implies 3/4 which is 75%.

so, you agree with a 75% figure, but 70% is out of the question?

I'm too harsh sometimes, I know this. I'm working on it.

Kintama and Gemini and Eyrie,

I think you hit on a lot of it. The problem you will note is that most people in McDojos may not recognize that they are in one.

You have to remember a couple of things, that because of the ubiquitousness of TKD, the real dojangs are left to be looked at among a lot of chaff. Because TKD is so very available, it is in some locations that are not accessible by other MAs simply because there are none. This might make you guffaw, but think about it this way: Since someone has been training at these multitudes of McDojangs, there is a greater likelyhood that one of these guys would start a class at a YMCA in a town of 10,000 people as opposed to a smaller, legitimate dojo being there. Therefore you might have a 3rd degree BB with 5 years experience (who probably thinks it is normal for 5 yrs to equal a 3rd degree) who opens up shop and regains connections to his old organization and starts to push out ignorant BBs for bucks.

Then there is that question of money. With rare exception, I have seen most good schools sort of feed on themselves where, when money is tight, the instructor chips in. This way, there is no compromise in promotion testing or money to be made by selling overpriced patches and instructor signed doohickey's, or any other dojo scams. Now, as other's pointed out money is not the question (the most expensive schools, in my opinion these days...for popularity or utilility, are BJJ classes), however....as noted previously when money becomes the sole selling point of the art, something has to give. And I will give the nod to BJJ practioners....all that I have met have earned their belts...and do not pay for testing for them.

So this is what you have for the availability of the McDojo/McDojang: 1)Ignorance of the consumer- which then continues on as students become instructors teaching the same compartmentalized techniques; 2) The quest for money so that more people are paying for less....and are satisfied with it; and 3) The use of organizations as barbed wire ties that keep insiders in and outsiders out...thus limiting exposure to what is being taught elsewhere that might pique curiositiy or awareness.

You wrap all three of these things up and you get a McDojang that increases in size and keeps aligning itself in ways to pay for itself and increase membership. In this easy come world, that means promising blackbelts in one to two years, a school that tests often and which may increase the number of belts with stripes for futher subdividing what is taught all in an effort to increase requisite testing fees associated with this policy.

Now this problem is not only with TKD, again as noted above, but with it's overwhelming presence how can they all be good and survive and not be McDojos? This was a question that was given to me by the owner of one McDojo that I visited.

In that school I saw on BB who had just received it kicking a bag. He looked horrible and when I asked how long it took...one year was the answer. After I had practiced with these folks for my free invitational class and told them I had previous experience per a question directed to me.

The owner who did not show any technqiue said, if he didn't promote he would have "no business." If the MAs to you are only a business that is exactly what the student will receive....and think what all MAs are.

-B

I was once shown by a JKD instructor why you should never use an overhead x-block or even a raising block to block a knife (unless you really have no other choice). The knife hand is liable to slide down and slice the arm or wrist of the defender. No tendons; no chance.