TKD DOES NOT HAVE EVERY HAND STRIKE IN KARATE

this is not saying that TKD is crap and it is not saying that Karate is the best.

i am just so sick and tired of TKD practitioners saying that TKD has every hand move that Karate has. i guess this depends on the Karate style, but in Kyokushin TKD does not have all the arm moves that we have.

these are all of the hand positions that we use in Kyokushin and how many DIFFERENT strikes each of the position has

- seiken ( front fist, normal fist )
- uraken ( back fist , has 4 different moves for it)
-tettsui ( hammer fist, has 5 different moves for this position)
-haisho ( back of hand, 3 different moves)
- haito ( inner knife hand, has 3 different moves)
- shotei ( the palm )
- hiraken ( flat fist, has 2 different strikes)
-shuto (knife hand like Karate Chop, has 6 different moves for this hand position
- Toho ( like choke position)
-Yon Nukite ( four finger spear hand, 2 strikes)
- Nihon nukite ( 2 fingers, eye gouge)
- ippon nukite ( 1 finger strike)
- Keiko ( bird beak like Kung Fu )
- Hitosashiyubi ippon ken ( forefinger knuckle fist)
-nakayubi ipppon ken ( middle finger knuckle fist )
-oyabi ippon ken ( thunb knuckle fist, has 5 strikes)
- ryuto-ken ( dragon head fist)
koken ( top of wrist, has 4 moves for this hand position)
-kote ( forearm, has 4 strikes)
hiji (elbow, has 6 strikes for the elbow)

they are the only ones i can remember , if TKD has all these techniques i will be very impressed.

this topic was not about flaming TKD, BUT i was just trying to clear it up that TKD does not have all of the hand techniques that karate does.

oh yea lol here are the foot positions for karates kicks

-Chusoku ( ball of the foot)
-haisoku ( top of the foot)
-teisoku ( arch of foot)
-hiza (knee)
-kakato(heel)
-sokuto ( ouyside knife edge of the foot)
-sune (shin) they are the basic foot positions i believe that in the 2nd - 3rd dan stuff there are singular toe kicks lol.

our front kick uses chusoku, groin kick uses haisoku, and back kick uses kakato (just some examples).

hey just a question does TKD have knee attacks???

oh and with ur reply could someone please give me a full list of TKD hand POSITIONS not the actaull strikes and the foot positions.

thank you for ur time

-cheers

p.s this was not saying that TKD was bad, so no1 get offended

feel free 2 reply lol

-cheers

I would like to point out that though TKD doesn't, in your oppinion, not have all of the hand strikes of Karate, neither does Karate. There are so many different style of Karate out there that between them there is individuality in their supply of hand strikes. TKD does have all of the hand strikes foung in Shotakon.

I'm sorry, which of those hand strikes did you think TKD did not have?

Tell you right now, after looking at the list, you are wrong. EVERYTHING you listed, not only appears in TKD, also appears in other MAs.

Imagine that. There are only so many ways a human can punch and more than one MA covers it.

Weird.

well i have 3 friends that are over black belt in TKD and they all said that TKD does not have finger or single nuckle strikes.

and also could u plz give me a list of all the TKD HAND POSITIONS (not the actual strike but the position, because each of the positions that I listed has multiple attacks to it)

also does TKD have knee attacks????

Um, are we trying to make a point here? Warrior_james, would it kill you to live and let live?

Imagine that. There are only so many ways a human can punch and more than one MA covers it.
That says it all Random.

Warrior,
how long have you been in the Martial Arts?

yes i am trying to prove a point, duh im saying that TKD does not have all the karate hand moves.

jesus christ can u guys stay on topic and try to answer the question because at the moment u are all saying these pointless lines and quotes to try and make me appear the fool.

can i please have a list of all the TKD hand positiona and does TKD have knee attacks, plz just answer the question.

Hi warrior_james:

Noted your post and the point you're trying to proved has very little validity.

"yes i am trying to prove a point, duh im saying that TKD does not have all the karate hand moves."

Wrong. They have exactly the same.

"jesus christ can u guys stay on topic and try to answer the question because at the moment u are all saying these pointless lines and quotes to try and make me appear the fool."

You don't need any help to appear foolish.

"can i please have a list of all the TKD hand positiona and does TKD have knee attacks, plz just answer the question."

Yes TKD guys use knees. No I can't be bothered to list hand positions. It's a pointless exercise as they're the same as karate.

Try to stop thinking of things as style specific and assume that the human body can only do certain things. In all styles they do the same things with variations based on grappling, striking, etc. These are different goals rather than style specifics.

JohnL

so if this is true (the hand thing) then Karate is the same as TKD.

but then y do more Karatekas win fights (between karate and TKD), it must be how TKD and Karate is practiced.

they must use different fighting practice.

oh and JohnL if TKD has so many hand techniques then y dont they use them when fighting??
are these techniques a waste of time??
(at my dojo we practice all the techniques in fighting).
and also just wondering in all the TKD fights that i have seen y dont they knee each other?? (might just b the fights that i have see but an art like TKD focuses on kicks and legs and they are ignoring knee attacks it just seems strange to me.

and just wondering from ur description and the internets (researched TKD techniques lol) TKD is a complete striking style. but y dont they elbow?? can they or is it against competition rules???

p.s or all the TKD ppl out there plz dont take this like i am flaming TKD cause im not, i am just uninformed about TKD and by these questions i am hoping to learn more

-cheers

I'm starting to think there should be age/maturity limits for posting on this board. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

Tonight I'll put together a list of hand and foot positions for you..., but, offhand, I don't see ANY on your list that I don't recall seeing in General Choi's text.

In answer to other questions, yes, TKD does have knee and elbow strikes. The fact that you don't see them used during sparring or in tournaments might be because it is against the rules. To quote you... "duh". That doesn't mean the techniques are not taught, are not trained, and are not available in a "real" self defense situation.

I also find it amusing that you and a couple of other self-proclaimed "karatekas" come onto a TKD forum and proclaim that "I'm not trying to bash... but..." and then you proceed with the bashing topic of the day... i.e. high kicks are useless... you don't have all the hand positions... your art isn't 6000 years old... you don't do this... you don't do that... karate guys always kick TKD guys' butts.... blah, blah, blah. Passive-aggressive BS.

Hi warrior_james

Some notes on your post:

"so if this is true (the hand thing) then Karate is the same as TKD."

Well done warrior james. You're starting to get it.

"but then y do more Karatekas win fights (between karate and TKD), it must be how TKD and Karate is practiced."

They don't. The better fighter wins, regardless of style.

"they must use different fighting practice."

Some styles have different fighting practices because they fight under different sets of rules.

"oh and JohnL if TKD has so many hand techniques then y dont they use them when fighting??"

Once again it depends on what rules they're fighting under. Mind you, in Kyokoshin fighting, standard knockdown rules, the techniques used are generally very limited.

"are these techniques a waste of time??
(at my dojo we practice all the techniques in fighting)."

Some are. It all depends on situations.

"and also just wondering in all the TKD fights that i have seen y dont they knee each other?? (might just b the fights that i have see but an art like TKD focuses on kicks and legs and they are ignoring knee attacks it just seems strange to me."

Because that is the rules of the competition they fight in. You could also ask why in Kyokushin tournaments they don't punch to the face. The answer is, it's against the rules that they're fighting under.

"and just wondering from ur description and the internets (researched TKD techniques lol) TKD is a complete striking style. but y dont they elbow?? can they or is it against competition rules???"

It's against the rules they're fighting under. In training in the dojo (dojang) it's different, sometimes.

JohnL

Whether some techniques are practised in the dojang depends on what they are trying to get out of training. If a school concentrates on competition, it would be a waste of time to train knee strikes. Would a soccer player waste time learning how to catch a ball? (except for the keeper, of course)

[QUOTE]Originally posted by warrior_james:
so if this is true (the hand thing) then Karate is the same as TKD.

It's not the same, yet it is the same. One day you'll understand that.

but then y do more Karatekas win fights (between karate and TKD), it must be how TKD and Karate is practiced.

they must use different fighting practice.

That's a subjective comment, based on what, I'm not sure. Invite Karatekas to a TKD tournament, and I'd bet that TKD wins. And vice versa. No holds barred? the better martial artist would win, style aside.

oh and JohnL if TKD has so many hand techniques then y dont they use them when fighting??

I often use hand techniques when sparring, and I don't stop at closed handed. At the same time, I wouldn't use a finger thrust or elbow strike while sparing, since I like the people I spar with [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]


are these techniques a waste of time??
(at my dojo we practice all the techniques in fighting).

No, they are not. One major point you seem to be missing is that there isn't "ONE" style of TKD. In fact, there are many, many variations of TKD. Some emphasis more hand techniqes than others. If you want to understand Tae Kwon Do, I believe it's very important to understand where it came from, and how it has evolved.

and also just wondering in all the TKD fights that i have seen y dont they knee each other?? (might just b the fights that i have see but an art like TKD focuses on kicks and legs and they are ignoring knee attacks it just seems strange to me.

See my point about sparing with people I like. Do we practice knee strikes? Yes. Are they used in sparing? No, not point sparring. Are they useful? During the right situation, of course.

and just wondering from ur description and the internets (researched TKD techniques lol) TKD is a complete striking style. but y dont they elbow?? can they or is it against competition rules???

Already explained this one. It's practices, I'd use it in a close-quaters situation, but we don't use it in sparing.


p.s or all the TKD ppl out there plz dont take this like i am flaming TKD cause im not, i am just uninformed about TKD and by these questions i am hoping to learn more


-cheers[/QUOTE]


I don't think your flamming, but you said it yourself, you are uninformed, and need to learn more. If you study asian martial art history, you'll come to have a basic understanding on the "why" and "why not". Start there.

where i train at we use knees


hand techniques

jab straight cross hook uppercut
palm heel elbows

maybe a little ridgehand once in a while

kicks are below and above waist

i do bag work on my own and some combinations
and i spar on my own with friends

when the instructor that does a lot of full contact stuff gets back i will be doing ground work more and full power sparring once a week

well actually u can kick in the head in knock down. and i know the fight depends on the person but yes it does have something to do with the style.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by warrior_james:
well actually u can kick in the head in knock down. and i know the fight depends on the person but yes it does have something to do with the style.

[/QUOTE]

Hi WJ

Is that the best statement you can come up with. Your original questions, while niave, were all answered reasonably. Read what was said and learn.

JohnL

I spent a goodly number of years practicing several martial arts forms. Shorinji-ryu, Seido (Kyokoshin-ki) and now TKD.
As far as differences are concerned. All the hand techniques are present in TKD, including tiger claw and single finger strikes, however, the focus is on Olympic style sparing in many dojangs. Therefore, hand techniques are often bypassed in favor of kicking for scoring points. Now within my current school, we have 2 levels of fighting. There is Olympic and then street, which includes hopkido and throws, grappling, and handling weapons. So different techniques for different situations. One is less likely to throw a high kick in a street fight, unless one is unbelievably fast. Too easy to evade or block. Why do that, when a short strong strike/kick to the instep or groin will be more effective?
As far as answering the suppostion that Karateka more often win in bouts against TKDoers, if this is true, and I don't know how you prove this, but let's say for argument sake say it is, perhaps it has to do less with strikes and kicks and more with positioning on the floor, in other words, TWD, (although I am recently new to the art) seems to rely on more forward and backward, linear movements, while my previous training looked more at evading at angles, and set ups for counters. If any more experienced TWDoers have any input on this, it would greatly be appreciated.
Well I hope, this addresses your question John, and adds just another person's take on the situation.
Happy trails!!!
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

whoops sorry John, I meant Warrior James
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]

I resent the fact you claimed Karate beats TKD in competition, In fact no matter the style if givin the opurtunity to unleash ones self in true combat, Style doesnt matter, he/she who trains and the most conditioned man/woman will win. All schools are different, some have the same, some have different, but they should all lead to the same path.

look james, let me tell u this. i take karate, and i want to take tkd afterwards. it still depends on the people who are fighting each other when it comes tournaments. tkd specializes in kicks. that may be the reason to why ppl who take tkd don't use as many hand techniques.

Sorry it took so long to get this together. We have a son going in for brain surgery possibly this week, so I've spent an inordinate amount of time in doctors offices and the hospital for the last two weeks in addition to the usual schedule of school, little league, Taekwon-Do AND Tang Soo Do lessons, homework, etc., for my other son. I've put the Korean terminology in Bold face next to your corresponding Karate technique. My source is General Choi's Abridged Taekwon-Do Encyclopedia. We expect your apology...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by warrior_james:
i am just so sick and tired of TKD practitioners saying that TKD has every hand move that Karate has. [/QUOTE]Not nearly as sick and tired as I am of karatekas coming to a TKD forum claiming how superior their art is and how lacking TKD is. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]these are all of the hand positions that we use in Kyokushin and how many DIFFERENT strikes each of the position has

- seiken ( front fist, normal fist )[/QUOTE]
Ap Joomuk - Front Fist
[QUOTE]- uraken ( back fist , has 4 different moves for it)[/QUOTE]
Dung Joomuk - Back Fist
[QUOTE]-tettsui ( hammer fist, has 5 different moves for this position)[/QUOTE]Yop Joomuk - Side Fist
[QUOTE]-haisho ( back of hand, 3 different moves)[/QUOTE]Sondung - Back Hand
[QUOTE]- haito ( inner knife hand, has 3 different moves)[/QUOTE] Sonkal Dung - Reverse Knife Hand or Ridge Hand
[QUOTE]- shotei ( the palm )[/QUOTE] Sonbadak - Palm
[QUOTE]- hiraken ( flat fist, has 2 different strikes)[/QUOTE] Ghin Joomuk - Long Fist
[QUOTE]-shuto (knife hand like Karate Chop, has 6 different moves for this hand position[/QUOTE] Sonkal - Knife hand
[QUOTE]- Toho ( like choke position)[/QUOTE]Bandal Son - Arc-Hand
[QUOTE]-Yon Nukite ( four finger spear hand, 2 strikes)[/QUOTE]Sonkut - Fingertips, using Flat Fingertip, Straight Fingertip and Upset Fingertip
[QUOTE]- Nihon nukite ( 2 fingers, eye gouge)[/QUOTE]Doo Songarak - Double Fingertip
[QUOTE]- ippon nukite ( 1 finger strike)[/QUOTE]Han Songarak - Forefinger
[QUOTE]- Keiko ( bird beak like Kung Fu )[/QUOTE]Homi Sonkut - Angle Fingertip
[QUOTE]- Hitosashiyubi ippon ken ( forefinger knuckle fist)[/QUOTE]Inji Joomuk - Fore-knuckle Fist
[QUOTE]-nakayubi ipppon ken ( middle finger knuckle fist )[/QUOTE]Joongji Joomuk - Middle Knuckle Fist
[QUOTE]-oyabi ippon ken ( thunb knuckle fist, has 5 strikes)[/QUOTE]Umji Joomuk - Thumb Knuckle Fist
[QUOTE]- ryuto-ken ( dragon head fist)[/QUOTE] not sure what this is, but, see below
[QUOTE]koken ( top of wrist, has 4 moves for this hand position)[/QUOTE]Sonmok Dung - Bow Wrist
[QUOTE]-kote ( forearm, has 4 strikes)[/QUOTE]Palmok - Forearm - we use Inner Forearm, Back Forearm, Under Forearm, and Outer Forearm
[QUOTE]hiji (elbow, has 6 strikes for the elbow)[/QUOTE]Palkup - Elbow

[QUOTE]they are the only ones i can remember , if TKD has all these techniques i will be very impressed.[/QUOTE]

Well, you're probably not impressed, because I don't know what a "dragon head fist" is, but, perhaps its one of these that you don't list: Gomson - Bear Hand; Jiap - Press Finger; Songarak Badak - Finger Belly; Umji Batang - Thumb Ridge; Sonkal Batang - Base Knife Hand; Jipge Son - Finger Pincers; Pyun Joomuk - Open Fist; Umji - Thumb;

[QUOTE]this topic was not about flaming TKD, BUT i was just trying to clear it up that TKD does not have all of the hand techniques that karate does.[/QUOTE]You know darn well you were trying to flame, or you wouldn't be putting the little "lol", "duh", and "jesus christ can't you guys stay on topic" type comments in your text. i.e. See your next sentence:

[QUOTE]oh yea lol here are the foot positions for karates kicks

-Chusoku ( ball of the foot)
-haisoku ( top of the foot)
-teisoku ( arch of foot)
-hiza (knee)
-kakato(heel)
-sokuto ( ouyside knife edge of the foot)
-sune (shin) they are the basic foot positions i believe that in the 2nd - 3rd dan stuff there are singular toe kicks lol.

our front kick uses chusoku, groin kick uses haisoku, and back kick uses kakato (just some examples).

hey just a question does TKD have knee attacks???

oh and with ur reply could someone please give me a full list of TKD hand POSITIONS not the actaull strikes and the foot positions.

thank you for ur time

-cheers

p.s this was not saying that TKD was bad, so no1 get offended[/QUOTE]
You don't REALLY want to compare the number of foot/leg techniques in karate to TKD, do you? You'll be embarassed...

-cheers

[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 10-04-2004).]

There you go WJ.....all you questions have been answered, since this is a tired thread we will just go ahead and close it!!