The Ideal Black Belt

Obviously, everyone has different perspectives on what the ideal blackbelt would be. And since there are so many with different requirments, especially in TKD, you end up with blackbelts worth nothing and blackbelts who well earned their title. In your opinion, what specifications or charachteristics make the "perfect" black belt?

I don't know if this question is simply in regards to TKD, but I will answer anyway. That is a difficult question. I used to feel that there should be one standard and if an individual did not measure up they did not deserve their black belt. I would see people who's kata was crap. They had no power, no speed, and were very robotic. I would see people who would only point spar and if you sparred without the gloves they would complain if you hit them too hard. They had no advanced knowledge of the concepts and principles of their art and just sucked. I would think to myself why the hell is this person a black belt. These days a black belt means nothing. There is no standard to control the quality of black belts that are produced. If you look back to when Funakoshi adopted the belt system of Judo he simply gave all of his senior students a black belt. I think these days it does not have as much to do with skill as level of seniority in a style. I always felt if you are a black belt you should be able to fight at a certain level, but as we all know there are vast differences among the fighting skill of black belts. These days any kid who's parents have money to burn can find a dojo to give them a black belt and any middle class middle aged individual with no fighting spirit and way too much time on their hands can do the same. Because of all of this I have changed my view on what an ideal black belt is. Being a black belt is about being the best that you can be at all times, seniority, training everyday, trying to gain greater knowledge in you style, helping the other students, things like that. Maybe I was spoiled at a young age because of the great skill of my Sensei, but being a black belt has less and less to do with skill these days. Maybe one day I will begin the revolution.

[This message has been edited by medulanet (edited 11-15-2003).]

Not just TKD. medulanet, agreed.

very good question, and good answer medulant.
if you wear a black belt, you should be able to fight...period. even if you dont train just for fighting (i imagine few of us traing JUST to learn to fight) you should be able to defend yourself using your chosen art even if its just a byproduct of your training, otherwise there is nothing MARTIAL about what you do. that is my opinion.
however you must take into consideration things such as age, flexibility, agility, possible handicaps etc.
i think your spirit has as much to do with wearing a black obi as skill does.
you should be able to name, explain, and perform all concepts, principles, and techniques in order AND at random, (attack AND defense)..from memory, for ALL previous ranks.(i think that should be part of your shodan test) your movements should be fluid and natural to you. and just the fact that you stayed and persevered long enough to test for black belt tells something about your spirit! i also think that you should be able to teach lower ranks if you are a black belt (licensed instructor or not) and some org's require this before testing.
you should know the history of your art, and be able to explain it, and all terminology (if applicable)
also you should be good at randori (free practice) and successfully use your art against random attacks.
basically a black belt should have and be able to show repeated, demonstratable skill in all aspects of their art, history, culture, customs, ettiquette, techniques, concepts, principles, basic teaching, and actually shodan should mean you have excellent basics period...etc.
i also think there should be a certain amount of training hours required in each rank before (and after) 1st dan. (too many black belts running around that have only studied for 1 1/2 to 2 years tops, when they only study maybe once or twice a week)
i also think there should be a minimum age requirement for shodan, and if younger you should be a "junior" black belt. or have a different curriculum for kids and adults.
in my original art, the test consisted of the following:
know techniques, defenses, concepts etc...be able to name and perform them etc...the end of the test was basically 4 ranking black belts lined up along the wall, you start from one end and FIGHT your way to the other and make it out the door, then you pass...keep in mind they didnt expect you to be able to whip 4 black belts...but to be able to hold your own and live through it. just a note lol

why is opinion underlined in all these posts?

opinion is underlined? i dont see anything underlined. do you mean literally the word is underlined?
maybe its to stress that it is but an opinion, and not fact, and its ok to disagree. who knows

now its not. sorry. my laptop has some dumb highlight thing for my word processor. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/redface.gif[/IMG]

A black belt should be able to fight. Back in the day, when black belts were rare, every black belt I knew was a terrific fighter,essentially unable to be defeated by any untrained person.
This is still true for the most part in Judo and BJJ, probably other arts I don't know about but not usually the case in TKD.
In Judo the promotion system ensures this fighting ability. You have to win in tournaments in order to be promoted.( with some exceptions now)
I know I know, not everyone wants to compete etc. etc. But thats what we do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by judodoc:
A black belt should be able to fight. Back in the day, when black belts were rare, every black belt I knew was a terrific fighter,essentially unable to be defeated by any untrained person.
This is still true for the most part in Judo and BJJ, probably other arts I don't know about but not usually the case in TKD.
In Judo the promotion system ensures this fighting ability. You have to win in tournaments in order to be promoted.( with some exceptions now)
I know I know, not everyone wants to compete etc. etc. But thats what we do. [/QUOTE]

I was just going to post something similar. Part of Judo and BJJ testing requirements are wins at tournaments. In some ways this is very good...these people can fight under pressure. Some of the cons are that people don't have the time/money to compete regularly and lack experience to win. There is a post under the Judo section debating the ups and downs of this type of testing requirements. Also, Judo min age for BB is 16. I think black belts should have at least some exerience in competition (if competitions are common in your art: Judo, BJJ, even TKD) as well as knowledge of their art and techniques.

here's the problem I have with the being able to fight part.

In my school we have a 52 year old women,she started training about 6 mo. ago.She trains her ass off and is one of the only females who shows up for bjj(we don't receive belt in bjj,it is optional training).
Is it reasonable to expect her to be able to fight? fight against who? we have a shortage of 52 year old women in our school,or do you mean she should be able to fight me-a 34 year old male who is a foot taller than her and around 60 pounds heavier?
Does the fact she spends extra time after class training, asks questions and keeps going over stuff she doesn't understand until she gets it count for nothing?

Just my opinion(sorry, can't figure out how to underline it) [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

good post neko, agree 100 per cent.
She SHOULD be able to demonstrate fighting skills of course, but not neccesarily be able to win.
Sharon

[This message has been edited by wadowoman (edited 11-19-2003).]

I agree also. I think it is about demonstrating the ability to apply techniques in an alive environment. Fighting in martial practice is should never really be about winning and losing, but about free expression of martial skill. The level of success will of course vary across age, gender, and physical attributes.

Neko,
She can train, and more power to her. But a black belt ? Seems far fetched to me, starting from where she is.
There are plenty of 52 year old Judo black belts but they all earned them during their competition days, and most or all of them can still defeat any untrained person.

Judodoc, I have no doubt that eventualy she will earn her black.We do not compete in tournaments or sport fighting.
Our instructor trains us in what we are interested in.If that is realistic fighting skills, its there.Physical fitness and "pure" art,it's there.

As for being able to beat untrained people, who cares-I was doing it regularly because of my job with no training.

I've been asking myself this for a while now, because I am approaching my test for the rank of black belt candidate in February. I am 35 years old and I have been training 2-3 times a week at my local dojang for two years. I expect it to take another 4 months at least after candidate stage to get to a bona fide black belt.

An ideal black belt? Surely they would know how to apply the techniques of the art. Specifically he/she should be able to demonstrate all the techniques one learns from white belt on up. Memorized and fluent and with power.

Surely being a black belt requires the ability to fight, as others have pointed out. That's not to say that a black belt martial artist must be virtually "untouchable" by untrained fighters. And that's not to say that he/she must "win" a certain amount against certain other practicioners. it simply means that he/she must be able to demonstrate the techniques of the art effectively in a sparing situation. Period.

This person should know something about the history and culture of his art, as has been suggested by others.

Here's something that hasn't been mentioned at all: a black belt martial artist must be someone who strives to be a better person. Think about the tenets of tae kwon do or the student oath that most of us recite. It's my opinion that anyone in a traditional martial art must be striving to improve him/herself, make him/herself into a better person according to those principles.

If this last point is not observed, what you have is certainly martial, but there is no "art" involved. That's no disrespect to martial disciplines and martial sports like boxing or thai kick boxing or anything else. it's simply to say that the endeavor I am on in tae kwon do is different and more holistic. And any black belt practitioner of it should reflect that difference.

Just my $0.02 worth.

Good point Scott. I have been mulling this thread for a while to formulate my answer. I too have been practicing TKD 2-3 times a week for about three years. I am a 1st Gup and if all goes according plan, I will test for my 1st Dan in Jan 2005. I believe, as you, that the ideal BB should be a better person than average, simply because of the position of trust and teaching that they represent. Does this always happen, sadly, no. But for the most part, yes. I personally have found that on my journey to Dan rank, I have become more calm and patient, I certainly have more confidence in myself, and hopefully that confidence passes to others.

Pilsung,
Lee

A ideal black belt to me is someone who has mastered the basics and advanced moves of the art and that they help pass on what their master taught them when they started. this I think applies to any art form.

[This message has been edited by Dark (edited 01-13-2004).]

Dark,

I agree with you with you except I would change your word "perfect" to "ideal" and remove the word "advanced". This is not a perfect world and really, what difference does it make to me if someone else out there has a BB but can't do half the moves that I can?

Just my opinion.

Tom


[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dark:
A perfect black belt to me is someone who has mastered the basics and advanced moves of the art and that they help pass on what their master taught them when they started. this I think applies to any art form.[/QUOTE]

The Perfect blackbelt should be someone who hasnt came out of a belt factory, done 5-7 years training and is over 17.

So if I trained half an hour a week for 5-7 years and am a convicted pedophile I'm a perfect blackbelt...

As long as I'm over eighteen.

Black belt is based on skill and character not age.

You're back at it again Kiwi, aren't you.

TKD's rep is going down the pan along with the 8, 9, and 10 year old blackbelts. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

kiwi,,,

what if the "Perfect Black Belt" was a mass murderer,, he still is the "perfect black belt" even though he has something wrong with him,, you cant take that away from a person,, your generalising (sp) my statement its like saying that the smartest ppl in the world look like albert einstien (sp)

What 10-year-old black belts? In my dojang children below a certain age are awarded "junior" black belts, not official one's with certification from the WTF. I see no problem with this, nor do I see where the arts reputation should suffer for it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
You're back at it again Kiwi, aren't you.

TKD's rep is going down the pan along with the 8, 9, and 10 year old blackbelts. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

[/QUOTE]

I just think that age and time spent training should not be the sole defining factor in determining the perfect black belt. I think that skill and character are far more important attributes, and I also think that mass murderers and pedophiles shouldn't be black belts.

John your statemnet could have easily been corect if you had put 10, 11, 12 year old black belts. Yes I am back at it again, whats the point of going on this forum if you arn't going to state your opinions?

Scott you need to have a look at some other threads in this forum, and corect me if I'm wrong scott a junior black belt is still a black belt.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 01-13-2004).]

Kiwi, you are wrong, a junior black belt is not a black belt. Just like in high school somebody playing sports on the junior varsity team is not a varsity player.

A junior black belt is a black belt under eighteen. That is a black belt in my books.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 01-13-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scottfeldstein:
What 10-year-old black belts? In my dojang children below a certain age are awarded "junior" black belts, not official one's with certification from the WTF. I see no problem with this, nor do I see where the arts reputation should suffer for it.[/QUOTE]

So they aren't the same as adult black belts?

Then why are they black belts?

-Elle

At my dojang, if you're below a certain age and you demonstrate a certain level of mastery of a program of martial arts then you get <i>junior</i> black belt. If you're above that certain age, then you may recieve a black belt that comes with certification from the World Taekwondo Federation.

There are small variations in training that lead up to these black belts. Head strikes are not allowed when kids spar. They do not have to show mastery of 2 on 1 sparing. They do not have to learn 3-step sparing techniques, focusing on 1-step ones. Kids to have to memorize a special list of childrens rules of conduct, adults don't. Minor differences. Otherwise it's all the same.

But one is a junior black belt and one is a black belt with WTF certification. Because you don't get certification when you're 10, or whatever.

Is that so hard to understand? What is the source of the confusion here? My understanding is that a junior black belt can get test for a regular one when the proper age has been attained. Makes perfect sense to me.

I'm just saying I believe a black belt under eighteen is still a black belt. You can disagree with me fi you want. Oh and In WTF tornaments adults arn't allowed to strike to the head either and seeing as most WTF schools train for tornaments I still don't see a difference.

[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 01-15-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
I'm just saying I believe a black belt under eighteen is still a black belt.[/QUOTE]

So working down (17,16,15 etc.) at what age are they not a black belt?

JohnL

The perfect black belt should be won acheived with lots of sweat, blood, tears,years, sore joints and blackeyes if you dont spar and get some stiches blackeyes or at least get your mouth piece knocked out of your mouth then the blackbelt is worth nothing.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KenpoKing:
The perfect black belt should be won acheived with lots of sweat, blood, tears,years, sore joints and blackeyes if you dont spar and get some stiches blackeyes or at least get your mouth piece knocked out of your mouth then the blackbelt is worth nothing.[/QUOTE]

I used to know a katateka who had studied for years, used to sweat a lot, always complained about being sore, got black eyes regularly, a few cuts also, and his mouthpiece spent more time on the floor than in his mouth.

Was he a perfect black belt.

No he was crap.

None of your criteria make sense in the way you have presented them.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scottfeldstein:
At my dojang, if you're below a certain age and you demonstrate a certain level of mastery of a program of martial arts then you get <i>junior</i> black belt. If you're above that certain age, then you may recieve a black belt that comes with certification from the World Taekwondo Federation.

There are small variations in training that lead up to these black belts. Head strikes are not allowed when kids spar. They do not have to show mastery of 2 on 1 sparing. They do not have to learn 3-step sparing techniques, focusing on 1-step ones. Kids to have to memorize a special list of childrens rules of conduct, adults don't. Minor differences. Otherwise it's all the same.

But one is a junior black belt and one is a black belt with WTF certification. Because you don't get certification when you're 10, or whatever.

Is that so hard to understand? What is the source of the confusion here? My understanding is that a junior black belt can get test for a regular one when the proper age has been attained. Makes perfect sense to me.[/QUOTE]

Please read my posts under the "fav things about TKD". I really dont feel like typing them again. If you don't understand by after reading them, then it is no use.

-Elle

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
Please read my posts under the "fav things about TKD". I really dont feel like typing them again. If you don't understand by after reading them, then it is no use.

-Elle[/QUOTE]

I read them and liked them. One theme in particular stands out:

[QUOTE]
...being a black belt means more than how many boards you can break or how big of opponets you fight. It's an attitude, and a behavior... You have to be humble enough not to brag about how many boards you can break, how many bigger opponets you fought, or how you can do the 360 kick... You have to have integrity...
[/QUOTE]

As one who openly places value on the non-physical aspects of martial arts, I find your comments refreshing. It is unusual to read this kind of sentiment about MA online. Usually there's nothing but bragging going on.

At the same time, the context in which you bring this up is puzzling. Basically you're going on and on about how other martial artists aren't as good as you. They haven't trained as long or as hard or maybe it isn't the right way or they're not the right age... basically you are better than them. More deserving of your rank. An entirely different class of martial artist.

I think these comments, whether true or not, are at odds with your very sensible words above.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by scottfeldstein:
As one who openly places value on the non-physical aspects of martial arts, I find your comments refreshing. It is unusual to read this kind of sentiment about MA online. Usually there's nothing but bragging going on.

At the same time, the context in which you bring this up is puzzling. Basically you're going on and on about how other martial artists aren't as good as you. They haven't trained as long or as hard or maybe it isn't the right way or they're not the right age... basically you are better than them. More deserving of your rank. An entirely different class of martial artist.

I think these comments, whether true or not, are at odds with your very sensible words above.[/QUOTE]

I do not think I am better than anyone else, especially if i have not seen them perform before. I do find it incredibly frustrating, however, for someone like IPCshooter to tell me that her 10 year old son is my equal. I was not trying to boast or put down her son, becuase he may be very good. I have seen awesome 10 year olds. But the fact remains, he cant be as good as someone who has trained 10 years longer and had to do more challenging things. Now, Im not also saying that her son wasn't challenged. He probably was, but not in the same way. Expecting the same things out of a 10 year old and a 16 year old is just unreasonable. I think it is unfair of the dojang and shooter to think her son is capable of being a blackebelt. HE IS ONLY 10.

I would be the last to brag or assume myself better than anyone else. Almost everyone on this forum is worlds better than me. And that's great, becuase that's the way people learn. The better people share their insight. Even though I am a blackbelt, I am far from thinking my learning is over. Everytime I train I learn more and more things. Please try to understand that shooter just hit a nerve with me. She was the parent who thought her kid was the greatest thing, and even told me that he was just as good or better than me (keep in mind she hasn't seen ME train), and then tried to use my difficulty with a kick as an example. I have problems with that kick becuase i am afraid of injuring myself again, AND I AM STILL LEARNING. Shooter has the impression that her kid, now a blackbelt, is done with his learning. It's the end of the road, he got the prize for mom, and now its time to brag. But derek still has things to learn, and just becuase he might have "perfected" kicks doesn't mean he knows everything.

I know this post is kinda hard to understand, I just don't know how to say it any more. Thanks for bearing with me.

-Elle

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
...I know this post is kinda hard to understand, I just don't know how to say it any more. Thanks for bearing with me.

-Elle[/QUOTE]

I think it's quite clear and I hope I haven't offended you. It occured to me while reading your words that I had forgotten one very important qualifcation for the "ideal black belt."

He or she must view the attainment of 1st dan as just a beginning.

Pil sung, Elle.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
Shooter has the impression that her kid, now a blackbelt, is done with his learning. It's the end of the road, he got the prize for mom, and now its time to brag. But derek still has things to learn, and just becuase he might have "perfected" kicks doesn't mean he knows everything.
-Elle[/QUOTE]

It's "his" kid...

I don't know where you came up with the idea that I think Derek is done with his learning. I never once said anything remotely similar to that. I never once said he knows "everything". He doesn't think it either. He has recognized holes in his training, and asked me to find an instructor to work on things that our Master does not emphasize in the kids' class. As a result, he's taking JKD lessons on Saturdays. His JKD instructor told him that, if he wanted, he could wear his black belt to class, his attitude was, "no, I haven't earned it here, yet." He starts middle school next year. In lieu of P.E. class, his school offers Tang Soo Do, five days a week, 1 1/2 hours per day. He intends to join that class and hopes to attain a black belt in TSD. I sat through one of their "advanced" classes, 8th graders who are currently green belts, to be tested for red by end of the school year, and Derek's techniques are far superior to any of those kids. After I explained that he'd have to start over at white belt, and could not advance any more quickly than any of the beginners in the class, that they only test twice a year regardless of whether you are ready to test yet or not, his attitude was "no problem, I don't know Tang Soo Do yet, so I SHOULD be a white belt." Once he reaches the TSD black belt, he plans to come back to TKD to work toward completion of his 2nd Dan. I'm not sure how any of this reflects an attitude that I think (or that he thinks) he knows everything and has finished learning.

As for the 360 kick, in the post that I referred to, you did not mention that you had been injured and never mentioned an injury as the reason you were having trouble with the kick. All it said was that the kick was giving you troubles. So what? It gives me troubles to. But, your other posts, in which you "don't mean to put Derek down", you seemed to indicate a belief that there was no way that Derek could be as good as you at anything. I was merely pointing out that on a kick that gives you trouble, he broke two boards during his black belt test. I thought that was a pretty impressive feat for a 4 1/2' tall kid who weighs in at maybe 50 lbs.

My apologies if my pride in my son's accomplishments comes off to you as "bragging". Maybe some day you'll have a child who does something that you view as extraordinary. When he does, I hope someone comes along and tells you he doesn't really deserve what he worked so hard to accomplish, that he didn't really work hard, but that since he's too young, he really was just playing around...


[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 01-19-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
So working down (17,16,15 etc.) at what age are they not a black belt?

JohnL[/QUOTE]

As Kiwi has not responded, perhaps Elle or shooter would have an opinion.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ipscshooter:
He starts middle school next year. In lieu of P.E. class, his school offers Tang Soo Do, five days a week, 1 1/2 hours per day. He intends to join that class and hopes to attain a black belt in TSD. I sat through one of their "advanced" classes, 8th graders who are currently green belts, to be tested for red by end of the school year, and Derek's techniques are far superior to any of those kids. After I explained that he'd have to start over at white belt, and could not advance any more quickly than any of the beginners in the class, that they only test twice a year regardless of whether you are ready to test yet or not, his attitude was "no problem, I don't know Tang Soo Do yet, so I SHOULD be a white belt."

My apologies if my pride in my son's accomplishments comes off to you as "bragging". Maybe some day you'll have a child who does something that you view as extraordinary. When he does, I hope someone comes along and tells you he doesn't really deserve what he worked so hard to accomplish, that he didn't really work hard, but that since he's too young, he really was just playing around...


[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 01-19-2004).][/QUOTE]

Hi Shooter
Bearing in mind that TSD and TKD are almost the same thing, if you explained your sons level in TKD to the TSD guys I'm sure that starting at white belt and progressing at the same rate as beginers would not be a condition.

It is wholly illogical. As for your sons statement, that indicates a level of inexperience.

I have no doubt that you are proud of your sons achievements. I am proud of both of my daughters.
However I am proud of what they do and level at which they do it. Which is as a kid.

I have no doubt that I will be equally proud of what they do when they become adults.

JohnL

Sorry, I re-read your post, and found a couple of additional things that needed response.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
I do not think I am better than anyone else, especially if i have not seen them perform before. [/QUOTE]

Yet, this is exactly what you do about Derek. See the very next quote (and the one after that):

[QUOTE]I do find it incredibly frustrating, however, for someone like IPCshooter to tell me that her 10 year old son is my equal.[/QUOTE]

In other words, his skills are so inferior to yours that you find it incredibly frustrating for him to have a black belt. Note that I NEVER said he was your "equal". I said that, based on your statements, he could perform one kick better. And, I said his techniques were "comparable" to other first degree black belts. Do you really think that all black belts are exactly "equal" in all respects? I certainly don't. I've seen a whole range of talent levels at black belt. There are 60 year old black belts who couldn't even think about performing techniques that you are capable of. There are wheelchair bound black belts. There are black belts who are missing limbs.

[QUOTE]I was not trying to boast or put down her son, becuase he may be very good. I have seen awesome 10 year olds. But the fact remains, he cant be as good as someone who has trained 10 years longer and had to do more challenging things. -Elle[/QUOTE]

I thought you were 16. If so, you have not trained for 10 years longer, unless you started training before you could stand up. I never said he was as good as someone who had trained for 10 years longer. I said he was able to perform our school's required curriculum at a black belt level. Also, could you please give me an example of these "more challenging things" that you believe you have had to do.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi Shooter
Bearing in mind that TSD and TKD are almost the same thing, if you explained your sons level in TKD to the TSD guys I'm sure that starting at white belt and progressing at the same rate as beginers would not be a condition.

It is wholly illogical. As for your sons statement, that indicates a level of inexperience.[/QUOTE]

I understand that, John, but, I don't think it's a reflection of his level of inexperience. I've explained to him that, since the class is part of a public school curriculum [doesn't that mean a per se lack of logic?], there are some added restrictions on the testing. All testing is done in lock-step. You can fail tests and be held back, but you can't test at a faster rate than is offered within the class, i.e. two belt tests per year, minimum 4 years to black belt. Students who score over a certain percentage on the test get to wear an "honor stripe" on their belts. I have been told, however, that because of his level, he will be permitted to engage in extracurricular activities (i.e. demo team) that other beginners do not do, he'll likely be tagged as the instructor's assistant, and when the team goes to tournaments, he'll compete in sparring and kata as a black belt.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ipscshooter:
I understand that, John, but, I don't think it's a reflection of his level of inexperience. I've explained to him that, since the class is part of a public school curriculum [doesn't that mean a per se lack of logic?], there are some added restrictions on the testing. All testing is done in lock-step. You can fail tests and be held back, but you can't test at a faster rate than is offered within the class, i.e. two belt tests per year, minimum 4 years to black belt. Students who score over a certain percentage on the test get to wear an "honor stripe" on their belts. I have been told, however, that because of his level, he will be permitted to engage in extracurricular activities (i.e. demo team) that other beginners do not do, he'll likely be tagged as the instructor's assistant, and when the team goes to tournaments, he'll compete in sparring and kata as a black belt. [/QUOTE]

Sounds like the training will be a waste of his time. I'd try and get him to do something else.

An Honor stripe. Sounds like a McDojo already.

They'll let him compete and represent them as a blackbelt but he has to wear a white belt in class. Tell them to go **** themselves. This is exploitation.

He's going to be an assistant instructor and he's 10.

Sorry, that's crazy and again sounds like a McDojo.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Sounds like the training will be a waste of his time. I'd try and get him to do something else.

An Honor stripe. Sounds like a McDojo already.

They'll let him compete and represent them as a blackbelt but he has to wear a white belt in class. Tell them to go **** themselves. This is exploitation.

He's going to be an assistant instructor and he's 10.

Sorry, that's crazy and again sounds like a McDojo.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

I thought McDojo's were money focused... It's public school, so, the lessons are free. (I'm not sure, and don't want to be tagged as a racist or anything, but, what may be happening is that the school district is trying to avoid discrimination lawsuits by parents, who couldn't afford private lessons, seeing other kids advance faster than theirs). [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG] Students may elect to take the class in lieu of P.E. When the new crop of sixth graders come in, they all go into the beginners class. There may be a couple of kids in the class with prior martial arts experience. When learning new kicks, or the like, the instructor may demonstrate it, or he'll ask one of the kids with prior experience to demonstrate it. Or, when learning a new one step, it's easier to coherently demonstrate the techniques when the instructor can demonstrate it on someone who understands what he's trying to demonstrate. So, I guess it's more like "instructor's assistant" than "assistant instructor", if that makes any sense.

By the way, he'll be 11 tomorrow... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

my definition of a black belt- a person who lives and practices the way

[QUOTE]Originally posted by KenpoKing:
The perfect black belt should be won acheived with lots of sweat, blood, tears,years, sore joints and blackeyes if you dont spar and get some stiches blackeyes or at least get your mouth piece knocked out of your mouth then the blackbelt is worth nothing.[/QUOTE]

your opinion is not truth,it's what is worth nothing

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kang black belt:
my definition of a black belt- a person who lives and practices the way[/QUOTE]

Which way?

Black Belt, to me, means Advanced Beginner. They should have an understanding of movement, principles, strategy and the ability to apply them. Having studied MA for over 25 years, I can now look back and see Shodan as the beginning and the establishment of a solid foundation. Nothing more

Shooter, where do I begin? Well, since we are going in circles anyway, it really doesn't matter. I've made my points, you can't handle them, and all I can say is Good Luck to Master Derek.

Cheers,
Elle

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
Shooter, where do I begin? Well, since we are going in circles anyway, it really doesn't matter. I've made my points, you can't handle them, and all I can say is Good Luck to Master Derek.

Cheers,
Elle [/QUOTE]

Whatever. You have an opinion. You've not stated any facts, only opinions. Any "points" you think you may have made have been handled. All you've done, without knowing anything about Derek, is insist that he hasn't trained long enough or hard enough, that he couldn't possibly be as good as you (apparently YOU are the standard by which black belts are measured), and that he shouldn't have a first degree black belt because no one who is ten should have one. Of course, there are those here who think no one your age should have one either. Interesting how you draw the line so that you happen to pass it... Seems to me that you should either have (a) adult black belts only, 18 and up, or (b) black belts for those who have put forth the requisite amount of effort and have demonstrated the ability to perform the curriculum.

Frankly, your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. The only opinion that matters is that of our master, a 6th dan, trained under Grandmaster Van Binh, who is the chairman of the Masters testing committee at ITF. He felt that Derek had performed the curriculum at a black belt level and that he had earned the right to wear the belt.

I don't know where you study, but a first degree black belt does not make one a Master. The sarcastic "Master Derek" comment doesn't really help your argument, and it's already been done by JohnL.

[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 01-22-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ipscshooter:
Whatever. You have an opinion. You've not stated any facts, only opinions. Any "points" you think you may have made have been handled. All you've done, without knowing anything about Derek, is insist that he hasn't trained long enough or hard enough, that he couldn't possibly be as good as you (apparently YOU are the standard by which black belts are measured), and that he shouldn't have a first degree black belt because no one who is ten should have one. Of course, there are those here who think no one your age should have one either. Interesting how you draw the line so that you happen to pass it... Seems to me that you should either have (a) adult black belts only, 18 and up, or (b) black belts for those who have put forth the requisite amount of effort and have demonstrated the ability to perform the curriculum.

Frankly, your opinion means absolutely nothing to me. The only opinion that matters is that of our master, a 6th dan, trained under Grandmaster Van Binh, who is the chairman of the Grandmasters testing committee at ITF. He felt that Derek had performed the curriculum at a black belt level and that he had earned the right to wear the belt.

I don't know where you study, but a first degree black belt does not make one a Master. The sarcastic "Master Derek" comment doesn't really help your argument, and it's already been done by JohnL.[/QUOTE]
well done