Fav thing about TKD

Alot of us do TKD, and I know alot of us are very passionate about it? WHat is you favorite part of TKD. How has TKD helped you in your life?

I really wanted to post this topic because we get alot of heated arguments and negative comments in threads (Most necessary things that help us understand each others views). Would be cool to have a few more positve comments about TKD in this forum.

I really enjoy patterns. There are so many little things to pick up. I don't think i've evr gone through all my patterns without coming away with a little query about a technique. Patterns are also great for relaxing me, sparring is so intense, wearing myslef out with patterns is the best way to wind down for me.

TKD is a great outlet for agression to. Beating the stuffing out of the bag or having a spar with a partner knocks all the agression right out of you.

The feeling after a hard traing, theres nothing better.

Kiwi,

I must be the opposite of you when it comes to patterns-i can't stand doing them!!! However i love watching my instructor doing the later ones. Maybe its because i've only been studying the art for about 1.5 years that i just don't "get" patterns. I can't flow into them as some seem to.

I do have to agree with you on the kicking the shit out of a pad/bag/partner bit though. The feeling that i get from any excercise involving pad work and sparring is great.

Although kicking may be not as useful or as highly used, i get a better feelin within myself when i connect with a kick rather than a punch. The kicks and the variety in each and every one are my favourite parts of tkd.

Big Bear.



[This message has been edited by Big Bear (edited 11-06-2003).]

ive never seen TKD help me in life. The funest part? I would say listening to the instructor talk nonsense about how AWESOME the art is.

for me it was quite simple, where i studied tkd it was sport, nonsense when it came to real fighting, but at least they told you that up front.
my favorite thing about tkd...ITS FUN!
second favorite thing...it was easy to kick the crap out of everyone [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]
in the end, i got about half way to black belt and wanted a new direction, more realistic in terms of combat value, i didnt agree with their teaching methods, they were the reason many people now hate tkd, they simply didnt teach it (even somewhat) correctly, there was no dissecting of the forms (sets, patterns, hyungs, poomse) it was do the form, then get a belt. absolutely no "thinking outside the box" infact there wasnt even any thinking INSIDE the box!! no applications of the movements from the forms at all...none!! that is what makes kata dead...the lack of bunkai or applications and interpretations. in short...it was bs so i left. you shouldnt have to "modify" the kata movements for them to work, you just have to understand that you are probably misenterpreting the movements in the first place....then open your mind and think outside the box and see the MOVEMENTS...not this setup into this block and then punch and chamber your fist...etc....and also realize that you dont HAVE to aim every kick at the head...they teach you how to kick, where you aim that kick should be up to you.
greatest benefit i got from that particular tkd...it made me light on my feet, it taught me how to kick, and taught me what NOT to do...thats about it.
not knocking tkd, just THAT tkd. sorry for the rant [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

I really wanted to post this topic because we get alot of heated arguments and negative comments in threads (Most necessary things that help us understand each others views). Would be cool to have a few more positve comments about TKD in this forum.

Can I make it any clearer, this is for praising TKD, if your going to be negative post on one of the other topics.

I don't study tkd as such,but one of our new students came from a tkd school.All I can say is his kicks are pretty.He can snap those suckers out, great form.

as i said i learned how to kick, to be light on my feet, what not to do in a real fight(yes thats a good thing)and had great fun....thats it.
is that better [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

practicing TKD made my stamina a lot better, kicks a lot heavier,my shins tougher and my speed faster.

though you consider this discipline just for sports, still, it makes its practitioner tougher.

btw, knowing an art also builds confidence..
confidence is different from arrogance

PEACE!

Taekwondo taught me that 80% of kicking techniques are a waste of time and space.

JohnL

lol agreed 80% of "mainstream" kicking techniques are bs.
even if you only learn what NOT to do from an art, then its good i say.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
ive never seen TKD help me in life. The funest part? I would say listening to the instructor talk nonsense about how AWESOME the art is.[/QUOTE]

Have you taken TKD?

sounds like some of you guys have had some bad expieriences...

If you took in a reputable dojang, i think you guys would like it a bit better (maybe). I love the forms and the excersise. The kicks, as useless as some are, are great for technique, chambering, coordination, flexibility, power, and speed that can be applied in different areas. Although its a relativly new MA, the history leading up to it was pretty interesting. Some of the strikes are useful....

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Taekwondo taught me that 80% of kicking techniques are a waste of time and space.

JohnL[/QUOTE]
but what can you say about TKD's combination kickS??
when an opponent is hit by.. lets just say a just 100 pound kick.. do you think would he be able to react and counter your strikes.. it's just 100 lbs.. what more if he can deliver 3 kicks in less than 5 seconds having a weight of more than a hundred pound??

i guess you must really have a sparring partner from taekwondo for you to appreciate what i really mean..

Hi El Duce

"but what can you say about TKD's combination kickS??
when an opponent is hit by.. lets just say a just 100 pound kick.. do you think would he be able to react and counter your strikes.. it's just 100 lbs.. what more if he can deliver 3 kicks in less than 5 seconds having a weight of more than a hundred pound??"

Tjis is the thread for things we like about TKD, so it's a bit restrictive.

I think combination kicks teach great body control. They also taght me that they're useless.

As for 3 kicks in 5 seconds. If you stand at kicking distance for 5 seconds, you're going to get mauled.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi El Duce

Tjis is the thread for things we like about TKD, so it's a bit restrictive.

I think combination kicks teach great body control. They also taght me that they're useless.

As for 3 kicks in 5 seconds. If you stand at kicking distance for 5 seconds, you're going to get mauled.

JohnL
[/QUOTE]
what do you mean by your 1st statement??

for the last statement,
of course, it will not happen if you're able to execute the kicks successfully.

another thing is, for me,
one must able to deliver a correct kick in different situations. it's just like an action-reaction thing.

why should you use roundhouse kick to a guy if he's giving you a push kick(like reverse kick, side kicks.. etc.)

has anyone among you guys ever heard of an "asian long kick"??

this kick,is maybe, too fancy to be done on an actual combat, but this kick is one of the strongest kicks i know

i think he meant in his first statement that there isnt much he likes about tkd. lol
as for his second statement i agree....think about it....to kick (especially kicking quickly in succession) you must be standing on one leg, there are several things that are bad about that...one...you are off balance...and very easily taken down, and two since you are on one leg (and especially if you are kickin repeatedly) you are not mobile...ie you cant move out of the way!! therefore you will be mauled if you try to stand on one leg and kick repeatedly with the other leg for 5 seconds...which is way more time than a good fighter would need to take you out.

in the first place, why would you kick your opponent with just one kind of kick??
if you'll execute a sidekick to your opponent, do you think your opponent wouldn't budge even just a little bit??

El duce, the strongest kick I know is the one I can land and damage my opponent with.

since this has degenerated into tkd bashing, even though I respect tkd-I'll be glad to join in.

Favorite thing- how our former tkd student turns his back in sparring, allowing me to choke him out.
How he stands on one leg throwing multiple kicks, allowing me to grab him and brutalize him.
how he thoughtfuly throws a back fist, giving me his arm so I can throw him on the ground.

(though these are probably habits he picked up from point sparring, not from tkd)

I think this was an open invitation to praise Tae Kwon Do in a forum where individuals find so much to bash about it. The art DOES have its limitations (which art doesn't), but I will respect the nature of the thread. There ARE valuable things about TKD.

I have found that because it is an Olympic sport, many TKD instructors and coaches are more open-minded about modern training techniques. The opportunity to cross train in Olympic TKD with a very noteworthy instructor fell into my lap and I loved the conditioning drills. The plyometrics were awesome!

I also loved the paddle drills and, in particular, how the holder used double paddles to insure I was following through on my techniques. Further, I loved the reaction drills that we did with paddles to work on timing.

I probably would not choose TKD as my personal art. I do think that they have at least some valuable things to teach about kicking strategy and training...even if this range is not the most realistic.

Let me rephrase my last sentence. I am not a naturally good kicker. Even minimal flexbility has been a lifelong struggle for me. As a result, kicking range is not the most realistic range FOR ME.

Enjoy your TKD everyone.

David

I just can't believe how this topic has turned out. There has been a nother topic specifically set up about dislikes, but you still post.

"Taekwondo taught me that 80% of kicking techniques are a waste of time and space.
JohnL"

Dude, why did you post that, you honestly must have known that your comment was actually insulting TKD (or would be interpreted that way). I thought that the karate and other martial art guys wo don't like TKD would show enough self restraint to stay away in a topic where there opinions obviously weren't wanted.

Another good thing about TKD. Most of us have copped enough slack about our martial art that we knwo how it feels, and dont do it nearly as much to others.

when i spar,whenever i move back,i always make sure that i always have a counter to my attacker, either a turning sidekick or roundhouse. but today, i am practicing my ax kick for my counter kick. i know, ax kick isn't that effective when used as a counter kick, but hey! i can surely surprise those spectators when i would be able to land one, solid, in my opponent's face [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

the one thing i like on this forum is that we're able to have a healthy debate [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

PEACE!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
I just can't believe how this topic has turned out. There has been a nother topic specifically set up about dislikes, but you still post.

"Taekwondo taught me that 80% of kicking techniques are a waste of time and space.
JohnL"

Dude, why did you post that, you honestly must have known that your comment was actually insulting TKD (or would be interpreted that way). I thought that the karate and other martial art guys wo don't like TKD would show enough self restraint to stay away in a topic where there opinions obviously weren't wanted.

Another good thing about TKD. Most of us have copped enough slack about our martial art that we knwo how it feels, and dont do it nearly as much to others.[/QUOTE]

I train during the summer with TKD and TSD guys. They're a great bunch of guys to train with and have done so for a number of years.
I stand by my statement and see it as something the TKD has taught me.
I did not say that it taught me that 80% of TKD kicks are useless, just 80% of kicks.

As for you not wanting my opinion, hard luck.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I train during the summer with TKD and TSD guys. They're a great bunch of guys to train with and have done so for a number of years.
I stand by my statement and see it as something the TKD has taught me.
I did not say that it taught me that 80% of TKD kicks are useless, just 80% of kicks.
[/QUOTE]
i'm still confused..
anyway, as for me, as long as you know what to use in every situation, good!
TKD jins train so that we're also be able to use are legs, just like those hands in karate, efficiently and effectively.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
Have you taken TKD?

[/QUOTE]

Ive been to every single martial art dojo in my town. Ive been to 3 diff TKD places. (live in a small town) Its all BS. The art the instructors. You say you made this forum to praise and talk about what we like about TKD. Maybe alot of or majority dont see anything. Ill give some credit, pretty kicks but all BS. Sorry theres nothing to praise.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
Ive been to every single martial art dojo in my town. Ive been to 3 diff TKD places. (live in a small town) Its all BS. The art the instructors. You say you made this forum to praise and talk about what we like about TKD. Maybe alot of or majority dont see anything. Ill give some credit, pretty kicks but all BS. Sorry theres nothing to praise.[/QUOTE]

Forgot something, it built up my stamina and gave me good flexibility.

well karate kid what style karate do you do? and how old are you?

Hes 13 (and acts it) or was last time I checked.
He does Aikido (a far more realistic and practical art [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG])

Maybe there isn't alot to praise about TKD however this topic was made so that people could post positive things about taekwon-Do.

I think the idea was pretty clear, if you are going to say something bad dont post it in this topic.

Have a little look around the TKD forum there is a topic entitled something along the lines of TKD Dislikes. Post your opinions there (if they are negative).



[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 12-25-2003).]

Sorry kiwi. Alot of the stuff that we get mixed up with about TKD is that most of the dojos in americ teach the olympic not the traditional. Im sorry.

Kiwi:

Today was my first visit to this forum, and I have immensely enjoyed reading many of your posts, and your debates with some of the older martial artists here. Congratulations on your accomplishments, and on demonstrating that your maturity exceeds your physical age (and that of some of the older folks on the forum).

My first exposure to MA occurred when my wife's sons decided they wanted to enroll in a MA class. They took lessons for a couple of years thru the local park district, attaining ranks of green belt. Our son was only about 4 at the time, but enjoyed going along to the lessons to watch his older brothers. For some reason, the park district closed down the program and we were out of the MA's for a couple years. Our son, Derek, begged to enroll in lessons, and we promised him that he could join at age 6. At that point, Travis, then about 13, wanted to get back into it as well. We went to visit a local TKD dojo near our house, watched a class, talked with the instructor, etc. He is not directly affiliated with an international organization, but teaches a traditional ITF curriculum, and is a 6th dan trained under Grand Master Van Binh, who is chairman of the ITF masters promotion committee. While enrolling them, I was informed that he had a family special, by which my lessons would be free.... So, at the age of 41, in desperate need of some physical conditioning, and thinking that it might be fun to participate with the boys, I enrolled as well. I figured I'd stick it out until maybe green belt, but, as we continued in the lessons, I grew to really enjoy the lessons, and achieving black belt became a sort of quest for me. The boys, being younger, more flexible, and somewhat less concerned about injury, mastered techniques quickly, whereas, I had to work hard to achieve a level of competence. I felt that by sticking with it, I might give them a small lesson in goal-setting, perseverence, dedication, hard work, etc.

After about four years of lessons (December 2002), the three of us tested for our black belts. Travis (then 17) and I (45) both passed all five sections of the exam. Derek, then just a couple weeks shy of his 10th birthday, passed the first four sections of the test, but failed to perform the first of his required breaks, and therefore, failed the test. He retook the exam in August, 2003, and passed the complete exam. Our Master's school has been teaching since the mid-70's and has had his own school since 1982, and Derek is, by nearly two years, the youngest of his students to ever be awarded a black belt. TKD has been a wonderful bonding experience for the three of us.

Travis has since stopped taking lessons. At 17, cars, girlfriends, jobs and school have taken up all his time (although he has recently expressed an interest in getting back into it at some point).

Derek and I continue in our quest toward 2nd Dan, and he has enrolled in a Jeet Kune Do school to give him some additional depth of training.



[This message has been edited by ipscshooter (edited 12-29-2003).]

Kiwi:
Today was my first visit to this forum, and I have immensely enjoyed reading many of your posts, and your debates with some of the older martial artists here. Congratulations on your accomplishments, and on demonstrating that your maturity exceeds your physical age (and that of some of the older folks on the forum).

Thanks, that really means alot to me.

It's funny how many parents start a martial art because of their kids. My dad started TKD a couple of weeks after me and only got his black belt a year or so ago at the ripe old age of forty nine. Previous to staring martial arts he hadn't engaged in any physical activity sine his teens. Now he's a fitness fanatic (Teaches Taekwon-Do three times a week, and goes to the gym five times a week).

Thanks also Karate Kid, it takes guts to apologise and you certainly got guts.

p.s. Welcome to the forum shooter.


[This message has been edited by kiwi (edited 12-30-2003).]

Hi Shooter

So your son is a ten year old blackbelt along with Kiwi. I wonder how many 10 year olds there are with blackbelts in the ITF.
Sounds like they're falling from the sky like confetti.

And you wonder why TKD gets a bad rap.

JohnL

Thanks John, for your gracious comments dismissing his hard work. I'm sure he'd appreciate finding out that all he's done for five years is to be babysat while playing around in his pajamas. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

Derek performed everything that I did in my test, except for breaking a brick. Instead, he got to break two boards with a Sidekick #5, which I can't even begin to perform correctly, and, in deference to his size, he only had to break one board with a front punch instead of two. His katas were excellent (far better than mine), his techniques are as good or better than most of the adult black belts (he's certainly a better martial artist than I), he spars quite well, he helps our teacher in showing the younger kids how to perform their katas, he volunteers to help out around the dojo, he performs at demos and participates in state and local tournaments (and does pretty well at those). Our instructor has never before allowed someone as young as Derek to test for black belt, but, Derek performs everything on the curriculum so well, that he didn't feel it was appropriate to hold him back. And, Derek is mature and humble enough not to denigrate the accomplishments of others, based upon something that is totally irrelevant.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ipscshooter:
And, Derek is mature and humble enough not to denigrate the accomplishments of others, based upon something that is totally irrelevant. [/QUOTE]

Hi Shooter

Apologies if the post tweaked a nerve.

But, he isn't mature enough or humble enough. He's a kid. Fine, that's what 10 year olds are meant to be.

I believe that your opinion that age is irrelevant shows your own inexperience as a Martial Artist.

I look forward to watching the TKD 6 year old black belt team. Hey, if age isn't a factor.

Your opinions do nothing to promote TKD as a serious MA for study. Shame.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi Shooter

Apologies if the post tweaked a nerve.

But, he isn't mature enough or humble enough. He's a kid. Fine, that's what 10 year olds are meant to be.

I believe that your opinion that age is irrelevant shows your own inexperience as a Martial Artist.

I look forward to watching the TKD 6 year old black belt team. Hey, if age isn't a factor.

Your opinions do nothing to promote TKD as a serious MA for study. Shame.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

6 year olds? Not likely, as they would not have sufficient time to learn the techniques and the ability to perform them with appropriate level of strength. Derek put in 5 years of hard work, including 6 months of one on one private instruction from our master and is able to perform the entire curriculum as well as all of the adult black belts, save for the master, and a 17 year old 2nd Dan (who is the previous youngest black belt at the school, having achieved 1st degree just prior to his 12th birthday). What precisely is the problem with promoting 10 year old, if they have demonstrated the ability to perform the entire curriculum, and have demonstrated the perseverance, dedication, determination, courage, and hard work to achieve that goal?

I think the point is not only a matter of performance, but proficiency in application, maturity, and understanding. It is not to say that there aren't any adult black belts walking around who lack these things because there are, but an adult is more likely to have these attributes than a child. Especially a prepubecent child of 10. In fact that may be one thing that some people like about TKD. They will promote people to advanced ranks regardless of age simply based on time training and performance of technique.

Hi Shooter

This is going no-where.

Congratulations to little Derek. He is now a master.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi Shooter

This is going no-where.

Congratulations to little Derek. He is now a master.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

John stop being such a prick. If anything you need to grow up. There are 10 yearolds more mature then adults. Im 13 and kiwi is more mature then me. HECK kiwi is more mature than you and I think your like in your 60's, "hey grandpa" LOL.

KK, Kiwi is not 10, he recieved his black belt at 10. I believe he is 15 now.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
John stop being such a prick. If anything you need to grow up. There are 10 yearolds more mature then adults. Im 13 and kiwi is more mature then me. HECK kiwi is more mature than you and I think your like in your 60's, "hey grandpa" LOL. [/QUOTE]

70's actually.
I couldn't possibly have got as wise as I am in a mere 60 years. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi Shooter

This is going no-where.

Congratulations to little Derek. He is now a master.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

He is not a master. To have that title, one must be, I believe, 4th Dan or higher. 1st Dan is roughly equivalent to graduating from grade school, meaning you have mastered the basics. I'd wager that his techniques are comparable to any first dan here, regardless of age. My humble apologies that he has not yet had time to earn a Ph.D. in Eastern Philosophy, a Masters in Physical Therapy and Kinesiology, and an EMT Certificate, which apparently are prerequisites to having a black belt in your book. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/rolleyes.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by ipscshooter:
I'd wager that his techniques are comparable to any first dan here, regardless of age.
[/QUOTE]

You'd lose your money. That is an insane statement. By comparable what do you mean? They may "look as pretty" as any, but does a 10 year old have the power of any first dan here. Can he even punch a grown man in the stomach and put him down. Does he know where to strike and opponent to put him down. Does he have knowledge of pressure points and joint locks and submissions. Does he have the ability to escape and counter techniques such as those I have just mentioned? All these things are techniques of first dans on this site. And these are the bare minimum. I don't study TKD so maybe most TKD are no better than your 10 year old son, but I feel you are doing a disservice to TKD by trying to defend the ability of your son. He is probably good for a child, but please never mistake the ability of a child for that of an adult who is a "true" black belt.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by medulanet:
You'd lose your money. That is an insane statement. By comparable what do you mean? They may "look as pretty" as any, but does a 10 year old have the power of any first dan here. Can he even punch a grown man in the stomach and put him down. Does he know where to strike and opponent to put him down. Does he have knowledge of pressure points and joint locks and submissions. Does he have the ability to escape and counter techniques such as those I have just mentioned? All these things are techniques of first dans on this site. And these are the bare minimum. I don't study TKD so maybe most TKD are no better than your 10 year old son, but I feel you are doing a disservice to TKD by trying to defend the ability of your son. He is probably good for a child, but please never mistake the ability of a child for that of an adult who is a "true" black belt.[/QUOTE]

Obviously someone who weighs under 60 pounds cannot kick or punch as hard as someone who weighs 200 pounds. That would violate the laws of physics. But, he can execute the techniques with the same level of technical proficiency.

And, obviously he's not fighting grown men and taking them down with punches to the stomach. To even think that is what I meant is moronic. I'm not remotely suggesting that he could get in the ring with an adult black belt and compete physically. But, is he capable of striking an opponent and taking him down? Yes, and he has done so on many occasions, against opponents of comparable size/strength/level of training.

I thought it should have been obvious that I meant his execution of techniques within his curriculum is comparable. i.e. he can execute a TKD side kick (or whatever) as well as you can execute an Aikido joint lock. Perhaps I should have qualified the statement to TKD, as there are very few pressure point, joint lock, and submission techniques that we have learned. Most such techniques are outside of this curriculum. Did you really think that I meant he could perform techniques from other arts as well as black belts in those arts? Come on. You're just stretching things so as to diminish his accomplishments. TKD is, primarily, a striking art. So, obviously, he would not perform Wing Chun katas at the level of a Wing Chun black belt, but, he can perform TKD katas with the level of competence that a typical Wing Chun black belt can perform a Wing Chun kata. He is presently taking JKD classes to add additional techniques of trapping, locking, grappling, etc.

Hi Shooter:

"He is presently taking JKD classes to add additional techniques of trapping, locking, grappling, etc."

So now a 10 year old with his blackbelt is now cross training.

We're going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

You are clearly insane.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Hi Shooter:

"He is presently taking JKD classes to add additional techniques of trapping, locking, grappling, etc."

So now a 10 year old with his blackbelt is now cross training.

We're going from the sublime to the ridiculous.

You are clearly insane.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

I'm insane because my son wants to expand his MA knowledge by learning techniques taught in other arts? Whatever.

Our master teaches us to try to respect others. This is a lesson I am having some difficulty with right now, because I don't appreciate insults to either my sanity, nor to my son's accomplishments.

If he has demonstrated the ability to perform all of the required techniques within the curriculum, can perform all the katas, the three steps, the one steps, the sparring and has demonstrated the power to break the same pieces of wood that the adults must, then why does he not deserve the same rank? You're suggesting that even though he can perform all of the required curriculum, he must now hang about the dojo for another eight years to be recognized for what he can competently perform now? That is insane.

Hi Shooter

This all goes back to awarding kids black belts.

In addition you said yourself, "1st Dan is roughly equivalent to graduating from grade school." That is certainly not my definition of a blackbelt.

If it is yours, why are you now letting your son go to something completely different. He needs those initial skills honed, at an adult level before he gets confused by differing systems etc.

I have seen too many children do what you are suggesting your son does. They invariably quit around 15/16, believing that they know it all, without even having scratched the surface at an adult level.

As such, fine, give kids blackbelts, just don't call them martial artists. They're not.

"You're suggesting that even though he can perform all of the required curriculum, he must now hang about the dojo for another eight years to be recognized for what he can competently perform now?"

That statement apparently sums up both you and your sons knowledge of the martial arts.

JohnL

I assume that we just have very different definitions of what a black belt is. To me a black belt is not only competent against others who are the same size and age, but any opponent. To me a black belt is able to analyze techniques in kata and apply them in various situations which include pressure point strikes and submissions and joint locks and takedowns. In my opinion the purpose of studying other arts is not to develop a completely new way of fighting, but to be able to obtain a new way of approaching your own style and techniques. What you are describing is a junior black belt. A junior black belt is competent against just that, juniors, not adults. However when the term black belt is used I assume you are referring to someone who is competent against all types of opponents in all ranges of fighting. I study okinawan karate and since TKD is derived from this I assumed that it might have retained some of this, maybe I was wrong.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by medulanet:
I assume that we just have very different definitions of what a black belt is. To me a black belt is able to analyze techniques in kata and apply them in various situations which include pressure point strikes and To me a black belt is not only competent against others who are the same size and age, but any opponent.submissions and joint locks and takedowns. In my opinion the purpose of studying other arts is not to develop a completely new way of fighting, but to be able to obtain a new way of approaching your own style and techniques. What you are describing is a junior black belt. A junior black belt is competent against just that, juniors, not adults. However when the term black belt is used I assume you are referring to someone who is competent against all types of opponents in all ranges of fighting. I study okinawan karate and since TKD is derived from this I assumed that it might have retained some of this, maybe I was wrong. [/QUOTE]

Our TKD curriculum included only three or four pressure point techniques, a few joint locks (all elbow or wrist locks), and two or three aikido-like take downs (all of which he was able to perform properly). TKD is primarily a longer range, striking art, with relatively little "inside" game, and nothing on the ground. His reason for supplementing his TKD training with JKD is in recognition of this gap in TKD training. He wants to round out his techniques, not "develop a completely new way of fighting." So, on this point, I guess we agree.

With regard to the ability of black belts to fight against any opponent of any size... I've never seen a tournament run that way. He has sparred against kids who are older, and much bigger. But, even among the adult black belts, heavy weights fight other heavy weights. Light weights fight light weights. And they also separate black belt sparring classes by age. I'm 46, and I don't have any illusions that I could win tournaments against kids who are 20 something, still in their prime, faster, more limber, etc. That's why, when I compete, it's against black belts in the "Executive" division. I spar against the younger guys in class, and can reasonably defend myself, and occasionally score some good shots, but, there's a lot to be said for youth and speed. Are you suggesting that, to merit a black belt, someone who is under 5' tall and under 100 lbs (noting that there are adults with "real" black belts who are this size) should be able to hold their own against another black belt who is the size of Shaquille O'Neal?

Actually that is what I am saying. If a person develops their skills in the proper manner that person should have at least a chance of suceeding. There are ways of defeating larger and stronger opponents. However it is rare indeed that a child will have the ability to utilize such techniques. In fact I believe that in some cases his sheer size would be a hinderance. Of course Shaq is an exceptional athlete and if he were trained properly he may be able to do well. But MOST people that size are not very fast or agile and a properly trained smaller individual I think could have success against such an oppononent. In early UFCs when there were no weight divisions I have seen people defeat opponents who were over 100 pounds heavier and a foot taller. I am not talking about TKD or Karate tournaments either. A better test is one where the rules are less restrictive so that a person can truly express him/herself. Unfortunately not everyone was meant to have a black belt. Although these days anyone can earn one. Its all about standards of practice. The tournament system of TKD and most forms of karate have made them weak. MMA fighters are in general better fighters than fighters of the two previously mentioned arts because a lot of their art is based on their tournament systems which do not prepare an individual for real combat. The son of the creator of my style of karate refers to these types of tournament based techniques as dancing karate. In okinawa they used to have fights between karateka that were contests of striking and grappling very similar to the UFC. These types of contests make a person's chosen art strong because the techniques are tested in a more realistic form of combat. In those days you were not an expert or master because of your belt, but because of your skill in defeating opponents. If karate and TKD were like this then they would have retained more of the practicality that all okinawan karate once had and their black belts would command respect. Finally, if you rely on speed and fitness to beat a 20 year old at 46 you will lose, but at that age you should not rely on only these two aspects. You should have a level of fitness to not get too winded during the fight. You should rely on timing over speed, technique over strength to develop power, and break down your opponents structure to defeat him. Unfortunately the current TKD tournament system only encourages athletic ability which gives you a disadvantage. But if you and your son enjoy it then by all means have at it.

[This message has been edited by medulanet (edited 12-31-2003).]

I think the confusion stems from the fact shooter and son are studying a "Martial Sport" and not a "Martial Art".
TKD does contain pressure points(no MA doesn't, even if it is just strike here at this angle), TKD does conain take downs(throw down,sweep, then kick or hit).

It is possible that at a higher level these are taught in the system shooter is practicing. For whatever reasons(focus on sports use,tournaments) things that are in fact found in TKD have been omitted from their curriculum, at least up to the level they have achieved.

The focus of an effective MA is to train to a level where you have a chance against any opponent-not just people of same age,build. Not everyone will reach this goal, but it should still be one of the goals.
How often is your attacker in the real world going to be the same height,weight, age and fitness level?

Why don't we try and get this thread back on track.

I.E. Favorite things about TKD.

JohnL

Hi Schooter,

I have been following this "argument" for some time and I would like to address one of your comments:

"But, even among the adult black belts, heavy weights fight other heavy weights. Light weights fight light weights. And they also separate black belt sparring classes by age. I'm 46, and I don't have any illusions that I could win tournaments against kids who are 20 something, still in their prime, faster, more limber, etc. That's why, when I compete, it's against black belts in the "Executive" division. I spar against the younger guys in class, and can reasonably defend myself, and occasionally score some good shots, but, there's a lot to be said for youth and speed. Are you suggesting that, to merit a black belt, someone who is under 5' tall and under 100 lbs (noting that there are adults with "real" black belts who are this size) should be able to hold their own against another black belt who is the size of Shaquille O'Neal?"

Being from a Classical Okinawan martial art like Medulant for my Shodan test I had to full contact fight (full blows including the head) with 5 opponents in a row (2 minutes each) varying from 5'9" 180lbs to 6'3" 240 lbs and be an alternate in 4 additional fights. Take into consideration that I am 5'4" 158lbs.
A Shodan (black belt) in my opinion should be able to reasonably defend his/herself against an opponent of any size. All students who take this exam are adults (19 and older) because they can take the punishment, are mature enough, and have the physical abilities to engage in the bogu kumite.
I beleive it all comes down to what you want from your martial training. If you want to become a competent fighter covering all ranges of fighting than I believe the TKD curriculum you have been subjected to is inadequate.
If you want a bonding experience with your children, get physical fitness and increased flexibility then the curriculum is perfect for you.
I am pleased that TKD has given you a way to become closer with your children and has impacted your life. I agree that you CAN compare your son's technique and appearance with adult black belts based on the curriculum you have fulfilled.
But please take into account that most of the martial artists that post on this forum train with self-preservation in mind. They are very serious and dedicated towards complete "real world" self-defense and the idea of a 10yr old black belt who assists in class makes their skin crawl.
As a side note: being a black belt yourself I believe you should do some additional research on why TKD is such a long range art. Perhaps in your study you will find that the art also covers close quarters combat, pressure point/vital point striking and ground fighting.

Kind regards,

Raul

[QUOTE]Originally posted by nekogami13:
How often is your attacker in the real world going to be the same height,weight, age and fitness level?[/QUOTE]

In the real world, adult attacker v. adult martial arts practitioner, the likelihood is that they will be within a reasonable range of similarity in size. It is very unlikely that an attacker would outweigh me (5'10", 210 lbs), by a factor of three. But, a 10 year old, who weighs less than 60 lbs? Easy to find people who weigh three times as much. It's unreasonable to suggest that someone should be able to compete physically against another of similar rank with that much of a size differential. But, they can compete against each other in their respective ability to execute techniques.

John: Getting back on topic... I like that we are able to advance based upon our master's testing of our level of competence at performing the curriculum and his perception of our mental and emotional levels, rather than imposing artificial age limitations which have little bearing on one's ability to effectively and competently perform the required techniques. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Raul Perez:
Hi Schooter,

Being from a Classical Okinawan martial art like Medulant for my Shodan test I had to full contact fight (full blows including the head) with 5 opponents in a row (2 minutes each) varying from 5'9" 180lbs to 6'3" 240 lbs and be an alternate in 4 additional fights. Take into consideration that I am 5'4" 158lbs.
A Shodan (black belt) in my opinion should be able to reasonably defend his/herself against an opponent of any size. All students who take this exam are adults (19 and older) because they can take the punishment, are mature enough, and have the physical abilities to engage in the bogu kumite.[/QUOTE]

For what little it appears to be worth, Derek has competed in several tournaments in the age 10-11 bracket, where he had just turned 10, and some opponents were nearly 12. Some of these kids were a foot taller than him and outweighed him by a factor of about 80 lbs to 50 lbs. (Some were so big I thought that they might have been lying about their age.) It takes a good deal of courage to get in the ring when there is that much size differential. I was at a tournament recently where one of the guys in my division was about 6'6" and about 270 (of what looked like prison body builder muscle...) In the "real world", I'd be looking for a way to escape...

[QUOTE]I beleive it all comes down to what you want from your martial training. If you want to become a competent fighter covering all ranges of fighting than I believe the TKD curriculum you have been subjected to is inadequate.[/QUOTE]

And, recognizing this, he wanted to learn more. Hence, his desire to take JKD lessons. This was not something I encouraged. He perceived gaps in the TKD curriculum, and the additional training is something he wanted to do.

[QUOTE]If you want a bonding experience with your children, get physical fitness and increased flexibility then the curriculum is perfect for you.
I am pleased that TKD has given you a way to become closer with your children and has impacted your life. [/QUOTE]

I haven't been in a "real" fight in my first 46 years. I don't anticipate any in my next 30 or so... Thus, bonding and fitness were major considerations for me. From Derek, I expected other things. Focus, determination, dedication... he gave all that and more.

[QUOTE]I agree that you CAN compare your son's technique and appearance with adult black belts based on the curriculum you have fulfilled.[/QUOTE]

I'm glad someone has recognized this.


[QUOTE]But please take into account that most of the martial artists that post on this forum train with self-preservation in mind. They are very serious and dedicated towards complete "real world" self-defense and the idea of a 10yr old black belt who assists in class makes their skin crawl.[/QUOTE]

I can understand this as well. And, certainly there are some kids who go to class who do no more than muck about in their pajamas. But, those very few who don't ought to be given proper recognition. Our instructor has been teaching for over 25 years, and has been the proprietor of his own school since 1982. Derek is the ONLY 10 year old to have taken the black belt test. There has been only one 11 year old (he was almost 12) who has taken the test. It's not like our teacher hands black belts out to kids every other week.

And, again, for what little it's worth, Derek's "assistance" in class, consists of helping beginners with Chon Ji, Dan Gun, Do San,... very basic katas that he has performed hundreds of times. He helps them with their foot positions, hand positions, etc. Our Master then goes over everything with the junior student to see how he has progressed. Derek does not give any unsupervised instruction in the performance of techniques, although he is very regularly asked to demonstrate how to properly perform various kicks, etc.

[QUOTE]As a side note: being a black belt yourself I believe you should do some additional research on why TKD is such a long range art. Perhaps in your study you will find that the art also covers close quarters combat, pressure point/vital point striking and ground fighting.

Kind regards,

Raul[/QUOTE]

I thought the relatively long range nature of TKD was pretty well known. I have regularly seen comments stating that "TKD is the least effective martial art because it's got no close range or ground game". I've not, to this point, learned any ground fighting, and as stated earlier, only a few pressure point applications, locks, and the like. Derek's JKD instructor has been showing him numerous joint locks, Muay Thai style kicks and knee strikes, etc., that are all outside of our TKD curriculum.

Thank you for stating your points civilly. Very much appreciated.

De Nada Señor

Raul

Shooter,

I received my black belt last year at the age of 16. I had been in TKD for 12 years, had a hell of a testing, and I even had to get special permission from the Traditional sect of the WTF. And I still have to be evaluated every 6 months to keep my ranking. I trained just as hard as any other valid martial artist would.

And then, kids like yours come along. No offence, maybe your kid is swell at what he does. But the fact remains is that he is 10 years old. He hasn't trained as long or as hard. And I know that he isn't anywhere near my skill level. And yet, he holds the same rank and calls himself my equal. Can you see how people get frustrated?

Don't think JohnL was just picking on you. He was just explaining an occurance known as The McDojo. What happens is that some entreprenurial spirit sees a business opportunity in something completley valid, like a martial art, and then alters it so it becomes an efficient belt factory cranking out underage blackbelts that, sooner or later, smother the real meaning of a martial art. In TKD, these "instructors" lead people to believe that in X amount of time and Y amount of money, their 10 year old can become a true-life, ass-kicking, full-fledged Lord of the Fight. Yeah, maybe in the local tourney against another 10 year old, 81 pound boy.

Every art has their share of crackpots. But, just because TKD is a common occurance, its downfalls are way more noticeable.

Now please, I am in no way trying to put down your kid. I haven't seen him train, and he may be quite talented, but there is no way he is deserving a blackbelt.

Happy New Year all,
-Elle

P.S. Karate Kid, this is not an attack. I think you are a great kid and really dedicated. But I have noticed something. I have seen so many of your posts that are obviously written up in the heat of the moment. Then, I read another post that you write later completley taking back your previous opinion. (i.e. JKogas, TKD) Backpedalling. Hypocritical. And although I rarely agree with your opinions, I wish you would make one you could stick with. As a suggestion, before making a post, evaluate your post and ask if you really think that and if you will change your mind later. Thanks KK [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by elleTKD (edited 01-04-2004).]

[This message has been edited by elleTKD (edited 01-04-2004).]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by elleTKD:
Shooter,

And then, kids like yours come along. No offence, maybe your kid is swell at what he does. But the fact remains is that he is 10 years old. He hasn't trained as long or as hard. And I know that he isn't anywhere near my skill level. And yet, he holds the same rank and calls himself my equal. Can you see how people get frustrated?[/QUOTE]

Sounds more like jealousy than frustration, although I suppose it's easy to get the two emotions confused.

[QUOTE]Don't think JohnL was just picking on you. He was just explaining an occurance known as The McDojo. What happens is that some entreprenurial spirit sees a business opportunity in something completley valid, like a martial art, and then alters it so it becomes an efficient belt factory cranking out underage blackbelts that, sooner or later, smother the real meaning of a martial art. In TKD, these "instructors" lead people to believe that in X amount of time and Y amount of money, their 10 year old can become a true-life, ass-kicking, full-fledged Lord of the Fight. Yeah, maybe in the local tourney against another 10 year old, 81 pound boy.

Every art has their share of crackpots. But, just because TKD is a common occurance, its downfalls are way more noticeable.

Now please, I am in no way trying to put down your kid. I haven't seen him train, and he may be quite talented, but there is no way he is deserving a blackbelt.

Happy New Year all,
-Elle
[/QUOTE]

You're in no way trying to put him down? Please. Virtually everything you've said is a putdown. You're right that he hasn't trained as long as you. But, you said yourself, you haven't seen him train. You have no idea how hard he has trained, so you are being quite presumptuous in saying that he hasn't trained as hard. Based on what JohnL has said above, he would probably say that for at least the first 6 years, and perhaps more, of YOUR training that YOU were doing nothing more than playing around in your pajamas... And, how exactly do you "know" he isn't "anywhere near" your skill level, when you've never seen him. Scroll down the page a little, to your post on how the "360 Kick" gives you so much trouble. At his black belt test, weighing in at about 50 or so pounds, Derek broke two boards with that very kick. Sounds to me as though his skill level exceeds yours, at least in the performance of that kick... Yet you insult him by saying "well, maybe he can spar in a tourney against another 10 year old..." What I actually said above, was that when he was 10 and weighed about 50 lbs, he was sparring in the 10-11 bracket, which included kids who were almost 12 and weighed 80+ lbs and were a foot taller than him. Since you're a "model", I'm going to assume you weigh in the 100 to 120 range. Do you really think you'd beat people of equal rank who weigh 170 to 200 lbs in anything other than point sparring? At a tournament, they wouldn't even let you fight in the same bracket. Even if they let you fight against the men (and I've never seen a tournament, except "Mortal Combat" where the ladies fight against the men), you'd be in the light weight division, because the heavyweight guys would hurt you.

You use quotes around "instructor", implying that our sensei really isn't one. You call our school a "McDojo", that is nothing more than an "efficient belt factory cranking out underage black belts" (and please, JohnL wasn't just "explaining" this phenomenon - he called me "insane"), and you state that TKD has more than its share of crackpots, implying that our instructor is one... That's three insults.

I believe I outlined above that our instructor's school has been open for over 20 years, and he has had two students under the age of 12 who have earned a black belt, my son, who got his at 10 1/2 years, and another who got his at almost 12 after training for almost 7 years (this student is currently a 2nd degree black belt at age 17, and is working towards 3rd degree - I'm sure you'll be all pissy about that as well). There have been others in his school, one of whom tested at the same time I did, who trained for 10+ years before they got to test for black belt (that particular kid was almost 16 and had been taking lessons since he was 5). My other son earned his at the same time I did. He was 16 at the time, and he had trained for about 3 years at another school, and 4 years at this school.

Our instructor NEVER said anything about X amount of time and/or Y amount of money, you get a belt. While there are a minimum number of hours of lessons before which one can advance, the primary criteria is that, when you show that you can perform the curriculum at the appropriate level, you get a belt. Our instructor gives rank according to how well the student performs the curriculum, and he's not at all shy about telling a student he needs more time, or flunking a student who doesn't perform to the expected level at the test.

Hi Elle.

It's interesting to hear you say that a 10 year old shouldn't be a shodan. Why.

We were discussing this a while back when Kiwi (Another 10 year old blackbelt) was saying that age shouldn't be considered.

You say that 16 is OK (that just happens to coincide with your rank)

Kiwi and Shooter say that 10 is OK (That happens to coincide with their experience)

When I suggested that 6 year olds could be blackbelts, Shooter complained that that was silly. Why.

Also Shooter, when Elle came on and said she had trained for 10 years and was now 16, I gave her as hard a time as I'm giving you about your son.

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
When I suggested that 6 year olds could be blackbelts, Shooter complained that that was silly. Why.[/QUOTE]

I didn't use the word "silly". I said: "6 year olds? Not likely, as they would not have sufficient time to learn the techniques and the ability to perform them with appropriate level of strength." I guess "appropriate level of strength" may be a bit vague, as, our instructor only required Derek to break one board with a front punch, whereas adults were required to break two. However, on his kicks, Derek was required to break two boards, just like the adults. You've indicated that training should consist of a minimum of 540-580 hours from white belt to black. Do you mean 540-580 hours of lessons while an adult? Should children who take lessons not be able to advance at all until they are adults, or would you take into account their training while under 18 as being part of that 540-580 hours? Is this only class time, or do you also consider home practice in this amount? Do you give additional training credit for private, one-on-one lessons, or do you consider a private 1 hour lesson to be of the same quality/value as a 1 hour class lesson?

[QUOTE]Also Shooter, when Elle came on and said she had trained for 10 years and was now 16, I gave her as hard a time as I'm giving you about your son.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

I guess consistency is a good thing. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Hi Shooter.

I always hate putting times against potential acheivements. People progress at such different rates and have completely different abilities. Also I believe peoples dan grades are a very individual thing and shouldn't be compared.

If I was running a school I would separate children from adults. I wouldn't let people into the adult class untill they were 16.

All grades acheived in the childrens class would be classified as junior grades.

When they got to 16, they would be allowed into the adult class. If they had acheived junior blackbelt, they would be given a 3rd kyu belt and would work up to their shodan from there. No-one would make shodan before 18 and it is unlikely they would acheive it before they were 20.

I'm so rotten aren't I. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

JohnL

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
I always hate putting times against potential acheivements. People progress at such different rates and have completely different abilities. Also I believe peoples dan grades are a very individual thing and shouldn't be compared.[/QUOTE]

Hey, I think we are close to agreement on this one.

[QUOTE]If I was running a school I would separate children from adults. I wouldn't let people into the adult class untill they were 16.[/QUOTE]

Our school's cut-off is age 13.

[QUOTE]All grades acheived in the childrens class would be classified as junior grades.

When they got to 16, they would be allowed into the adult class. If they had acheived junior blackbelt, they would be given a 3rd kyu belt and would work up to their shodan from there. No-one would make shodan before 18 and it is unlikely they would acheive it before they were 20.[/QUOTE]

3rd kyu - That's blue belt/red stripe, correct? Three belts below 1st dan?

[QUOTE]I'm so rotten aren't I. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

heh... another agreement. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Fav things about TKD,
Increased flexibility,speed and footwork understanding applications (and limitations) of kicks, and developing defenses against strikes.
Also, although breaking is nearly without relationship to MA ability, it is so cool looking !

BTW I remember a time before McDojos when TKD fighters were highly feared for their high, hard kicks. The worm turns apparently.

I agree with JohnL's principle.

However i think that rather than pushing kids back into srd kyu, why not give them 2nd and then test them when the instructor feels that they are ready? If they are in an adult class then surely they will be expected to spar full contact with adults. And if this is a prerequiste of the grade then....

If they are not prepared to do this then they are not worthy of the belt that the adult has. Or if they cannot hold their own with the adult of the grade that they held as a junior then they should not hold that rank as a senior.

I love tkd but i see that the lack of sparring ability rarely has any effect on grading results. UNlike bjj, judo etc. I'm not sure of karate in this respect.

Shooter, you should be proud of your child as a junior blackbelt, as should any child who shows determination and guts to reach blackbelt in any MA. However i do feel that tkd would be a beter MA if the junior blackbelts had to retake their exams when they go into the senior class.

Shooter,

I wasn't trying to put down your son in any way. He may very well be good at Tae Kwon Do. I was simply trying to explain that most people, including you, think of black belt as another advancement, like from orange belt to green.

But it's not. Unlike going from orange belt to green, being a black belt means more than how many boards you can break or how big of opponets you fight. It's an attitude, and a behavior, that a red belt must take on to deserve a black belt. You have to be humble enough not to brag about how many boards you can break, how many bigger opponets you fought, or how you can do the 360 kick. Yes, you have to have the heart to do those things, but being humble about them is harder to do. You have to have integrity, and a lot of the times, kids just don't have it yet.

Now, Derek may break some boards and fight super well, but it doesn't make him a black belt. In fact, I think it would be unfair to him to expect him to have the charachteristics that comes with a blackbelt. He's only 10.

The whole "junior black belt" thing is ridiculous. You are either a black belt or not, and if you truly want the BB then you would wait until you were 16.

As far as the 360 kick, I could do it too, until I fell off a horse and got trampled, which dislocated 4 disks in my lower back. I was in rehab for awhile, and I may not have been able to sit up straight, let alone take TKD again. I think its a miracle I can even attempt the 360. So, like you said, don't speak until you know.

-Elle

age separation IMO is essential, but 16 i think is a little too high. 14 is the WTF system's main age dividing range. im 15 turning 16 and can hold myself against the 22+ yrs and also against heavier opponents. no offense meant, but shooter's child i think is too young to analyse the fight quick enough, look for openings and exploiting them and also knowing when to run or counterattack

elle, sorry for the late response. I agree, you're either ready for black belt or you are not. Our school does not award a "junior black belt". My pride in Derek's accomplishment is not the same as him being boastful or any of the other immature emotional sins that might indicate that he shouldn't be a black belt. He is proud of himself for his accomplishment, but, he is not one to brag about it to others. He's not here bragging about a 360 kick, and I thought that argument had been put to rest some time ago.

Wei: You, and others here, are welcome to your opinion about whether my son should be a black belt or not. As I've said before, the only opinion that really matters on that issue is that of our teacher, a 6th Dan, trained under the Grandmaster who chairs the ITF's Masters Promotion Committee.

Opinions only matter in rankings and in some cases only a select few can determine such matters. But when it comes to martial skills the only thing that matters is who comes out the victor. TKD these days is completely sport based. I suppose it is hard for those who solely focus on the sporting aspects of their art to understand this, but true martial aspirations are not for mere children. And too many people see black belt as a sign of a person's intention of pursing such things. However, this is not the case in these modern times. The bottom line is attaining a black belt is a personal thing and it is truly unfair for me to tell someone I have never met that they must conform to what I think a black belt should be. For some a black belt should have the maturity of an adult, for some a black belt should have the skill and determination of a full contact champion, for some a black belt should have the focus of the old masters who are long gone. I think the truth is the black belt truly means nothing in this day and age. The only thing that matters is skill and what you do outside the dojo, combative or otherwise. Be a good person, treat others with kindness, and stand up for what you believe in, if you don't you will fall for anything.

Medulant you beat me to the punch! And to be honest you put it better anyway. I agree with you completely.

Regards,

Raul

Oh please you trouble makers!!! Sorry but I can't stand this. Even tough, I'm not a TKD guy.

If you studied TKD before it became so sportly you wouldn't be saying this. Suppose someone re-introduced the applications, provided a means of conditioning and strenghting, incorporated a functional training method.

Nothing is wrong with TKD, it's just the way it is trained that's all.

I think in most part why aerial kicking is used so much in competition is to attract people and offer something different from Karate. Otherwise, two representations of simular things would be boring.

Some people simply train more for self-defense than others.


There was a robbery that made the headlines recently in my City. A TKD master from Korea, also an ex-Korean military man, took apart an assault rifle aimed at him with one strike and reduced it to screws, nuts, wood and scrap metal. He took a beating but, how many of you can be as brave as he was? (he also gave the crooks a beating too and chased them outside to smash their windshield. It happend here in Scarborough and made the pulse 24 news.

[This message has been edited by Shotokan (edited 02-22-2004).]

Shotokan, I don't think anyone ever said the original TKD was garbage. We are just saying that the sport TKD is garbage. Just like most of the point karate is garbage. The only legit point fighter in karate I have ever seen is Wayne Otto. There may be one or two sport TKD guys who are legit as well. But on the whole the way TKD is practiced the best thing a person will get from it is a good stretch.

Not all of it is garbage. You can train kicking high and kick low on the streets. Alot of styles (even Kung Fu styles) do that.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Karate kid:
ive never seen TKD help me in life. The funest part? I would say listening to the instructor talk nonsense about how AWESOME the art is.[/QUOTE]


Because you dont know what your doing !!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by JohnL:
Taekwondo taught me that 80% of kicking techniques are a waste of time and space.

JohnL[/QUOTE]

Come here and let me kick you then !! Im tired of com'n to this sight and seeing all the negative talkaboput MA. I dont know if its because these people hae not studied long enough, dont have any basic fighting instincts to begin with or are all little kids.

Kickshard

I think you, as others, have misundertood my post. Check through the remainder of the thread.

I did not say that TKD taught me that 80% of TKD kicks are a waste of time and space, just that 80% of kicks were.

If you disaagree with this, fine state your opinion. I did not criticise TKD in this thread, I said I had learnt something from it.

I see this as a positive.

JohnL

http://www.zanshin-shotokan.com.au/gallery/nswdojo/sylvania/index.htm

Look how well those kicks can work when combined with trapping and locking.

It's a Shotokan site, but they are still high level kicks.

How do these pictures of people demonstrating techniques prove their effectiveness. Climbing up on a ladder and doing an elbow drop on someone is effective if the person stands there and lets me do it.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shotokan:
http://www.zanshin-shotokan.com.au/gallery/nswdojo/sylvania/index.htm

Look how well those kicks can work when combined with trapping and locking.

It's a Shotokan site, but they are still high level kicks.[/QUOTE]

If I have you trapped and locked why wouldn't
I just throw you down and kick you in the head?
Why would I risk my balance or control by going up on one leg?

I also think that most kicks are a waste of time (from a self defence point of view). I say that as someone who loves karate and who CAN do all the kicks to the head quite easily.

In case anyone doubted it, I can vouch for the fact that John can also kick well and high.
Sharon

I just find it hard to belive that you wouldn't think what you said could be interpreted the wrong way John. Saying 80% of kicks are a waste of time when were talking about an art that is considered to be mainly kicking is always going to cause offense.

If I said 80% of grappling is a waste of time to a Jodoka then he would probably be offended.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
I just find it hard to belive that you wouldn't think what you said could be interpreted the wrong way John. Saying 80% of kicks are a waste of time when were talking about an art that is considered to be mainly kicking is always going to cause offense.

If I said 80% of grappling is a waste of time to a Jodoka then he would probably be offended. [/QUOTE]

If I told a Judoka that 80% of grappling was a waste of time and the statement had any vaidity, I would hope he would see it as constructive and something positive.
Unfortunately the statement is a load of crap and he would quite rightly be offended.

On the other hand, I stand by my statement on kicking. Having pointed this out to the TKD guys, I hope that rather than be offended you would take it as something positive.

As my base style is karate, the statement applies equally to what I do. I just learnt it from TKD/TSD guys.

JohnL

wow JohnL you like to say alot of shit in EVERY chat room. u say 80% of the kicks are useless? then 80% grappling is useless, 80% tripping techniques(judo) is useless, 80% gumdo/kendo(sword training) is useless, 80% weapons basic movement is useless.
now that is a ridiculous statement
u never SAID 80% of those other things were useless, but if u say kicking is. then obviously i could say all those other things are useless as well.

also, maybe 80% of them were useless beacuse u were never good at the basic movemetns? you ask any good martial artist Jackie Chan, Jet Li, Jhoon Rhee. they will say that basic movements are the most important. TKD olympians practice kicking at least 1200 times STRAIT roundhouse kick, same with Tiger woods. is he a dumnbass to hit over 1000 golfballs a day? he says he does 9-irons over 200 times. why? because of course ppl say "short game" is the most important, but so is the basic movement of getting the ball there and then yo umove from there.
same thing with tkd, if you suck at ur basic movement, then it is a given that 80% of your other kicks will suck.
or perhaps, i've considered you are just the typical wannabe streetfighter who mauls at another persons face and whoever can hit faster wins.
sigh::.. thats not worthy of a fight

jINhYuNG ahN

I don't think you are getting what he is saying. Tiger woods hits that many golf balls because he is a golfer and he needs to be good at golfing. TKD players do a lot of kicks because that is almost the only thing that scores in TKD matches and it is the majority of the sport. He is saying that in real fighting, not sport fighting, most kicks are useless. You are right the basics are good. Front kick, side kick, roundhouse kick, and back kick. However, we all know that these are only 20%(if that) of the kicks contained in TKD and many other arts. Although these kicks may work the 360 Tazmainian devil kick is probably useless.

As an instructor in WTF Tae Kwon Do, I can say that many of the kicks in TKD cannot be applied in an actual fight, however there are some kicks that can be used to devistating effects. For example, stopping an advance using a well placed dee chagi will in most situations knock the wind out of your opponent, and at the very least create an oppening in him/her.

Also, TKD is most effective when combined with other styles. I have studied quite a few martial arts, and I must say, Tae Kwon Do has some of the best speed training and footwork training I have seen, and when you combine that with styles like kempo or even GJJ the results are pretty satisfying.

Another reason to train 80% in kicks is...you use your hands every day to do things dexterity abled. Writing, typing, driving, playing video games...how many times do you write with your feet? Type with them? Play the playstation with them? Eat with them?

That is why the extra empathsis is on training feet at times over hands...

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uriel:
Another reason to train 80% in kicks is...you use your hands every day to do things dexterity abled. Writing, typing, driving, playing video games...how many times do you write with your feet? Type with them? Play the playstation with them? Eat with them?

That is why the extra empathsis is on training feet at times over hands...[/QUOTE]

What?! If you do not train your hands for fighting no amount of dexterity will help you when fighting. Therefore eating and playing playstation are not substitutes for training in striking and grappling with the hands and arms. The bottom line is to train what works for you. If you believe that a head high roundhouse kick will save your life then by all means train it. But don't try to say that your hands are already lethal weapons from playing video games and typing paragraphs on some internet forum so there is little need to train in striking techniques with your hands. Give me a break!

Did I say that you don't train hands? Nope. I said that the reason why feet are trained *MORE* than hands is because the feet need *MORE* work than hands.

Read before you...type.

Hi darkesthours:

I happen to agree with your post, although if you accept that TKD is a striking art then it stands on it's own pretty well.

If you want to combine it with something else, I'd suggest a grappling art would be a good one. (I'm presuming that GJJ was a typo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG] )

JohnL

I read, and I think you should train the most what you use the most in a fight. Like I said if you kick more in a fight then you should train your feet more, but if you use your hands more in a real fight then you need to train them more, and playing video games and typing don't cut it. I think YOU need to read before you type.

Two things..

JohnL...I *ALSO* thought GJJ was a typo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

The other guy...dude come back when you have a degree in body mechanics or at least something that resembles one.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Uriel:
Two things..

JohnL...I *ALSO* thought GJJ was a typo [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

The other guy...dude come back when you have a degree in body mechanics or at least something that resembles one.[/QUOTE]

Silly me, I forgot, typing and playing videos games are just like fighting. You have converted me, TKD for Life!

med,

Thank you for proving my point on you missing the entire scope of my posts.

Again...thank you..drive through.

Medulanet & Uriel,Plz don't start another flame war. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]

Don't worry, I'm done. Uriel is absolutely correct, I am missing the scope of his posts. I don't think I will ever train kicks more than punches no matter how much dexterity I gain through playing video games. To each his own.

[This message has been edited by medulanet (edited 04-20-2004).]

Wow you really like to kill a point don't ya?

I think this has to be *MY* fav thing about TKD [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Didn't we say there was *always* one in every group?

I know this is about somthing different but im going to get my black belt soon. Im 14 5'7" 145 ibs. and i spar some men around my size. Do you think i deserve the black belt?

I just read 97 long posts.

I'm so proud of myself!! [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

This question is to Wadowoman, JohnL, and the rest of the forum members that do not practice TKD; does your style, whether it is shoto, wado, bjj, ad infinitum, award the blackbelt to children? is there a differentiation for the belt that signifies the holder is a child? and if TKD is a martial sport (and not an art or combat system) why not award a black belt to a child?
Does ANYONE here study a striking or grappling style/art, that does not allow its members to participate in tournaments?
I train at a location where the emphasis is on fighting. We do not have forms, we do not bow upon entering the mat (we do show respect to everyone and treat the class with seriousness). We do not use japanese nomenclature. We do, however, participate in full contact kickboxing, MMA tournaments, and also grappling tournaments. We have no children and we also award no belts. Would this be considered a sport or a fighting school? I see it as fighting, and as such, an ART....we hit focus pads, heavy bags, each other (I got my first bloody nose last night, didn't keep my hands up). We wear all the safety gear we can; head, foot, shin, mouthguard, cup. We practice groundfighting and grappling. We condition ourselves with stretching and lots of bodyweight exercises in preperation for a true fight or a contest. Does this mean my school is less (or more) meaningful than another's school??

thank you for any response (sorry for the length)
kell

[QUOTE]Originally posted by hunterkell:
This question is to Wadowoman, JohnL, and the rest of the forum members that do not practice TKD; does your style, whether it is shoto, wado, bjj, ad infinitum, award the blackbelt to children? [/QUOTE]
Since you're asking JohnL, shouldn't that be "ad nauseum"? [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/wink.gif[/IMG]

Sorry John... Just wanted to get #100 in the thread.

well, what I like about taekwondo is:
1. the dobok
2. sparring and pad work
3. high kicks
4. the hi-speed action
5. the fun activities (we play kicking pad games at my dojang)
6. the fact that it teaches respect and discipline

well i know that this issue was talked about like 2 pages back, but i study WTF and it took me about 2-3 years to get my first black belt.,

Hey Kiwi, I've trained in the arts for 25 years and hold multiple blackbelts but TKD is where I began. Back in the day our school had the best fighters in the area bar none. I have trained with grapplers, karateka, aikidoists, jkd, kenpo, and kung fu and was able to kick the crap out of 90% of any school I visited. I've used TKD kicks in real self defense situations. I believe the bad rap on TKD is because most schools teach only point sparring and forms because it's best for business and Koreans are notorious for "slicky boy" business operations. I lived with a Korean for a year while in grad school and had a fight with a bonifde Korean blackbelt during the Halloween dance. This individual was the elder of the other orientals and thought this gave him the right to bully them all. That night I had all I could take of him and his attitude and called him on it. This embarassed him and he felt it necessary to settle with fist and feet. I KO'd him with a spinning elbow smash to his jaw in the middle of the dance floor and earned the admiration and nickname of "tiger" from the other Koreans. He did not bully the others from that day on. My point is that TKD spinning techniques are just one ofmy most formidable self defense techniques. True TKD is as valid as any other art. I've seen other styles who water down their training or ignore self defense in lieu of sports orientation, only TKD schools seem to do this more than others. But don't let others get you down, what is important is why you train and what you are getting from your practice of TKD.

My favorite things of TKD are the technique training, meeting new peaple, kicking the **** out of the bags, and training period.
TKD has helped me become more mellow, calm,
confident, honest to my self and others, and much more polite. I used to be a stuck up little brat, but that all changed when my bro, who is now not that good in MAs but smarter than i will probably ever be, kicked me literally half way across a room i leaned a great important lesson, don't piss anyone twice your size and age off.
I used to have a major anger problem but 7 1/2 years of MA stopped that to (anger management only pisses u off more.)
have a very nice day.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kiwi:
"I really wanted to post this topic because we get alot of heated arguments and negative comments in threads (Most necessary things that help us understand each others views). Would be cool to have a few more positve comments about TKD in this forum."

Can I make it any clearer, this is for praising TKD, if your going to be negative post on one of the other topics.[/QUOTE]
____________________________________________
THANK YOU VERY VERY VERY VERY MUCH. LISTEN TO THIS PERSON HE/SHE WILL MAKE YOUR LIFE SO MUCH EASIER.
again thank u. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

i am a 2nd degree black belt in taekwondo.
that biased against kicks is bull. obviously the beautifull kicks are useless but they are not for defence.

I do dislike the americanization and commercialization that is happening to all martial arts. I became frustrated when i saw undeserving kids recieve their black belt, so i understand. But lots of people deserve the BB. I did. but most dont its true.
big news... karate is just as bad. it is the most commercialized art out there. more kids i know who are not serious about martial arts study karate than other arts. at least this derek kid seems focused(although he is a BIT young)tkd does teach what it takes to be a black belt.
I know that every day i assume the role of a black belt. that includes physical fitness as well as moral character, and self controll. karate is not better than tkd. its just practiced more widely. tkd is an excellent beginners art.(no offence, especially since its all ive taken) mainly because it teaches the important things!

self control
discipline
RESPECT!!!
honor
perseverance
integrity
technique
sparring.

once a person masters these (as young derek seems to have) then he is ready to become a martial artist.

ps my fave thing about tkd. the fact that i can now break two boards jumping over four people(side to side)bent to waist high. (did that at a demo it was freakin sweet)

[This message has been edited by salsmanm (edited 11-23-2004).]

what i like about taekwondo is that it has increased my life to the point where i am not afraid, i can walk down the road at night with confidence.

Also What i love about every martial art is that when you join you are so nervous, but much later on, you are calm, confident strong, and at peace.

my fave part is sparring and the special techniques, like arm locks. i also like the philosophies.

the thing about TKD is wee ones can be BB because the are profisient in what they learn the know the stuff so now the learn to apply it...'white belt is the begining of learning, black belt the the begining of understanding' - i dunno who said it first

As you can tell by the name, yes, I have studied TKD (along with various other arts). My favorite thing about TKD was the discipline, conditioning, timing, and foot work it helped me to develop. Also, my hand speed increased tremendously while practicing TKD. I have since studied traditional Japanese styles, Northern Style Kung fu, and Grappling Arts. I have found a definite benefit to the time I spent in TKD. All the basic skills you learn there help you in any other Art you study. And no Art is applied exactly as you learn it. You modify it for your situation and circumstance. If you are fighting an opponent who uses mostly western boxing, you may be able to beat him to the punch with a well placed low roundhouse as he fires off his jab, giving you the distance to counter out of his reach. Using a low cut kick roundhouse to the back of a knee might work well to upset his balance or timing as he moves in and sets his weight to punch or clinch. All styles have a benefit, some times the challenge is find and apply it. TKD is no different.

Everybody else has said something, so I thought I would too. I don't know as much about strictly "traditional" TKD as some, but I can give you my expierience. The style I study is based on TKD. Our system does incorporate other MA, ie.Okinawan Karate & Kung-fu, but starts and ends with TKD. I have found that the truely committed practitioners of the art are VERY profiicient fighters! I cannot claim to be an outstanding fighter myself, but most of those I study with are. A lack of self-defence applications, in our sytem at least, is not the "reality" that many claim. No style is perfect, TKD is no exeption, but it does work if used skillfuly! I have taken enough kicks, and punches for that matter, to know this first hand! I know that MANY people still believe that TKD cannot be used effectively on the strret.What I don't know however, is where this absurd idea comes from. Poor instruction maybe? Perhaps there is too much emphasis in many cases on the sport applications, and not enough emphasis on the principles involved in the effective uses of TKD on the street? Nobody I train with, who has run into a need to defend themselves on the street, has ever had a problem doing so! In my view, that's all that really matters! Peace!

my favorite thing 4 TKD is both sparing & patterns my pattern is called Won Hyo Its quite difficultwith one move the second circular block its the one thing that my instructor pulls me up 4 but i still like the pattern
[IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

Won Hyo, now theres a pattern I havent done for a while.

As for people hacked off at TKD, there are always ppl who think theirs is better than everyone elses. Im 6'5" and TKD suits me. Im too tall for judo, Karate is too elegant with its fancy pants katas, which leaves kick boxing and I wanted to do a martial art so TKD had to be the choice. We dont have a massive choice of MAs where I live and I dont really want to travel for miles either.

Besides, if we wanna get funny about it, I thought karate was all about chops and stuff. Cos Im tall I got long legs which means you gotta be DARN good to get in close to me. When I evade I evade to my leg length.

Respect to all MAs, I love TKD cos of the mad kicks, and the kids certainly respect one another in the dojo. If they think they are the mutts nuts then us adults soon take them down a peg or two.

Peace and Respect

Scott

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Nitronix:
Im 6'5" and TKD suits me. Im too tall for judo, Karate is too elegant with its fancy pants katas, which leaves kick boxing and I wanted to do a martial art so TKD had to be the choice.[/QUOTE]

I don't see how Karate can be too elegant with fancy pants kata, but not TKD. It's the same material.

hehe... first post here... OK Umm I *LOVE Tae-Kwon-Do... Why? u ask well... I personaly like the tennants(SP?) Courtesy, Integerity, Perseverence, Self Control, Indomitable Spirit. Pretty easy to follow and understand... I'm 15 so u can put me in a category of immature if u want but... I have to agree on the part about kids 10- is a stupid idea... mostly due to the kid thinking that he is your boss and he is permitted to give push ups. there are 2 kids in my dojang that are black belts... one is almost ten ant the other is like7 or something... [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/frown.gif[/IMG]. but Other then that I *LOVE Tae-Kwon-Do. [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/tongue.gif[/IMG]

Forms Power and Hardness !!

i have been reading this fav thing about tkd i fly the ITF flag and as for handing out bb like candy this is not true infact i find it is harder to grade in the itf and it shows when you see a open competition not to say there maybe some itf money making clubs that do this but this is not the norm for most

Hey shooter congrats for your kid. I just wanted to say I think its great how well he's doing and that I dont see any difference between your child and anyother black belt out there.

To agree with all the critics out there he probably couldn't take down a 20 year old black belt in sparring but then again if he's goin' to run into trouble it's more likely he'd be fighting someone of his own age in school which i assume with his abilities he could defend himself more then well.

And hey, maybe he isnt the worlds strongest man but if he can defend himself and others isn't that what it's all about [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/smile.gif[/IMG]

That I don't train it.

i dont do TKD but i do a martial art that has some of its roots in TKD the thing i love about TKD is the 360 turning kick i know it's kinda short sighted but i just love them SO MUCH FUN

My fav thing about TKD is the fact that it is not something everyonecan do and be good at ya know like boxing or running. it takes so much flexibility, strength, and a lil bit of immagination to pull off some of the most incredible moves TKD is the **** .

Anybody who has just done what I have done and read all of the 100+ posts is probably feeling pretty tired. Plus no one is going to read this any way (cause its gone for so long).

I am 22, Australian, and have been practising TKD for 4 years now (since start of 2000). I view it not as a martial sport (as some critics would categorise it) but as a full Martial Art. When all is said and done TKD has a specific focus, as all MA's do. It is not the end all MA but one that focuses the body to a particular fighting style.

Yes I would agree that some teachers will put students up into belts that they do not deserve, mostly so that the kids will come back and keep paying fees. In my club (where I help teach) we will only allow students to grade when they have demonstrated to us that they are at the right level in terms of technique understanding of the art and ability. We do have some kids who will come for the pure pleasure of being little *****, and these will usually not progress beyond a certain level.

As to the validity of TKD in real fighting. The sport like art that is pushed by most schools will not stand a chance against someone who knows what they are doing. But for those who study TKD as a proper martial art and have mastered its techniques stand a very good change of inflicting a lot of damage in a real fight. Try saying that TKD is useless in a fight to a grand master would be the TKD MA equivelant of suicide.

As for the use of kicks and punches. The kicks used in TKD its major asset. The development of TKD techniques has lead to TKD having some the most fastest and powerful kicks there are. The use of "fancy" kicks often is not necessary, but if used correctly, as they should be taught, they can have devastating consequences.

and now onto punches and blocks. The punches, blocks, stances and movements use in our patterns and fighting techniques have been developed to be as efficient and effective as possible. As stated before by other posters if your basics are excellent and learnd properly then you will evolve into a very capable fighter.

Anyway, to answer the forum question. My favorite thing about TKD is that you are taught a self defence system that is practical (if used correctly). In our club we also try to teach our kids that TKD is a means for hurting someone, and the responsibilities and consequences that come with that ability. Self control is the quintessential key to any MA. Without control you have failed to learn what most MA try to teach, that it is better to run than to fight (you don't get hurt as much).

Oh and just for your information the cut off age for TKD in Australia is 15. Junior black belts are awarded a Poom (junior black belt ranking). When they are classified as a Senior, 16, they are awarded their Dan grading.