Need some of your expert advice please

...and that wasn't sarcasm. I know enough to know that a lot of gyms/dojos are just gimmicks, and they they do not give very much benefit. I also know enough to know that there are gys/dojos that offer REAL training, in an effective art form.

I need to know which this place is. I am thinking about joining it. The guy said though that they work on ground work one week, throws and locks another, then strikes the next, and alternate that way. Does that seem like a good way to train? I apologize for my ignorance on this topic, but I know with weight training, doing squats one week, deadlifts the next, and then bench press would get you NOWHERE.

Also, how about the styles. They use a lot of crazy looking words, but is it legit, or is it just based on some fu-man-chu guy who spent his life sitting atop a mountain trying to move hot dogs with his mind? I am VERY interested in judo and ju-jitsu and this is close by, I would just like to know your opinions because after reading a LOT of posts here, I trust this place as a very good and balanced source of information.

And again, I hope that I do not come across as cynical, arrogant, or condescending, I have a HUGe amount of respect for martial artists and their arts.....when it is the real deal. So to end this rant, please help me gauge the 'mc-dojoness' of this place please.

thanks in advance

Here is what they are calling it:

" Instructors Glen Pitcher, Karen Partington and Norm Jolin teach a complete martial arts system including hand and foot strikes, blocks, throws, chokes, joint locks, nerve techniques, and weapons training. Chokushin is the intergration of Daito-Ryu Aiki-jutsu, Kito-ryu Jujutsu and Tenshin Shinyo-Ryu Jujutsu. Musubi Dojo operates in the Oshawa area (Ontario, Canada). "

the only way to properly guage it would be to make a visit or two and trust your instincts. the idea of a "complete martial arts system" just focusing on one aspect per week seems a bit strange but hey, it's their dojo. as for all the lineage stuff, some are into that. What are you in it for? I found it interesting at first in my JJ class then came to realise we spent more time listening to tales of feudal Japan than actually practicing the techniques!

If you're seeking a MA for self defence, then your instructors' experience is more worthy than their lineage. Have they worked the doors, security etc? It's like my MMA instructor actively competes but my brother's instructor has never done a competition in his life. I know who I'd rather follow.

An art is only as good as the person teaching it, so you could either rely on the (in)accuracies of Google or meet these instructors yourself.

Hi,

Lots of people train and not yet ready to 'hang a shingle' or in this case start or represent a "new style" where their main founder (if even one exists) has proven experience.

1.) The point of visiting and watching is good, see if they will let you (gratis) attend 1 -2 of each of the separate weeks (that would be a good sign, show respect and help clean dojo after workout, after class banter and attitude can reveal a lot) and as was just mentioned...if you like it and it feels right go for it. Avoid long term contracts unless there is a clause deferring time out for injury

2.) As with most things Martial, tho the practice of X/Y/Z are separated, after or before class there will probably be someone of higher rank around to practice what was last weeks stuff. The onus of learning is on you anyway.

ex #1- There was a point in Aikido where Oshima Sensei was to leave for Japan for a while, and he taught the last 3mos before in such a fashion-"sets of 5" he called it, 1 to 2 classes were say 5 different uke attacks, and, as nage, use only ,say nikyo (irimi and tenkan, really 10). Tween all the locks and throws available (irimi and tenkan to gorund to pin)in 3mos it was rare we revisited a particular principle-it was ask high rank and take ukemi to get chance to be nage for a while. It works but takes longer to advance... which is a good thing

ex #2: The GPD officers kinda get the shaft from all ends (Not paid enough, no gratis ammo for range time and some other things) while I noticed GPD SWAT had it much better in some respects (free ammo for range time, pay still not commensurate, Training...Ahhh), these were the weekend sessions I was lucky enough to be invited to attend (Those I legally could, was bummed when denied night training rappelling down gainesville mall or an area HS), the Training was as you point out "piecemeal", but when I asked I was told that the part I did not see were open times at the police academy here where it was "lets refresh this"

Breaking up ground/throw/lock is slower to develop spinal reflexes but they do develop.

3.) Is there a code of ethics, is there a curriculum plan or at least acknowledged set of skills to be mastered prior to "advancement" and a minimum time before such if testing even occurs, The MMA guys renting space in my old dojo just practiced and learned-no worry rank-prove by doing (a belt is just one more thing I can use against you) (tho makes a nifty quick short chain whip, the belt for pants that is)

Luck finding what you want, if it feels wrong it probably is. ( If you cant do something smart, do something right ???)

Karl. Peace.

So is this place more about ju-jitsu, or aikido?

It says CHOKUSHIN, which apparently is the integration of Daito-Ryu Aiki-jutsu, Kito-ryu Jujutsu, and Tenshin Shinyo-Ryu Jujutsu. So this should be more of a jujitsu style right? I would rather do jujtsu than aikido. I mean no offense to any practitioners of aikido, but in my experience with it, it does not seem like something I would want to study on it's own. Perhaps as a complement to another art.

Also, I talked to the sensei, and he confirmed that they do one week on throws, the next on ground work, the next on striking, and then put it all together in week 4. Does this seem like a good idea to you guys? It seems to me that what is essentially practicing each component one week a month wouldn't be that beneficial.

Kahless

Posted in your other thread too. Please read.

Is this the place?:

http://www.aiki-ju-jutsu.com/

&

http://www.musubidojo.com/

It sort of confirms what I thought: they are basically a bunch of people who seemed to have studied Judo and Aikido (plus it seems Ninjutsu???) and are trying to pass it off as a traditional Japanese system.

Problem I have with this is that they have made up a style based on their own experience (nothing wrong with that necessarily) but are very clearly trying to pass it off as "An Ancient Japanese system". As ancient as a Japanese system by some Aikido-ka, judo-ka & ninjas from 21st century Canada can be....

It would be good if someone from the orginization could come on here and clarify what it is they do and what it is they learnt. I mean that in a non-pugnacious, cordial way. It is only to help a forum member understand what he is going to be learning.

As I said in the other thread Kahless, if you like what they teach, like the people, and it seems like a good place to learn, then go for it.

It you are set on learning a traditional, genuine Japanese MA, then this might not be the place for you.

Thanks a lot again for the helpful replies, and sorry about the delayed response. Due to an injury, I had to put off checking this place out. But I am am feeling good and I think I am going tomorrow. I'll let you know what I think.

And no, that isn't the place, it is this one: http://musubidojo.com/

I talked to the instructor, and he seemed like a very level headed, down to earth guy. He also didn't seem to get ackward when I questioned him about his style like other instructor's have in the past (Shaolin-Do Kempo Karate???)

He also talked about his experiences in law enforcement, and the practicality of his teaching, which is what I am going for. Whether I compete or not, it is really being able to better defend myself, and loved ones that I care most about.

Anyway, thanks again, and I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Oops, just saw the musubidojo link you posted now, so sorry, yes that is the place.

Here is a PDF file that describes the techniques for beginners in the Chokushin Ju-Jutsu system. Does this stuff all seem pretty similar to regular jujitsu?

http://www.aiki-ju-jutsu.com/Docs/web-BEGINGID.pdf

Fair enough, if you are happy there go for it. The stuff on the website re DR is BS though. Notice the way they talk at length about DR Aiki Jutsu, but only mention that they teach Aiki Jutsu. Funny the way they dropped the DR part.

It would lead someone to believe they are learning DR Aiki Jutsu, whereas in fact they are learning no such thing. Again, I don't know why someone would put this on a website, as the whole thing is pretty dubious. It hurts more than it helps IMO.


Once again, there is no evidence they have studied any classical DR, Kito Ryu or Shindo Tenshin Ryu in any shape or form. If you play Ice Hockey, you don't go round telling people you play rugby. If I study Aikido, I don't tell people I have studied DR. If I study Judo, that doesn't mean I have studied Kito Ryu or Tenshin Ryu directly, as the site infers.

The thing is the teachers are probably good at what they do, and you clearly like the club so you should defintely try it out. I just don't get why there is all the pseudo-samauri nonsense on the website. As I said, it hurts more than it helps.

Well, I have no idea if I like the club or not. I only talked to the guy on the phone so far, and he seemed like a good guy. As for the way they train, that is a different matter. Also, I am not knowledgeable enough to know better I am afraid. I am still a little confused about whether this is more jujitsu, or akido. Hahahaha any do you have any idea? I think I would really like jujtsu and/or judo, but this is the only jujitsu place, and the only judo club in town teaches it only 2 days a week as a complement to a teakwondo program at a hefty price.

So what do you think, more jujitsu or aikido?

It does say they teach DR though, but it is under the chokushin section.


"Chokushin is the intergration of Daito-Ryu Aiki-jutsu, Kito-ryu Jujutsu and Tenshin Shinyo-Ryu Jujutsu. Musubi Dojo operates in the Oshawa area (Ontario, Canada). "

and here

"Chokushin Aiki -Jujutsu Is a traditional martial art that is an integration of three ryu’s (schools), these being Daito Ryu Aiki-Jujutsu, Kito Ryu Jujutsu and Tenshin Shinyo Ryu-Jujutsu. Musubi Dojo also incorporates aspects of Togakure Ryu Nijutsu in its densho. The densho (curriculum) of Chokushin Aiki Jujutsu engages all ranges of fighting from standing and striking to grappling and ground fighting. The Musubi Dojo also includes traditional and contemporary weapons such as sword, stick, and knife who’s techniques originate from Togakure Ryu Ninjutsu. However, Chokushin Aiki-Jujutsu not only encompasses fighting, but also embraces meditation, physical fitness, tradition, and philosophy. All of which promote self-confidence; self esteem, peace of mind, and respect for self and others."


thanks a lot for helping me figure this all out btw, I don't know anyone knowledgable enough in the martial arts to help me.

If I had to guess, it looks like Aikido mixed with Judo plus some striking. Again, it is pretty unlikely they studied DR, Kito Ryu and TS Ryu directly. Those are pretty rare styles to find outside of Japan, let alone all three together.

They are the styles that influenced Aikido (DR) and Judo (KR & TSR) though. I think it is a fair bet that the people who created this style actually studied Aikido and Judo, but in order to make it sell and sound more impressive, they are making out they studied DR/KR/TSR directly, which as I said is pretty unlikely (they have no names of teachers/lineages they studied for with for any of these arts, for example).

Shaolin-Do Karate, from what I have read, has some critics who say it is essentially a mixture of Japanese/Chinese systems, with little evidence it is associated with Shaolin in any way.

If it were me (and I have been in a similar situation) I would query why it is these people feel the need to dress up what they are doing. Why not call a spade a spade?

I have nothing against martial arts styles that are open and honest about what it is they teach. Just because something isn't a Koryu system doesn't mean it is worthless or without merit. These people seem to think the reverse is true, and have to disguise what it is they are doing. I think that is a shame as it takes away from what it is they are actually teaching.

When it comes down to it Kahless, you have to make up your own mind. You seem to indicate there aren't many options in your neck of the woods at the moment. As a good friend once told me, bad options are better than no options.

Do what you think is best.

All of this makes a lot of sense, I think I'll just go try it out.

However, I actually discovered another jujitsu club here in town.

http://www.kumojiujitsu.com/

Seems like a pretty good place, they enter (and win) a lot of tournaments etc, but couple things threw me off. First, he said that the cost was 800 dollars for ten months and that GUARANTEES your first two belts. I don't know if he meant that it covered the cost of getting them? I found that odd though.

The other place I was talking about, only charges 45 dollars a month, and the instructor said this is because he has a day job, and he does this because he loves it and to spread his art.

Man, I had no idea all of this was so complicated hahahaha. I also found a wing chun place, and the guy on the phone was quite eager to mention that his teacher's teacher taught Bruce Lee......seemed sketchy. At this point, either this town is full of places with dubious motives, or I have mcdojo paranoia.

I don't care if they could make me a Vale Tudo world champion in 10 months, $800 is obscene for MA lessons.

Anywhere that guarntees belts based on attendance would concern me too. You are right to be wary.

I sent you a PM. Check your mail please.

http://www.kumojiujitsu.com/

"Hanshi Darrell LaFrance is the founder of Kumo Jiu Jitsu, is ranked as a 9th degree black belt by the Sokeship Council under the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame"

That would be enough to stop me right there. Anything associated with the World Martial Arts Hall of Fame is suspect.

To be honest, just go to the class and study / train hard for a year. It will take at least a year to get basic competence in the basics and a foundation of how to move in new ways etc anyway. Then you can think about carrying on with that style or finding a new style etc.

Stop over analysing it. In some regards the internet is a curse rather than an aid.

Just get stuck in.

Dongdwaeji,

What a totally oblivious recommendation you just gave the guy.

Just go to the class and give them you money without getting what you want?

You sir are the perfect clientele, I'd love to sell you stuff, cuz you'd be more than happy to give me your hard earned money in return for nothing.

-Donnie

Hello Everyone

I will introduce myself in the appropriate area of the board but would like to take a moment to reply to this thread as it concerns me and my dojo.

First off I would like to say that I think it is a good thing for people to seek out advice on boards such as this. Especially when they may not have a lot of experience or background. I am a member of other such discussion boards such as: Budoseek and E-budo.

I will try to answer all of the questions that came up with regards to both our club and our system.

First off...we are certainly not a Mc Dojo LOL. We don't charge enough for training nor do we charge more than what it costs to purchase your belt for gradings. Belts are awarded based on technical achievement earned at the students own pace and eliibility to grade for a belt is at the Sensei's discretion. The students are put up to grade when the Sensei feels they are ready and able to pass cleanly and confidently. I am not in this for the money nor to open franchises of our club in every city in the country or province.

As far as our roots go..we are a Gendai-modern eclectic system. The systems root arts are the ones that the previous head of the system said were where we came from. I myself have always been suspicious of this as well ..but concerned myself less with the marketing and more with what was being taught and practiced.
On top of being ranked within our own system we are also all ranked with the Canadian Jujutsu Council which holds gradings to ensure members are of proper skill for there rank. This Council has been in existence since the 60's. CJC is similar to Judo Ontario etc., as governing body for Jujutsu in Canada.

I work in law-enforcement and have for many years both as a Correctional Officer and now in the Nuclear Security Industry. I work/have worked as a Defensive Tactics Instructor in both industries and thus my attention in training has always been with teaching self protection and not sport.

We use a week to week focus to ensure that students spend an equal amount of time on each skill set that is present in their belt level in the curriculum. Many places say that they have well rounded training and teach a full spectrum of fighting skills. However a great majority pay only lip service to certain parts of their training and concentrate a great deal more on other areas ie: say they teach striking but only give it nominal attention and spend the rest of their time on ground fighting.

With regard to whether or not we are more Aikido or more Jujutsu..I would say we lean far more towards Jujutsu. The curriculum you linked to is the one used at my instructor's club and does not reflect the Densho (curriculum ) used at Musubi Dojo. My instructor focuses much more on spiritual self development and growth than self-defence. After ten years of training together he and I have come to an agreement that what we practice has evolved into different goals and we are in midst of an amicable split. That said we are on excellent terms and still intend to hold training get-togethers on a regular basis.

If any of you have any further questions about Musubi Dojo or the type of Jujutsu we teach...I would be happy to answer them openly and honestly.

Thanks for taking time to read this very long post and thank you for allowing me to become part of this discussion board

Respectfully

Sensei Glen Pitcher
Mokuroku, 5th Dan
Chokushin Aiki-Jujutsu
Musubi Dojo

Hi Glen and welcome to the forums.

Thanks for taking the time to post about who you are and what you are about.

In regards to the background of the system (Kito Ryu, Daito Ryu et al) I appreciate your honesty.

As I didn't know anything about the class beyond the website info, my position was one of suspicion. I guess that goes to show that marketing can sometimes have the reverse effect!

You are pefectly right though, what is being taught is more important than marketing or hype.

Wonder what the OP'er decided in the end?

Hi Prizewriter

My pleasure to post and thank you for your reply. As for the original poster..I have no idea. He has not shown up at the dojo nor have I received any further phone calls or correspondence from him.

Perhaps he found a suitable club or maybe he went to the more expensive competition school. I mean the chance to train with a member of the World Sokeship Council and a World Martial Arts Hall of Famer would be tempting for most LOL.

Whatever he decided, or did not decide, he and anyone else are always welcome to drop by and see what we do. If they like what they see they are welcome to try a couple of classes before making any commitments.

Thanks again for both your interest and your reply.

Cheers


Glen

The most valuable tool that you can have in martial arts is an excellent training partner. You need to feel a cooperative vibe wherever you go. It's always god to see that other people enjoy helping you to improve if you happen to be doing something wrong.

I agree that contracts and belt guarantees are not a good thing, but, $800.00 for 10 months, thats $80.00 a month or $20.00 a week. That seems fair.

Well said Sir! I own a school myself and have been on Bullshido fighting just such things. Too many people speculate about anothers style or school without any prior knowledge other than what they glean off of a website. Try a few classes, if you like it stick with it. Not every teacher goes in for competitions or ring bouts.Many of the techniques we teach are not for sport, but self defense, sports have rules for a reason, Safety. Good Luck with your school.

Thank you Mukashimantis best of luck to you and your dojo as well!