Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions?

Posted by: slix

Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 02/19/08 02:39 PM

Browsed a Blackbelt Mag in Borders over the holiday weekend and did a little reading about this newer, apparently easier to learn form created by Ernie Cates. Right now I don't have any real ground work and I was curious if anyone had heard anything about this or had any opinions on it?

Tried to do some more internet research on it and either didn't know how to look or just wasn't much out there(I'm assuming the latter to preserve my precious ego )

But seriously... based on the movements of a cat and very easy to learn and apply? I have some doubts, any type of groundwork seems to me like it would take a very long time to do correctly no?
Posted by: JAMJTX

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 02/19/08 03:11 PM

For most people on the board, this will "say it all"
World Head of Family Sokeship Council : web page

It's really hard to take anyone here serious.

It may be effective self defense. But in goolgling it, all I find connected to it are a bunch of "soke grandmaster", "10th Dans".

I have nothing against someone creating a new style. In fact, one of the styles that I teach (Koroho Goshin Jutsu) is new. But the Founder did not go to a web site and buy a "sokeship" to try and gain credability. He worked very hard for 10 years to build a school and do puiblic demonstrations and various competitions to allow the style to stand on it's own or fall. It stood on it's own and he is a very credible person.

If I ever decided to create my own style I would do the same thing.

To do something like go to any "sokeship council" and buy "recognition" from people that you don't know and will likely never meet, kind of indicates to me that the person already knows there is no real credibility, so it has to be manufactured.

Like I said, he may really be onto something good. But serious, credible peaple are going to steer clear of it.
Posted by: slix

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 02/19/08 04:09 PM

Aww I kinda had a feeling that might've been the case. Especially when I can't find anyone who even teaches it via online searching. I also train in a 'new' system done much the same way. The founder did exhibitions, and took students until the weight of the form spoke for itself. And I was all excited to learn feline jitsu XD
Posted by: OldJudoka

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/18/08 10:35 PM

Hi. A very late history lesson for you.

Neko-ryu goshin jitsu was developed by Professor of Judo (8th dan) Ernie Cates with Nakabiyashi Sensei (combative measures instructor at the Japanese Naval Academy) and Kotani Sensei (Kodokan 10th dan) with the original intent of being a short course that could give a businessman reasonable training in simple self-defense principles in a 4-hour course back in 1962. It was later taught as part of the hand-to-hand combat system to the Marine Corp when Sensei Cates was an combat instructor in the Corp at Parris Island. Since then, it has evolved into a complete system. It does have many principles based on the movements of a cat, and integrates judo and jujitsu in the art. Sensei Cates constantly added things from other styles over the years, and continues to do so.

Professor Cates didn't "buy" his sokeship as a previous poster inferred. Professor Cates was awarded the title of Professor from the U.S. Judo Association of which he currently holds an eighth degree black belt (Hachi Dan) in Kodokan Judo. He also holds a seventh degree black belt in Taiho JuJutsu (Police Tactics) and a seventh degree black belt in Goshin Jitsu (Self Defense Tactics). Professor Cates was recognized by the World Head of Family Sokeship Council as Soke (or founder and head of family) for the Neko-ryu system making the system a recognized and validated martial art.

Professor Cates has been inducted into the American-Okinawan Karate Association Hall of Fame; the International Association of Martial Arts Hall of Fame and the World Head of Family Sokeship Council International Hall of Fame.

Professor Cates is retired from the U.S. Marine Corps where he achieved the rank of Captain. During his career in the Marines, he was the 1956 Okinawa Judo Champion, the overall All Marine Corps Judo Champion from 1959 to 1963 and the All Marine Corps Judo Champion from 1959 to 1965 in his weight division. He was also twice the USMC Inter-service Grand Champion in Judo. Professor Cates is currently the only American ever to be awarded the Japanese Ambassador's Cup in Judo which he received in 1962. Professor Cates has taught over half a million U.S. Marines in hand-to-hand combat. Professor Cates has served as Captain of the Eastern United States USMC Team Championships and the Southern U.S. AAU. Professor Cates also trained Dan Severn for the Ultimate Fighting Championships.

During a military tour of Vietnam from 1965 to 1967, at the University of Hue he trained Ngo Dong in Judo, and helped Professor Dong add Judo techniques to the art of Cuong Nhu.

Professor Cates also served as a law enforcement officer and taught police recruits in tactical training at the Mid-Michigan Police Academy while serving as a deputy sheriff in Shiawasi County, Michigan. The mid-Michigan Police Academy is located in Lansing and serves as a training ground for all of Michigan's Law Enforcement drug task force entry teams. Professor Cates has trained Federal, State and local law enforcement officers throughout the United States, and has been chosen to instruct nuclear facility and private security personnel. Professor Cates has also served as the Michigan State University Judo Team Coach.

He's got his bona fides. And FTR - he's my jujitsu sensei and promoted me to nidan in Neko-ryu goshin jitsu last year. And I still have a butt-ton to learn from him and his son (Sensei "Moose" Cates, now soke of the style).

Peace out.

PS Somebody needs to work on their googling skilz.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/18/08 11:48 PM

Blah blah blah blah,

I'm the founder of Bulldog-Ryu Goshin Jutsu.

Developed via youtube and lots of wikipedia research.

I bought credentials over the net and then I just claim that I've taught both marines and law enforcement.

My son got his arse handled to him now so I avoid real confrontation and instead develop a cult-like following.

I am the first Vietnamese descendant to be awarded the "Bach Ho" or White Tiger rank in Vovinam and thus I integrated into my art just to screw with my student's minds and totally confuse them.

And yes, I'm a 60th Dan in Judo and I hate throwing, so I developed a striking style of judo based on kicks.

Now I have a school which used to be managed poorly, but now I scam people with fake dvd's and I give them 5 years contract they must sign on. Other than that, I enjoy humiliating them by wearing a pink gi, however, instead of pants they have to wear a kilt colored like the american flag just to show patriotism.

My son runs the dojo now as I'm in Prison for fraud.

~Soke Doke Donnie

P.S... For fack's sake, how many JJJ styles do you need before people realize there's only so many ways to bend a limb or throw a person?
Posted by: BrianS

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 02:34 AM

Quote:

For fack's sake, how many JJJ styles do you need before people realize there's only so many ways to bend a limb or throw a person?




15,843!!!
Posted by: OldJudoka

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 08:35 AM

Thought I'd provide a little information. Obviously a close-minded community.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 09:21 AM

It's not a closed-minded community.

It's just my own opinion.

Don't go over-generalizing a whole community.

Your teacher, Ernie Cates, seems to be likeable fellow, and it seems that his credentials are very good.

The only thing I don't understand is why most higher ranked JJJ practitioners always start their own style when you think about it; There's only so much to a style.

Put whatever theory and ideologies you want, you still end up the same, why go calling it a new style of JJJ?

That's what I meant with my P.S. How many styles do you need before everyone start to realize that jujutsu, especially japanese, will always remain the same no matter what style, and the only difference is the one brought upon by an individual. An ude-garami is an ude-garami in judo and japanese jujutsu, or Sambo, or BJJ, doubt it'll be any different in Neko-ryu.

Although I must say that Cates holds a bit too many BB to sound normal. I've got 2 and that I spent my whole lifetime to earn, how can these people earn 10-12 of them? Either they're extremely talented beyond mortals, or they're a fraud. I'm not accusing Cates of being a fraud, but I just find it weird he can hold so many belts.

But then again, I'm going in circles. Why shouldn't he have so many belts when most jujutsu styles are the same, just with different names. Just take a test for each one and voila! You're a GM with over 10 belts.

~Donnie
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 10:50 AM

A lot of these so called "Ju Jitsu" styles irk me.

They are created by people who have had little to no experience of authentic, traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu. They study some Judo, a bit of Karate, and hey presto, they make up a "Ju Jitsu" style.

This isn't a Japanese martial art, it is a pseudo-Japanese system called "Ju Jitsu" to market it to people who may be interested in Japanese martial arts/Samurai Fantasists

The Martial arts community is the only place that I know this happens.

If I played basketball for 10 years, then opened up a soccer school, despite never having played soccer, then proceeded to teach you basketball while telling you it was soccer, you wouldn't go within a mile of my soccer club, would you?

Yet within martial arts, due to ignorance of Eastern culture, people in Western Society go to these so called "New Jitsu" places thinking they are doing something they are not.

WJJF, Atemi Ju Jitsu, World Sokeship Council.... et al peddle the same kind of misinformation and deceipt. They aren't teaching traditional Japanese arts, yet they let people think they are. They should very clearly state, in public, (be it on a website, a poster, in adverts in magazines etc...) WHAT EXACTLY IT IS THEY TEACH! If they want to mish mash Judo, Karate, Wrestling, Combatives, Kickboxing, etc... that is fine. But they should tell people what it is they are studying.

I walked passed a WJJF poster the other day that advertized itself as "traditional Japanese Martial Art". Rob Clarke, founder of WJJF, didn't learn an awful lot (if any) traditional Japanese martial arts, yet his orginization allows this kind of public misinformation to continue.

Sorry for the rant



BTW, Neko-Ryu Goshin Jutsu may be a very enjoyable and "effective" art, and to be fair to Mr Cates, he at least is fairly open about what it is he is teaching: "Neko-Ryu is based primarily on Goshin Jitsu and Kodokan Judo."

So he is teaching Judo, in other words...

Quote was from this article: http://www.dallaskenpo.com/seminars/professor_ernie_cates_seminar.html (Response to Question 4)
Posted by: JAMJTX

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 11:44 AM

ditto!
Posted by: Taison

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 12:04 PM

Prize,

I agree with what you've said;

IMO, all mr Cates is teaching is a form of Goshin Jutsu, which in itself is just a branch of Judo for self-defense, not a style in itself. It's like saying 'I'm teaching Shuk-a-Do which is basically Goju-ryu Bunkai'.

I'm sick of all these 'New Jitsu'. They don't teach anything new, just sloppy mish mash of who knows what.

~Donnie
Posted by: Zach_Zinn

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 06:05 PM

Quote:

Other than that, I enjoy humiliating them by wearing a pink gi, however, instead of pants they have to wear a kilt colored like the american flag just to show patriotism.




LMAO You made me shoot coffee out my nose dude!

Anyway, I know nothing about the style, but I don't get reinventing the wheel like that.

Why not just do Judo and integrate whatever else you like?
Posted by: Taison

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 10:22 PM

Exactly,

What's the purpose besides monetary benefits for founding your own system?

~Donnie
Posted by: OldJudoka

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/19/08 11:08 PM

Shouldn't have taken offense, sorry.

Professor is now 75 and not very internet-savvy. I tend to be a bit protective of him on-line.

Apologies to all.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/20/08 03:20 AM

Lol, feel free to hate me

I'm not accusing Mr Cates of being a fraud or anything. Just think it's weird he founded his own system when he's just teaching Judo with some mix of this and that.

~Donnie
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 09/21/08 06:58 AM

Well no need for apologies. Sometimes these threads can seem personal, but I can assure you this is not the case!

Again, Mr Cates may well be a very good teacher. Certainly I would like to still be active in Martial arts aged 75!!! And from the link I posted earlier, I like the sound of "Successful principles and techniques for longevity in the martial arts"

Sometimes the names of these "New Jitsu" styles ( I am copyrighting that term BTW!!) can actually do more harm than good. If I looked at the name "Neko-Ryu Goshin Jitsu" I would initially have a negative reaction. If I seen the "World Sokeship Council..." thing, I wouldn't even pay Neko Ryu Goshin Jitsu a second thought...

If I read what Mr Cates was actually teaching though (Judo, Judo from a SD perspective and Longevity in Martial Arts) then I would be quite interested in having a look!

The problem is when people muddy the pool of what it is they are teaching by adding all these whistles and bells, it can be easy to dismiss them, despite that fact that when it comes to the actual martial arts side of it, they actually have sound knowledge and would be a good source of training.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 10/29/08 12:47 PM

Quote:

They are created by people who have had little to no experience of authentic, traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu. They study some Judo, a bit of Karate, and hey presto, they make up a "Ju Jitsu" style




Just to play devil's advocate here, but couldn't one say this about 'Gracie Jujitsu'. I mean, no, there isn't any Karate,but its basically just Judo techniques used with an altered strategy. To my knowledge, the Gracie's had absolutely no training or knowledge of 'authentic' Japanese Jujutsu.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 10/29/08 01:44 PM

Possibly, but the thing with Gracie Jiu Jitsu is that they tell people it is what it is i.e. their Jiu Jitsu, their method of Jiu Jitsu. They don't pretend that it is some antiquated art form from medieval Japan. They are clear and direct about what they were taught, and how they adapted it, and how it came to be. They also named it to show it's unique identity, in comparison to traditional JJ.

I have read that at the time of Count Mitsuyo Maeda arriving in Brazil the term "Judo" wasn't widely in use. Some folks referred to what we considered as Judo as "Kano's Ju Jutsu" or "Kodokan Ju Jutsu". The Gracies may have been following that trend.

My initial objection was people using a full title made up of Japanese (e.g. "Atemi Aiki-Jutsu") for JJ to make is seem like a traditional Japanese Art, in order to get Samauri Fantasists in through the door. It's an abuse of a culture and language to turn a quick buck in many cases.

People would be better following the Gracies example and calling any new interrpretation of JJ after themselves or the place it originated from e.g. Robert Clarke could call his style "British Ju Jitsu" or "Clarkes Ju Jitsu" to show that it is something he created out of his own experience, rather than having people in the WJJF tell everyone they are learning a "traditional Japanese art".
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 10/29/08 04:28 PM



nuff said.. new thread.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 11/02/08 01:43 PM

Don't you love it when people declare a thread as being "done"? It's a great way to kill what could be an interesting conversation. These are discussion boards after all. If you don't feel like the reading the thread, then don't. But to declare it "done" is very rude, no matter how many greaemlins you throw out there.

Prizewriter:

I agree with you that someone should be upfront about where their style of jujitsu came from. I often read sites where the jujitsu is obviously modern, yet it gives it's history as coming from 'ancient Samurai techniques etc."

My point was more that there are indeed new takes on jujutsu that appear from time to time that have merit. However, the style should make clear where its origins come from, this I agree with.

--Chris
Posted by: hedkikr

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 01/02/09 02:08 PM

I don't know if I know any one on the World Soke-ship...(Blah-blah). 1st of all, it's an utterly long & STUPID name. What I can say w/ confidence is that it's way easier to get into that group than be recognized by REAL international MA legends (not the Chuck Norris/Jackie Chan variety).

Being a student isn't good enough for some.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 01/02/09 03:34 PM

Sorry Ames,

Didn't mean to snuff out conversation. I just saw that as a great place to end that discussion. I was my opinion that he had summed up what was being discussed in a nice neat package that wouldn't require further comment. If your opinion differs from mine... feel free to continue. Wasn't trying to step on toes; just my way of complimenting/agreeing with Prize's post.

No worries. Apologies if I touched a pet peeve of yours or broke forum etiquette.

ps - all the gremlins were there as an attempt to show that I was being very over the top silly with that post. No need to take it to heart. Sorry, sarcasm and the like don't work too well in written form.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 01/05/09 06:01 PM

JM--no problems. I think that was a crabby day for me, lol.

In terms of further thoughts on the issue, I mostly agree with Prizewriter on this one. The only think I would say is that I don't think there is anything wrong with someone giving their art a Japanese name, provided that they are honest that they have made the art up themselves. Especially if someone's training mostly comes from JMA, I think that in some cases it might make sense: you are honoring and paying homage to the country whose martial arts have provided the basis for your new art.

--Chris
Posted by: CFTIan

Re: Neko-ryu Goshin Jitsu: Thoughts/Opinions? - 01/14/09 03:20 PM

Just to point out, a comment made early said the Sokeship Council doesn't clearly describe what they teach, the council doesn't teach at all.

They are a Council made from various founders and heads of family from traditional arts they decide if a "new" style is unique enough to be its own full system.

As for not knowing anyone "legit" or noteworthy on the council, I would assume anyone interested in this type or art would know the Gracies, they are members.

There are also the people who brought the arts from japan and the east to the west and united states listed as members. One would think the most influential ones would be considered legit.

If people would actually go and look up information before making uninformed assumptions about buying titles, and assuming an art teaches X because it has a name similar to Y instead of just reading a description about the style from the instructor folks might be a little less put off if it isn't what they expected.

As far as multiple black belts goes, its not that hard if you study multiple arts at the same time. I'm in the process of working on three different black belts. If you reread the part Master Cates has black belts in three styles(other then his 4th which he founded) that you could say are very similar: Judo, police tactics, and a self defense style. They probably used very similar technique and could be learned at the same time. Also note he has been doing this for a very long time.

Sorry if I'm being a little defensive, I study Neko-Ryu Goshin Jistu (yes i agree the name is a lil wonky)as instructed by 6th dan Chris Spruielle.