Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu

Posted by: Prizewriter

Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu - 01/25/08 03:27 PM

Quite a few years back, as is my way, I went to a Ju Jitsu class. It was a World Ju Jitsu Federation class. I thought it would be good for my Aikido, and would be interesting to learn! I went on to the WJJF website, bought one of their books and read about the martial art of the Samurai… or so I thought.

Things started going wrong from the first class. The instructor asked me for money straight away (never a good sign). It was expensive too.

A while into class, I notice advanced students doing some weapons forms. Some were using Sais. Now I always thought that Sais were weapons used in the Ryukyuan prefecture. They were not the weapon of choice for Samurai. Something did seem right about the whole set up.

I went home, done a bit more study into the WJJF and its founder Robert Clarke, and went to a few more classes. Turns out I wasn’t studying what I thought I was. It wasn’t Ju Jutsu; it was a modern self defence class labelling itself as JJ for marketing purposes.

Now I could go on about the dubious nature of orgs like the WJJF, but there would be no point. Plenty of people go to these classes and get great benefit from it and enjoy it. Power to them.

The reason for the above tale is to use it as a context for the question of this thread:

How rare is Traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu in the Western world?

I ran a poll on here a while back to see how many people had trained in traditional JJ. Not many had. So it got me wondering: How rare is it to find trad. JJ outside of Japan?

Now I am aware that modern Budo arts such as Judo, Aikido, BJJ, and “modern” JJ styles are popular in today’s world. But I want to talk about traditional Japanese Ju Jutsu here.

For the sake of this post, the criteria for traditional Ju Jutsu will be systems considered as part of the Koryu (e.g. Kito Ryu, Yoshin Ryu, Daito Ryu etc….).

Any posts welcome.

P.S. I love Judo. I love Aikido. I think BJJ is great. But there are any number of threads (heck, even dedicated forums!) about those topics. I would appreciate if this thread could be about Traditional Ju Jutsu, as defined above.

Many thanks and any (legit) comments appreciated.
Posted by: JAMJTX

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu - 01/25/08 03:57 PM

It's quite rare.
The vast majority oif what people here call Jujutsu is Judo mixed with Aikido, Karate or something else. Now there is Brazilian Jujutsu - still coming from Judo not Jujutsu.
It seems anything that uses joint locks, throws or grappling of any kind is called Jujutsu.
Posted by: JMWcorwin

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu - 01/25/08 07:04 PM

There's supposedly a guy in LA that teaches traditional daito ryu aikijujitsu, but you can't jus take classes. It's kinda like you have to know someone who will introduce you, then you have to write an essay on why you want to train with him and if selected take an old school kinda oath of loyalty.

He teaches with no belt levels, just the training. But, as I said, it's really hard to even find the guy let alone get training. The guy's name is Don Angier. Here's a link to the article.
Posted by: howard

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/25/08 08:54 PM

Quote:

There's supposedly a guy in LA that teaches traditional daito ryu aikijujitsu, but you can't jus take classes...
training... The guy's name is Don Angier...



Hi,

He doesn't teach Daito-ryu. He teaches Yanagi-ryu.

His teacher's father, Kotaro Yoshida, taught Daito-ryu in Japan, but he also transmitted a family art to his son.

Mr. Angier is wholly legitimate. Yanagi-ryu is a form of Aikijujutsu. That's obvious from seeing the techniques. If you do a search for it on youtube, you should find a really nice clip from what appears to be the 70s. It's excellent stuff.

With respect to your original question, I believe that authentic Japanese Jujutsu is pretty rare in the States. There seems to be a lot of stuff calling itself Daito-ryu that isn't. There are only a handful of legitimate Daito-ryu dojos in this country, regardless of which line you're talking about.

One final thought for now... you can find some lively and very well-informed discussions on the internet about whether Daito-ryu should be properly considered a koryu.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/26/08 11:15 AM

I think it is the same for most places in the world outside of Japan. There are no Koryu schools in Ireland I believe, and only 3 that I know of in the UK.

It’s a similar story in the rest of Europe.

Re Daito Ryu being considered Koryu, I have read some of those discussions myself. I am not in a position to say whether it is or not, but thought to include it here for the sake of the thread.

Just to further the thread on a little... Anyone have and idea why it is so hard to find trad. JJ outside of Japan? Is it that, in light of Modern Budo, these arts are deemed antiquated and outdated? Or is it that there is a reluctance to teach these arts outside of Japan? Or is it a problem of ignorance amongst the general public as to traditional Japanese JJ is/is not?

Thanks for all the posts so far.
Posted by: howard

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/26/08 12:20 PM

Quote:

Re Daito Ryu being considered Koryu, I have read some of those discussions myself. I am not in a position to say whether it is or not, but thought to include it here for the sake of the thread.



Hi,

As I understand it, the basic question is whether Tokimune Takeda's accounts of the transmission of Daito-ryu down generations of Takedas since something like 1150 is historically accurate, or myth. Tokimune told Stanley Pranin that he read this account in some secret scrolls that are only made available to Shinto priests. Since there were priests in the Takeda clan, he was allowed access to the scrolls.

Pranin relates Tokimune's account in his book about Daito-ryu masters, but seems to me to be careful to limit himself to that. In other words, I cannot find where he (Pranin) offers his own opinion about the accuracy of Tokimune's account.

In the past couple of years, a handful of Koryu researchers have suggested that Daito-ryu as a unified art never existed until Sokaku Takeda came along. If this turns out to be true, then, of course, Daito-ryu cannot be considered Koryu.

Quote:

Just to further the thread on a little... Anyone have and idea why it is so hard to find trad. JJ outside of Japan? Is it that, in light of Modern Budo, these arts are deemed antiquated and outdated? Or is it that there is a reluctance to teach these arts outside of Japan? Or is it a problem of ignorance amongst the general public as to traditional Japanese JJ is/is not?



Now those are good questions.

I don't know... It's surprising to me that more native Japanese Jujutsuka have not immigrated to the States and Europe and established schools. Look at the Koreans, by comparison... there are dozens of Korean natives in the States running TKD and Hapkido schools.

I don't think there's a lack of interest (at least not in the States). A lot of people seem to be interested in Daito-ryu and seem to find it exotic. I also wonder about whether people consider Jujtutsu archaic and not applicable to modern times. Maybe many do, but if one learns the principles of Jujutsu, those can certainly be applied to modern self-defense. (IMO, of course. )

One thing I think may be at work is that traditional Japanese Jujutsu of any variety requires a lot of dedication. The techniques in the arts that involve an aiki component are full of subtleties, and take a long time to learn (at least for most of us). Another thing I think is at work is that it is plain old uncomfortable to train in traditional Jujutsu and its derivative arts, like old-school Hapkido as Choi Yong Sul taught. Very few people seem willing to stick with it over the years.

btw, I think this is an excellent topic for discussion... thanks for bringing it up.
Posted by: JAMJTX

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/26/08 01:42 PM

Quote:

Just to further the thread on a little... Anyone have and idea why it is so hard to find trad. JJ outside of Japan? Is it that, in light of Modern Budo, these arts are deemed antiquated and outdated? Or is it that there is a reluctance to teach these arts outside of Japan? Or is it a problem of ignorance amongst the general public as to traditional Japanese JJ is/is not?





As Japan first began to emerge from thier isolation and moved towards westernization, there was also a move to "civilize" and martial arts had fallen out of favor. By the time Jigaro Kano, the Judo founder, began his Jujutsu training, Jujutsu was nearly extinct. He had a very difficult time findng a teacher and had even been advised to forget about Jujutsu. So this is in 1870's Japan that Jujutsu was nearly gone. There were only a few schools, except of course for what was being done in the military and police depts.

By 1882 Judo was established. As it grew, so did interest in the history and thus the parent art. Later, as Judo changed interest in the older, traditional "self defense" arts grew even more. But there weren't many schools. So people started mixing Judo with Aikido, Karate and just about anything else and calling it "jujutsu".

It did not take long for gendai "hybrid" jujutsu schools to outnumber the koryu schools.

Take the near total extinction of the koryu schools by the 1870's and add to that the closed nature of the schools (not teaching gaijin) and the fact that so few of the practitioners left the country, you can see why there is very little of it outside of Japan.

As far as Daito Ryu being a true koryu, I am on the side of saying YES, but I understand why some say NO.

In actuality, Takeda Sokaku was the Founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Some references call him the "restorer" of the art. Either way you look it, he organized it and named it. He likely even studied other arts, some say he studied Asayama Ichiden Ryu and used that as a foundation.

But, he did carry on an ancient lineage.
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/27/08 05:17 AM

Great stuff Jim! This seems to be a reoccuring theme with many traditional martial arts.

Ashe posted a trailer for a documentary called "Fighting arts of Borneo" due out this year in the Chinese/ Kung Fu forum. The documentary is about Chinese martial artists who fear that some Chinese systems of fighting will be lost within 2 generations.


I was on a Silat website, were the Guru said that teachers in Indonesia were more receptive to people outside the country now learing Silat, as many of the youth in Indonesia aren't interested in it. They have MTV and Diet Coke instead, like most people in the world nowadays.

Suppose it is sign of the times. I think as long as there are people willing to learn (which there are) then these martial arts will never truly die.
Posted by: howard

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/27/08 10:43 AM

Quote:

In actuality, Takeda Sokaku was the Founder of Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu. Some references call him the "restorer" of the art. Either way you look it, he organized it and named it. He likely even studied other arts, some say he studied Asayama Ichiden Ryu and used that as a foundation.

But, he did carry on an ancient lineage.



Hi Jim,

Sokaku definitely studied other arts, in particular Ono ha Itto ryu (sword). His outstanding sword skills are documented.

As for the formal organization of the techniques into a syllabus, that is typically attributed to his son, Tokimune. Tokimune named the techniques and organized the Hiden Mokuroku that is the basis of Daito-ryu instruction.
Posted by: JAMJTX

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/27/08 11:05 AM

Howard, thanks for the correction re: Tokimune Takeda and the mokuroko. I am aware of that and should have made mention of it. But is not also correct that that Sokaku put together some sort of syllabus that did not previous exist? I know he taught in more of a seminar format and did not have a dojo. But he still seemed to have had some sort of organization.

With regards to Borneo arts, the same thing happened with Filipino Escrima. It was pretty much saved here in the U.S. by Angel Cabales and a handful of others.
Posted by: Ames

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu - 01/28/08 12:04 AM

I think there are a few reason why Koryu Jujutsu styles aren't popular in the west:

1. Koryu styles are very much linked to tradional Japanese culture, for that reason some consider it very hard/impossible to authentically teach Koryu outside of Japan.

2. Some Koryu have very large leraning curves. Daito Ryu is one of these. The practioner has to unlearn old movement and work from the bottom up. For this reason, Koryu takes time and extreme dedication to learn.

3. It's hard to find enough interested people in one area. Generally they are spread out. Like it or not most people like the quick and easy route and Koryu just don't make room for these kind of people. For this reason, it's hard to keep all but the most dedicated students coming. This of course wouldn't matter of course if there wasnt the problem of funding the study (i.e. costs for space, equipment etc.).

4. (this is the one that might get me in trouble, but oh well.) Many Koryu exist locked in particular moment in history. This is a blessing and a curse. Although the techniques theoritically remain unaltered from thier battlefield/duelling/violent past, they also don't change with the times. So although you could conceivably use the techniques against a modern attack, it takes a lot longer to get to this stage than it does in many other, more modern arts.

--Chris
Posted by: NewJitsu

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju Jutsu - 01/28/08 08:22 AM

Quote:


3. It's hard to find enough interested people in one area. Generally they are spread out. Like it or not most people like the quick and easy route and Koryu just don't make room for these kind of people.




I have trained in aiki jutsu for a number of years and your no.3 point is something that I definitely agree with. Traditional JJJ just isn's sexy or easy! I am purely speaking from my own experience but the Sports Centre where I train is full of kickboxing classes, 30th Dan karate people, BJJ... all seemingly much more 'glamorous' than JJJ. Plus we find it hard retaining students because they come expecting UFC yet expect it not to hurt!

I tried WJJF a couple of times and, with all respect to them, they have absolutely no resistance training whatsoever. I know Health & Safety is very important but literally you are not allowed to throw someone in case you hurt them; you sort of lift them up and place them down gently on the mat.... Waste of time if you want to get conditioned or actually have some semblance of reality.

Each to his own at the end of the day; I love my aiki jutsu because I'm interested in ancient Japanese history, the body mechanics and kuzushi of the fighting techniques that apply just as much now as hundreds of years ago... plus I never intend to step into an octagon or get a new belt every two months. I think we just have to accept that many places are reverting to the good ol' tried and tested 'Western' techniques of boxing and wrestling - great for SD and MMA, not so good for the Eastern fans.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 01/28/08 08:42 AM

Quote by JAMJTX -

Quote:

As Japan first began to emerge from thier isolation and moved towards westernization, there was also a move to "civilize" and martial arts had fallen out of favor. By the time Jigaro Kano, the Judo founder, began his Jujutsu training, Jujutsu was nearly extinct. He had a very difficult time findng a teacher and had even been advised to forget about Jujutsu. So this is in 1870's Japan that Jujutsu was nearly gone. There were only a few schools, except of course for what was being done in the military and police depts.




Fascinating, Jim. I was not aware of that.
Posted by: jude33

Re: Into the West: The search for Traditional Ju J - 03/08/08 03:14 PM

Quote:



As Japan first began to emerge from thier isolation and moved towards westernization, there was also a move to "civilize" and martial arts had fallen out of favor. By the time Jigaro Kano, the Judo founder, began his Jujutsu training, Jujutsu was nearly extinct. He had a very difficult time findng a teacher and had even been advised to forget about Jujutsu. So this is in 1870's Japan that Jujutsu was nearly gone. There were only a few schools, except of course for what was being done in the military and police depts.







I suppose written history is always being debated.
I think that for some reason, be it political or what ever, Kano didint seek out people such as Mataemon Tanabe. There also seems to be quite a few healthy Japanese Jujitsu Lineage's still around at that time. Which would seem to have been kept going to the present day.

Jude