Posted by: deathrune
size disadvantage? - 06/21/06 12:32 PM
i'm about 6'1 250, between 25-28% bodyfat, and I'm wanting to learn Ju Jitsu. Would my size be a hindrance or an advantage?
size disadvantage?
Posted by: MattJ
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/21/06 12:34 PM
No.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/21/06 12:40 PM
Neither unless you are so big that you cannot perform techniques on your partners or you are so big that they cannot peform them on you, which is unlikely.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/21/06 07:07 PM
Different techniques have different movements that are done better by people of all different types. You will find some techniques that are hard for you, some that you will excel at... what you want to do is practice to ones that are difficult, and schmooze the ones that come easy.
Size is a definite advantage in groundwork, along with strength, so you can find a niche somewhere in jujutsu that you'll be comfortable with. If you learn good "kuzushi" skills, it won't matter what size you are, you'll have control of everybody's balance...
Size is a definite advantage in groundwork, along with strength, so you can find a niche somewhere in jujutsu that you'll be comfortable with. If you learn good "kuzushi" skills, it won't matter what size you are, you'll have control of everybody's balance...
Posted by: schanne
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/22/06 02:40 PM
You big guys always gas me out when I'm mounted, your wieght just pushes all the air out of my chest. 
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/23/06 12:05 AM
Schanne, we had a judo clinic about two years ago, and one of the black belts that showed up must have weighed 350 pounds. When we took turns doing the techniques, he sat on my chest and I swear my ribs were hitting my backbone. My lungs are due to re-aerate sometime next week, so I know where you're coming from...
Dead weight beats skill every time...
Dead weight beats skill every time...
Posted by: Mr_Heretik
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/23/06 12:19 AM
Thats great.. I'm about to sign up for some judo class and I weigh 111 lbs.
This is going to be fun...
This is going to be fun...
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 06/23/06 12:31 AM
Put some rocks in your pockets, and stay in your own weight class That guy at the seminar rolled over me like an asphalt street roller... 
Seriously, their weight is only an advantage in ground work, so don't start off discouraged... smile and jump in...
That guy at the seminar rolled over me like an asphalt street roller... Seriously, their weight is only an advantage in ground work, so don't start off discouraged... smile and jump in...
Posted by: Legend of the Hungry Wolf
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/05/06 01:16 PM
ya the only disadvantage u will have is ur size will make it difficult for smaller people to really push you hard. once you find someone to negate ur size and strength, you'll start to really learn something.
yes u will have a huge advantage on the ground, but not so much on ur feet.
cause ur tall, when doing shoulder throws u will have trouble cause u gotta get really low.
yes u will have a huge advantage on the ground, but not so much on ur feet.
cause ur tall, when doing shoulder throws u will have trouble cause u gotta get really low.
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/07/06 01:35 AM
Small people have an advantage over you in many areas of throwing. Pretty simple reasoning, your center of gravity is higher and you're easier to throw as a result.
Also you will find in jujutsu (Japanese) your arm and leg movements may be larger than a shorter person's because of the length of your limbs. This can make you slower but not by much.
Remember these disadvantages are usually offset by other advantages such as increased reach, etc..
Also you will find in jujutsu (Japanese) your arm and leg movements may be larger than a shorter person's because of the length of your limbs. This can make you slower but not by much.
Remember these disadvantages are usually offset by other advantages such as increased reach, etc..
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: size disadvantage! - 07/08/06 03:46 AM
Quote:
Small people have an advantage over you in many areas of throwing. ..
This is a misconception based on the assumption that the larger man is less skilled/experienced in throwing than the smaller man.
Posted by: Glockmeister
Re: size disadvantage! - 07/13/06 02:17 PM
Quote:Quote:
Small people have an advantage over you in many areas of throwing. ..
This is a misconception based on the assumption that the larger man is less skilled/experienced in throwing than the smaller man.
I don't think that is always the case. I don't assume a taller man has less skill than I do, but I have found it is easier for me to throw a taller man than the other way around. One of my trainign partners was much taller than me and it was harder for him to perform some throws such as shoulder throw on me than it was for me to perform them on him, simply because his center of gravity is higher and it makes it somewhat easier for me to throw him.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: size disadvantage! - 07/13/06 02:43 PM
Quote:Quote:Quote:
Small people have an advantage over you in many areas of throwing. ..
This is a misconception based on the assumption that the larger man is less skilled/experienced in throwing than the smaller man.
I don't think that is always the case. I don't assume a taller man has less skill than I do, but I have found it is easier for me to throw a taller man than the other way around. One of my trainign partners was much taller than me and it was harder for him to perform some throws such as shoulder throw on me than it was for me to perform them on him.
That's because you are better at throwing than he is, not because of his height. Count yourself lucky. Tall guys who are good at throws can put you in the cheap seats.
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/15/06 03:57 PM
Your size will almost certainly be an advantage, especially in a grappling art. All other things being equal, larger, stronger people have an advantage over smaller, weaker people. You can't change the laws of physics.
That said, I have found size can be a disadvantage is some more acrobatic arts. TKD, for example, features a lot of high, spinning kicks. Often, smaller, quicker TKD practioners can use their speed advantage against larger opponenets.
That said, I have found size can be a disadvantage is some more acrobatic arts. TKD, for example, features a lot of high, spinning kicks. Often, smaller, quicker TKD practioners can use their speed advantage against larger opponenets.
Posted by: Derik
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/15/06 11:22 PM
Quote:
Your size will almost certainly be an advantage, especially in a grappling art. All other things being equal, larger, stronger people have an advantage over smaller, weaker people. You can't change the laws of physics.
That said, I have found size can be a disadvantage is some more acrobatic arts. TKD, for example, features a lot of high, spinning kicks. Often, smaller, quicker TKD practioners can use their speed advantage against larger opponenets.
me personally im about 6'1-6'2 and i hover between 140-145 and in tkd my height is a huge advantage because its harder to kick me in the head and I have really long legs
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 05:49 AM
Don't try to compare tkd with judo or jujutsu, it's two compeltely different things. In TKD extra height means extra reach, which is a good thing. But in judo extra reach has relatively limited utility.
I'm not sure how extra height could be considered quite such an advantage in judo, besides the physical domination and reach aspects of it.
From a technical point of view being tall puts you at a distinct disadvantage for most judo throws. It's not even worth arguing about, it's simple physics and body mechanics. Someone shorter has a lower center of gravity, and they are also likely to be able to throw someone with a higher center of gravity with greater ease.
If you are tall you will have to work through your training to find ways to offset these disadvantages. Believe me, you will notice the disadvantages, and you will also find workarounds for most of them, especially vs small people.
And height also does have its advantages, especially in long range techniques and also simply dominating or intimidating a shorter opponent.
It doesn't make for earth shattering differences, but the differences are there and you'll have to cope. If you do any jujutsu for example, you'll notice various arm locks probably just won't work exactly the way you've been shown if your instructor is shorter or has shorter arms. I recall one very tall student trying to do arm locks on me and it just wasn't working at all despite being 'technically' the correct movement. He had to change the way he moved his arm to get the technique to work.
Good luck in your training.
I'm not sure how extra height could be considered quite such an advantage in judo, besides the physical domination and reach aspects of it.
From a technical point of view being tall puts you at a distinct disadvantage for most judo throws. It's not even worth arguing about, it's simple physics and body mechanics. Someone shorter has a lower center of gravity, and they are also likely to be able to throw someone with a higher center of gravity with greater ease.
If you are tall you will have to work through your training to find ways to offset these disadvantages. Believe me, you will notice the disadvantages, and you will also find workarounds for most of them, especially vs small people.
And height also does have its advantages, especially in long range techniques and also simply dominating or intimidating a shorter opponent.
It doesn't make for earth shattering differences, but the differences are there and you'll have to cope. If you do any jujutsu for example, you'll notice various arm locks probably just won't work exactly the way you've been shown if your instructor is shorter or has shorter arms. I recall one very tall student trying to do arm locks on me and it just wasn't working at all despite being 'technically' the correct movement. He had to change the way he moved his arm to get the technique to work.
Good luck in your training.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 10:46 AM
More than anything else, size dictated the kind and type of techniques you use... your ability to drop your center of gravity for jujutsu skills also has a bearing.
Regardless of that, your level of understanding and type of training you do will have more to do with how effective your technique is than the size differences. The one exception in that is for ground work, where size and strength do make a difference, simply because of the effects of gravity. The ability to deal with the extra weight on you from grappling will also have an effect.
A large, heavy guy is like trying to roll over a horse on the mats, and it requires excellence in your groundwork techniques and the strength to execute them in practice... not that you can't do it, it's just a more difficult situation than a lighter opponent. That's when you need to stick close to your sensei and follow instructions carefully (which you should do anyway).
Martial arts are learned "through the body" and dealing with weight and strength is just a part of it. How well you do will determine how good your techniques are.
Regardless of that, your level of understanding and type of training you do will have more to do with how effective your technique is than the size differences. The one exception in that is for ground work, where size and strength do make a difference, simply because of the effects of gravity. The ability to deal with the extra weight on you from grappling will also have an effect.
A large, heavy guy is like trying to roll over a horse on the mats, and it requires excellence in your groundwork techniques and the strength to execute them in practice... not that you can't do it, it's just a more difficult situation than a lighter opponent. That's when you need to stick close to your sensei and follow instructions carefully (which you should do anyway).
Martial arts are learned "through the body" and dealing with weight and strength is just a part of it. How well you do will determine how good your techniques are.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 12:26 PM
Quote:
Someone shorter has a lower center of gravity, and they are also likely to be able to throw someone with a higher center of gravity with greater ease.
Only if they are more proficient with their throws than the taller man.
Posted by: MattJ
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 02:03 PM
Quote by wristtwister -
I'm afraid I will have to diasgree here. Size and strength are advantages equally in stand-up or on the ground. The "effect of gravity" can be largely cancelled through proper positioning.
I am not seeing a big difference between dealing with a big guy either way. You must have superior technique if you are smaller.
Quote:
Regardless of that, your level of understanding and type of training you do will have more to do with how effective your technique is than the size differences. The one exception in that is for ground work, where size and strength do make a difference, simply because of the effects of gravity.
I'm afraid I will have to diasgree here. Size and strength are advantages equally in stand-up or on the ground. The "effect of gravity" can be largely cancelled through proper positioning.
I am not seeing a big difference between dealing with a big guy either way. You must have superior technique if you are smaller.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 02:24 PM
Matt,
take a 100# weight and pick it up when you're standing up, and then lie down and try to pick up that same 100#. It isn't a matter of training necessarily, but of physics. Your body isn't structured to do that from the ground, and you lose the mechanical advantages provided by your skeleton and muscle structure. That's why the techniques of groundwork are powerful, and why Prof. Kano added groundwork to his Kodokan Judo program... he found out where the "stand up" techniques lost their "edge" when taken to the ground.
Clearly it's easier to move weight from the standing position than to move that same weight from the ground because you lose the hips and legs (which are the largest muscles in the body) to help you do the job.
take a 100# weight and pick it up when you're standing up, and then lie down and try to pick up that same 100#. It isn't a matter of training necessarily, but of physics. Your body isn't structured to do that from the ground, and you lose the mechanical advantages provided by your skeleton and muscle structure. That's why the techniques of groundwork are powerful, and why Prof. Kano added groundwork to his Kodokan Judo program... he found out where the "stand up" techniques lost their "edge" when taken to the ground.
Clearly it's easier to move weight from the standing position than to move that same weight from the ground because you lose the hips and legs (which are the largest muscles in the body) to help you do the job.
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 05:17 PM
Quote:
Matt,
take a 100# weight and pick it up when you're standing up, and then lie down and try to pick up that same 100#. It isn't a matter of training necessarily, but of physics. Your body isn't structured to do that from the ground, and you lose the mechanical advantages provided by your skeleton and muscle structure. That's why the techniques of groundwork are powerful, and why Prof. Kano added groundwork to his Kodokan Judo program... he found out where the "stand up" techniques lost their "edge" when taken to the ground.
Clearly it's easier to move weight from the standing position than to move that same weight from the ground because you lose the hips and legs (which are the largest muscles in the body) to help you do the job.
Can you curl more weight than you can bench press? Can you lift more weight than you can roll? I don't think so. It seems you may just be more familiar with what can be done standing than on the ground. That's fine, but not a good basis for categorical conclusions...
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 05:19 PM
Quote:
Clearly it's easier to move weight from the standing position than to move that same weight from the ground because you lose the hips and legs (which are the largest muscles in the body) to help you do the job.
If you don't think you use your hips and legs in groundwork, you are really missing something.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 06:44 PM
Quote:
If you don't think you use your hips and legs in groundwork, you are really missing something.
I never said you didn't... I said you lose the assistance of your hips and legs in lifting when on the ground (unless you're bridging someone on top of you).
Posted by: kusojiji
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/16/06 09:25 PM
Actually, you said "move" not "lift"
Posted by: Neko456
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/17/06 02:03 PM
Parabox wrote - From a technical point of view being tall puts you at a distinct disadvantage for most judo throws. It's not even worth arguing about, it's simple physics and body mechanics. Someone shorter has a lower center of gravity, and they are also likely to be able to throw someone with a higher center of gravity with greater ease.
If you are tall you will have to work through your training to find ways to offset these disadvantages. Believe me, you will notice the disadvantages, and you will also find workarounds for most of them, especially vs small people
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can see if you talking training 1 throw say a hip throw, I've always had a problem throwing shorter heavier people using a hip throw. But in randori hand, leg throws, take downs and modification can be used if you are taller and bigger.
Also to counter close twisting throws all you need is to separate body contact either by dropping under his ankle or sinking tackle or reaping their legs.
I agree in practice sessions throwing someone shorter with the proper technique was more difficult, but throwing or grappling with a smaller person is not difficults if the skill level is anywhere close. Size and strength are added pluses over a equally skill smaller person.
Not that I've never tapped to a smaller eq skilled person but I was messing around, trying something new or experimenting. Usually 7 out 10 times I tap them out or throw them. Even if taken down I can easily counter more then he could if I've mounted him. Its just life. Size, strength/power, tencity and equal or superior skills means something.
Thats why theres weight classes. I'll admit to this just like in wrestling/boxing most of the superior technicains are middleweights and down. Not that the big guys aren't good they just depend on size and power too much on average.
If you are tall you will have to work through your training to find ways to offset these disadvantages. Believe me, you will notice the disadvantages, and you will also find workarounds for most of them, especially vs small people
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
I can see if you talking training 1 throw say a hip throw, I've always had a problem throwing shorter heavier people using a hip throw. But in randori hand, leg throws, take downs and modification can be used if you are taller and bigger.
Also to counter close twisting throws all you need is to separate body contact either by dropping under his ankle or sinking tackle or reaping their legs.
I agree in practice sessions throwing someone shorter with the proper technique was more difficult, but throwing or grappling with a smaller person is not difficults if the skill level is anywhere close. Size and strength are added pluses over a equally skill smaller person.
Not that I've never tapped to a smaller eq skilled person but I was messing around, trying something new or experimenting. Usually 7 out 10 times I tap them out or throw them. Even if taken down I can easily counter more then he could if I've mounted him. Its just life. Size, strength/power, tencity and equal or superior skills means something.
Thats why theres weight classes. I'll admit to this just like in wrestling/boxing most of the superior technicains are middleweights and down. Not that the big guys aren't good they just depend on size and power too much on average.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/17/06 06:43 PM
Quote:
Thats why theres weight classes. I'll admit to this just like in wrestling/boxing most of the superior technicains are middleweights and down. Not that the big guys aren't good they just depend on size and power too much on average.
Xactamundo Neko!
Mechanically, the lower center of gravity is more stable, and if it's combined with weight, it's even more stable... but that's not to say that you necessarily want to only train against short, fat people
Where a lot of these discussions get off track is in taking the generalizations of "all or nothing" technique definitions, when each technique is usually developed for a specific situation and may or may not work well with someone of "different" C/G or weight. Clearly a heavy person sitting on your chest is more trouble to move than a lighter one, and that too depends on how well trained they are. Some lighter guys can "make themselves heavy" with their technique, and be a handful to move.
In throws where the lower C/G isn't helpful, it's usually the kuzushi that you have control of that makes the difference, or the extension of the attacker off their base. Once on the ground, however, the weight of your opponent can be a definite problem, unless (of course) you just bench press him over your head and slip out from under
Look! Under the big guy... it's "muscleman"
Posted by: fileboy2002
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/18/06 12:34 PM
Derik,
At 6'2" and 145#, you have a very unusual body type--i.e. you are relatvielt tall but very light. Perhaps this makes TKD the right art for you. I am 6" and 205. While I am plenty powerful, I am slower than most of my smaller classmates. I could probably crush alot of them to death, but I would have a tough time getting ahold of some of them before getting my head kicked in.
At 6'2" and 145#, you have a very unusual body type--i.e. you are relatvielt tall but very light. Perhaps this makes TKD the right art for you. I am 6" and 205. While I am plenty powerful, I am slower than most of my smaller classmates. I could probably crush alot of them to death, but I would have a tough time getting ahold of some of them before getting my head kicked in.
Posted by: llurch
Re: size disadvantage? - 07/27/06 02:18 PM
I am 6-5 i weigh 290 and am a Nidan in ketsugo i dont think size would be an issue as long as you learn the basics well before you try to advance to fast