A taste of Jiu Jitsu*

Posted by: Ives

A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/13/06 08:19 AM

Since Febuary I signed in on a jiujitsu course at university. I just finished the last of the course. Here are my experiences.

Let me first say that I have a small karate and kobudo background.

The first thing I noticed were the mats in the dojo. We don't use them in our karate dojo so it was pretty strange. I suffered many blisters and sore toes because of them.

The first things we learned were falling, and escapes from grabs by means of arm-locks. That was pretty fun. I sometimes had slight advantaches.
The atemi-waza were sometime a bit funny. The principles explained by the sensei didn't conform with the ones I had. We usually had some exchanges of thought, which contributed to both our MA understanding.

For the short period of time, I can say I learned some nice things and I enjoyed it very much. Maybe next year I'll sign up again.

I think I have a better idea of jiujitsu then I had before.
I thought it was all grabbing, pulling, locking and choking. But it looks quiet a lot like the karate I train in, except for kata (I know there are some in jiujitsu but we didn't trained in it) and a different emphasis.

Here are the major pro and con.
Pro: training on a resisting opponent.
Con: small curriculum to train solitairy. (Like kata in karate.)

I know it looks like a compare. And I know I can't discuss the whole spectrum. But these are my experiences.
Feel free to comment, ask questions or share your experience.

Regards

*(official spelling in dutch, that's why I use this form, I'm used to it.)
Posted by: Prizewriter

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/13/06 12:47 PM

Nice to hear of your experience. Perhaps you should look out for Wado Ryu karate (if you have not tried this already). It is a style of karate that incorporates karate and tradtional ju jutsu.
Posted by: Ives

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/14/06 07:21 AM

Thanks, I heard of Wado Ryu. The karate I practice also incorporates similar techniques. Also we try to look past the horizon.
It doesn't end by just striking and kicking, it's a lot more.

I believe that all the old styles were complete curricula.
But somewhere people focused on different parts, there tokiu waza so to speak.
Posted by: DaDoN_1

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/14/06 12:20 PM

nice 2 see u enjoyed it man, i do jujitsu as well, i started just by chance. i decided 2 go to a camp once..some years ago and i was hooked..been training 4 years now
who knows..maybe u'll pick it up

but when u say that u find them a bit simliar...are u refering to the techniques u were taught?
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/15/06 09:26 AM

I'll try to be civil about this, but when it comes to studying a martial art, you're either "in or out"... no, "maybe so" (i.e. Mr. Miyagi in the "Karate Kid")

Over the years, I can't tell you how many people have told me they've "done jujutsu" who studied for maybe three to six months and learned just enough to get hurt trying to use it after they let their skills "rust" for awhile.

As for "studying alone", there are hundreds of ways to study jujutsu without a class environment, but eventually it does take some practice with partners. Most jujutsu grips can be practiced on yourself, and unlike kata, it's clear if you're "on the point" because you can feel it yourself. As for "kata", you can practice the motions of all the techniques without a "partner's hand" and improve on your technique.

If you liked what you did in the jujutsu class, by all means sign up for the next session, and possibly join the university jujutsu club if they have one. If not, talk to the instructor and find out if there is a club you can practice in, or if you can "audit" the courses he's teaching and just keep coming to class as a helper. That alone would give you plenty of practice.

I started out in a YMCA "club" on Monday nights when I was in college. I'm still active in jujutsu and have been out of college for over 40 years, so it's an "engaging practice". Like swimming, you can wet your toes, or you can jump in and swim... it's up to you how much you want to know, learn, and teach.

When we tried to pay our sensei, he told us "you pay me by 'passing it on' to someone else". You can't do that by "dabbling" in the arts. We have way too many people who do "a little of this and a little of that", but never focus on anything enough to learn it well.

I would suggest you "get in or get out", but don't "maybe so"... Of course, that's just my opinion.

P.S. My thanks to the Dutch people for looking after my father's grave. He is in the military cemetary there at Margraten.

Posted by: Ives

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/18/06 04:24 AM

Wristtwister, thanks for your response.
As you can read in the original post, I'm not continuing in the course this year because of a full agenda. I have classes overlap, so that's a bad idea to join. Hopefully next year I can join again.
I really enjoyed the introduction to the art.
I know that practicing for three or four months doesn't get you any near understanding. That's what I learnt form karate and kobudo. In which I first would like to have a more solid base.

But the point you make is real clear to me. In or out, that's how it works in MA.


Quote:

...As for "studying alone", there are hundreds of ways to study jujutsu without a class environment, but eventually it does take some practice with partners. Most jujutsu grips can be practiced on yourself, and unlike kata, it's clear if you're "on the point" because you can feel it yourself. As for "kata", you can practice the motions of all the techniques without a "partner's hand" and improve on your technique.

If you liked what you did in the jujutsu class, by all means sign up for the next session, and possibly join the university jujutsu club if they have one. If not, talk to the instructor and find out if there is a club you can practice in, or if you can "audit" the courses he's teaching and just keep coming to class as a helper. That alone would give you plenty of practice.

...

I would suggest you "get in or get out", but don't "maybe so"... Of course, that's just my opinion.



About solo practice I think that will work fine. Going through motions and techniques. Which I allready/still do.

Then again, I only had a taste, not even a real bite of jiujitsu

Quote:

P.S. My thanks to the Dutch people for looking after my father's grave. He is in the military cemetary there at Margraten.



We are honoured to do so. Thank you.
People like him will be remembered and honoured around here.
Posted by: McSensei

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/18/06 06:58 PM

I started JJ soon after reaching Shodan in a Japanese style of karate and I appreciate where you are coming from as to the striking aspects of both.
It seemed to me that karate was all about "Ikken hissatsu" whereas the JJ was just using them as a distraction.
It took a while for me to get my head around this and since I changed to Okinawan karate it has all started to fit together.
My new instructor has pointed out that the one punch KO is actually quite rare and therefore not really practical to spend all your time training for it. Even so he has pointed out that the two different applications are just two points on the same continuum.
After all, a punch is just a punch, right?
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/18/06 08:44 PM

Quote:

My new instructor has pointed out that the one punch KO is actually quite rare. ... After all, a punch is just a punch, right?



Hmmmm... I'm hoping that's a joke and not a "level of instruction" rhetorical question.

Nishiyama Sensei told me at a luncheon meeting in the 1980's that he felt that karate teachers didn't spend the kind of time it took to teach students how to "make power" in their punches. If your punch isn't a "knockout punch", then it needs work. "Ikken Hisatsu" isn't just a rhetorical aspect of karate, but a foundational basis of the development of the techniques. "To kill with one stroke" was a mandatory development for empty handed fighters during the era of the Samurai, because if they didn't kill their adversary, they were the next in line for a dirt nap.

If your teacher doesn't think that a punch is developed for "one hit, one life", then you need to step up the level of understanding in your dojo. A "good" punch will develop over 900 pounds of force delivery at impact, which is about like dropping the front of a Volkswagen on the point of contact, so if you don't expect to knock someone out with that, you're fighting tougher guys than I've met over my martial arts life (which I doubt).

That's not to demean you or your instructor, but taking that out of the equation is exactly why you don't expect to knock someone out with your punch. If your mechanics and technique are correct, you can expect to call the coroner anytime you hit somebody in a self defense situation... that's also why we study "pressure points", so you know where to "apply" your technique.

Yes, it is specialized training.
Yes, it requires detailed study and makiwara work.
Yes, you need to "measure" your punch and its development.

I am currently writing a book that is about a year away from publication, but I'll give you this from it...

Quote:

THE MEASURE OF KARATE SKILL IS FOUND IN THE PUNCH.
HIGHLY DEVELOPED, AND CONTAINING ALL OF ITS ELEMENTAL
QUALITIES, IT IS THE BAROMETER OF A PLAYER’S SKILL.

APPLIED AT THE PROPER ANGLE OF ATTACK, IT IS INDEFENSIBLE.




Posted by: MattJ

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/19/06 05:38 PM

Quote by wristtwister -

Quote:

If your teacher doesn't think that a punch is developed for "one hit, one life", then you need to step up the level of understanding in your dojo. A "good" punch will develop over 900 pounds of force delivery at impact, which is about like dropping the front of a Volkswagen on the point of contact, so if you don't expect to knock someone out with that, you're fighting tougher guys than I've met over my martial arts life (which I doubt).




Food for thought -

http://www.fightingarts.com/ubbthreads/showflat.php/Cat/0/Number/15786375/an/0/page/23#15786375
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/19/06 08:39 PM

Matt, I don't dispute any of that. What I would point out, however, is that karate isn't just punching with a flat fist like a boxer. There are hand shapes and fist configurations that create all kinds of differing areas that create much higher "pounds per square inch" in strikes and punches. The boxer's 700+ pounds of force applied across the two front knuckles would yield much higher forces, and the "dragon fist" applied at specific points on the head would yield much different results from simply boxing with someone and hitting them with a boxer's fist.

I'm sure we could argue the intensity of striking, but whatever the forces generated, there are other factors as well that come in to play. The meridian points and their liability to project injury, whether or not the attack is to a nerve center, blood supply, etc. or if it is applied with vibration or "absorbing" punching techniques. Whether or not the target is struck with a bone surface or "padded" fleshy surface... The list could go on and on.

The statistical data is always impressive and depending on whose numbers you use, you'll get different kinds of results, especially if you can apply the differing angles of attack to the equation, for the body has muscles and tendons that create "peaks and valleys" where an attack at one angle would be tolerable, and an attack at a different angle would be fatal.

I didn't see any data on that in the list, but I would love to see that graphically displayed and tested. It would keep your calculators smokin'...

Posted by: MattJ

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/19/06 09:12 PM

Quote by wristtwister -

Quote:

The statistical data is always impressive and depending on whose numbers you use, you'll get different kinds of results



Touche.
Posted by: McSensei

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/20/06 11:38 AM

"The statistical data is always impressive and depending on whose numbers you use, you'll get different kinds of results"

What I would imagine is that the test results show punching power under ideal circumstances.
I doubt very much that you would get the same results in the middle of a full on fight, without rules.
This leads to my (and my instructors) argument that to train for the KO punch to the exclusion of all else as short sighted and foolish. Which brings me to...

"Nishiyama Sensei told me at a luncheon meeting in the 1980's that he felt that karate teachers didn't spend the kind of time it took to teach students how to "make power" in their punches. If your punch isn't a "knockout punch", then it needs work. "Ikken Hisatsu" isn't just a rhetorical aspect of karate, but a foundational basis of the development of the techniques. "To kill with one stroke" was a mandatory development for empty handed fighters during the era of the Samurai, because if they didn't kill their adversary, they were the next in line for a dirt nap."

With all due respect to Nishiyama Sensei, I believe that this is a very "Japanised" view of karate and very much depends on how you view the history of the art.
You mention about the use of empty hands against samurai, well, I've got to disagree. I do not believe for one minute that the Okinawan art of Te has anything to do with fighting Samurai.

"that's also why we study "pressure points", so you know where to "apply" your technique."

This I agree with, although from my own practice I have found that PPs do not require the kinds of force that you are stating. In fact to try and strike PPs with full force actually hinders the accuracy of the strike and is therefore counter productive. Less power and the use of one knuckle (and similar) strikes would be the order of the day.

As I said in my first post, I think that the different applications are just two points on the same continuum.
Both have their uses and both should be trained for.
Just not one to the exclusion of the other.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/20/06 07:03 PM

Quote:

"To kill with one stroke" was a mandatory development for empty handed fighters during the era of the Samurai, because if they didn't kill their adversary, they were the next in line for a dirt nap."




Didn't mean to imply they were just fighting against Samurai... "ERA of the Samurai," is what I said, which involved all kinds of people carrying swords, spears, knives and the like. There were also many others that wore armors of different kinds, and that too dictated "accurate" strikes and pressure point hits necessary to stay alive.

I won't disagree with you that Nishiyama Sensei is "Japanese" in his thinking, but he's also about the top technical expert in karate from Funakoshi's line; so I wouldn't discount his concern or his expectations for what karate should develop.

Posted by: Ives

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/21/06 03:16 PM

Guys thanks for the input. But maybe it is better to continue this topic on striking you are focussing on in a separate post( in the martial arts talk perhaps). I'd love to comment in such a thread.
This one however was intended to hear about other peoples experiences in jiujitsu.
Posted by: wristtwister

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/21/06 06:40 PM

I've often tried to make my students think of jujutsu as "what's next" when they're doing karate. Once you block a punch or side step a kick, what do you do? Of course you can hit the opponent, but that's not "control", so where do you take your next movements to control the situation?

Atemi IS a great deal of jujutsu, so it's in its proper place here, but as far as experiences go, anyone training in karate should be doing jujutsu as well, if for no other reason to be able to expand their bunkai in kata. As a self defense art, it encompasses most of the others, and many of them are derivitives of different types of jujutsu styles.

Whether its called jujutsu, jujitsu, chin na, or whatever "ryu" you want to call it, there's a "taste of jujutsu" in almost any art you study, so when your schedule frees up some time, go ahead and jump back in... there's plenty to learn and lots of places to start.

Posted by: McSensei

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/21/06 06:52 PM

WT,

I'm glad we finally reached a point on which we can agree.
The best thing I ever did to improve my understanding of kata bunkai was join a jujutsu club.

Most of what I had learned still had a kind of misty shroud over it until I went to watch a JJJ class.
Kata applications were literally pouring forth from every corner of the dojo and I could not wait to get started.

Ives,
Get in there and train, my good man. It will be the making of you as a karateka.

Sounds kinda odd though doesn't it?
Go to a JJJ class to get a better understanding of karate.
Posted by: Ives

Re: A taste of Jiu Jitsu* - 04/22/06 06:13 AM

"Get in there and train, my good man. It will be the making of you as a karateka.

Sounds kinda odd though doesn't it?
Go to a JJJ class to get a better understanding of karate."

It does sound odd, but I see what you mean!