Posted by: WaTah
JJ - Bjj - 03/05/06 05:28 PM
I really want to learn BJJ, but I cant find any schools of it where I live ( Omaha NE) I do know of a Jiu Jitsu place. I was wondering what the main differences of JJ and BJJ are.
JJ - Bjj
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/05/06 05:44 PM
It certainly depends on the school.
BJJ is broken down into three distinct areas of focus:
Sport
Vale Tudo/ MMA
Self Defense
The curriculum of a good BJJ class will include all three in varying degrees, based on what the instructor likes or believes is important. The one common factor you will find in nearly every BJJ class is that there will be a heavy sparring component, probably almost every class. Techniques are taught in a free environment and not kept in a strict belt requirement structure. Testing and promotion is usually very informal.
Classes in BJJ are very informal when compared to a given traditional JJ class.
Traditional JJ can be a mixed bag. There are classes that include grappling, karate type striking (as opposed to boxing), pressure points, self defense escapes, etc. A traditional class will likely have a strong emphasis on discipline and tradition. Techniques are broken down by belt level and there is formal testing on technique and terminology.
BJJ is broken down into three distinct areas of focus:
Sport
Vale Tudo/ MMA
Self Defense
The curriculum of a good BJJ class will include all three in varying degrees, based on what the instructor likes or believes is important. The one common factor you will find in nearly every BJJ class is that there will be a heavy sparring component, probably almost every class. Techniques are taught in a free environment and not kept in a strict belt requirement structure. Testing and promotion is usually very informal.
Classes in BJJ are very informal when compared to a given traditional JJ class.
Traditional JJ can be a mixed bag. There are classes that include grappling, karate type striking (as opposed to boxing), pressure points, self defense escapes, etc. A traditional class will likely have a strong emphasis on discipline and tradition. Techniques are broken down by belt level and there is formal testing on technique and terminology.
Posted by: OneInchPunchMaster
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/05/06 06:12 PM
What fletch1 said. BJJ concentrates more on ground work, JJJ concentrates more on everything. In my BJJ class, we concentrate mostly on stand up self defence techniques. When it comes to techniques, BJJ and JJJ are pretty much similiar; They both use locks. BJJ uses very deep locks also, whilst JJJ uses small locks like wrist locks. In stand up techniques, you'll find BJJ and JJJ similiar as i said, though when it comes to ground work, BJJ is superior.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/05/06 08:32 PM
As I train predominantly in BJJ, I try to remain as objective as possible in these discussion.
The differences in the two are not so much in their technical points as in their training methodologies. Traditional JJ widely uses static kata or waza in it's training with limited opportunities for full contact alive sparring. Schools differ so this is not a slam, just a personal observation.
BJJ on the other hand, resticts the use of static reps to the instructional phase of training and trains the rest of the time with a progression of resistance. This can be live drills for takedowns, escapes, finishes, etc. or start to finish matches, etc.
I should add that the Self Defense component of BJJ has been largely unchanged over the years and appears very similar to Traditioanl JJ and Judo's Goshin Jitsu. What has evolved is the Sport and Vale Tudo approaches to the art. Changes that for the most part have been made based on competition and fight results.
The interesting thing is that BJJ continues to grow. What is in a given school's curriculum today maight not have been 2 years ago. It is in constant refinement.
The differences in the two are not so much in their technical points as in their training methodologies. Traditional JJ widely uses static kata or waza in it's training with limited opportunities for full contact alive sparring. Schools differ so this is not a slam, just a personal observation.
BJJ on the other hand, resticts the use of static reps to the instructional phase of training and trains the rest of the time with a progression of resistance. This can be live drills for takedowns, escapes, finishes, etc. or start to finish matches, etc.
I should add that the Self Defense component of BJJ has been largely unchanged over the years and appears very similar to Traditioanl JJ and Judo's Goshin Jitsu. What has evolved is the Sport and Vale Tudo approaches to the art. Changes that for the most part have been made based on competition and fight results.
The interesting thing is that BJJ continues to grow. What is in a given school's curriculum today maight not have been 2 years ago. It is in constant refinement.
Posted by: OneInchPunchMaster
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/06/06 03:29 PM
BJJ will keep getting refined as Helio Gracie is still alive. Seeing Helio is the main man behind Gracie Jiu Jitsu, or in this case, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu seeing that anyone who has a lineage under him is not allowed to name his/her school Gracie Jiu Jitsu, Only the Gracies can trademark it.Anyway, seeing Helio is still alive, the art will keep being refined by him seeing hes the founder of GJJ/BJJ.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/06/06 05:35 PM
hmmmmm...all due respect to Helio but he is not the final word on BJJ. The refinements have been and are continuing to be made by people like the late Carlson Gracie Sr, Carlos Gracie Jr and all of their students and fighters who put it on the line over and over, win or lose.
Posted by: OneInchPunchMaster
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/06/06 09:49 PM
True, but it was still known as the traditional brazilian jiu jitsu. Helio adapted it so that a smaller guy could take down a bigger guy with ease. Also, Helio concentrates on Self defence techniques by working with body mechanics.Anyones instructor whos lineage is NOT under Helio is not teaching Gracie Jiu Jitsu, they are teaching traditional sport Jiu Jitsu. Those with the lineage under Helio ARE teaching Gracie Jiu Jitsu.For e.g., my instructors is directly under Helio Gracie. Helio Gracie > Flavio Behring > Sylvio Behring > Justin Bruckmann(my instructor). The lineage is short, thus legitamate. We learn 1-2 self defence techniques every class. Sometimes we learn ground techniques in a class rather than stand up self defence techniques, but the average class holds 1-2 self defence techniques. Traditional Sport BJJ will hold ground work, and only sometimes stand up self defence techniques are taught. For one of my friends classes, he only learns a self defence technique once a month in his BJJ class. Its all about what type of BJJ is being taught.
Sure, Carlson Gracie refined BJJ, but he refined traditional BJJ. GJJ is something that focuses on another aspect, and Helio created GJJ.Its abit like ITF style TKD and WTF style TKD. ITF focuses on sport and the olympics whilst WTF doesnt. Same with BJJ; BJJ is the sport version, GJJ is the later non-sport version.
Sure, Carlson Gracie refined BJJ, but he refined traditional BJJ. GJJ is something that focuses on another aspect, and Helio created GJJ.Its abit like ITF style TKD and WTF style TKD. ITF focuses on sport and the olympics whilst WTF doesnt. Same with BJJ; BJJ is the sport version, GJJ is the later non-sport version.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/06/06 10:00 PM
Quote:
I should add that the Self Defense component of BJJ has been largely unchanged over the years and appears very similar to Traditioanl JJ and Judo's Goshin Jitsu. What has evolved is the Sport and Vale Tudo approaches to the art. Changes that for the most part have been made based on competition and fight results.
The reasons for these changes and "staying the same" are pretty easily diffused... the arts that are changing are normally adjusting to "the rules". Like anything done for sport, the players learn to use the rules (and the boundaries) for scoring purposes. Self defense tactics don't change much because normally they are focused on the single objective of protecting the player from an attacker.
Over the past 40+ years, I've practiced karate, judo, jujitsu, and aikido, but I can't ever remember doing it as a sport. Even when I was active in judo, I used the randori as self defense training when warming up the local judo team for competitions. They always wanted me to compete because I scored a lot of throws in randori, but I wasn't interested in trophies as much as getting it right... and when you train with the objective to protect yourself, rather than put a trophy in the case, you have a lot more desire to do just that.
Quote:
The interesting thing is that BJJ continues to grow.
Funny, but that's the same thing they said in the 1960's when judo was the "big dog" and karate was just being introduced. I don't see any real martial art "taking off" like that again, because the public now is keyed in on violence, and would rather see a soccer brawl than a good match of any kind of legitimate competition.
My own personal feeling is that it will hit a plateau and stay about where it is from now on, just like most other martial arts have. Whether it gets bigger than those that are the "big dogs" now will depend on the organizations and publicity they can gin up.
Posted by: OneInchPunchMaster
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/06/06 11:36 PM
No one said BJJ is about winning trophies and competitions. Sure, its used in MMA, but so is Muay Thai, Judo, Wrestling,Kickboxing and other arts.Im sure anyone teaching the "sport" version of BJJ or Judo would adjust to the rules.
Posted by: wristtwister
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/07/06 09:43 PM
I never said BJJ was about trophies... just that that's where the judo clubs were focused at the time I was playing against them. The focus makes a difference, however, because few if any of those guys are still doing any kind of martial arts, and I'm still around and going strong for 43 years.
Since you make the point that BJJ isn't about trophies, I can say that most of the people who train in BJJ in our dojo are into mixed martial arts and are only doing BJJ because it's what they need to be competitive in the "baker's dozen brawling competition" (MMA). I kid them all the time that they don't get promotions in BJJ, they get space cleared off for another tatoo.
Since you make the point that BJJ isn't about trophies, I can say that most of the people who train in BJJ in our dojo are into mixed martial arts and are only doing BJJ because it's what they need to be competitive in the "baker's dozen brawling competition" (MMA). I kid them all the time that they don't get promotions in BJJ, they get space cleared off for another tatoo.
Posted by: paradoxbox
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/07/06 11:43 PM
OOk enough with the thread derailment..
Legitimate Japanese jujutsu will usually include weapons training (generally short and long swords, occasionally other stuff like spears, staff, and other traditional edo period weapons), kyusho (weak points), a very large variety of joint locks, standing and ground grappling, chokes of various kinds and reiho (proper manners). Also taught at ALL Japanese jujutsu dojo are proper breakfalls, which are unfortunately severely neglected in many other arts.
Most Japanese jujutsu is taught standing up and generally relies on a combination of hitting a weak point and breaking balance simultaneously to defeat an attacker. Make no mistake, you could be 3 feet tall and facing a 6foot tall opponent, if you know your jujutsu properly you will be able to defeat your opponent without too much trouble.
BJJ is geared towards fighting while on the ground. The workouts tend to be a little more strenuous than most Japanese jujutsu places. I've found in my area that the practicioners are usually of very good quality but often have poor manners. Maybe they should get a Japanese guy in there for some reiho training
Either way you can't really go wrong but take a close look at why you are going to learn jujutsu. Brazilian jujutsu is very good for ground fighting by itself, but if you want it purely for self defense it's important to learn some standup along with it, or do mixed martial arts so you aren't relying on your ground game alone.
Legitimate Japanese jujutsu will usually include weapons training (generally short and long swords, occasionally other stuff like spears, staff, and other traditional edo period weapons), kyusho (weak points), a very large variety of joint locks, standing and ground grappling, chokes of various kinds and reiho (proper manners). Also taught at ALL Japanese jujutsu dojo are proper breakfalls, which are unfortunately severely neglected in many other arts.
Most Japanese jujutsu is taught standing up and generally relies on a combination of hitting a weak point and breaking balance simultaneously to defeat an attacker. Make no mistake, you could be 3 feet tall and facing a 6foot tall opponent, if you know your jujutsu properly you will be able to defeat your opponent without too much trouble.
BJJ is geared towards fighting while on the ground. The workouts tend to be a little more strenuous than most Japanese jujutsu places. I've found in my area that the practicioners are usually of very good quality but often have poor manners. Maybe they should get a Japanese guy in there for some reiho training
Either way you can't really go wrong but take a close look at why you are going to learn jujutsu. Brazilian jujutsu is very good for ground fighting by itself, but if you want it purely for self defense it's important to learn some standup along with it, or do mixed martial arts so you aren't relying on your ground game alone.
Posted by: OneInchPunchMaster
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/08/06 03:37 PM
What you said there is 100% legit. For Self Defence, its definately JJJ. Even though BJJ covers Self defence, it doesnt cover it as clearly as JJJ seeing JJJ is all ABOUT self defence.Anyway, lets end the topic here before it gets out of hand.
Posted by: Fletch1
Re: JJ - Bjj - 03/08/06 07:16 PM
Good call. 