Throwing Big Guys
Posted by: BigRod
Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 08:58 AM
There's a guy I train with whose easily 6'1, 220lbs. He's got at least 40lbs on me. Not only do I have to throw him, I've been forced to use O-Goshi, which #1, I don't like, and #2, I don't think is a good choice against someone his size.
In the long run I guess this situation will benefit me, but for now it's frustrating! I can't get off a good throw, and this is when he's 100% compliant, not resisting me in the least! I could never pull this off in sparring.
Oh well...
Posted by: butterfly
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 12:04 PM
BR,
I guess it's like everything else in life. Practice.
Hey, I suck at Judo. But I guess that's the benefit of a lot of uchi-kome. All I can say is that your skills are better than mine, and I can't throw someone my size....
-B
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 12:24 PM
Before you reap the leg make sure his shoulders are turned.
A cheat is break his balance at the ankle and shoulder, like trip then reap the leg, it makes it harder for him to break his fall because it throws his timing off. He thinking side break fall, then it up and over backwards!!!
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 12:28 PM
For the non-judo folks like myself:
http://judoinfo.com/images/animations/blue/ogoshi.htmGod I love that site.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 12:46 PM
Get the kuzushi and the timing right and you should have no problems.
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 12:47 PM
Quote:
Before you reap the leg make sure his shoulders are turned.
A cheat is break his balance at the ankle and shoulder, like trip then reap the leg, it makes it harder for him to break his fall because it throws his timing off. He thinking side break fall, then it up and over backwards!!!
I didn't know O-Goshi had a leg reap...
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 12:47 PM
Thanks for the webpage Matt. Everybody always uses these big words that I've never heard of but I figured we did most of them ... and I was right. Thanks
Posted by: Neko456
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 01:15 PM
I thought he said Osoto-gari not hip throw, taller people show be easier to throw in a ogashi, I'd think.
My bad.
Posted by: GojuRyuboy13
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 01:52 PM
how tall are you compared to him. Just wondering, but taller people are easier to get ogoshi and some other hip throws on because it's easier to get under their center of balance.
The shorter people in the class I couldn't ever get that throw in, I also don't really like it. It's alright to add in a combo or something. But I am not that good either.
Just make sure you get all the elements, good kuzushi, proper position, and it should all come togethor.
Posted by: thisguy
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 01:57 PM
hey there big rod, im roughly the same size as the person that you are working with. the thing to do is be sure to get him off balance and keep him off balance. this hip through should be easier for you once you understand the dynamics of it(the most duh statement i have made)
what i mean is that once you get him off balance, make sure that he is staying off balance through out the rest of your throw. as you reach behind his back, get below his hips, then with both arms, pull him onto you(kinda) as you feel his weight on you, use your egs to lift him up and then follow through with yor through.
the biggest thing i notice with smaller people trying to through me, is that they don't follow through with the through. ideally it should all be one motion. if you do your throw in a step by step pattern, it will be harder to do.
ps: we big guys don't like to be thrown
so cheat if you have to
Posted by: Dereck
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 05:21 PM
Quote:
hey there big rod, im roughly the same size as the person that you are working with.
Maybe the thread should be renamed "THROWING THIS GUY".
Posted by: RobNus
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 05:33 PM
you could try using (what we call in our dojo) the falling tree method. try to position yourself slightly away from your uke. then pull him onto you, instead of you coming to him. this way, he will bend forward over your hip as you pull him, giving him forward (and now downward) momentum, making the throw a (relative) doddle.
this is how we teach it in jujutsu anyway, and it works for a lot of our smaller students. try it, make it work for yourself. dunno if itll work in judo, never tried it on a judo proponent.
Posted by: BigRod
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 06:00 PM
Quote:
...pull him onto you, instead of you coming to him
Yeah, that's the way I'm being taught, it's just tough (for me) to throw people his size. Like I said, we're not even sparring, this is just sheer repetition of the mechanics of the throw.
Thanks for the advice guys!
Posted by: thisguy
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 09:53 PM
sure.
Posted by: Paranormalma
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/28/05 10:36 PM
Ditto to what RobNus said...
Push your uke and have him resist, not only will the throw be much easier-but it will be more realistic as well.
You can also try different ways of positioning your hands, if your Sensei will allow slight variations. Sometimes a few inches' change can add a lot to a throw...finding what works for you is important.
Good luck, I'm sure you'll get used to throwing this guy soon
Posted by: Leo_E_49
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/29/05 12:23 PM
Quote:
you could try using (what we call in our dojo) the falling tree method. try to position yourself slightly away from your uke. then pull him onto you, instead of you coming to him. this way, he will bend forward over your hip as you pull him, giving him forward (and now downward) momentum, making the throw a (relative) doddle.
this is how we teach it in jujutsu anyway, and it works for a lot of our smaller students. try it, make it work for yourself. dunno if itll work in judo, never tried it on a judo proponent.
Judo guys in my experience train kuzushi a little more formally than most JJ guys and therefore, it takes a lot of trickery and cunning to get this to work properly on a competent opponent. It is do-able however, and probably the best thing to do.
Posted by: Paranormalma
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/29/05 12:49 PM
True, but I don't think he was talking about randori, as his uke isn't resisting.
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/29/05 06:32 PM
If it is excecuted properly, his weight should make no difference. Judo is set in such a way that size makes little difference, if excecuted correctly. Perhaps you need to get the big guy mental block alot of people have, he may be big but I bet his blood is still red.
I advise to check your body alignment, ask him to resist a little, scream when you throw him. And get down to your basics, analyze it and see where you are going wrong.
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: BigRod
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/30/05 08:00 AM
Quote:
If it is excecuted properly, his weight should make no difference
Right...
I know I have a lot of progress to make in terms of tehnique and everything else, but you aren't honestly saying that weight and size makes no difference. It does.
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/30/05 03:51 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If it is excecuted properly, his weight should make no difference
Right...
I know I have a lot of progress to make in terms of tehnique and everything else, but you aren't honestly saying that weight and size makes no difference. It does.
20kg, no this shouldnt make a difference, true in the extreme lets say some one who is 50kg trying to throw someone who is 110 kg true. But remember that you are not the impliment of lifting (that is gravity force, a forward falling motion), you are the fulcrum, just a device to help the process. You must be the catalyst. The weight diffence between you and this person you mention should make no difference.
This is why I said to check your alignment, I think this would solve your problem. Heres a little experiment for you go to the gym and squat his body weight, you will be able to do it once at least, is that not all you need!
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: RobNus
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/30/05 05:38 PM
Quote:
Right...
I know I have a lot of progress to make in terms of tehnique and everything else, but you aren't honestly saying that weight and size makes no difference. It does.
if he is resisting, sure his wieght matters. but if he is compliant (as you said), then it shouldn't matter a sparrows fart. once you actually try some of the things suggested here, and try to make em work for you, then you can move on to trying to throw yer mate while he is resisting.
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/30/05 06:42 PM
Quote:
if he is resisting, sure his wieght matters.
If he is resisting it is easy to set him off balance, by pushing and pulling.....so again if the difference is not great (twice your body weight), then it wont make a difference.
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: RobNus
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/31/05 02:36 PM
Quote:
If he is resisting it is easy to set him off balance, by pushing and pulling.....so again if the difference is not great (twice your body weight), then it wont make a difference.
*bows respectfully*
Easy to say, but i know myself that its not always so. i am a big guy (6ft, 220 lbs), and if i do not want to be thrown, i will use my weight to make it very hard for someone to throw me. someone who does aikido, tai chi or the like will know how to carry their weight so as to make themselves "immoveable".
if you can keep him off balance, however, then he should be easy enough to throw. but only if you have practice. as with everything, i spose...
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/31/05 04:55 PM
This is were your training applies, If you train for it, in stages, using push pull techniques, it is very possible!!
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: MattJ
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/31/05 05:46 PM
Quote:
If it is excecuted properly, his weight should make no difference.
*rolls eyes*
Says the 130kg weightlifter. 
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/31/05 07:36 PM
Quote:
Quote:
If it is excecuted properly, his weight should make no difference.
*rolls eyes*
Says the 130kg weightlifter.
LOL, What are you trying to say matt!!!!!! 
seriously, there is alot more to throwing a person than simply lining up and bending. There are small things you can do to help your opponent along. While I wouldnt recommend anything other than leg sweeps for taking on the 130kg weightlifters, unless of course if you are a 140kg weightlifter than go for gold my friend. Learn your proper technique, learn you alignment, learn how to offset his balance, getting them off balance and in the air is 80% of the battle! Once the are there all you need to do is slam them home!
By the way Matt, i started when I was 9, there were lots of times that I was the smaller guy, my sensei told me that it didnt make a lick of difference, I believed him then, I believe it now.... I never had a problem, and the small guys in our dojo dont either! Its mental as much as physical!
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: NEAS
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/31/05 07:38 PM
o- soto- gari perhaps? perhaps if one would like to research a Japanese gentle man named MASAHIKO KIMURA 5 foot 6 inches
who weighed in at app 85kg but threw and won against top fighters 100kg plus and some what taller ? including (so I read) one of the Gracies? perhaps scroll through the judo web pages and try to find others with the same fighting methods?(research) Most top fighters studied other fighters who were good ???????(study) i spend hours training and studying??and with the internet it is a lot easier for people today???? perhaps research brings results??(study)
does one think???????http://
judoinfo.com/animate.htm how to perhaps?????
http://judoinfo.com/kimura.htm this gentle man perhaps??????? research, study analise practice automate and add to ones technique then automate in differant scenarios,,,, sparr apply further research study analise automate practice keep going man keep going...
Posted by: Paranormalma
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 10/31/05 09:21 PM
If your instructor asked you to throw Ogoshi, you would use Osoto Gari?
Maybe just a misread though...
Posted by: RobNus
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 04:24 AM
Quote:
This is were your training applies, If you train for it, in stages, using push pull techniques, it is very possible!!
*bows respectfully*
but this guy cant throw his partner in regular training, when he is compliant. he wrote on here to ask for ways to do it, not to have people tell him that his weight should make no difference, etc etc. his partner's weight matters now, because he cant seem to throw him properly. but once he has the technique down to a tee, his weight as you said, should not matter.
*reciprocates respectful bow*
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 05:19 AM
I said in my first post that he should check his technique, not having seen him excecute, I cant advise him, but he should check his alignment and entry into the throw, I found that this is where I faced most of my problems.
*reciprocates the reciprocate respectful bow*
Posted by: BigRod
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 05:55 AM
Actually, when I posted this, I was venting, not really asking for advice.
I know my technique needs work. On the rare occassions I get everything just right, I can throw him, but I still feel the weight difference between him and someone smaller - I know I have a 220lbs+ guy on my hip/back when I throw him. And remember, I said I have to use O-Goshi. If it were my choice, I would use some other throw.
But let's look at the size thing...
In sparring, where I have the chance to off-balance him, with proper technique, yes, it's possible I can throw him.
Weight matters,it's a fact. That's why they have weight classes. Yes, weight classes, even in Judo.
Since we're in a Judo forum, let's talk about Judo Randori. You have a guy 40lbs heavier than you, and taller. Bigger than you typically means stronger than you. He's going to use his size and strength against you. He will push you around, he will use his strength to unbalance YOU. A smart player will anyway. Your technique must be perfect. An equally or better skilled opponent with a 40lbs+ advantage leaves you no room for errors.
It's one thing to throw an untrained person with a weight advantage, another to throw a skilled person with a weight advantage. Maybe some of you are just that good that you can throw anyone, anytime.
As for using Kano or any of those greats as an example, you can't. They are the elite of the elite. They can do what most men can't.
If weight doesn't matter, why do we have weight classes? Not just in Judo, in all sports. Why? The answer simple, weight matters.
Posted by: RobNus
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 07:05 AM
well said.
*reciprocates the reciprocate of the reciprocate respectful bow*
(...that could go on for a while...)
Posted by: NEAS
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 08:29 AM
na na na na na na Seems like you dont want to win??????
Regards you decide that some men have it some men dont well!!!!!!!! Human all have the same amount of limbs,,,,well most any how. I have beaten stronger faster even more skilled opponents in the past and either they trained harder and beat me or they give up? MA is, or so i study about but often dont see put into practice, about building a spirit if you get knocked down youget back up.Easier said than done but if you want it you will get it. How ??? find a weakness. Mental or physical and then have the answer to that weakness. How again??? study some one who is sort of or has been in that position.Seems like your looking for exscuses why you cant win????A lighter oppenent can beat a heavier opponent,
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 08:47 AM
Seems like you don't understand him at all.
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 08:53 AM
Quote:
Actually, when I posted this, I was venting, not really asking for advice.
I still say to check your alignment and entry, it will help! whether you want my advise or not here it is!! Please never give up trying that is what MA is all about!!
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: NEAS
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 09:11 AM
Bigger does not mean stronger,,, I sparr with heavier men than me. Ok here is an example. Where i weight train is an 125 kg body weight ex bench press champion, 230 kg bench press.and yes he can fight.Could i beat him in a legal no holds barred fight?!!!!!!answer yes. He knows it, 70% chance of beating him. Could I beat him at judo?
50% chance yes i could. How ?Judo is all about putting some one on their back agreed? It would be with a foot sweep/throw of some description and i would have to be very fast on my feet. That means i would have to automate the techniques specific for that fight. I would have to have some indication what he can and cant do. How would I know this? here is a question for you? can you throw right handed and left handed? I can,,, works wonders on people,but i aint going on ego trips,when i fight or sparr i need to know whats right and what needs work. The needing work bit is never ending.
Another thing that springs to mind is ? When i was first training judo i trained with loads of brown and black belts.
There was no teaching methods i would now approve of.It was some basic throws kind of lots of randori. As a yellow belt i beat one or two black belts on my fitness and fighting spirit. Yep i got beat lots of time by others. I had tuition at a later date from a women and a very good black belt. I train my self and have done for years. Others train with me partly to aquire the techniques i have made usable for me. So perhaps draw what you can from what i have written.
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 09:13 AM
Quote:
Its mental as much as physical!
*bows respectfully*
Thinking size doesn't matter, is that the mental part?
It's strange that you bow alot yet think size doesn't matter...I'd have thought anyone with a bend over reflex would be familiar with how size can overpower.
Posted by: JoelM
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 09:22 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Seems like you don't understand him at all.
I still say to check your alignment and entry, it will help! whether you want my advise or not here it is!! Please never give up trying that is what MA is all about!!
*bows respectfully*
Seems like you don't understand me at all. I was not talking to you.
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 10:00 AM
Quote:
Thinking size doesn't matter, is that the mental part?
Believing that size doesnt matter is the mental part. As I said in my earlier post I have been on both ends of the spectrum, the small guy and the big guy, I threw the big guys like the small guys throw me now.
Judo was not originally designed to defend yourself against only the same sized opponents, if a larger opponent came at you, you could engage. Judo is first and formost a SD MA!
Judokas dont think "I cant win hes to big", they step up and take him to the ground. If they thought this way, you and I would not be practising Judo because it would have died out. Seriously who attacks people bigger than them? How many more people attack smaller opponents? Can you see where I am heading! Your assailant in real life situation will almost always be bigger than you! I think I am safe from 50kg men (I am a 130kg). What about women Judoka, they would be attacked by men, almost always the men would be bigger and stronger....is Judo not practical for them then? Mind over matter. If your sensei doesnt teach this, maybe you should find another Dojo!
Quote:
It's strange that you bow alot yet think size doesn't matter
What does my bowing have to do with my opinion????
Quote:
I'd have thought anyone with a bend over reflex would be familiar with how size can overpower.
What do you mean by this? Please explain yourself, I dont like the way you have brought this across, I will be forced to report you to admin if you do not explain this!
*turns from kintana*
*bows respectfully to everyone else*
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 10:30 AM
ok, I'll explain.
bowing:
you've been told several times that your constant bowing is annoying, since you have not heeded this feedback, it is considered disrespectful....therefore your bowing is a fair taget of ridicule.
smaller vs. larger argument:
The topic has been covered ad-nauseum. do a search. If you live in a world with the same laws of physics (not sure about krypton), then a big guy will be harder to throw than a small guy and dramatically affects technique when comparring the two extremes. To say there is 'no difference' is naive. and once again, subject to a chuckle.
I'll make a deal with you...you try lightening up and I'll try ignoring your posts....fair?
Admin: please don't put me in the cell with the big guy!
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 11:14 AM
Quote:
ok, I'll explain.
bowing:
you've been told several times that your constant bowing is annoying, since you have not heeded this feedback, it is considered disrespectful....therefore your bowing is a fair taget of ridicule.
If you say so, just ignore it! No one will impose their will on me, I will bow when and where I choose, like it or lump it, I will not stop it! Maybe you could stop being so childish about it! Even after fighting my worst enemy, I would bow respectfully!
You still have not clarified the section of your post that I enquired about, if you do not do so in your next post I will have no choice but to go to admin!!
Quote:
smaller vs. larger argument:
The topic has been covered ad-nauseum. do a search. If you live in a world with the same laws of physics, then a big guy will be harder to throw than a small guy and dramatically affects technique when comparring the two extremes. To say there is 'no difference' is naive. and once again, subject to a chuckle.
Where in my posts did I say it was easy, hell no its not easy, it is however possible, but only with training and proper technique and form! Did you read all of my posts, or just the bits that fit these attacks! Do you agree with my staements about Judo at its core Quote:
Judo was not originally designed to defend yourself against only the same sized opponents, if a larger opponent came at you, you could engage. Judo is first and formost a SD MA!
Judokas dont think "I cant win hes to big", they step up and take him to the ground. If they thought this way, you and I would not be practising Judo because it would have died out. Seriously who attacks people bigger than them? How many more people attack smaller opponents? Can you see where I am heading! Your assailant in real life situation will almost always be bigger than you! I think I am safe from 50kg men (I am a 130kg). What about women Judoka, they would be attacked by men, almost always the men would be bigger and stronger....is Judo not practical for them then?
Can you answer these questions! With more than a yes no type answer!
Quote:
I'll make a deal with you...you try lighening up and I'll try ignoring your posts....fair?
It doesnt bother me, what you do! once more do not try to impose your will on me!
Quote:
Admin: please don't put me in the cell with the big guy!
What cell??? I will not tolerate any further personal attacks from you, and intend on reporting everyone of them!
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 11:42 AM
last try. explaination of the comment that went over your head while you were bowing: There is a running joke in the US, that if a little guy is put into a big guy's jail cell, it will often result in the little guy 'bowing' to the big guys every demand. If you still don't get it, then by all means, ask the admin to explain it to you. (make sure you include my full comment...it's funnier that way)
Judo, as it is taught in the vast majority of dojos today, is taught as sport. sports have weight classes for a reason. But since you know it's true intent, SD application and the advantages of being from krypton, then size is not a factor in your Art, so I stand corrected.
Posted by: h2whoa
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 11:56 AM
Quote:
last try. explaination of the comment that went over your head while you were bowing: There is a running joke in the US, that if a little guy is put into a big guy's jail cell, it will often result in the little guy 'bowing' to the big guys every demand. If you still don't get it, then by all means, ask the admin to explain it to you. (make sure you include my full comment...it's funnier that way)
Some sort of homosexual ribbing! That is the only thing I am gathering! That is offensive! Are you implying then that I am a homosexual, that goes against my catholic sensibilities, and is very immature!!
Quote:
Judo, as it is taught in the vast majority of dojos today, is taught as sport. sports have weight classes for a reason.
Then what you learn in a vast majority of Dojos, is merely wrestling. If you learn no SD you are only learning a small portion of what the art truly is, like learning bunkai with every second movement of the Kata, next youll be telling me the majority of dojos dont practice Judo Kata!
Quote:
But since you know it's true intent, SD application and the advantages of being from krypton, then size is not a factor in your Art, so I stand corrected.
Again with the sarcasm, very immature!! Not wanting to answer my questions, maybe its because your answers wouldnt suit your arguments!!
I am now contacting admin, and i choose to ignore you!
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 12:02 PM
whatever dude. knock yourself out.
Posted by: oldman
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 01:22 PM
Gentlemen,
We can do better than this. I will be in contact with both of you.
Posted by: Kintama
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/01/05 02:12 PM
I started the trouble. sorry for trashing this thread people.
*bows respectfully*
Posted by: RobNus
Re: Throwing Big Guys - 11/02/05 06:34 AM
jeez lads, where is the love? all this bickering is pointless. i do agree that most judo is taught as sport, but there are some schools that teach it as SD. the weight classes aspect of the sport judo is to make everything "fair" and sportsmanlike.
but the SD aspect has to make you ready for everything. its still not easy to throw big guys, but it can be done. just takes practice.
this has gotten all out of hand. it was a nice little discussion about throwing giants, and turned into this [censored] fight.