Judo Dislocation Necklocks

Posted by: BigRod

Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 09:47 AM

This is an interesting page. The techniques shown are basically the can opener (from the mount), the guillotene from standing and the gaurd, a gaurd pass, and a variation of kesa-gatame (scarf hold).

The author describes these techniques as "very DANGEROUS and should be taught only from the grade of Brown Belt."

Okay....whatever.

These things are all taught from day one in BJJ and sub wrestling. I've been doing them forever and have yet to see any serious or even minor injuries from these moves.

Anyway, heres the link:

http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm
Posted by: Leo_E_49

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 09:51 AM

These appear to be dislocations rather than chokes. I can understand how they would be dangerous.
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 10:57 AM

I suppose if you have someone of significant size and strength do this to a smaller person you have potential for injury, but the worst I've ever come away with is muscle soreness, and all of those things have been done to me many times over.

I think you need to excercise some caution, like making sure your partner doesn't have any neck/spine injuries before you attempt this stuff, but the techniques aren't that dangerous.

I think it's strange how this author recommends not teaching this to anyone below a brown belt, but BJJ/MMA schools teach this to beginners all the time.

TOMOE-HISHIGI is nothing more than a gaurd pass and is refered to as "stacking"

TATE-HISHIGI, GYAKU-HISHIGI are guillotene chokes, not dislocations.

KUBI-HISHIGI, OSAE-HISHIGI are neck cranks.

Quite frankly, once you develop a small degree of flexibility in your neck, these moves are nothing but annoying. Minus the chokes, that is.
Posted by: schanne

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 11:03 AM

Bigrod, your so use to doing this stuff have you forgotten how dangerous it really is? what about the kids and dopes that just scan over this material and decide they want to try these techniques the next time all the guys get together in the back yard. Yeah, someone could get real hurt, the author is correct. There is a house near my dojo where the kids have a "WWF Style" ring set up in their back yard and they emulate the moves that they see on TV, many times I have stopped and watched them do their flying body slams and pile drivers, (they look pretty good too). Now I'm almost positive that they never had any pros show them any of these moves except for what they have seen on videos and TV. It's only a matter of time until someone is hurt, although they look like they are having one hell of a time playing pro wrestlers!
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 01:51 PM

Shanne, those kids are stupid and there are a lot of them out there. They are going to get hurt and they will only have themselves to get blamed. They can't blame WWE or TV or movies ... they chose to do that stuff so you get what you get.

The techniques on that linked page, many of us have done these and have had no serious injuries. The worst I can think is a neck crank that I received. And in training you tap when you are in discomfort. If some kids want to do this without trained supervision ... sure they could get hurt ... but then again they get what they deserve.

It's no difference then riding a motorcycle. The thing is dangerous as hell ... and I know as I ride a crotch rocket. But I took training from qualified instructors and plan to take an advanced course next year. I could have been stupid like many of these kids who get them and have no clue ... and then they end up crashing or dead. Yes it could happen to me too ... but I know the limits ... they don't necessarily ... and I'll be more inclined to "tap out" before I feel I'm endangered.
Posted by: schanne

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 01:58 PM

Wonder where the parents are, I have to laugh out loud because the the one day when I stopped to watch them they had a ladder on the mat they were jumping from and one kid looked like he was doing a belly flop one the other boy, yeah they hit each other with chairs too!!??
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 02:40 PM

Crazy stuff. When I was a kid I mimiced The Lone Ranger or Spiderman ... but I'm not shooting people or thinking I can spin webs or jump from building to building. Must be all of the perservatives or chemicals in the food we eat now that makes them crazy.
Posted by: Mtripp

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/10/05 07:28 PM

You need to remember that the BJJ/GJJ folks also ignore years of research from the Judo and Sambo world and say it is fine for kids as young as eight to choke and armlock one another.

I have a personal story I can tell, and those who know me have heard it. Bottom line, it ends up with one broken neck and two suicides.

I continue to speak out agaist these things, but you will never get them to listen, they think they know it all...
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/11/05 08:16 AM

Okay...

I want to clarify somethings about my statements.

When I posted this, I was thinking only of adults training with other adults, in a classroom setting.

I whole-heartedly agree that nearly all of the techniques on that page should not be taught to young kids. As for people who learn/see something and then go out and monkey around as described earlier, well, we can't control that.

Futhermore, I am not saying that there is no chance of injury when performing those techniques, just that IMO it is not likely you will be injured performing those techniques. I base that statement on my experiences, and from discussions with others. Myself, I'm more concerned about being injured during the course of a throw, not from anything on that link.

Has someone ever been injured from any of those techniques? I'm sure they have; MTripp stated he has a personal experience. However, the question is, how common are serious injuries from those techniques? I don't know if anyone is keeping stats, but I'm willing to guess those numbers would be incredibly low compared to the number of times those techniques are used.

Let's face it, ALL martial arts techniques are dangerous, and this includes boxing. Many of them COULD cause serious or permenant inury. So many dangerous techniques are used all the time, not only in schools across the world, but in the UFC, PRIDE, Boxing, Muay Thai, Kickboxing etc, etc, but those sort of accidents are very few.

But then again, what do I know? I have no facts and I can only speak from my very limited experiences.
Posted by: Tant01

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/11/05 12:13 PM

Quote:

This is an interesting page. ....

The author describes these techniques as "very DANGEROUS and should be taught only from the grade of Brown Belt."

Okay....whatever.

.....
Anyway, heres the link:

http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm




Hyper extending the CV in your neck or over rotating can cause instant death. Crompression fractures are also very dangerous but don't take MY word for it...


Between 6,000 and 10,000 Americans sustain spinal cord injuries every year (1). Motor vehicle accidents and falls cause about 55% to 75% of these, while sports and recreational activities account for a significant percentage of the remainder (2)


1. Young JE, Cantu RC: Life-threatening emergencies, in Cantu RC, Micheli LJ (eds): American College of Sports Medicine's Guidelines for the Team Physician. Philadelphia, Lea & Febiger, 1991, pp 143-150
2. Little NE: In case of a broken neck. Emerg Med 1989;21(9):22-32
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/11/05 01:48 PM

I'm with BigRod on this. Trained adults okay ... others ... bad. As a trained adult you are in the understanding that injury can occur and you accept that. A trained adult will tap out if they feel they are in danger thus avoiding any serious injury ... again ... trained to do so.

For myself, beside a neck crank doing these moves I've never been hurt ... but full grappling from stand up I have and am currently. I went to the ground with another opponent and we went hard. My neck and shoulder hit and now I have to crushed vertabrea in my neck which has caused a nerve to be pinched that makes my right arm/hand vibrate all of the time like a tends machine. Many times my right hand will go numb. Also my right chest is affected. This makes my weight lifting and martial arts training very limited. I'm scheduled for an MRI on Sept. 27, 2005 and then to see a neurologist ... and that can be 5 to 19 months ... not including surgery which I've been told it most likely.

I accepted the fact that I could get injuried ... this was an unfortunate part of my training and I blame nobody. I could have got this injury just wrestling around with friends ... but without training it may have been worse. Trained adults accept the fact that injuries can occur and we move on and continue training. Heck during sparring I could break your leg by accident ... or mine ... but it won't stop me.

Again ... trained adults ... good ... untrained persons and children ... bad.
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/12/05 09:25 AM

I was thrown on my head and shoulder once as well, it was nothing nice. Luckily it wasn't serious. My whole arm tingled for about 1 minute, and my finger tips tingled for at least a month after that. I just had a few bruised nerves.

That's what I get for training takedowns on a carpeted floor I guess.
Posted by: thegnome

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/12/05 09:43 AM

There's a reason why these are not allowed in shiai. Now that I'm doing BJJ I'm still a bit wary of them. I botched a hadaka jime in a tournament once and wound up getting a penalty (chui, I think) and lots of really bad looks from the crowd. I would have much rather sunk the choke and got the Ippon, but I just got too exited and screwed up. The guy was a friend of mine as well which just made it worse. Fortunately he didn't get hurt but it just made me think about how dangerous those are when going full speed.
Posted by: Dereck

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/12/05 11:17 AM

Quote:

I was thrown on my head and shoulder once as well, it was nothing nice. Luckily it wasn't serious. My whole arm tingled for about 1 minute, and my finger tips tingled for at least a month after that. I just had a few bruised nerves.

That's what I get for training takedowns on a carpeted floor I guess.



Exact thing happened to me BigRod with the immediate tingling and numbness. Then I things got better ... or so I thought ... and then things took a nose dive for the worse. I think continued grappling just made it worse. Was feeling good and then woke up one morning at 2:00 and was in severe pain. Thought first was my rotator cuff as had problems years before with it. Didn't realize that the pain in my shoulder/arm/hand was actually a pinched nerve. GP couldn't figure this out but a sports doctor did.
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/12/05 05:16 PM

gnome,

is the choke you were talking about? If it is, I don't care for this either, as it can damage the windpipe.

http://www.judo-for-all.com/Theory/Theory-pages/Shime/Hadaka-Jime.htm
Posted by: thegnome

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/13/05 09:33 PM

Yep, I saw the opening and rushed in way to fast and hard. He was a buddy of mine so I felt like crap (although I would have felt just as bad if he wasn't). Nobody got hurt, but I can see how it could happen.
Posted by: hugo

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/14/05 02:24 AM

Quote:

This is an interesting page. The techniques shown are basically the can opener (from the mount), the guillotene from standing and the gaurd, a gaurd pass, and a variation of kesa-gatame (scarf hold).

The author describes these techniques as "very DANGEROUS and should be taught only from the grade of Brown Belt."

Okay....whatever.

These things are all taught from day one in BJJ and sub wrestling. I've been doing them forever and have yet to see any serious or even minor injuries from these moves.

Anyway, heres the link:

http://judoinfo.com/kubiwaza.htm

Evidently your club is not centered around traditional principles and the general principle of martial arts then. The whole aim is to create an enviroment where learners can learn the arts and at the same time be in a safe enviroment. Teaching these techniaques from "day 1" is stupid and irrational.
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/14/05 03:42 PM

According to you, that is.

The schools I attended didn't literally start teaching these things on your first day, but they had no artificial limitations on when you can learn a technique.

I've noticed only tradional MA schools (Judo included) engage in the practice of "you can't learn this move until...".

In MMA schools/submission wrestling and even BJJ schools, a student might be taught any technique at any time.
Posted by: Chanters

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/19/05 03:19 AM

Quote:

I've noticed only tradional MA schools (Judo included) engage in the practice of "you can't learn this move until...".




In other words don't run until you can walk. This is for obvious safety reasons. You need to learn the basic principles in order to build up and be able to execute the more advanced techniques sufficiently.
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/22/05 02:29 PM

Chanters, I agree with you regarding safety and building a solid foundation of technique.

BUT, different schools/styles operate differently, sometimes completely opposite of each other. They each have their own idea of what "advanced" techniques are and when to teach them.

For example, In BJJ you typically only learn leg locks at Blue Belt and above, for whatever reason. In Sub Wrestling, within a few weeks or a month you'll be learning leg locks. Same thing with the Guillotene in Judo. It wasn't taught to me at all in my Judo school during the entire 3 months I was there. In BJJ I was taught and using it within a month of starting.

Another example. The karate school I used to attend, my instructor said you can't learn anything about swords until you get to Black Belt. But yet I could've gone and joined a local Kendo club and started learning everything I wanted to know about swords from day one.

My point of all this is these "limitations" are somewhat artificial, created by individual instructors or some tradition being carried on for whatever reason.

Once I started attending a variety of different schools, I noticed these sorts of things. What one instructor said I wasn't ready for, another instructor had no problem teaching me. What you can learn and when is completely subjective.
Posted by: Chanters

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/23/05 03:22 AM

Quote:

Same thing with the Guillotene in Judo. It wasn't taught to me at all in my Judo school during the entire 3 months I was there.



You studied judo for a whole 3 months and they didn't show you the guillotene? I'm not a grappler but 3 months is nothing in learning an art and you can't expect to scrape the surface in judo in 3 months. My boyfriend has been practicing judo for a total of about 4 years and hasn't learned all the techniques. They try numerous techniques and the ones they feel most comfortable with they continually develop and work on. He's does a mean osoto gari!

In aikido the lower grades like myself will practice whatever technique we're asked to do. Sometimes the dan grades are told to do a more advanced variation or a different, more advanced technique. I watch them and know if I were to try that I could seriously risk injuring either myself or uke. I need to grasp the basics of certain techniques before I can go round throwing people using more advanced ones, for my own and others safety.

Quote:

Another example. The karate school I used to attend, my instructor said you can't learn anything about swords until you get to Black Belt. But yet I could've gone and joined a local Kendo club and started learning everything I wanted to know about swords from day one.



That maybe because kendo is a sword art and it would be pretty much useless if they didn't let you practice with a sword.

Quote:

My point of all this is these "limitations" are somewhat artificial, created by individual instructors or some tradition being carried on for whatever reason.



I don't think it's necessarily tradition or that they are limitations. If you were an instructor and you personally believed that teaching someone who hadn't been practicing long a technique which could potentially harm or injure someone, would you feel comfortable going ahead and teaching them?

Quote:

What you can learn and when is completely subjective.


I agree. But again the instructors have the knowledge and experience in teaching people their art and in most cases know what you are capable of.

Sorry, I feel I've hijacked this thread as we've drifted from the necklock discussion. BigRod I kind of agree and appreciate with what you're saying but I have experienced different situations to what you have said and feel I must defend my sensei's/instructors judgement because I know they are only acting to prevent possibly harm or injury and assisting me in building up my foundation to which I will soon be able to learn the more advanced techniques.
Posted by: BigRod

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 08/23/05 10:19 AM

Quote:

I'm not a grappler but 3 months is nothing in learning an art and you can't expect to scrape the surface in judo in 3 months



You zoomed in on the 3 months and not the point. Or perhaps I did a poor job of expressing my point. At any rate, Judo Ne-Waza apparently doesn't cover the Guillotene until much later in their syllabus. BJJ covers it immediately.

Why the difference? Safety? One could argue that, but BJJ people (and many others) train this technique all the time, without injury. This, IMO, places this situation into the arbitrary, subjective grey area that I mentioned before.

Same thing with my other example, the sword. In one style it's too dangerous to train the sword until you get to black belt, but I can go take Kendo immediately at a different school? Another Safety issue? No, not all. Just another case of an artificial limitation.

I've been in several arts, trained with many people, for a long time. I can identify the difference between legimate safety concerns and artificial limitations.

I hope you see what I'm getting at.
Posted by: Mtripp

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 10/02/05 07:25 PM

Well, all I can say, again, is those who worked with me at the spirit of the eagle camp for the "no-gi" sessions got the point that twisting the neck is serious stuff and has no place in randori or shiai. The risk is simply too great. They all got a few twinges, and let me know they got the point. Perhaps some of you will make your way to camp and I can show you what I mean.
Posted by: Chanters

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 10/03/05 09:05 AM

Quote:

twisting the neck is serious stuff



I just cringe at the thought!
Posted by: Mtripp

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 10/03/05 07:21 PM

More to the point of the question...

IMHO

NO choke that goes against the windpipe should be allowed in a sport. That is the context, sport. If you have technique, then get a choke that attacks the blood not the windpipe.

Now, MMA, with ADULTS, is another issue. I just feel you can get your submissions without risking the injury in a sporting event.

Now, let see how much stuff that stirs up.....
Posted by: Hoisan

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/02/06 05:43 PM

Never try a necklock without proper training! There was a guy who tried this once and actually tore his opponent's head of. We heard him yell out "watch my wicked neck scarf" and then there was a ripping sound followed by a brief scream. The opponent's head rolled across the mat, passing right by my foot. I still have nightmares about it.
Posted by: Taison

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/02/06 09:48 PM

*Sniff sniff*
I sense a troll nearby. . .

Ripping a person's head off? Bah! Have you been playing Mortal Kombat again?

I got an idea! Now let the mod/admin rip YOUR head off, here and now.

-Taison out
Posted by: Hoisan

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/06/06 12:20 PM

Quote:

*Sniff sniff*
I sense a troll nearby. . .

-Taison out



Post deleted-

First warning. Stay on topic and drop the insults.

Fletch1
Posted by: Taison

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/06/06 09:35 PM

Stay on topic dude.

It's near to impossible, possible, yes, but near to impossible to actually rip a man's head off. Ah, the neck, throat and all that area that joins the head with the body is quite a strong "part". You can twist it to break the neck and kill the person but I pulling somebody's head off with an upward force is quite difficult if you don't have inhuman power like that of a bear.

Have you ever seen anyone hanged before? Well, no many heads falls off do they? Now, have you ever seen anyone got beaheaded by the guillotine[the frence one]? Sometimes it takes 2-4 chops to get the head off. Ever read about the English executions during the medieval ages where they chop the head off with an axe? Took 1-5 chops to get off.

The neck is a very strong part of the body and it will require more than just technique to rip someone's head off. If it was as easy as you said in your 'troll' post, wouldn't many UFC fighters be a head less these days?

My suggestion troll, get a life.

Back to topic.
Those dislocation neck locks, I learnt them the 3rd day of class. I don't see them as too dangerous but, in the hands of a bunch of teenagers without supervision. Ouch!

-Taison out
Posted by: andy4

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/07/06 07:51 AM

Hi big Rod.

I think the effects of any neck crank is down to comparisons.

Put on a standing arm lock.

Hold the wrist
Use the opposite palm on the opponnents elbow
It hurts.
Force them to the ground.

Put the same arm lock on.
Force them to the ground and then use the knee as a pushing force on the elbow its breakage time.

The same with neck cranks. It depends where the weight /force is coming from.

Poss one of the reasons why techniques were hidden in Kata.

Shouldnt be taught to just anybody.
Posted by: andy4

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/07/06 09:05 AM

Just an after thought.

With regards to the dangers of showing un trained people.

The described techniques take practice and practice to perfect.

There are plenty of people who know of the techniques and can use them in a way.

How ever I have rolled/trained with a lot of grapplers.

With most of the grapplers(not all)the techniques could be countered .

Why? because they werent put on correctly.Not perfected.

With this in mind I dont thing someone will get the correct technique just by being shown. There fore its a diffucult question.

I suppose its a balance.
Posted by: MattJ

Re: Judo Dislocation Necklocks - 02/08/06 01:52 PM

Quote:

Chanters, I agree with you regarding safety and building a solid foundation of technique.

BUT, different schools/styles operate differently, sometimes completely opposite of each other. They each have their own idea of what "advanced" techniques are and when to teach them.

For example, In BJJ you typically only learn leg locks at Blue Belt and above, for whatever reason. In Sub Wrestling, within a few weeks or a month you'll be learning leg locks. Same thing with the Guillotene in Judo. It wasn't taught to me at all in my Judo school during the entire 3 months I was there. In BJJ I was taught and using it within a month of starting.

Another example. The karate school I used to attend, my instructor said you can't learn anything about swords until you get to Black Belt. But yet I could've gone and joined a local Kendo club and started learning everything I wanted to know about swords from day one.

My point of all this is these "limitations" are somewhat artificial, created by individual instructors or some tradition being carried on for whatever reason.

Once I started attending a variety of different schools, I noticed these sorts of things. What one instructor said I wasn't ready for, another instructor had no problem teaching me. What you can learn and when is completely subjective.



Well out, BR. This has been my experience as well.