kano...a master of jujutsu?

i was reading some history, and i think its interesting how everyone makes jigoro kano out to be such a master of jujutsu, in actuality before he opened the kodokan he only studied for 5 or 6 years, never with the same teacher for more than 2 years it seems.
he started studying tenjin shinyo ryu jujutsu with master hachinosuke fukuda in 1877. master fukuda died in 1879. at this time kano started studying the same art with masammoto iso, and master iso died in 1881. at this point kano switched styles and went to kito ryu under konen ikubo (sp)...in 1882 kano opened his first dojo. and from then until he opened the kodokan in 1882...thats less than six years of total training.
there are many stories of the kodokan defeating other jujutsu ryu in competition (under kano's rules even) in which the kodokan defeated most of them decisively...however the men who actually fought were people who were students of classical jujutsu ryuha...not necessarily "judo" practitioners as such...for example saigo shiro, was a daito ryu aikijujutsu master, and ultimately he could not decide between his ties to the traditional daito ryu, or the kodokan judo...so he gave up both and devoted himself to kyudo (archery)
so could it really be said that judo (a term used a LONG time before kano used it to describe jujutsu/thats why he called his "kodokan judo" and not just "judo") defeated jujutsu...or did jujutsu defeat jujutsu...and kano just happened to employ the best fighters?
do you think kano was the master everyone thinks he was? why? or why not? do you think he was just gifted? etc.



[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 10-25-2003).]

First, I want to express that everything I have read on this subject were off the internet, so the accuracy is not guaranteed. I have not studied the history of Judo in great detail...I just want to mention that if Kano did only study for 5 years....he still may very well have been a master. You mentioned one point: he was said to be gifted athletically. Another thing, even if he did study for only 5 years, traing then was much different than now...it's not like he trained 3 days a week for 2 hours a session...they had live in relationships, usually trained everyday for long periods of time, and took it much more seriously and as a priority than any person today. As far as his Judo defeating the jujutsu team, I have read that it was after the Kodokan was founded and they were Kodokan Judo students. Just what I have read about, not stating anything as fact.

i agree, even today you can learn alot in 5 yrs if you really apply yourself..but a "master"...there are things you can only learn from time in the arts and experience.
from what i have read about judo history and that tournament/contest...yes it was after kodokan opened, but at the beginning there was no "judo" kano hired different sensei from different ryu to teach at his dojo, and from what i was told...these were some of who actually fought...not really kano's students.
im not trying to say one way or the other...just looking for opinions.

I believe Kano's true gift was that of organizer and understanding how to teach.
He came up with a set curriculum for teaching judo. Modified jujitsu so it could safely be taught on college campus' and become a sport.The latter guaranteed judo's popularity.
My understanding was Kano established the Kodokan also as a way to preserve arts that were becoming extinct and as a central repository of martial arts knowledge.

Then again, I could be totaly mistaken.

on the contrary, i think you are right on, kano was just gifted, a fast learner, and his business was teaching, and organizing, and he put them to good use to help preserve fighting spirit of jujutsu, while making it safe for ALL to practice....and in doing so he raised the popularity of jujutsu as well.
having a good teacher is everything, if you cant understand something, then they put it in terms to make you understand, and thats what he was good at. he also stated that he chose the name judo to EMPHASIZE the concept of ju...as he didnt agree with some of the older masters interpretations of the principle of ju.

An excellent topic, kempo. I think from my point of view the most important thing to realize is that Judo is Jujutsu in so far as the techniques are concerned. Kano sensei didn't invent them he merely took the ones he wanted and used them to form his art. At the time he did so Japanese culture was undergoing a minor revolution and the old ways were coming to an end. Martial arts for martial purposes were no longer what the "people" wanted, the old military clases were dying out and samurai were turning to other activities, leaving the feudal period behind them.

Where Kano sensei's real genius lies is in the fact that he recognised and responded to this first, through his MA. Kano was first and foremost an educator and reformist. He realized jujutsu as it then stood could not survive. So he repackaged it and emphasised the benefits to the persons character that come from training in MA, Do as opposed to jutsu. This attracted a lot of prominant and skilled MA's from other, older ryuha and in turn gave credibility to the burgeoning art of Judo. It also, improtantly, allowed Kano to "cheat" during those famous competitions and use the skills of students such as Saigo to defeat other schools and help establish the kodokan as the dominant MA school of the period.

I don't think Kano sensei was an exceptional MA in the sense that Ueshiba sensei or Takeda sensei was, but he was innovative at a time when innovation was called for.

Budo

originally yes i think judo was jujutsu by another name, (jigoro didnt actually coin the term judo either, that is why he called his kodokan judo)
kano also deleted many of the more deadly techniques of jujutsu, making it safe to learn, but tried (and did) to preserve the principles involved. also the way judoka do their techniques are really quite different than "classical" jujutsu, even though i think most jujutsu schools are actually teaching judos versions of throws....in some ways i think judo's methods of throwing are better, in some ways i dont..for instance judo guys tend to throw people in a safe manner...sort of allowing them to breakfall, but in jujutsu many times there is no way to take the fall without injury....or at least its very difficult to do so(also the entire point of judo is to be safe, jujutsu is the opposite lol) there is also the issue of grabbing the gi...judo employs this idea much more than jujutsu, as jujutsu is (as you said) a combat art (percieved to no longer be necessary) and tries not to rely on the gi. and kano removed striking...so i can say that conceptually speaking judo is not jujutsu...maybe (again...conceptually) is PART of jujutsu. does that make any sense lol

Yes, I think that makes a lot of sense. I understand Kano wanted an art that could be practised at full force, and classical jujutsu couldn't be...unless you wanted to cripple your opponent. Certainly from a purely fighting point of view jujutsu has the edge over judo every time. Judo is, if you like, safe jujutsu. It is even safer now than even Kano wanted because it is a sport more than a MA. I think it a great shame that the combat side of judo has been watered down so much, but that is what most people want so that is what will contiunue to happen.

Budo

Guys, I agree of course that Kano changed it to be less dangerous when practiced full force, but it is still very dangerous with almost no modification. Judo is only safe if you decide to conotinue following through the throw as to soften the landing for your opponent, and he/she knows breakfalls. I could take almost any Judo throw and slam them (opponent) down onto the ground on their neck/head/shoulders/etc, especially to a person who can't breakfall. Obviously, I agree that Jujutsu is more actual fighting by its nature (jutsu), but a good Judoka can inflict as much pain as they want by taking away your breakfall.

i think you are right...judo can be quite dangerous! but i might disagree with what you said about judo being just as painful, jujutsu's throws can be very brutal...the point is to break bones!! try throwing someone...but keep ahold of their upper body, and let their legs and hips hit first...ouch.
making your opponent land in very awkward positions is the point, in aiki too...imagine those throws if the person didnt breakfall!!...they would have a broken wrist, shoulder...and ankles and possibley knees...try doing a hip throw hard and fast....accept you keep their upper torso near you (sort of like a fulcrum) which accelerates their feet faster...and when their legs feet etc hit the ground...just imagine what that would feel like...this is the idea in aikijujutsu and jujutsu....its not in judo, although with a lil change in focus [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG] [IMG]http://www.fightingarts.com/forums/ubb/biggrin.gif[/IMG]

[This message has been edited by kempo_jujitsu (edited 11-05-2003).]

Good points, lads. The thing that strikes me is that the throws in judo are more powerfull than the ones in most jujutsu styles. I would put this down to judo utilising all of uke's momentum to effect the throw. Many ju jutsu styles teach strike then throw, and whilst the strike is clearly combat effective it does have the disadvantage of stopping uke in his tracks as well.

A well executed judo throw would stop most people getting up again, even without a great deal of modification.

Budo

agreed.
but at least for me that strike is essential...feels more comfortable to me...a good insurance policy...when im reaching through to grab an arm to effect a throw...hell im goin through anyway..may as well smash some ribs on the way...thus their mind is no longer on attacking me or resisting me...boom hes thrown.
however if i dont hit him he is free to try to do alot of different things to me...and well since my back is to the opponent there may not be much i could do to stop him.
that is one of the first things i was taught...and was always stressed.
dont turn your back to your opponent...unless you distract him sufficiently with one or two strikes first...and then only long enough to throw him....lock him...whatever.
then again...your average joe should be no problem for either approach. i am just more comfortable with the strike added in.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by kempo_jujitsu:
i agree, even today you can learn alot in 5 yrs if you really apply yourself..but a "master"[/QUOTE]

It takes 5 years to qualify to become a General Practitioner (GP - Doctor). I would call a doctor a "Master" of what they do.

If you you trained 3 times a week, in 5 years you would probably get a black belt in Martial arts such as Karate, if you trained 3 times a day in the same art, I'm sure you would be a blackbelt a lot sooner.

if you take the hours instead of the years it would be about about 780 hours for a person training 3 times a week over 5 years.

Where as training for 3 hours a day for 5 years would be 5475 hours. So if you put it like this Kano could have trained for 30 of our Martial Arts years before he started Judo.

Obviously the above is not based as I have no idea how regularly Kano trained but you see my point.

Well, I guess you have to define the term "master".

At any rate, if you're training every day, possibly all day every day, it doesn't take forever to "master" an art, despite what some would have us believe.

Quote:

---

...however the men who actually fought were people who were students of classical jujutsu ryuha...not necessarily "judo" practitioners

---

That was the whole point of the competitions, to show that his Judo and way of training was superior. And it's only logical that they didn't compete against other Judo students, he was the only one teaching Judo, so how could they compete against other Judo students!?! And yes, I realize others used the term Judo, but I'm refering to Kodokan Judo, the art developed by Kano, which at the time was unique.


Also, Kano started training as a young boy, so he studied for far more than 5 years. I just posted a thread with a link to a very long article on the history of Kano and his Judo. It's still on the front page. Read it, lots of good stuff in it.